Re: [gothic-l] Re: Neo-gothic poem needs help
- Dear llama_nom (is that anything like a pan-Romance "pick a name?")
Good to have your help again. Somehow, I didn't feel that a 'tromen' was far enough East for Gothic. Also, the accusative 'mik draumeith' was logical and reminded me of the archaic NHG "mich duenkt" --methinks in English.
Cleasy & Vigfusson raise another topic: How does it conveniently happen that precisely those sections of Wulfila got lost? Coincidence? Methinks not. It's a conspiracy, that's what it is.
As to the use of "ibnassus" for plain, good shot! Treble twenty. Later in the poem, I contrast it with "hauhassus" for mountainous area. Also, we find that the vocabulary fairly lends itself to alliteration and Germanic meter (before we mix in the bodhran and pipes). The end rhyme is confined to modern English, although Cantilena had end rhyme, short as it was, and some feel that Gothic war chants probably did as well.
Second verse under construction:
I dreamt of Greuthung warrior-men
Like mice in great cat-claws
First caught, then freed, then caught again
Then slain against our walls.
Indeed, Fraujo Ranilo is one depressed aristocrat, unable to let go the dead: perhaps suffering from Amal retention.
llama_nom <600cell@...> wrote:
Hey there Arthur,
Another good bit of poetry there. In the words of Cleasy &
Vigfusson's Icelandic Dictionary: "Matth. i. and ii, and by a
singular mishap Matth. xxvii. 19, are lost in Ulf., so that we are
unable to say how he rendered the Gr. ONAR". Your reconstructions
look good to me though. In Icelandic, which usually agrees with
Gothic in such matters, the verb is impersonal in form, with an
accusative subject and object. So we might imagine a Gothic MIK
*DRAUMEIÞ "I dream", literally "it dreams me". The noun is
masculine in German, Icelandic and Old English. (Fredrik, all the
indications are that the noun is an a-stem in Germanic, thus OE
dream, ON draumr < Gmc. *draumaz. If it had been **draumjaz, we'd
expect the noun to be OE **drieme, ON **dreymir.)
RANILONS DRAUMS FRAUJONS.
> "I dreamt of raging borderlordsA literal version: Mik modagans draumida markafraujans, þizeei
> Whose wrath consumed the plains
> For ancient wrongs, hard-riding hordes
> Did burn, and burn again."
þwairhei waggam fraqam. In fairnjaize skaþize harjos
hardureidandans gabrannidedun jah aftra gabrannidedun.
An alliterative version, which isn't as good as your English
original... The letters in brackets refer to "Siever's five types",
the standard metrical patterns of old Germanic poetry.
Mik markafraujans (D) . modagans draumida (A)
þizeei þwairhei (A) . gaþars waggans (C);
harjos ushofun (A) . hardureidandans (D)
und frawaurhtim (C) . fairnjaim haurja (A),
fon jah aftra fon.
(...withered plains/fields/meadows. Hordes/hosts hard-riding
raised, in payment for ancient wrongs, bonfires, fire and fire
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- --- In firstname.lastname@example.org, Arthur Jones <arthurobin2002@y...>
> Dear llama_nom (is that anything like a pan-Romance "pick a name?")No, it's a Tibetan-Peruvian mix-up, a sort of dharmic Jeckel & Hyde
(Ogden Nash?: "one L a priest, two Ls a beast"). Originally tried
to be Lama Nom (after a name in a dream), but forgot my first
password. But if Yahoo Groups was a spaghetti western (and who says
it won't be one day?), then sure, I'd be that noted desperado [Me
Llamo] Nombre, "the man with no name AND a name".
> Also, the accusative 'mik draumeith' was logical and reminded meof the archaic NHG "mich duenkt" --methinks in English.
My rule of thumb is, never rely on logic when it comes to human
languages. Just look at what they do. The Gothic equivalent
of "methinks" takes a dative object as in Icelandic, e.g. Mt 6,7
þugkeiþ im "they think".
> Cleasy & Vigfusson raise another topic: How does it convenientlyhappen that precisely those sections of Wulfila got lost?
Coincidence? Methinks not. It's a conspiracy, that's what it is.
I was just impressed by the showing off. It may not know the
answer, but it knows where the answer WOULD HAVE BEEN. This in the
days before computer searches. That's a lot of bible reading,
> Second verse under construction:Mik Griutugge draumida gadrauhtins, swe mus in mikilaim katturampom
> I dreamt of Greuthung warrior-men
> Like mice in great cat-claws
> First caught, then freed, then caught again
> Then slain against our walls.
frumist gafahanans, þaþroh þan galausidans, þaþroh þan aftra
gafahanans, jah afslahanans wiþra (baurgs)waddjuns unsaros.
> Amal retention.Boh!
- On 31.08.2005, at 01:05, Arthur Jones wrote:
> Also, the accusative 'mik draumeith' was logical and reminded me ofOn the note of Gothic 'to dream'. No, I can't find an attested form
> the archaic NHG "mich duenkt" --methinks in English.
either in the Gothic corpus. However, next to _*draum-, draugm-_
consider derivatives of PGerm. _*sweƀnaz_ (swebnaz_). In the OldEngl.
poem 'Dream of the Rood' we find the expression "...swefna ... hwaet
me gemaette", thus, a dream 'that met me'. So Arthur might, perhaps,
as well consider using something like _*swibns_ as 'dream'. As for
impersonal expressions like 'methinks/ mich dünkt', it should be
noted that in (archaizing) NHGerman it's 'mir träumt' with dative,
not accusative. In Icelandic it's the accusative e.g. 'mik dreymdi
draum'. Languages are, of course, where the term applies -strictu
sensu- logical. Otherwise, they wouldn't work. However, I don't see
how the accusative is necessarily more 'logical' than the dative.
