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Re: Gothic Runes

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  • Francisc Czobor
    I also knew that the Goths used the elder Futhark, a script that was common to all early Germanic tribes. Only in Scandinavia the elder Futhark was later
    Message 1 of 7 , May 31, 2005
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      I also knew that the Goths used the elder Futhark, a script that was
      common to all early Germanic tribes. Only in Scandinavia the elder
      Futhark was later replaced by the younger futhark.
      In any case, all runic inscription attributed to the Goths are, as
      far as I know, in the elder Futhark.

      Francisc


      --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "rhoomegaphi" <rhoomegaphi@y...>
      wrote:
      > Hi I haven't found a discussion here yet about the Gothic variety
      of
      > Runes. Is there an inscription somewhere that we could see how the
      > Goths wrote?
      >
      > I have found at www.omniglot.com something interesting about Gothic
      > Runes. Fraujo's Ahtu is the same as Freyja's Aett, and so is Teiws'
      > Ahtu to Tyr's Aett. Hagls' Ahtu however varies. Btw, I don't know
      if
      > it's accurate or correct to apply the same information to the
      Gothic
      > Runes as the Vikings did when we refer to each eight as an aett.
      >
      > I don't know if it is right or not to think that the Gothic Runes
      > have the same meanings or not. At www.omniglot.com, the Gothic
      > Alphabet is also posted. If one could find out the meanings of
      those
      > names, which most are similar, then we could learn the meanings of
      > those runes.
      >
      > I really like the way that the Gothic runes are different from the
      > Elder Futhark in some of their designs. I have done searches on the
      > Gothic Runes, but I keep getting the same erroneous information
      that
      > the Gothic Futhark is the same as the Elder Futhark, but with one
      > extra rune. This doesn't seem true according to the list of runes
      at
      > www.omniglot.com . I think I will e-mail both sources and ask for
      > references.
      >
      > But if anyone can contribute to this discussion, please do.
      >
      > Thanks.
    • Tore Gannholm
      You can find the full elder Futhark on the Kylver stone from Stånga in Gotland 4th century. http://www.stavgard.com/Gotland/historia_/kylverstenen/default.htm
      Message 2 of 7 , May 31, 2005
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        You can find the full elder Futhark on the Kylver stone from Stånga in
        Gotland 4th century.

        http://www.stavgard.com/Gotland/historia_/kylverstenen/default.htm

        page 2

        Tore


        On May 31, 2005, at 10:35 AM, Francisc Czobor wrote:

        > I also knew that the Goths used the elder Futhark, a script that was
        > common to all early Germanic tribes. Only in Scandinavia the elder
        > Futhark was later replaced by the younger futhark.
        > In any case, all runic inscription attributed to the Goths are, as
        > far as I know, in the elder Futhark.
        >
        > Francisc
        >
        >
        > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "rhoomegaphi" <rhoomegaphi@y...>
        > wrote:
        > > Hi I haven't found a discussion here yet about the Gothic variety
        > of
        > > Runes. Is there an inscription somewhere that we could see how the
        > > Goths wrote?
        > >
        > > I have found at www.omniglot.com something interesting about Gothic
        > > Runes. Fraujo's Ahtu is the same as Freyja's Aett, and so is Teiws'
        > > Ahtu to Tyr's Aett. Hagls' Ahtu however varies.  Btw, I don't know
        > if
        > > it's accurate or correct to apply the same information to the
        > Gothic
        > > Runes as the Vikings did when we refer to each eight as an aett.
        > >
        > > I don't know if it is right or not to think that the Gothic Runes
        > > have the same meanings or not. At www.omniglot.com, the Gothic
        > > Alphabet is also posted. If one could find out the meanings of
        > those
        > > names, which most are similar, then we could learn the meanings of
        > > those runes.
        > >
        > > I really like the way that the Gothic runes are different from the
        > > Elder Futhark in some of their designs. I have done searches on the
        > > Gothic Runes, but I keep getting the same erroneous information
        > that
        > > the Gothic Futhark is the same as the Elder Futhark, but with one
        > > extra rune.  This doesn't seem true according to the list of runes
        > at
        > > www.omniglot.com . I think I will e-mail both sources and ask for
        > > references.
        > >
        > > But if anyone can contribute to this discussion, please do.
        > >
        > > Thanks.


