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Thuringians = Tervingian Goths

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  • faltin2001
    Hello all, I read the study „Stamm und Reich der frühen Thüringer nach den Schriftquellen (i.e. Folk/tribe and realm of the early Thuringians according to
    Message 1 of 5 , Aug 21 5:42 AM
      Hello all,

      I read the study „Stamm und Reich der frühen Thüringer nach den
      Schriftquellen" (i.e. Folk/tribe and realm of the early Thuringians
      according to historical sources) by Dr. Heike Grahn-Hoek, in
      Zeitschrift des Vereins für Thüringische Geschichte, Vol. 56 (2002).
      The study comprises 87 pages in small print. It is extremely well
      sourced and argued to the highest academic standards. As indicated by
      the title, the author relies exclusively on historical sources and in
      fact explicitly excludes archaeological evidence to avoid circular
      arguments. As far as I can see, her study was well received by other
      historians (e.g. H. Castritius in RGA).

      The argument of key interest in my view centres on the origin of the
      Thuringians. The author explains that the most common theory suggests
      that the name was derived from an older tribal name Hermun-d u r e n.
      However, she adds that this explanation has always been doubted by
      linguists. Thus, the author re-examines the various name forms
      provided in the earliest sources. Based on Malchus a Greek source of
      the 5th cent. who provided the Greek form The-ou-r-ingoi (in Latin
      The-u-r-ingi) she argues that this name may be derived from The-r-u-
      ingi the name of the Gothic Tervingi through a simple switch of ou/u
      and r. She states that there are other examples in antique sources
      where such an `u - r switch' occurred.

      The author states that the time frame for the emergence of
      Theuringoi/Thuringians and the disappearance of Theruingi/Tervingi
      around 400 AD matches perfectly. The Theuringi are first mentioned in
      400AD (Vegetius), but the source implies that at this time they were
      already very well known throughout the empire. Thus, the
      identification of Theuringi with Theruingi would fill a gap in the
      sources.

      Next, the author moves to the main part of her examination, the study
      of historical sources in order to see whether a link between
      Theuringi/Thuringians and Theruingi/Tervingians can be postulated. In
      shortest possible terms, she takes the events surrounding Athanaric's
      Tervingi as the starting point. Faced with the Hunnic onslaught, in
      the 370s the Tervingi were beset by a crisis with a pro-Roman, pro-
      Christian faction led by Fritigern which sought settlements within
      the Roman empire and a pagan anti-Roman faction led by the Athanaric.
      Athanaric had at one stage vowed never to set food on Roman soil.
      Yet, for whatever reason he was later compelled to seek refuge with a
      small following in Constantinopel. His part of the Tervingi was taken
      over by `proximorum factione' (ie. relatives), who according to
      Marcellinus Comes sought refuge "far away in lands (domicilium
      remotum) unknown to the Huns". The author's argumentation here is
      extremely detailed and suggest that these Tervingi were located
      further north than often believed at that time.

      Next, the author discusses the campaign of Radagaisus in 405/06. She
      explains that his attribution to Greutungi (Ostrogoths) or Tervingi
      (Visigoths) is uncertain. Since he is described as a pagan in
      contrast to the Christian Tervingi under Alaric some scholars argue
      that he must have been a Greutungian Goths. However, the sources call
      him simply a rex (basileus) Gothorum, i.e. a king of the Goths.
      However, Radagaisus is not listed among the ancestors of the
      Ostrogothic Amals. Thus, other scholars argue that Radagaisus was a
      Tervingian and possibly even the one who succeeded Athanaric. Thos
      who believe that he as a Tervingian successor of Athanaric usual
      place him in the so called Caucaland, i.e. the Carpathian region.
      Yet, most interestingly, Zosimos provides evidence for the
      geographical origin of Radagaisus by stating that he had come from
      the lands between Danube and Rhine. This is exactly the description
      for the geographical location of the Thuringian kingdom and it would
      make no sense if he had started out in the Carpathian mountain
      region.

      The author points out that the name Radagais appears later in the
      Thuringian/Warnian royal family with a prince Radagis. The component
      Rada- is found in royal Thuringian names like Rade-gundis (two
      princesses) and a 7th century Thuringian duke/king Radaulf. The `–
      gais `component of Radagais is used again in the name of the
      Thuringian prince Arta-gais/Arta – chis.

