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Neo-gothic poem needs help

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  • Arthur Jones
    Hails. I am writing a neo-gothic poem in English and Ulfilan Gothic. It is inspired by one of many depressing events that happened to Greuthungi around 280-300
    Message 1 of 12 , Aug 28, 2005
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      Hails.

      I am writing a neo-gothic poem in English and Ulfilan Gothic. It is inspired by one of many depressing events that happened to Greuthungi around 280-300 a.d.

      This verse, entitled Lady Ranilo's Dream , is proving difficult for me to write in Gothic. In fact, I am in over my head, not an unusual occurrence for me. the poem begins

      "I dreamt of raging borderlords
      Whose wrath consumed the plains
      For ancient wrongs, hard-riding hordes
      Did burn, and burn again."

      Trouble is, I cannot find a Gothic word for dream, neither noun nor verb. Have I been looking in all the wrong places? I ask your assistance.

      If we don't have an attested word handy, I will suggest something like draum(s)/draumjan which could arguably be consistent with the West Germanic and North Germanic expressions, as to conjugation, anticipation of umlaut, etc.

      Many thanks for your kind help.

      Airangaisareiks

      arthurobin2002@...


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • OSCAR HERRERA
      for dream it is tromen...for dreamt, it might be tromun or tromaida Arthur Jones wrote:Hails. I am writing a neo-gothic poem in
      Message 2 of 12 , Aug 29, 2005
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        for dream it is tromen...for dreamt, it might be tromun or tromaida

        Arthur Jones <arthurobin2002@...> wrote:Hails.

        I am writing a neo-gothic poem in English and Ulfilan Gothic. It is inspired by one of many depressing events that happened to Greuthungi around 280-300 a.d.

        This verse, entitled Lady Ranilo's Dream , is proving difficult for me to write in Gothic. In fact, I am in over my head, not an unusual occurrence for me. the poem begins

        "I dreamt of raging borderlords
        Whose wrath consumed the plains
        For ancient wrongs, hard-riding hordes
        Did burn, and burn again."

        Trouble is, I cannot find a Gothic word for dream, neither noun nor verb. Have I been looking in all the wrong places? I ask your assistance.

        If we don't have an attested word handy, I will suggest something like draum(s)/draumjan which could arguably be consistent with the West Germanic and North Germanic expressions, as to conjugation, anticipation of umlaut, etc.

        Many thanks for your kind help.

        Airangaisareiks

        arthurobin2002@...


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      • Fredrik
        I would too guess dráumjan as wv I. Perhaps it would be dráugman, but im not sure. As a noun it might be dráums, but what if it comes from draumjaz, then it
        Message 3 of 12 , Aug 30, 2005
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          I would too guess dráumjan as wv I. Perhaps it would be dráugman, but
          im not sure. As a noun it might be dráums, but what if it comes from
          draumjaz, then it would be dráumeis.
          Maybe your first line could be as follows:
          (Ik) dráumida bi...+ acc (i guess)


          > Arthur Jones <arthurobin2002@y...> wrote:Hails.
          >
          > I am writing a neo-gothic poem in English and Ulfilan Gothic. It is
          inspired by one of many depressing events that happened to Greuthungi
          around 280-300 a.d.
          >
          > This verse, entitled Lady Ranilo's Dream , is proving difficult for
          me to write in Gothic. In fact, I am in over my head, not an unusual
          occurrence for me. the poem begins
          >
          > "I dreamt of raging borderlords
          > Whose wrath consumed the plains
          > For ancient wrongs, hard-riding hordes
          > Did burn, and burn again."
          >
          > Trouble is, I cannot find a Gothic word for dream, neither noun nor
          verb. Have I been looking in all the wrong places? I ask your
          assistance.
          >
          > If we don't have an attested word handy, I will suggest something
          like draum(s)/draumjan which could arguably be consistent with the
          West Germanic and North Germanic expressions, as to conjugation,
          anticipation of umlaut, etc.
          >
          > Many thanks for your kind help.
          >
          > Airangaisareiks
          >
          > arthurobin2002@y...
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a blank
          email to .
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • llama_nom
          Hey there Arthur, Another good bit of poetry there. In the words of Cleasy & Vigfusson s Icelandic Dictionary: Matth. i. and ii, and by a singular mishap
          Message 4 of 12 , Aug 30, 2005
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            Hey there Arthur,