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • llama_nom
        I have to concur with Francisc. Only a handful of Gothic inscriptions survive: while there may be some quirky forms, for example the box-shaped D-rune on the
        Message 3 of 7 , May 31, 2005
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          I have to concur with Francisc. Only a handful of Gothic
          inscriptions survive: while there may be some quirky forms, for
          example the box-shaped D-rune on the Kovel spearhead, nevertheless
          Gothic runes are essentially the Eldar Futhark, and don't really
          differ from the standard runerow any more than other individial
          early inscriptions do from each other. The "Gothic Runes" at this
          Omniglot page

          http://www.omniglot.com/writing/runic.htm

          contain doubtful forms that I don't recognise from any of the
          inscriptions. You are right to be suspicious. The terms you
          mention "Fraujo's ahtu" etc. are not recorded in any ancient
          historical source relating to the Goths, nor does the form *ahtu
          work as a cognate of Old Icelandic 'ætt'. They're presumably a
          modern invention. On the Omniglot page about the Gothic alphabet,
          <e> and <o> only stand for long sounds; *aihvus should read *aihvs
          or *aihws--depending which spelling convention you adopt; and the
          Lord's prayer is slightly garbled by internet-transmission... But
          still, hats off to Omniglot for bringing together all these amazing
          writing systems. Have you seen this one:
          http://www.omniglot.com/writing/nushu.htm ? Anyway, here is a
          useful table comparing several futharks and lists of rune-names.

          http://titus.fkidg1.uni-frankfurt.de/didact/idg/germ/runennam.htm

          The column on the far right lists the names of the Gothic letters
          recorded in a 10th(?) century manuscript. These are the source for
          the reconstructed names at the Omniglot page. They were apparently
          written according to Old High German spelling conventions, so the
          <z> should probably be sounded [s]. Quite a lot do match the
          corresponding names in English and Norse tradition, as you can see,
          though some have been changed, e.g. thyth (='þiuþ'(?) "blessing").
          Curious that the Gothic differs here, and with 'chozma', at a point
          where English and Norse differ from each other. You may have heard
          the hypothesis that OE 'þorn' replaced the demonic (Norse) 'þurs'
          for euphemistic reasons. It has been questioned whether these are
          in fact Gothic (RI Page, An Introduction to English Runes), but I
          can't see what else they can be. It's easy to match some to the
          Biblical Gothic equivalent, but others like AZA have inspired
          various guesses.

          Here are photographs of three Gothic runic inscriptions:

          http://www.gotica.de/

          The runes on the top spearhead (Dahmsdorf) are not very clear in
          this picture, but read RANJA, which has been interpreted as a name
          (for the spear) *Rannja "the one who puts to flight". The next
          reads right-to-left TILARIDS, a name (of the owner?, maker?, the
          spear?), perhaps "Good/appropriate Councel"--but some interpret TILA-
          according to its modern German cognate Ziel "goal, target", and
          RIDS as "rider", and the whole as "target-pursuer", "attacker". The
          final picture here is probably the most famous Gothic inscription of
          all, the golden neck-ring from Pietrioassa, Romania--GUTANI ? WI
          HAILAG--interpreted: Gutane ? weih hailag "the Goths' ?, sacred
          [and] holy." The single uncertain rune is thought to be a concept
          rune, representing its own name, but was damaged when looters sawed
          it in half. The grammar requires a neuter noun in the singlar.
          Often taken to be O = 'oþal' "inheritance".

          These and others are discussed in an online book "Runes around the
          North Sea and on the Continent AD 150-700; texts & contexts", by
          Jantina Helena Looijenga. She interprets the damaged Pietrioassa
          rune as 'jer' "year" (i.e. [good] harvest, a fruitful year). See
          especially Chapter 5 for early south-east European inscriptions,
          including the Letcani spindlewhorl also pictured in Peter
          Heather's "The Goths". This is another Romanian find, and most
          likely Gothic too.

          http://www.ub.rug.nl/eldoc/dis/arts/j.h.looijenga/

          Chapter 7, no. 11 is the Charnay brooch (fibula) inscription,
          thought to be Burgundian--an East Germanic language similar to
          Gothic. Along with the Kylver runes mentioned by Tore, this is one
          of the earliest (near) complete futharks.