      As mentioned earlier, the author deliberately excluded archaeological
      evidence in order to avoid circular argumentation. One a footnote in
      her study refers to supportive archaeology. However, the
      archaeological evidence available already is in my view a key support
      for the theory that Theuringi/Thuringians are identical with
      Theruingi/Tervingian Goths. Berthold Schmidt has shown already in the
      1980s and 1990s that substantial groups of carriers of the
      Cheryhakovsk/Sintana-de-Mures culture (which is associated with the
      Goths) arrived in middle Germany and settled at the centre of the
      later Thuringian kingdom. These groups are known under the technical
      terms Grossbadegaster and Niemburger groups. They arrived in middle
      Germany in the 370/380s just at the time when Athanaric's Tervingi
      disappear from the sources. Following Grahn-Hoek's argument these
      would have been the Athanaric-Tervingi probably under the leadership
      of Radagais.

      Overall, H. Grahn-Hoek's study is extremely well argued and provides
      a wealth of information. I think it is particularly important not
      only for its contribution to Thuringian history and in particular the
      ethnic/political origin of this people, but also because of the
      contribution to Gothic history. It now seems likely that besides the
      various creations of historically important Gothic kingdom on the
      territory of the Roman empire, there was also one historically
      important Gothic kingdom founded outside the Roman empire `…remotum
      ab omni notia barbarorum…' which, in line with Zosimos, was located
      between Danube and the Rhine centring on an area that carries its
      name to this day.

      Cheers
      Dirk
    • macmaster@riseup.net
      The main questions I would have regarding this theory are: -- why wouldn t anyone 400-600 have called the Thuringians Goths ? They were allied to Theodoric s
      Message 2 of 5 , Aug 21 11:23 AM
        The main questions I would have regarding this theory are:
        -- why wouldn't anyone 400-600 have called the Thuringians "Goths"? They
        were allied to Theodoric's italian kingdom and generally appear as
        themselves but no mention is made of Northern Goths. the Gothic name at
        this time would be far more prestigious and I would assume that it would
        be much vaunted.
        -- wouldn't this involve a major linguistic shift from East Germanic? Is
        there any evidence of this?

