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Re: a Gothic poem (comparatives, adverbs, ai)

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  • llama_nom
    ... Yes, superlatives can be declined as weak or strong adjectives, although there are no examples of the neuter ending -ata. But comparatives are only weak.
    Message 1 of 30 , May 23, 2005
      --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "rausch_roman" <aranwe@m...> wrote:
      > >hráinisto
      >
      > So it's -(i)st with regular adjective declension?

      Yes, superlatives can be declined as weak or strong adjectives,
      although there are no examples of the neuter ending -ata. But
      comparatives are only weak. Feminine comparatives have the ending -
      ei, like present participles. Joseph Wright "Grammar of the Gothic
      Language", p. 112- (section 243-); Wilhelm Braune "Gotische
      Grammatik" p. 71- (section 135-); Wilhelm Streitberg "Gotisches
      Elamentarbuch" p. 130- (section 188-).

      http://www.ling.upenn.edu/~kurisuto/germanic/aa_texts.html
      http://www.wulfila.be/lib/streitberg/1920/#REF-toc

      Did David Salo's lessons cover the different classes of adjective?
      As with nouns, adjectives can be divided into several types
      depending on what "stem vowel" (thematic vowel) they had in Proto
      Germanic. Sometimes this has been lost in Gothic,
      so 'hrains' "pure", < Gmc. xrainiz, looks the same in the
      masc.nom.sg. as 'laggs' "long", < Gmc. langaz. But for historical
      reasons they take somewhat different inflections. These are listed
      in all the grammars mentioned above. With other classes, the stem
      vowel survives in Gothic in the dictionary form,
      thus: 'hardus' "hard" < Gmc. xarðuz (but is lost in some of the
      other inflections).

      All types of adjective EXCEPT a-stems (the largest class) have -iz-
      in the comparative, and -ist- in the superlative.

      Some a-stems have -iz-, -ist- too. But others take the ending -oz-
      , -ost- for comparatives and superlatives respectively. Streitberg
      mentions a tendency for the -oz- to be used only where the first
      syllable of the adjective (not including prefixes) is long; -iz-
      where the first syllable is short. The only exception
      is 'hlasoza' "happier", and with the
      superlative 'lasiwostai' "weaker". But -iz-, -ist- is found both
      with a-stem adjectives with a long first syllable or a short one.
      According to Braune there aren't enough examples of -ost- (only two)
      to discern any rule.

      There are a few adjectives which form there comparative/superlative
      with a different root: mikils, maiza, maists "great, greater,
      greatest", but the declension is regular.



      >
      > >swa lagga swe ik im þiudo apaustaulus
      > >Here 'lagga' is actually an adjectival form
      >
      > Obviosly feminine singular.. Oh, right, German uses the same here:
      > 'lange', 'so lange wie' (as long as).
      > Has Gothic any distinct adverb formations (just out of curiosity)?


      That's right, feminine singular (accusative, same form as
      nominative). If you search at the Wulfila Project for _nauh leitil_
      you'll see that "a little while yet" appears as neuter or feminine:
      nauh leitila hveila; nauh leitil mel. Which I think are
      synonymous. At J 14,19 'nauh leitil' "for a little [while]" appears
      on its own with 'mel' assumed.

      http://www.wulfila.be/Corpus/Search.html

      Gothic does indeed have distinct adverb endings. Wright p. 166-
      (section 344-); Braune "Gotische Grammatik" p.105- (section 210-);
      Streitberg p. 133 (section 191-). The ending -ba is added to the
      stem vowel, with occasional irregularities (a-stem mikilaba; i-stem
      ga-temiba; ja-stem sunjaba; u-stem harduba, but also hardaba). The
      ending -o is added directly to the root. Sometimes Gothic uses an
      adjective where English or German would use an adverb, so 'ibuks
      galeiþan' "to go back", where 'ibuks' is declined as an a-stem
      adjective agreeing with the subject: managai galiþun siponje is
      ibukai "many of his disciples went back".

      As you'll see from the grammars there are various other adverbs not
      formed in these ways (e.g. 'ufta'). Some are formed from oblique
      cases of nouns. There are special endings for spacial adverbs
      indicating simple POSITION, or movement FROM or TO.