          Some pictures (early inscriptions from southern and eastern Europe:
          Charnay, Kowel, Pietroassa, Breza, Bezenye--the others here are
          later, from Viking times). Looijenga has suggested Lombardic
          authorship in the case of the Breza futhark.

          http://www.arild-hauge.com/europe-rune.htm

          A discussion of many early inscriptions including some mentioned
          above:

          http://www.nordic-life.org/nmh/runic.htm

          A German database of inscriptions in the Eldar Futhark, including
          those attributed to the Goths.

          http://www.runenprojekt.uni-kiel.de/

          Hope there's something of interest in that lot.

          Llama Nom
        • rhoomegaphi
          Thanks. Those are good sources. Personally I like the querky forms of the Jer, Quairthra, Pairthra, Ezec, and Sauil. That s my two cents worth. Thanks. ...
          Message 4 of 7 , Jun 10, 2005
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            Thanks. Those are good sources.

            Personally I like the querky forms of the Jer, Quairthra, Pairthra,
            Ezec, and Sauil. That's my two cents worth.

            Thanks.

            --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <600cell@o...> wrote:
            >
            > I have to concur with Francisc. Only a handful of Gothic
            > inscriptions survive: while there may be some quirky forms, for
            > example the box-shaped D-rune on the Kovel spearhead, nevertheless
            > Gothic runes are essentially the Eldar Futhark, and don't really
            > differ from the standard runerow any more than other individial
            > early inscriptions do from each other. The "Gothic Runes" at this
            > Omniglot page
            >
            > http://www.omniglot.com/writing/runic.htm
            >
            > contain doubtful forms that I don't recognise from any of the
            > inscriptions. You are right to be suspicious. The terms you
            > mention "Fraujo's ahtu" etc. are not recorded in any ancient
            > historical source relating to the Goths, nor does the form *ahtu
            > work as a cognate of Old Icelandic 'ætt'. They're presumably a
            > modern invention. On the Omniglot page about the Gothic alphabet,
            > <e> and <o> only stand for long sounds; *aihvus should read *aihvs
            > or *aihws--depending which spelling convention you adopt; and the
            > Lord's prayer is slightly garbled by internet-transmission... But
            > still, hats off to Omniglot for bringing together all these amazing
            > writing systems. Have you seen this one:
            > http://www.omniglot.com/writing/nushu.htm ? Anyway, here is a
            > useful table comparing several futharks and lists of rune-names.
            >
            > http://titus.fkidg1.uni-frankfurt.de/didact/idg/germ/runennam.htm
            >
            > The column on the far right lists the names of the Gothic letters
            > recorded in a 10th(?) century manuscript. These are the source for
            > the reconstructed names at the Omniglot page. They were apparently
            > written according to Old High German spelling conventions, so the
            > <z> should probably be sounded [s]. Quite a lot do match the
            > corresponding names in English and Norse tradition, as you can see,
            > though some have been changed, e.g. thyth (='þiuþ'(?) "blessing").
            > Curious that the Gothic differs here, and with 'chozma', at a point
            > where English and Norse differ from each other. You may have heard
            > the hypothesis that OE 'þorn' replaced the demonic (Norse) 'þurs'
            > for euphemistic reasons. It has been questioned whether these are
            > in fact Gothic (RI Page, An Introduction to English Runes), but I
            > can't see what else they can be. It's easy to match some to the
            > Biblical Gothic equivalent, but others like AZA have inspired
            > various guesses.
            >
            > Here are photographs of three Gothic runic inscriptions:
            >
            > http://www.gotica.de/
            >
            > The runes on the top spearhead (Dahmsdorf) are not very clear in
            > this picture, but read RANJA, which has been interpreted as a name
            > (for the spear) *Rannja "the one who puts to flight". The next
            > reads right-to-left TILARIDS, a name (of the owner?, maker?, the
            > spear?), perhaps "Good/appropriate Councel"--but some interpret
            TILA-
            > according to its modern German cognate Ziel "goal, target", and
            > RIDS as "rider", and the whole as "target-pursuer", "attacker".
            The
            > final picture here is probably the most famous Gothic inscription
            of
            > all, the golden neck-ring from Pietrioassa, Romania--GUTANI ? WI
            > HAILAG--interpreted: Gutane ? weih hailag "the Goths' ?, sacred
            > [and] holy." The single uncertain rune is thought to be a concept
            > rune, representing its own name, but was damaged when looters sawed
            > it in half. The grammar requires a neuter noun in the singlar.