        Tom


        faltin2001 wrote:
        > Hello all,
        >
        > I read the study „Stamm und Reich der frühen Thüringer nach den
        > Schriftquellen" (i.e. Folk/tribe and realm of the early Thuringians
        > according to historical sources) by Dr. Heike Grahn-Hoek, in
        > Zeitschrift des Vereins für Thüringische Geschichte, Vol. 56 (2002).
        > The study comprises 87 pages in small print. It is extremely well
        > sourced and argued to the highest academic standards. As indicated by
        > the title, the author relies exclusively on historical sources and in
        > fact explicitly excludes archaeological evidence to avoid circular
        > arguments. As far as I can see, her study was well received by other
        > historians (e.g. H. Castritius in RGA).
        >
        > The argument of key interest in my view centres on the origin of the
        > Thuringians. The author explains that the most common theory suggests
        > that the name was derived from an older tribal name Hermun-d u r e n.
        > However, she adds that this explanation has always been doubted by
        > linguists. Thus, the author re-examines the various name forms
        > provided in the earliest sources. Based on Malchus a Greek source of
        > the 5th cent. who provided the Greek form The-ou-r-ingoi (in Latin
        > The-u-r-ingi) she argues that this name may be derived from The-r-u-
        > ingi the name of the Gothic Tervingi through a simple switch of ou/u
        > and r. She states that there are other examples in antique sources
        > where such an `u - r switch' occurred.
        >
        > The author states that the time frame for the emergence of
        > Theuringoi/Thuringians and the disappearance of Theruingi/Tervingi
        > around 400 AD matches perfectly. The Theuringi are first mentioned in
        > 400AD (Vegetius), but the source implies that at this time they were
        > already very well known throughout the empire. Thus, the
        > identification of Theuringi with Theruingi would fill a gap in the
        > sources.
        >
        > Next, the author moves to the main part of her examination, the study
        > of historical sources in order to see whether a link between
        > Theuringi/Thuringians and Theruingi/Tervingians can be postulated. In
        > shortest possible terms, she takes the events surrounding Athanaric's
        > Tervingi as the starting point. Faced with the Hunnic onslaught, in
        > the 370s the Tervingi were beset by a crisis with a pro-Roman, pro-
        > Christian faction led by Fritigern which sought settlements within
        > the Roman empire and a pagan anti-Roman faction led by the Athanaric.
        > Athanaric had at one stage vowed never to set food on Roman soil.
        > Yet, for whatever reason he was later compelled to seek refuge with a
        > small following in Constantinopel. His part of the Tervingi was taken
        > over by `proximorum factione' (ie. relatives), who according to
        > Marcellinus Comes sought refuge "far away in lands (domicilium
        > remotum) unknown to the Huns". The author's argumentation here is
        > extremely detailed and suggest that these Tervingi were located
        > further north than often believed at that time.
        >
        > Next, the author discusses the campaign of Radagaisus in 405/06. She
        > explains that his attribution to Greutungi (Ostrogoths) or Tervingi
        > (Visigoths) is uncertain. Since he is described as a pagan in
        > contrast to the Christian Tervingi under Alaric some scholars argue
        > that he must have been a Greutungian Goths. However, the sources call
        > him simply a rex (basileus) Gothorum, i.e. a king of the Goths.
        > However, Radagaisus is not listed among the ancestors of the
        > Ostrogothic Amals. Thus, other scholars argue that Radagaisus was a
        > Tervingian and possibly even the one who succeeded Athanaric. Thos
        > who believe that he as a Tervingian successor of Athanaric usual
        > place him in the so called Caucaland, i.e. the Carpathian region.
        > Yet, most interestingly, Zosimos provides evidence for the
        > geographical origin of Radagaisus by stating that he had come from
        > the lands between Danube and Rhine. This is exactly the description
        > for the geographical location of the Thuringian kingdom and it would
        > make no sense if he had started out in the Carpathian mountain
        > region.
        >
        > The author points out that the name Radagais appears later in the
        > Thuringian/Warnian royal family with a prince Radagis. The component
        > Rada- is found in royal Thuringian names like Rade-gundis (two
        > princesses) and a 7th century Thuringian duke/king Radaulf. The `–
        > gais `component of Radagais is used again in the name of the
        > Thuringian prince Arta-gais/Arta – chis.
        >
        > As mentioned earlier, the author deliberately excluded archaeological
        > evidence in order to avoid circular argumentation. One a footnote in
        > her study refers to supportive archaeology. However, the
        > archaeological evidence available already is in my view a key support
        > for the theory that Theuringi/Thuringians are identical with
        > Theruingi/Tervingian Goths. Berthold Schmidt has shown already in the
        > 1980s and 1990s that substantial groups of carriers of the
        > Cheryhakovsk/Sintana-de-Mures culture (which is associated with the
        > Goths) arrived in middle Germany and settled at the centre of the
        > later Thuringian kingdom. These groups are known under the technical
        > terms Grossbadegaster and Niemburger groups. They arrived in middle
        > Germany in the 370/380s just at the time when Athanaric's Tervingi
        > disappear from the sources. Following Grahn-Hoek's argument these
        > would have been the Athanaric-Tervingi probably under the leadership
        > of Radagais.
        >
        > Overall, H. Grahn-Hoek's study is extremely well argued and provides
        > a wealth of information. I think it is particularly important not
        > only for its contribution to Thuringian history and in particular the
        > ethnic/political origin of this people, but also because of the
        > contribution to Gothic history. It now seems likely that besides the
        > various creations of historically important Gothic kingdom on the
        > territory of the Roman empire, there was also one historically
        > important Gothic kingdom founded outside the Roman empire `…remotum
        > ab omni notia barbarorum…' which, in line with Zosimos, was located
        > between Danube and the Rhine centring on an area that carries its
        > name to this day.
        >
        > Cheers
        > Dirk
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
      • faltin2001
        ... Thuringians Goths ? They ... name at ... would ... Germanic? Is ... Hi Tom, firstly, if Radagaisus belonged to this group (between Danube and Rhine), as
        Message 3 of 5 , Aug 22 11:19 PM
          --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, macmaster@r... wrote:
          >
          > The main questions I would have regarding this theory are:
          > -- why wouldn't anyone 400-600 have called the
          Thuringians "Goths"? They
          > were allied to Theodoric's italian kingdom and generally appear as
          > themselves but no mention is made of Northern Goths. the Gothic
          name at
          > this time would be far more prestigious and I would assume that it
          would
          > be much vaunted.
          > -- wouldn't this involve a major linguistic shift from East
          Germanic? Is
          > there any evidence of this?
          >
          > Tom
          >