      > >The spelling 'hveila' here is the one used by the Wulfila Project.
      > >Although it doesn't reflect the sound as well as 'hw', it's useful
      > >because it preserves a distinction in the original Gothic alphabet
      > >and avoids certain potential confusions
      >
      > I see... (Though there should be no problem initially)


      True. The confusion comes where <h> is followed by <w> in
      compounds, 'þairhwakan' "stay awake [through the night]",
      versus 'sahvazuh saei' "whoever". But they use <hv> in all
      positions for consistency.



      >
      > >The form 'libaiþ' is because 'liban' is a Class 3 weak verb. Did
      > >he lessons cover weak verb conjugations? There are four
      altogether.
      >
      > No, at least it's not in the presented 9 lessons. But there are
      > however helpful conjugation charts. And there it reads -áiþ. Am
      > I
      > right in supposing that the pronounciation of _ai_ and _au_ is
      > deduced
      > only from analogies in related languages?
      > The diphtong is breaking up the rhyme scheme a bit...


      Ah, if only I knew... There are differing views on this. Evidence
      comes not only from other Gmc. languages, but from Latin and Greek
      spellings of Gothic names, also theoretically from Gothic loanwords
      that have survived in other languages: Romance, Slavonic, Baltic,
      even High German. (I'm sure there must be more information to be
      derived from this than I know about.) Also internal evidence in
      Gothic, such as parallels and how words behave when inflected, and
      which sounds were liable to be confused by later Gothic scribes.

      The Vienna-Salzburg Codex (10th century), actually tells us that the
      <ai> in Gothic 'libaida' "lived" was pronounced like a Latin long
      <e>. A Gothic or Vandalic prayer quoted in various garbled forms
      suggests that the stem vowel in another Class 3 weak verb 'arman'
      MIGHT also have been a monophthong. But the scribal garbling makes
      that far from certain. Another Latin source from North Africa gives
      the greeting/toast <eils> = Got. "hails", inplying a diphthong in
      this stressed position.

      A runic inscription from Romania (5th), the Pietrassa ring, has the
      form HAILAG, and Latin spellings of Gothic names also suggest a
      diphthong in stressed syllables (see Braune).

      A Burgundian runic inscription (6th century), the Charnay fibula: U
      [N]ÞF[I]NTHAI, probably 3rd person singular subjunctive present.
      However, runic spelling is just as likely to retain archaic
      spellings as the Roman of Gothic alphabets, and may even have been
      influenced at some stage by the Wulfilan tradition. Due to
      monophthongisation in NW Gmc., early Scandinavian inscriptions used
      AI for open [E:] in unstressed positions.

      For the moment, until I know better, I'm following the pronunciation
      scheme in the early sections of Wright's grammar with one
      difference, namely I use a long open [E:] (as in my British
      pronunciation of English <fair>) for <ai> in the inflections of Weak
      Class 3 verbs. Like long open <ä> in those pronunciations of German
      that distinguish it from long (close) <e>.


      >
      > Hvas ist þata hráinisto ana aírþai?
      > Snáiws saei lagga ni libáiþ,
      > Þanei himins uns ufta fragibiþ
      > Swê huzd miþ kaldamma haírtin?


      Looks good to me. I like the ambiguity of the last line. It's
      obvious to think that the snow has a cold heart, but I think
      grammatically it could also mean that it's given with a cold heart,
      that is in a cold-hearted way, compare: miþ gariudein jah inahein
      fetjandans sik "adording themselves with modesty and sobriety" (in a
      modest and sober way); iddjuh...miþ skeiman "and went with lamps".

      Llama Nom
    • rausch_roman
      ... Just WA- and JA-stems. At least so far. It looks like David Salo has cancelled the project. Thanks for your explanations concerning adverbs and
      Message 2 of 30 , Jun 1, 2005
        >Did David Salo's lessons cover the different classes of adjective?

        Just WA- and JA-stems. At least so far. It looks like David Salo has
        cancelled the project.

        Thanks for your explanations concerning adverbs and superlatives. I
        guess next time I'll look into Streitenberg's grammar first, before
        asking. Yet for a beginner like me a prescriptive source is much
        easier to digest than a descriptive one.