            Another good bit of poetry there. In the words of Cleasy &
            Vigfusson's Icelandic Dictionary: "Matth. i. and ii, and by a
            singular mishap Matth. xxvii. 19, are lost in Ulf., so that we are
            unable to say how he rendered the Gr. ONAR". Your reconstructions
            look good to me though. In Icelandic, which usually agrees with
            Gothic in such matters, the verb is impersonal in form, with an
            accusative subject and object. So we might imagine a Gothic MIK
            *DRAUMEIÞ "I dream", literally "it dreams me". The noun is
            masculine in German, Icelandic and Old English. (Fredrik, all the
            indications are that the noun is an a-stem in Germanic, thus OE
            dream, ON draumr < Gmc. *draumaz. If it had been **draumjaz, we'd
            expect the noun to be OE **drieme, ON **dreymir.)

            RANILONS DRAUMS FRAUJONS.

            > "I dreamt of raging borderlords
            > Whose wrath consumed the plains
            > For ancient wrongs, hard-riding hordes
            > Did burn, and burn again."

            A literal version: Mik modagans draumida markafraujans, þizeei
            þwairhei waggam fraqam. In fairnjaize skaþize harjos
            hardureidandans gabrannidedun jah aftra gabrannidedun.

            An alliterative version, which isn't as good as your English
            original... The letters in brackets refer to "Siever's five types",
            the standard metrical patterns of old Germanic poetry.

            Mik markafraujans (D) . modagans draumida (A)
            þizeei þwairhei (A) . gaþars waggans (C);
            harjos ushofun (A) . hardureidandans (D)
            und frawaurhtim (C) . fairnjaim haurja (A),
            fon jah aftra fon.

            (...withered plains/fields/meadows. Hordes/hosts hard-riding
            raised, in payment for ancient wrongs, bonfires, fire and fire
            again.)

            LLama Nom
          • llama_nom
            A better idea for plain , IBNASSUS. Mik markafraujans (D) . modagans draumida (A) þizeei þwairhei (A) . gaþars ibnassuns (D); harjos ushofun (A) .
            Message 5 of 12 , Aug 30, 2005
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              A better idea for "plain", IBNASSUS.

              Mik markafraujans (D) . modagans draumida (A)
              þizeei þwairhei (A) . gaþars ibnassuns (D);
              harjos ushofun (A) . hardureidandans (D)
              und frawaurhtim (C) . fairnjaim haurja (A),
              fon jah aftra fon.

              (...whose wrath withered the plains. Hordes/hosts hard-riding
              raised, in payment for ancient wrongs, bonfires, fire and fire
              again.)

              > > "I dreamt of raging borderlords
              > > Whose wrath consumed the plains
              > > For ancient wrongs, hard-riding hordes
              > > Did burn, and burn again."

              Literal version: Mik modagans draumida markafraujans, þizeei
              þwairhei ibnassum fraqam. In fairnjaize skaþize harjos
              hardureidandans gabrannidedun jah aftra gabrannidedun.
            • Arthur Jones
              Dear llama_nom (is that anything like a pan-Romance pick a name? ) Good to have your help again. Somehow, I didn t feel that a tromen was far enough East
              Message 6 of 12 , Aug 30, 2005
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                Dear llama_nom (is that anything like a pan-Romance "pick a name?")

                Good to have your help again. Somehow, I didn't feel that a 'tromen' was far enough East for Gothic. Also, the accusative 'mik draumeith' was logical and reminded me of the archaic NHG "mich duenkt" --methinks in English.

                Cleasy & Vigfusson raise another topic: How does it conveniently happen that precisely those sections of Wulfila got lost? Coincidence? Methinks not. It's a conspiracy, that's what it is.

                As to the use of "ibnassus" for plain, good shot! Treble twenty. Later in the poem, I contrast it with "hauhassus" for mountainous area. Also, we find that the vocabulary fairly lends itself to alliteration and Germanic meter (before we mix in the bodhran and pipes). The end rhyme is confined to modern English, although Cantilena had end rhyme, short as it was, and some feel that Gothic war chants probably did as well.

                Second verse under construction:

                I dreamt of Greuthung warrior-men
                Like mice in great cat-claws
                First caught, then freed, then caught again
                Then slain against our walls.