          Hi Tom,

          firstly, if Radagaisus belonged to this group (between Danube and
          Rhine), as Zosimos seem to suggest, than the name 'Goths' was
          actually applied to them, albeit briefly and by Roman sources.
          Secondly, it is important to note that the Visigoths were not called
          Visi-g o t h s, but called themselves 'Vesi' after the name Tervingi
          disappeared. The name 'Goths' was added only later by Roman authors.
          Hence, the name 'Goths' was apparently not as prestigious to them as
          some people may think today. In fact, names like Greutungi and
          Tervingi may have been much more prestiguous at the time. Given the
          political/religious conservativism of the Athanaric-Tervingi it would
          not be too surprising if this particular group continued to use this
          particular name. In fact, it seem that a reversal to the name 'Goths'
          occured only when 'Goths' settled on Roman territory and most likely
          because of outside ( i.e. Roman) use of the term and not because of
          deliberate self-naming. Thus, the Teruingi - Teuringi in middle
          Germany would have preserved what appeared to them as the more
          ancient, prestigious and certainly more conservative name.

          Cheers
          Dirk










          >
          > faltin2001 wrote:
          > > Hello all,
          > >
          > > I read the study „Stamm und Reich der frühen Thüringer nach den
          > > Schriftquellen" (i.e. Folk/tribe and realm of the early
          Thuringians
          > > according to historical sources) by Dr. Heike Grahn-Hoek, in
          > > Zeitschrift des Vereins für Thüringische Geschichte, Vol. 56
          (2002).
          > > The study comprises 87 pages in small print. It is extremely well
          > > sourced and argued to the highest academic standards. As
          indicated by
          > > the title, the author relies exclusively on historical sources
          and in
          > > fact explicitly excludes archaeological evidence to avoid
          circular
          > > arguments. As far as I can see, her study was well received by
          other
          > > historians (e.g. H. Castritius in RGA).
          > >
          > > The argument of key interest in my view centres on the origin of
          the
          > > Thuringians. The author explains that the most common theory
          suggests
          > > that the name was derived from an older tribal name Hermun-d u r
          e n.
          > > However, she adds that this explanation has always been doubted
          by
          > > linguists. Thus, the author re-examines the various name forms
          > > provided in the earliest sources. Based on Malchus a Greek
          source of
          > > the 5th cent. who provided the Greek form The-ou-r-ingoi (in
          Latin
          > > The-u-r-ingi) she argues that this name may be derived from The-
          r-u-
          > > ingi the name of the Gothic Tervingi through a simple switch of
          ou/u
          > > and r. She states that there are other examples in antique
          sources
          > > where such an `u - r switch' occurred.
          > >
          > > The author states that the time frame for the emergence of
          > > Theuringoi/Thuringians and the disappearance of
          Theruingi/Tervingi
          > > around 400 AD matches perfectly. The Theuringi are first
          mentioned in
          > > 400AD (Vegetius), but the source implies that at this time they
          were
          > > already very well known throughout the empire. Thus, the
          > > identification of Theuringi with Theruingi would fill a gap in
          the
          > > sources.
          > >
          > > Next, the author moves to the main part of her examination, the
          study
          > > of historical sources in order to see whether a link between
          > > Theuringi/Thuringians and Theruingi/Tervingians can be
          postulated. In
          > > shortest possible terms, she takes the events surrounding
          Athanaric's
          > > Tervingi as the starting point. Faced with the Hunnic onslaught,
          in
          > > the 370s the Tervingi were beset by a crisis with a pro-Roman,
          pro-
          > > Christian faction led by Fritigern which sought settlements
          within
          > > the Roman empire and a pagan anti-Roman faction led by the
          Athanaric.
          > > Athanaric had at one stage vowed never to set food on Roman soil.
          > > Yet, for whatever reason he was later compelled to seek refuge
          with a
          > > small following in Constantinopel. His part of the Tervingi was
          taken
          > > over by `proximorum factione' (ie. relatives), who according to
          > > Marcellinus Comes sought refuge "far away in lands
          (domicilium
          > > remotum) unknown to the Huns". The author's argumentation
          here is
          > > extremely detailed and suggest that these Tervingi were located
          > > further north than often believed at that time.
          > >
          > > Next, the author discusses the campaign of Radagaisus in 405/06.
          She
          > > explains that his attribution to Greutungi (Ostrogoths) or
          Tervingi
          > > (Visigoths) is uncertain. Since he is described as a pagan in
          > > contrast to the Christian Tervingi under Alaric some scholars
          argue
          > > that he must have been a Greutungian Goths. However, the sources
          call
          > > him simply a rex (basileus) Gothorum, i.e. a king of the Goths.
          > > However, Radagaisus is not listed among the ancestors of the
          > > Ostrogothic Amals. Thus, other scholars argue that Radagaisus
          was a
          > > Tervingian and possibly even the one who succeeded Athanaric.
          Thos
          > > who believe that he as a Tervingian successor of Athanaric usual
          > > place him in the so called Caucaland, i.e. the Carpathian region.
          > > Yet, most interestingly, Zosimos provides evidence for the
          > > geographical origin of Radagaisus by stating that he had come
          from
          > > the lands between Danube and Rhine. This is exactly the
          description
          > > for the geographical location of the Thuringian kingdom and it
          would
          > > make no sense if he had started out in the Carpathian mountain
          > > region.
          > >
          > > The author points out that the name Radagais appears later in the
          > > Thuringian/Warnian royal family with a prince Radagis. The
          component
          > > Rada- is found in royal Thuringian names like Rade-gundis (two
          > > princesses) and a 7th century Thuringian duke/king Radaulf. The