        >For the moment, until I know better, I'm following the pronunciation
        >scheme in the early sections of Wright's grammar with one
        >difference, namely I use a long open [E:] (as in my British
        >pronunciation of English <fair>) for <ai> in the inflections of Weak
        >Class 3 verbs.

        But this would be then libaíþ in the diacritic transcription..
        Do I get it right - even if "ai" had been a diphtong once in this
        ending it became a monophtong due to the unstressed position (as the
        stress remains on the stem)?

        >I like the ambiguity of the last line. It's
        >obvious to think that the snow has a cold heart, but I think
        >grammatically it could also mean that it's given with a cold heart,
        >that is in a cold-hearted way

        This wasn't even planned...
        I just thought of the cold-hearted way. :-)

        Second stanza:

        Aíþþáu þata blôþ, abrs jah ráuþs,
        Or the blood, mighty and red,

        So swêro rûna þize leike,
        The honoured secret [of] the bodies,

        Þata filugaláufo wein þize reike,
        The costly wine [of] the kingdoms,

        Þaim gudam sa máista sáuþs?
        To the gods the greatest sacrifice?
      • rausch_roman
        ... Just WA- and JA-stems, at least so far. It looks like David Salo has cancelled the project. Thanks a lot for your explanations concerning adverbs and
        Message 3 of 30 , Jun 5, 2005
          >Did David Salo's lessons cover the different classes of adjective?

          Just WA- and JA-stems, at least so far. It looks like David Salo has
          cancelled the project.

          Thanks a lot for your explanations concerning adverbs and
          superlatives. I guess next time I'll look into Streitenberg's grammar
          first, before asking. Yet for a beginner like me a prescriptive source
          is much easier to digest than a descriptive one.

          >For the moment, until I know better, I'm following the pronunciation
          >scheme in the early sections of Wright's grammar with one
          >difference, namely I use a long open [E:] (as in my British
          >pronunciation of English <fair>) for <ai> in the inflections of Weak
          >Class 3 verbs.

          But this would be then libaíþ in the diacritic transcription..
          Do I get it right - even if "ai" had been a diphtong once in this
          ending it became a monophtong due to the unstressed position (as the
          stress remains on the stem vowel)?

          >I like the ambiguity of the last line. It's
          >obvious to think that the snow has a cold heart, but I think
          >grammatically it could also mean that it's given with a cold heart,
          >that is in a cold-hearted way

          This wasn't even planned...
          I just thought of the cold-hearted way. :-)



          Second stanza:

          Aíþþáu þata blôþ, abrs jah ráuþs,
          Or the blood, mighty and red,

          So swêro rûna þize leike,
          The honoured secret [of] the bodies,

          Þata filugaláufo wein þize reike,
          The costly wine [of] the kingdoms,

          Þaim gudam sa máista sáuþs?
          To the gods the greatest sacrifice?
        • llama_nom
          ... I started out with Wright s grammar. I found it presented the paradigms without too many confusing digressions (although there is some discussion in each
          Message 4 of 30 , Jun 8, 2005
            --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "rausch_roman" <aranwe@m...> wrote:
            > >Did David Salo's lessons cover the different classes of adjective?
            >
            > Just WA- and JA-stems. At least so far...
            >...Yet for a beginner like me a prescriptive source is much
            > easier to digest than a descriptive one.


            I started out with Wright's grammar. I found it presented the
            paradigms without too many confusing digressions (although there is
            some discussion in each section on the origin of the Gothic forms).
            Alphabet and pronunciation are dealt with at the beginning. You can
            then skip the chapters on Indo-European and Germanic sound changes
            to get straight to the Gothic grammar itself. Braune's Gotische
            Grammatik has more notes on manuscript variations and references.
            Streitberg's Elementarbuch is probably easier to navigate online
            than these others currently.