                Indeed, Fraujo Ranilo is one depressed aristocrat, unable to let go the dead: perhaps suffering from Amal retention.

                Airungaireiks
                arthurobin2002@...

                llama_nom <600cell@...> wrote:

                Hey there Arthur,

                Another good bit of poetry there. In the words of Cleasy &
                Vigfusson's Icelandic Dictionary: "Matth. i. and ii, and by a
                singular mishap Matth. xxvii. 19, are lost in Ulf., so that we are
                unable to say how he rendered the Gr. ONAR". Your reconstructions
                look good to me though. In Icelandic, which usually agrees with
                Gothic in such matters, the verb is impersonal in form, with an
                accusative subject and object. So we might imagine a Gothic MIK
                *DRAUMEIÞ "I dream", literally "it dreams me". The noun is
                masculine in German, Icelandic and Old English. (Fredrik, all the
                indications are that the noun is an a-stem in Germanic, thus OE
                dream, ON draumr < Gmc. *draumaz. If it had been **draumjaz, we'd
                expect the noun to be OE **drieme, ON **dreymir.)

                RANILONS DRAUMS FRAUJONS.

                > "I dreamt of raging borderlords
                > Whose wrath consumed the plains
                > For ancient wrongs, hard-riding hordes
                > Did burn, and burn again."

                A literal version: Mik modagans draumida markafraujans, þizeei
                þwairhei waggam fraqam. In fairnjaize skaþize harjos
                hardureidandans gabrannidedun jah aftra gabrannidedun.

                An alliterative version, which isn't as good as your English
                original... The letters in brackets refer to "Siever's five types",
                the standard metrical patterns of old Germanic poetry.

                Mik markafraujans (D) . modagans draumida (A)
                þizeei þwairhei (A) . gaþars waggans (C);
                harjos ushofun (A) . hardureidandans (D)
                und frawaurhtim (C) . fairnjaim haurja (A),
                fon jah aftra fon.

                (...withered plains/fields/meadows. Hordes/hosts hard-riding
                raised, in payment for ancient wrongs, bonfires, fire and fire
                again.)

                LLama Nom




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              • llama_nom
                ... No, it s a Tibetan-Peruvian mix-up, a sort of dharmic Jeckel & Hyde (Ogden Nash?: one L a priest, two Ls a beast ). Originally tried to be Lama Nom
                Message 7 of 12 , Sep 3, 2005
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                  --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Arthur Jones <arthurobin2002@y...>
                  wrote:
                  > Dear llama_nom (is that anything like a pan-Romance "pick a name?")


                  No, it's a Tibetan-Peruvian mix-up, a sort of dharmic Jeckel & Hyde
                  (Ogden Nash?: "one L a priest, two Ls a beast"). Originally tried
                  to be Lama Nom (after a name in a dream), but forgot my first
                  password. But if Yahoo Groups was a spaghetti western (and who says
                  it won't be one day?), then sure, I'd be that noted desperado [Me
                  Llamo] Nombre, "the man with no name AND a name".



                  > Also, the accusative 'mik draumeith' was logical and reminded me
                  of the archaic NHG "mich duenkt" --methinks in English.



                  My rule of thumb is, never rely on logic when it comes to human
                  languages. Just look at what they do. The Gothic equivalent
                  of "methinks" takes a dative object as in Icelandic, e.g. Mt 6,7
                  þugkeiþ im "they think".



                  > Cleasy & Vigfusson raise another topic: How does it conveniently
                  happen that precisely those sections of Wulfila got lost?
                  Coincidence? Methinks not. It's a conspiracy, that's what it is.



                  I was just impressed by the showing off. It may not know the
                  answer, but it knows where the answer WOULD HAVE BEEN. This in the
                  days before computer searches. That's a lot of bible reading,
                  methinks.



                  > Second verse under construction:
                  >
                  > I dreamt of Greuthung warrior-men
                  > Like mice in great cat-claws
                  > First caught, then freed, then caught again
                  > Then slain against our walls.


                  Mik Griutugge draumida gadrauhtins, swe mus in mikilaim katturampom
                  frumist gafahanans, þaþroh þan galausidans, þaþroh þan aftra
                  gafahanans, jah afslahanans wiþra (baurgs)waddjuns unsaros.