          > > gais `component of Radagais is used again in the name of the
          > > Thuringian prince Arta-gais/Arta – chis.
          > >
          > > As mentioned earlier, the author deliberately excluded
          archaeological
          > > evidence in order to avoid circular argumentation. One a
          footnote in
          > > her study refers to supportive archaeology. However, the
          > > archaeological evidence available already is in my view a key
          support
          > > for the theory that Theuringi/Thuringians are identical with
          > > Theruingi/Tervingian Goths. Berthold Schmidt has shown already
          in the
          > > 1980s and 1990s that substantial groups of carriers of the
          > > Cheryhakovsk/Sintana-de-Mures culture (which is associated with
          the
          > > Goths) arrived in middle Germany and settled at the centre of the
          > > later Thuringian kingdom. These groups are known under the
          technical
          > > terms Grossbadegaster and Niemburger groups. They arrived in
          middle
          > > Germany in the 370/380s just at the time when Athanaric's
          Tervingi
          > > disappear from the sources. Following Grahn-Hoek's argument these
          > > would have been the Athanaric-Tervingi probably under the
          leadership
          > > of Radagais.
          > >
          > > Overall, H. Grahn-Hoek's study is extremely well argued and
          provides
          > > a wealth of information. I think it is particularly important not
          > > only for its contribution to Thuringian history and in
          particular the
          > > ethnic/political origin of this people, but also because of the
          > > contribution to Gothic history. It now seems likely that besides
          the
          > > various creations of historically important Gothic kingdom on the
          > > territory of the Roman empire, there was also one historically
          > > important Gothic kingdom founded outside the Roman empire `…
          remotum
          > > ab omni notia barbarorum…' which, in line with Zosimos, was
          located
          > > between Danube and the Rhine centring on an area that carries its
          > > name to this day.
          > >
          > > Cheers
          > > Dirk
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
        • faltin2001
          ... Thuringians Goths ? They ... name at ... would ... Germanic? Is ... Hi Tom, excited that somebody actually did respond to this new and important theory
          Message 4 of 5 , Aug 22 11:39 PM
            --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, macmaster@r... wrote:
            >
            > The main questions I would have regarding this theory are:
            > -- why wouldn't anyone 400-600 have called the
            Thuringians "Goths"? They
            > were allied to Theodoric's italian kingdom and generally appear as
            > themselves but no mention is made of Northern Goths. the Gothic
            name at
            > this time would be far more prestigious and I would assume that it
            would
            > be much vaunted.
            > -- wouldn't this involve a major linguistic shift from East
            Germanic? Is
            > there any evidence of this?
            >
            > Tom
            >

            Hi Tom,

            excited that somebody actually did respond to this new and important
            theory I forgot to comment on you second point. The author Grahn-Hoek
            does not discuss linguistics in the study and I don't really have an
            answer. I suppose the question is how 'major' was the different
            between East- and West Germanic in 380AD. We know from historical
            sources that at least two (probably three) West Germanic groups were
            incorporated into this Teruingi-Teuringi kingdom: Warnians, Anglians
            and Suebians. If the linguistic difference was mostly dialectual than
            this combination would have led to a levelling of the languages over
            the following centuries and there is no written evidence for the
            Thuringian language/dialect before 800AD.