            > Often taken to be O = 'oþal' "inheritance".
            >
            > These and others are discussed in an online book "Runes around the
            > North Sea and on the Continent AD 150-700; texts & contexts", by
            > Jantina Helena Looijenga. She interprets the damaged Pietrioassa
            > rune as 'jer' "year" (i.e. [good] harvest, a fruitful year). See
            > especially Chapter 5 for early south-east European inscriptions,
            > including the Letcani spindlewhorl also pictured in Peter
            > Heather's "The Goths". This is another Romanian find, and most
            > likely Gothic too.
            >
            > http://www.ub.rug.nl/eldoc/dis/arts/j.h.looijenga/
            >
            > Chapter 7, no. 11 is the Charnay brooch (fibula) inscription,
            > thought to be Burgundian--an East Germanic language similar to
            > Gothic. Along with the Kylver runes mentioned by Tore, this is one
            > of the earliest (near) complete futharks.
            >
            > Some pictures (early inscriptions from southern and eastern Europe:
            > Charnay, Kowel, Pietroassa, Breza, Bezenye--the others here are
            > later, from Viking times). Looijenga has suggested Lombardic
            > authorship in the case of the Breza futhark.
            >
            > http://www.arild-hauge.com/europe-rune.htm
            >
            > A discussion of many early inscriptions including some mentioned
            > above:
            >
            > http://www.nordic-life.org/nmh/runic.htm
            >
            > A German database of inscriptions in the Eldar Futhark, including
            > those attributed to the Goths.
            >
            > http://www.runenprojekt.uni-kiel.de/
            >
            > Hope there's something of interest in that lot.
            >
            > Llama Nom
          • klikabcd
            ... of ... if ... Gothic ... those ... that ... at
            Message 5 of 7 , Jun 27, 2005
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              --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "rhoomegaphi" <rhoomegaphi@y...>
              wrote:
              > Hi I haven't found a discussion here yet about the Gothic variety
              of
              > Runes. Is there an inscription somewhere that we could see how the
              > Goths wrote?
              >
              > I have found at www.omniglot.com something interesting about Gothic
              > Runes. Fraujo's Ahtu is the same as Freyja's Aett, and so is Teiws'
              > Ahtu to Tyr's Aett. Hagls' Ahtu however varies. Btw, I don't know
              if
              > it's accurate or correct to apply the same information to the
              Gothic
              > Runes as the Vikings did when we refer to each eight as an aett.
              >
              > I don't know if it is right or not to think that the Gothic Runes
              > have the same meanings or not. At www.omniglot.com, the Gothic
              > Alphabet is also posted. If one could find out the meanings of
              those
              > names, which most are similar, then we could learn the meanings of
              > those runes.
              >
              > I really like the way that the Gothic runes are different from the
              > Elder Futhark in some of their designs. I have done searches on the
              > Gothic Runes, but I keep getting the same erroneous information
              that
              > the Gothic Futhark is the same as the Elder Futhark, but with one
              > extra rune. This doesn't seem true according to the list of runes
              at
              > www.omniglot.com . I think I will e-mail both sources and ask for
              > references.
              >
              > But if anyone can contribute to this discussion, please do.
              >
              > Thanks.
            • ertydfh110
              Hello, While reading all the forum I´ve found this thread. I found it interesting because I´ve just post a thread about some slate stones found in Spain
              Message 6 of 7 , Oct 9, 2011
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                Hello,

                While reading all the forum I´ve found this thread. I found it interesting because I´ve just post a thread about some slate stones found in Spain which are supposed to contain numbers (at least that is what the spanish academics thought at the moment they studied it).

                Looking at:
                http://www.omniglot.com/writing/runic.htm

                I can see that there are similarities with some of the numers/letters? found in this visigothic slate stone:
                http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/696/visigothicwhiteboard.jpg/

                I have no idea of gothic, but is there a possibility that this visigothic stone contained runes?.

                I have personally taken the picture and in the museum where I took the photo told me that there are literally hundreds (probably more than 1.000) in boxes that are not shown to public.

                Regards.
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