                  > Amal retention.


                  Boh!

                  Ll.N.
                • David Kiltz
                  ... On the note of Gothic to dream . No, I can t find an attested form either in the Gothic corpus. However, next to _*draum-, draugm-_ consider derivatives
                  Message 8 of 12 , Sep 3, 2005
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                    On 31.08.2005, at 01:05, Arthur Jones wrote:

                    > Also, the accusative 'mik draumeith' was logical and reminded me of
                    > the archaic NHG "mich duenkt" --methinks in English.

                    On the note of Gothic 'to dream'. No, I can't find an attested form
                    either in the Gothic corpus. However, next to _*draum-, draugm-_
                    consider derivatives of PGerm. _*sweƀnaz_ (swebnaz_). In the OldEngl.
                    poem 'Dream of the Rood' we find the expression "...swefna ... hwaet
                    me gemaette", thus, a dream 'that met me'. So Arthur might, perhaps,
                    as well consider using something like _*swibns_ as 'dream'. As for
                    impersonal expressions like 'methinks/ mich dünkt', it should be
                    noted that in (archaizing) NHGerman it's 'mir träumt' with dative,
                    not accusative. In Icelandic it's the accusative e.g. 'mik dreymdi
                    draum'. Languages are, of course, where the term applies -strictu
                    sensu- logical. Otherwise, they wouldn't work. However, I don't see
                    how the accusative is necessarily more 'logical' than the dative.
                    Germanic languages feature a certain kind of 'impersonal'
                    construction with rather complex underlying linguistic structures
                    (such as agentivity, focus etc.). There is a good deal of oscilation
                    between the use of accusative and dative in such cases. However, it
                    doesn't seem to be arbitrary but, at least to my sensitivity as a
                    native speaker of German, there are subtle differences in meaning.
                    Roughly speaking, the accusative indicates a more active involvement
                    of the logical subject. Personally, although it's 'mir träumt' in
                    German, I'd go for an accusative as well.

                    -David
                  • llama_nom
                    Good suggestion, David. Gmc. *swebna- (cognate with Gk. hupnos) is neuter in OE, but masculine in ON, OS and OHG. Means both sleep and dream . Often
                    Message 9 of 12 , Sep 4, 2005
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                      Good suggestion, David. Gmc. *swebna- (cognate with Gk. hupnos) is
                      neuter in OE, but masculine in ON, OS and OHG. Means both "sleep"
                      and "dream". Often plural in OE.

                      SYNTAX in ON. http://www.lexis.hi.is/corpus/leit.pl?
                      lemma=svefn&ofl=&leita=1&flokkar=Fornrit&m1=svefn+svefns+svefninn+sve
                      fnsins+svefninum+svefni&l1=Leita&lmax=1

                      er þér svefns "thou dreamest", "you´re dreaming"


                      SYNTAX in OE.

                      ic geseah on swefne "I saw in a dream"; ic geseah swefn "I saw a
                      dream"; for ðære gesihðe ðe he on ðæm swefne geseah "for that vision
                      which he saw in the dreams"; him wearþ on slæpe swefen ætywed "he
                      was shown a vision in his sleep"; þa stod him sum mon æt þurh
                      swefn "then some man stood by him in his dream"; Hi slepon
                      swæfnum "they slept with dreams" (dormierunt somnum); oðer swefen
                      hine mætte "another dream came to him".

                      swefnian, 1. with acc. of dreamer "to appear to someone in a dream";
                      2. with nom. of dreamer "to dream". WHAT CASE IS THE DREAM?

                      (ge)mætan (long æ), "to dream", impersonal with dat. or acc. of
                      dreamer AND ACC. OF DREAM, e.g. swa his man-drihten gemæted
                      wearþ "as his lord had dreamed". Origin of this verb unknown; no
                      cognates according to the Oxford English Dictionary. Not the same
                      as metan "meet" (Go. (ga)motjan). The Gothic form, if it existed,
                      would be *metjan.
                      ___________________________________________

                      *draugm- is based on an idea of Kluge, who suggested the word could
                      be related to ON draugr, an undead being, and German
                      Trug "deception". But there is no sign of /g/ in the attested forms.
                      ___________________________________________

                      Things our Gothic Ranilo fraujo, might say:

                      Ik in swibna siun . gasahv ubils.