Germanic languages feature a certain kind of 'impersonal'
construction with rather complex underlying linguistic structures
(such as agentivity, focus etc.). There is a good deal of oscilation
between the use of accusative and dative in such cases. However, it
doesn't seem to be arbitrary but, at least to my sensitivity as a
native speaker of German, there are subtle differences in meaning.
Roughly speaking, the accusative indicates a more active involvement
of the logical subject. Personally, although it's 'mir träumt' in
German, I'd go for an accusative as well.
- Good suggestion, David. Gmc. *swebna- (cognate with Gk. hupnos) is
neuter in OE, but masculine in ON, OS and OHG. Means both "sleep"
and "dream". Often plural in OE.
SYNTAX in ON. http://www.lexis.hi.is/corpus/leit.pl?
er þér svefns "thou dreamest", "you´re dreaming"
SYNTAX in OE.
ic geseah on swefne "I saw in a dream"; ic geseah swefn "I saw a
dream"; for ðære gesihðe ðe he on ðæm swefne geseah "for that vision
which he saw in the dreams"; him wearþ on slæpe swefen ætywed "he
was shown a vision in his sleep"; þa stod him sum mon æt þurh
swefn "then some man stood by him in his dream"; Hi slepon
swæfnum "they slept with dreams" (dormierunt somnum); oðer swefen
hine mætte "another dream came to him".
swefnian, 1. with acc. of dreamer "to appear to someone in a dream";
2. with nom. of dreamer "to dream". WHAT CASE IS THE DREAM?
(ge)mætan (long æ), "to dream", impersonal with dat. or acc. of
dreamer AND ACC. OF DREAM, e.g. swa his man-drihten gemæted
wearþ "as his lord had dreamed". Origin of this verb unknown; no
cognates according to the Oxford English Dictionary. Not the same
as metan "meet" (Go. (ga)motjan). The Gothic form, if it existed,
would be *metjan.
*draugm- is based on an idea of Kluge, who suggested the word could
be related to ON draugr, an undead being, and German
Trug "deception". But there is no sign of /g/ in the attested forms.
Things our Gothic Ranilo fraujo, might say:
Ik in swibna siun . gasahv ubils.
Mis swibn warþ . þanei saizlep ataugida.
Mik militonde þar . gametida hari
swe mus malanans . in mikilaim rampom,
gakrutodans . kattiwe haiþjos.
Frumist Griutuggos . gafahanans wesun,
galausidans aftra, . aftra gafahanans,
afslahanans þan wiþra . waddjuns unsaros.
- --- In email@example.com, David Kiltz <derdron@g...> wrote:
> Germanic languages feature a certain kind of 'impersonal'
> construction with rather complex underlying linguistic structures
> (such as agentivity, focus etc.). There is a good deal of
> between the use of accusative and dative in such cases. However, itinvolvement
> doesn't seem to be arbitrary but, at least to my sensitivity as a
> native speaker of German, there are subtle differences in meaning.
> Roughly speaking, the accusative indicates a more active
> of the logical subject. Personally, although it's 'mir trÃ¤umt' inIn Modern Icelandic there's a frowned-upon tendency
> German, I'd go for an accusative as well.
(called 'þágufallssýki' "dative sickness") to use the dative with some
verbs that traditionally took an accusative subject. Especially where
there are synonyms or near synonyms that do traditionally have a
dative subject. Maybe the dative is favoured because it's the more
common oblique subject.
Interesting comment about accusative indicating a more active
involvement. Possible exception: verbs to do with suffering pain or
deprivation. In Icelandic: hunger, thirst, sickness, ticklishness,
lack, want, desire. In Gothic: hunger, thirst, care/concern.
Icelandic: mér er kald, NHG mir ist (es) kalt "I´m cold" (i.e. I feel
cold); but with a more serious affliction, Icelandic: mig
kell/kelur "I freeze, get frostbitten".
- Correction: mér er kalt.
--- In firstname.lastname@example.org, "llama_nom" <600cell@o...> wrote:
> Icelandic: mér er kald,
- Thank you for your enlightening remarks. Yes, indeed _(ge)mætan_ is
distinct from OE _metan_. My bad. The latter is clearly a derivative
of _*(ga-)môt-_ 'to find room', or directly the cognate of MoE
_moot_. _*(ga-)môt- seems to ultimately derive from PIE _*med-_ 'to
measure (for), care, look after'. Maybe, _mætan_ belongs in the same
group. There is a lengthened grade derivative Greek _mêdeô_ 'ponder,
think out, decide'. Or it's derived from _*meh1-_ with a dental
suffix, which would also explain the long vowel. Maybe, a dream was
thought to be 'measured out, apportioned' to the dreamer. This is, of
course, very speculative.
As for _draugm-_, I never was very happy with the connection to the
root _*dhreugh-_ 'deceive' etc. However, other connection don't seem
On 04.09.2005, at 15:43, llama_nom wrote:
> (ge)mætan (long æ), "to dream", impersonal with dat. or acc. of
> dreamer AND ACC. OF DREAM, e.g. swa his man-drihten gemæted
> wearþ "as his lord had dreamed". Origin of this verb unknown; no
> cognates according to the Oxford English Dictionary. Not the same
> as metan "meet" (Go. (ga)motjan). The Gothic form, if it existed,
> would be *metjan.
> *draugm- is based on an idea of Kluge, who suggested the word could
> be related to ON draugr, an undead being, and German
> Trug "deception". But there is no sign of /g/ in the attested forms.