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Re: [gothic-l] Re: Neo-gothic poem needs help

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  • Arthur Jones
    Dear llama_nom (is that anything like a pan-Romance pick a name? ) Good to have your help again. Somehow, I didn t feel that a tromen was far enough East
    Message 1 of 12 , Aug 30, 2005
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      Dear llama_nom (is that anything like a pan-Romance "pick a name?")

      Good to have your help again. Somehow, I didn't feel that a 'tromen' was far enough East for Gothic. Also, the accusative 'mik draumeith' was logical and reminded me of the archaic NHG "mich duenkt" --methinks in English.

      Cleasy & Vigfusson raise another topic: How does it conveniently happen that precisely those sections of Wulfila got lost? Coincidence? Methinks not. It's a conspiracy, that's what it is.

      As to the use of "ibnassus" for plain, good shot! Treble twenty. Later in the poem, I contrast it with "hauhassus" for mountainous area. Also, we find that the vocabulary fairly lends itself to alliteration and Germanic meter (before we mix in the bodhran and pipes). The end rhyme is confined to modern English, although Cantilena had end rhyme, short as it was, and some feel that Gothic war chants probably did as well.

      Second verse under construction:

      I dreamt of Greuthung warrior-men
      Like mice in great cat-claws
      First caught, then freed, then caught again
      Then slain against our walls.

      Indeed, Fraujo Ranilo is one depressed aristocrat, unable to let go the dead: perhaps suffering from Amal retention.

      Airungaireiks
      arthurobin2002@...

      llama_nom <600cell@...> wrote:

      Hey there Arthur,

      Another good bit of poetry there. In the words of Cleasy &
      Vigfusson's Icelandic Dictionary: "Matth. i. and ii, and by a
      singular mishap Matth. xxvii. 19, are lost in Ulf., so that we are
      unable to say how he rendered the Gr. ONAR". Your reconstructions
      look good to me though. In Icelandic, which usually agrees with
      Gothic in such matters, the verb is impersonal in form, with an
      accusative subject and object. So we might imagine a Gothic MIK
      *DRAUMEIÞ "I dream", literally "it dreams me". The noun is
      masculine in German, Icelandic and Old English. (Fredrik, all the
      indications are that the noun is an a-stem in Germanic, thus OE
      dream, ON draumr < Gmc. *draumaz. If it had been **draumjaz, we'd
      expect the noun to be OE **drieme, ON **dreymir.)

      RANILONS DRAUMS FRAUJONS.

      > "I dreamt of raging borderlords
      > Whose wrath consumed the plains
      > For ancient wrongs, hard-riding hordes
      > Did burn, and burn again."

      A literal version: Mik modagans draumida markafraujans, þizeei
      þwairhei waggam fraqam. In fairnjaize skaþize harjos
      hardureidandans gabrannidedun jah aftra gabrannidedun.

      An alliterative version, which isn't as good as your English
      original... The letters in brackets refer to "Siever's five types",
      the standard metrical patterns of old Germanic poetry.

      Mik markafraujans (D) . modagans draumida (A)
      þizeei þwairhei (A) . gaþars waggans (C);
      harjos ushofun (A) . hardureidandans (D)
      und frawaurhtim (C) . fairnjaim haurja (A),
      fon jah aftra fon.

      (...withered plains/fields/meadows. Hordes/hosts hard-riding
      raised, in payment for ancient wrongs, bonfires, fire and fire
      again.)

      LLama Nom




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    • llama_nom
      ... No, it s a Tibetan-Peruvian mix-up, a sort of dharmic Jeckel & Hyde (Ogden Nash?: one L a priest, two Ls a beast ). Originally tried to be Lama Nom
      Message 2 of 12 , Sep 3, 2005
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        --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Arthur Jones <arthurobin2002@y...>
        wrote:
        > Dear llama_nom (is that anything like a pan-Romance "pick a name?")


        No, it's a Tibetan-Peruvian mix-up, a sort of dharmic Jeckel & Hyde
        (Ogden Nash?: "one L a priest, two Ls a beast"). Originally tried
        to be Lama Nom (after a name in a dream), but forgot my first
        password. But if Yahoo Groups was a spaghetti western (and who says
        it won't be one day?), then sure, I'd be that noted desperado [Me
        Llamo] Nombre, "the man with no name AND a name".



        > Also, the accusative 'mik draumeith' was logical and reminded me
        of the archaic NHG "mich duenkt" --methinks in English.



        My rule of thumb is, never rely on logic when it comes to human
        languages. Just look at what they do. The Gothic equivalent
        of "methinks" takes a dative object as in Icelandic, e.g. Mt 6,7
        þugkeiþ im "they think".