            You might find this site useful too. Click on Wordcraft for
            paradigms, but note that in the masculine sg. of JA-stem
            adjectives, -jis,-e should read jis,eis. Which ending is used
            depends on the same rules as masc. JA-stem nouns.

            http://www.stormloader.com/carver/gutrazda/




            > >For the moment, until I know better, I'm following the
            pronunciation
            > >scheme in the early sections of Wright's grammar with one
            > >difference, namely I use a long open [E:] (as in my British
            > >pronunciation of English <fair>) for <ai> in the inflections of
            Weak
            > >Class 3 verbs.
            >
            > But this would be then libaíþ in the diacritic transcription..
            > Do I get it right - even if "ai" had been a diphtong once in this
            > ending it became a monophtong due to the unstressed position (as
            the
            > stress remains on the stem)?


            Actually <ai> with no diacritic at all, the long mid-open vowel as
            in 'saian' "to sow". But this is just my guess for the moment,
            following the instructions in the Vienna-Salzburg Codex. I don't
            know enough about the prehistory of Gothic to say whether it's
            scientifically justified to pronounce this as <ai> = /E:/ while
            still using /ai/ in other unstressed endings such as 'anstáis' "of
            grace". (Any advice welcome, folks...) I tend to leave off the
            diacritics altogether when typing, because there are so few words
            preserved of Gothic that you soon learn which sound is intended.
            But they are very handy to begin with. <e> and <o> can safely be
            written without length marks if you like since they always indicate
            a long vowel.

            Llama Nom
          • llama_nom
            ... 1) þata, etc. was used much less than the in English. With an unqualified noun like this, þata bloþ would probably mean that blood or this
            Message 5 of 30 , Jun 8, 2005
              >
              > Second stanza:
              >
              > Aíþþáu þata blôþ, abrs jah ráuþs,
              > Or the blood, mighty and red,


              1) þata, etc. was used much less than "the" in English. With an
              unqualified noun like this, 'þata bloþ' would probably mean "that
              blood" or "this blood", either blood already mentioned or "this
              blood [as opposed to some other blood]". With adjectives or other
              qualifiers it is sometimes used with a meaning more like "the".
              Also where an adjective is used substantively: 'sa frumista' "the
              first one". So I think you're alright with 'þata hrainisto' "the
              purest [thing]".

              2) abr jah rauþ, neuter to agree with bloþ. 'abrs' (=Gk. isxuros)
              may mean 'extreme' or 'severe'. It's one attestation is 'huhrus
              abrs' "a great/severe famine". The adverb 'abraba' "very, greatly,
              extremely" appears three times translating Gk. sfodra. Twice
              describing extreme fear, once extreme size: was auk mikils
              abraba "for it was very big". Look under 'sphodra' and 'ischuros'
              here:

              http://www.htmlbible.com/sacrednamebiblecom/kjvstrongs/STRINDEX.htm

              The latter does have "mighty" among the its meanings, along
              with "forceful, etc." Gothic 'mahteigs' is "mighty", "possible".


              3) As this is the second part of a option in a question, instead
              of 'aíþþáu' the regular word for "or", you would use: þáu "or", and
              attach the enclitic question-particle -u to the end of the next
              word, so:

              þáu bloþu, abr jah rauþ "or blood, mighty/extreme and red"



              >
              > So swêro rûna þize leike,
              > The honoured secret [of] the bodies,


              Two definite articles in such constructions are rare, but not
              unheard of (þize skalke þis maistins gudjins "of the servants of the
              chief priest" = EK TWN DOULWN TOU ARXIEREWS J 18,26). They all
              match the Greek as far as I know. More often Gothic diverges from
              the Greek by keeping the genitive article/demonstrative but dropping
              the other, as is the rule in Old English (in garda þis reikis "into
              the house of the ruler" = EIS THN OIKIAN TOU ARXONTOS; daurons þis
              hlaiwis "the door of the sepulchre" = TH QURA TOU MNHMEIOU).

              Gothic is also quite happy to omit both articles if the genitive
              noun is an abstraction, or not one specific previously mentioned
              thing, and where the genitive article has no demonstrative force
              (garehsn daupeinais "the plan of baptism"; dauþaus...staua "the
              judgement of death").

              Some more or less comparable examples with qualifiers: auhumists
              weiha þis ataþnjis "the high priest that same year" (ARXIEREUS TOU
              ENIAUTOU EKEINOU); þo afgudon haifst Sabailliaus jah
              Markailliaus "the ungodly strife of Sabellius and Marcellius"; þamma
              twa andwairþja attins jah sunaus "the two persons of the father and
              the son". So possibly: so swero rûna leike; so swero leike rûna.
              Or leaving out articles altogether: swera rûna leike.