            However, personal names are usually more conservative than the
            language as a whole and several authors have in the past noted that
            Thuringian personal names (e.g. Ermenefrid, Artagais, Radagais,
            Radaulf, Radegundis, Ermenegisl, Amalafrid etc.) are more typical of
            East Germanic personal names than of West Germanic personal names.

            Cheers
            Dirk
          • faltin2001
            ... it ... Hoek ... than ... of ... To add to my previous point: Berthold Schmidt in his archaeological study on Thuringia (in Studien zur Sachsenforschung,
            Message 5 of 5 , Aug 23 1:47 AM
              --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "faltin2001" <dirk@s...> wrote:
              > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, macmaster@r... wrote:
              > >
              > > The main questions I would have regarding this theory are:
              > > -- why wouldn't anyone 400-600 have called the
              > Thuringians "Goths"? They
              > > were allied to Theodoric's italian kingdom and generally appear as
              > > themselves but no mention is made of Northern Goths. the Gothic
              > name at
              > > this time would be far more prestigious and I would assume that
              it
              > would
              > > be much vaunted.
              > > -- wouldn't this involve a major linguistic shift from East
              > Germanic? Is
              > > there any evidence of this?
              > >
              > > Tom
              > >
              >
              > Hi Tom,
              >
              > excited that somebody actually did respond to this new and important
              > theory I forgot to comment on you second point. The author Grahn-
              Hoek
              > does not discuss linguistics in the study and I don't really have an
              > answer. I suppose the question is how 'major' was the different
              > between East- and West Germanic in 380AD. We know from historical
              > sources that at least two (probably three) West Germanic groups were
              > incorporated into this Teruingi-Teuringi kingdom: Warnians, Anglians
              > and Suebians. If the linguistic difference was mostly dialectual
              than
              > this combination would have led to a levelling of the languages over
              > the following centuries and there is no written evidence for the
              > Thuringian language/dialect before 800AD.
              >
              > However, personal names are usually more conservative than the
              > language as a whole and several authors have in the past noted that
              > Thuringian personal names (e.g. Ermenefrid, Artagais, Radagais,
              > Radaulf, Radegundis, Ermenegisl, Amalafrid etc.) are more typical
              of
              > East Germanic personal names than of West Germanic personal names.
              >
              > Cheers
              > Dirk



              To add to my previous point: Berthold Schmidt in his archaeological
              study on Thuringia (in Studien zur Sachsenforschung, No. 13, 1999)
              shows that carriers of the Sintana-de-Mures/Chernyakhovsk culture
              settled in the centre of the later Thuringian territory. These people
              had come from the Black Sea region and their cultural characteristics
              are identical to graves discoverd between Danube and Dnjestr (e.g. at
              Tirgsor, Spantov, Independenta, Marosszentana and Oinac). Their
              migratory path from the Danube/Dnjestr region to middle Germany can
              even be approximiated by intermediate stations at Gross-Suerding
              (Zerniki Wielki) in Silesia and Liebersee (Kr. Torgau) in Saxony
              (Germany) to the core region of Thuringia.

              This geographical/archaeological evidence really limits the circle of
              East Germanic tribes that could have made up this group to Tervingi,
              Greutungi, Eruli, Sciri and Rugi. Schmidt noted that this group of
              East Germanic people was substantial in size, and he identifies
              almost 100 cemetaries of this group in middle Germany. It would seem
              odd that their name was not preserved along with the apparently
              smaller West Germanic groups of Warnians (Varni), Anglians (Angli)
              and Suebians (Nordsuavi), especially since their settlement areas
              seem to have encorporated the later 'royal centre'.

              Cheers
              Dirk
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