        > Cleasy & Vigfusson raise another topic: How does it conveniently
        happen that precisely those sections of Wulfila got lost?
        Coincidence? Methinks not. It's a conspiracy, that's what it is.



        I was just impressed by the showing off. It may not know the
        answer, but it knows where the answer WOULD HAVE BEEN. This in the
        days before computer searches. That's a lot of bible reading,
        methinks.



        > Second verse under construction:
        >
        > I dreamt of Greuthung warrior-men
        > Like mice in great cat-claws
        > First caught, then freed, then caught again
        > Then slain against our walls.


        Mik Griutugge draumida gadrauhtins, swe mus in mikilaim katturampom
        frumist gafahanans, þaþroh þan galausidans, þaþroh þan aftra
        gafahanans, jah afslahanans wiþra (baurgs)waddjuns unsaros.


        > Amal retention.


        Boh!

        Ll.N.
      • David Kiltz
        ... On the note of Gothic to dream . No, I can t find an attested form either in the Gothic corpus. However, next to _*draum-, draugm-_ consider derivatives
        Message 3 of 12 , Sep 3, 2005
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          On 31.08.2005, at 01:05, Arthur Jones wrote:

          > Also, the accusative 'mik draumeith' was logical and reminded me of
          > the archaic NHG "mich duenkt" --methinks in English.

          On the note of Gothic 'to dream'. No, I can't find an attested form
          either in the Gothic corpus. However, next to _*draum-, draugm-_
          consider derivatives of PGerm. _*sweƀnaz_ (swebnaz_). In the OldEngl.
          poem 'Dream of the Rood' we find the expression "...swefna ... hwaet
          me gemaette", thus, a dream 'that met me'. So Arthur might, perhaps,
          as well consider using something like _*swibns_ as 'dream'. As for
          impersonal expressions like 'methinks/ mich dünkt', it should be
          noted that in (archaizing) NHGerman it's 'mir träumt' with dative,
          not accusative. In Icelandic it's the accusative e.g. 'mik dreymdi
          draum'. Languages are, of course, where the term applies -strictu
          sensu- logical. Otherwise, they wouldn't work. However, I don't see
          how the accusative is necessarily more 'logical' than the dative.
          Germanic languages feature a certain kind of 'impersonal'
          construction with rather complex underlying linguistic structures
          (such as agentivity, focus etc.). There is a good deal of oscilation
          between the use of accusative and dative in such cases. However, it
          doesn't seem to be arbitrary but, at least to my sensitivity as a
          native speaker of German, there are subtle differences in meaning.
          Roughly speaking, the accusative indicates a more active involvement
          of the logical subject. Personally, although it's 'mir träumt' in
          German, I'd go for an accusative as well.

          -David
        • llama_nom
          Good suggestion, David. Gmc. *swebna- (cognate with Gk. hupnos) is neuter in OE, but masculine in ON, OS and OHG. Means both sleep and dream . Often
          Message 4 of 12 , Sep 4, 2005
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            Good suggestion, David. Gmc. *swebna- (cognate with Gk. hupnos) is
            neuter in OE, but masculine in ON, OS and OHG. Means both "sleep"
            and "dream". Often plural in OE.

            SYNTAX in ON. http://www.lexis.hi.is/corpus/leit.pl?
            lemma=svefn&ofl=&leita=1&flokkar=Fornrit&m1=svefn+svefns+svefninn+sve
            fnsins+svefninum+svefni&l1=Leita&lmax=1

            er þér svefns "thou dreamest", "you´re dreaming"


            SYNTAX in OE.

            ic geseah on swefne "I saw in a dream"; ic geseah swefn "I saw a
            dream"; for ðære gesihðe ðe he on ðæm swefne geseah "for that vision
            which he saw in the dreams"; him wearþ on slæpe swefen ætywed "he
            was shown a vision in his sleep"; þa stod him sum mon æt þurh
            swefn "then some man stood by him in his dream"; Hi slepon
            swæfnum "they slept with dreams" (dormierunt somnum); oðer swefen
            hine mætte "another dream came to him".

            swefnian, 1. with acc. of dreamer "to appear to someone in a dream";
            2. with nom. of dreamer "to dream". WHAT CASE IS THE DREAM?