                      Mis swibn warþ . þanei saizlep ataugida.

                      Mik militonde þar . gametida hari
                      swe mus malanans . in mikilaim rampom,
                      gakrutodans . kattiwe haiþjos.
                      Frumist Griutuggos . gafahanans wesun,
                      galausidans aftra, . aftra gafahanans,
                      afslahanans þan wiþra . waddjuns unsaros.

                      Lama Nom
                    • llama_nom
                      ... oscilation ... involvement ... In Modern Icelandic there s a frowned-upon tendency (called þágufallssýki dative sickness ) to use the dative with
                      Message 10 of 12 , Sep 4, 2005
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                        --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, David Kiltz <derdron@g...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Germanic languages feature a certain kind of 'impersonal'
                        > construction with rather complex underlying linguistic structures
                        > (such as agentivity, focus etc.). There is a good deal of
                        oscilation
                        > between the use of accusative and dative in such cases. However, it
                        > doesn't seem to be arbitrary but, at least to my sensitivity as a
                        > native speaker of German, there are subtle differences in meaning.
                        > Roughly speaking, the accusative indicates a more active
                        involvement
                        > of the logical subject. Personally, although it's 'mir träumt' in
                        > German, I'd go for an accusative as well.


                        In Modern Icelandic there's a frowned-upon tendency
                        (called 'þágufallssýki' "dative sickness") to use the dative with some
                        verbs that traditionally took an accusative subject. Especially where
                        there are synonyms or near synonyms that do traditionally have a
                        dative subject. Maybe the dative is favoured because it's the more
                        common oblique subject.

                        Interesting comment about accusative indicating a more active
                        involvement. Possible exception: verbs to do with suffering pain or
                        deprivation. In Icelandic: hunger, thirst, sickness, ticklishness,
                        lack, want, desire. In Gothic: hunger, thirst, care/concern.
                        Icelandic: mér er kald, NHG mir ist (es) kalt "I´m cold" (i.e. I feel
                        cold); but with a more serious affliction, Icelandic: mig
                        kell/kelur "I freeze, get frostbitten".

                        Llama Nom
                      • llama_nom
                        Correction: m�r er kalt.
                        Message 11 of 12 , Sep 4, 2005
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                          Correction: mér er kalt.



                          --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <600cell@o...> wrote:

                          > Icelandic: mér er kald,
                        • David Kiltz
                          Thank you for your enlightening remarks. Yes, indeed _(ge)mætan_ is distinct from OE _metan_. My bad. The latter is clearly a derivative of _*(ga-)môt-_ to
                          Message 12 of 12 , Sep 18, 2005
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                            Thank you for your enlightening remarks. Yes, indeed _(ge)mætan_ is
                            distinct from OE _metan_. My bad. The latter is clearly a derivative
                            of _*(ga-)môt-_ 'to find room', or directly the cognate of MoE
                            _moot_. _*(ga-)môt- seems to ultimately derive from PIE _*med-_ 'to
                            measure (for), care, look after'. Maybe, _mætan_ belongs in the same
                            group. There is a lengthened grade derivative Greek _mêdeô_ 'ponder,
                            think out, decide'. Or it's derived from _*meh1-_ with a dental
                            suffix, which would also explain the long vowel. Maybe, a dream was
                            thought to be 'measured out, apportioned' to the dreamer. This is, of
                            course, very speculative.

                            As for _draugm-_, I never was very happy with the connection to the
                            root _*dhreugh-_ 'deceive' etc. However, other connection don't seem
                            really good.

                            David

                            On 04.09.2005, at 15:43, llama_nom wrote:

                            > (ge)mætan (long æ), "to dream", impersonal with dat. or acc. of
                            > dreamer AND ACC. OF DREAM, e.g. swa his man-drihten gemæted
                            > wearþ "as his lord had dreamed". Origin of this verb unknown; no
                            > cognates according to the Oxford English Dictionary. Not the same
                            > as metan "meet" (Go. (ga)motjan). The Gothic form, if it existed,
                            > would be *metjan.
                            > ___________________________________________
                            >
                            > *draugm- is based on an idea of Kluge, who suggested the word could
                            > be related to ON draugr, an undead being, and German
                            > Trug "deception". But there is no sign of /g/ in the attested forms.
                            > ___________________________________________
                            >
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