            (ge)mætan (long æ), "to dream", impersonal with dat. or acc. of
            dreamer AND ACC. OF DREAM, e.g. swa his man-drihten gemæted
            wearþ "as his lord had dreamed". Origin of this verb unknown; no
            cognates according to the Oxford English Dictionary. Not the same
            as metan "meet" (Go. (ga)motjan). The Gothic form, if it existed,
            would be *metjan.
            ___________________________________________

            *draugm- is based on an idea of Kluge, who suggested the word could
            be related to ON draugr, an undead being, and German
            Trug "deception". But there is no sign of /g/ in the attested forms.
            ___________________________________________

            Things our Gothic Ranilo fraujo, might say:

            Ik in swibna siun . gasahv ubils.

            Mis swibn warþ . þanei saizlep ataugida.

            Mik militonde þar . gametida hari
            swe mus malanans . in mikilaim rampom,
            gakrutodans . kattiwe haiþjos.
            Frumist Griutuggos . gafahanans wesun,
            galausidans aftra, . aftra gafahanans,
            afslahanans þan wiþra . waddjuns unsaros.

            Lama Nom
          • llama_nom
            ... oscilation ... involvement ... In Modern Icelandic there s a frowned-upon tendency (called þágufallssýki dative sickness ) to use the dative with
            Message 5 of 12 , Sep 4, 2005
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              --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, David Kiltz <derdron@g...> wrote:
              >
              > Germanic languages feature a certain kind of 'impersonal'
              > construction with rather complex underlying linguistic structures
              > (such as agentivity, focus etc.). There is a good deal of
              oscilation
              > between the use of accusative and dative in such cases. However, it
              > doesn't seem to be arbitrary but, at least to my sensitivity as a
              > native speaker of German, there are subtle differences in meaning.
              > Roughly speaking, the accusative indicates a more active
              involvement
              > of the logical subject. Personally, although it's 'mir träumt' in
              > German, I'd go for an accusative as well.


              In Modern Icelandic there's a frowned-upon tendency
              (called 'þágufallssýki' "dative sickness") to use the dative with some
              verbs that traditionally took an accusative subject. Especially where
              there are synonyms or near synonyms that do traditionally have a
              dative subject. Maybe the dative is favoured because it's the more
              common oblique subject.

              Interesting comment about accusative indicating a more active
              involvement. Possible exception: verbs to do with suffering pain or
              deprivation. In Icelandic: hunger, thirst, sickness, ticklishness,
              lack, want, desire. In Gothic: hunger, thirst, care/concern.
              Icelandic: mér er kald, NHG mir ist (es) kalt "I´m cold" (i.e. I feel
              cold); but with a more serious affliction, Icelandic: mig
              kell/kelur "I freeze, get frostbitten".

              Llama Nom
            • llama_nom
              Correction: m�r er kalt.
              Message 6 of 12 , Sep 4, 2005
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                Correction: mér er kalt.



                --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <600cell@o...> wrote:

                > Icelandic: mér er kald,
              • David Kiltz
                Thank you for your enlightening remarks. Yes, indeed _(ge)mætan_ is distinct from OE _metan_. My bad. The latter is clearly a derivative of _*(ga-)môt-_ to
                Message 7 of 12 , Sep 18, 2005
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                  Thank you for your enlightening remarks. Yes, indeed _(ge)mætan_ is
                  distinct from OE _metan_. My bad. The latter is clearly a derivative
                  of _*(ga-)môt-_ 'to find room', or directly the cognate of MoE
                  _moot_. _*(ga-)môt- seems to ultimately derive from PIE _*med-_ 'to
                  measure (for), care, look after'. Maybe, _mætan_ belongs in the same
                  group. There is a lengthened grade derivative Greek _mêdeô_ 'ponder,
                  think out, decide'. Or it's derived from _*meh1-_ with a dental
                  suffix, which would also explain the long vowel. Maybe, a dream was
                  thought to be 'measured out, apportioned' to the dreamer. This is, of
                  course, very speculative.

                  As for _draugm-_, I never was very happy with the connection to the
                  root _*dhreugh-_ 'deceive' etc. However, other connection don't seem
                  really good.

                  David

                  On 04.09.2005, at 15:43, llama_nom wrote:

                  > (ge)mætan (long æ), "to dream", impersonal with dat. or acc. of
                  > dreamer AND ACC. OF DREAM, e.g. swa his man-drihten gemæted
                  > wearþ "as his lord had dreamed". Origin of this verb unknown; no
                  > cognates according to the Oxford English Dictionary. Not the same
                  > as metan "meet" (Go. (ga)motjan). The Gothic form, if it existed,
                  > would be *metjan.
                  > ___________________________________________
                  >
                  > *draugm- is based on an idea of Kluge, who suggested the word could
                  > be related to ON draugr, an undead being, and German
                  > Trug "deception". But there is no sign of /g/ in the attested forms.
                  > ___________________________________________
                  >
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