              > Þata filugaláufo wein þize reike,
              > The costly wine [of] the kingdoms,

              filugalaubo, with a 'b'. In this word, the the 'f' would only
              appear when final, eg. in neuter sg. nom. and acc., or in the masc.
              nom. sg. filugalaufs. Actually the word is attested only once I
              see: J 12,3 filugalaubis, masc./neut. gen. sg. But also with
              similar meaning: galaubaim x1, galaubamma x2.

              http://www.wulfila.be/Corpus/Search.html

              The rule is that voiced fricatives were de-voiced at the end of a
              word, or before a voiceless consonant. This is usually reflected in
              the spelling of the manuscripts (except that final -g, -gs is always
              spelt thus), but there are also a fair few analogical spellings with
              final -b, bs; -d, ds (beside the regular -f, -fs; -þ, -þs).



              > Þaim gudam sa máista sáuþs?
              > To the gods the greatest sacrifice?


              I´d leave out 'þaim'. Suggested prose word order: sa gudam máista
              sáuþs.



              Hvas ist þata hráinisto ana aírþai?
              Snáiws saei lagga ni libáiþ,
              Þanei himins uns ufta fragibiþ
              Swê huzd miþ kaldamma haírtin?

              þau bloþu, abr jah ráuþ, (þáu bloþu mahteig rauþ,)
              swera rûna leike,
              wein galáuf reike,
              sa gudam máista sáuþs?

              Alternatives for line 2 (to make up for mucking up your rhyme;)
              lagga ni ligiþ "lie"
              lagga ni wisiþ "last"
              suns usleiþiþ "soon goes/disappears"


              How's that sound? I like the rhymes and alliteration, by the way.
              It keeps the three beat line this way (depending how you read it),
              but accelerates.

              Llama Nom
            • rausch_roman
              ... I m already using this chart, thanks anyway. :-) ... Well, the length marks always remind me of their quality. :-) ... Hmm.. Yes, it seems that abrs is
              Message 6 of 30 , Jun 28, 2005
                >You might find this site useful too. Click on Wordcraft for
                >paradigms, but note that in the masculine sg. of JA-stem
                >adjectives, -jis,-e should read jis,eis. Which ending is used
                >depends on the same rules as masc. JA-stem nouns.
                >http://www.stormloader.com/carver/gutrazda/

                I'm already using this chart, thanks anyway. :-)

                ><e> and <o> can safely be written without length
                >marks if you like since they always indicate a long vowel.

                Well, the length marks always remind me of their quality. :-)

                >'abrs' (=Gk. isxuros) may mean 'extreme' or 'severe'. It's one
                >attestation is 'huhrus abrs' "a great/severe famine". The adverb
                >'abraba' "very, greatly, extremely" appears three times translating
                >Gk. sfodra. Twice describing extreme fear, once extreme size

                >(þáu bloþu mahteig rauþ,)

                Hmm.. Yes, it seems that 'abrs' is slightly out of context here;
                'mahteigs' should be neutral enough.
                But I'd like to preserve 'jah' - it's one additional unstressed
                syllable in the first line; and this creates the acceleration in the
                following ones. So:
                'þáu bloþu, mahteig jah rauþ'

                >So possibly: so swero rûna leike; so swero leike rûna.
                >Or leaving out articles altogether: swera rûna leike.

                And what about: 'Swêra rûna þize leike' (or 'Rûna
                swêra þize leike')?
                This would be the same construction as: 'allans þiudinassuns
                þis
                midjungardis' - 'all the kingdoms of the world' (Luke 4:5) (by the
                way: 'Midgard'='world' in the Bible? Interesting..) The same goes
                for:
                'wein galáuf þize reike' (?)

                >filugalaubo, with a 'b'.
                >The rule is that voiced fricatives were de-voiced at the end of a
                >word, or before a voiceless consonant. This is usually reflected in
                >the spelling of the manuscripts

                Argh.. Forgotten about that..

                >Actually the word is attested only once I
                >see: J 12,3 filugalaubis, masc./neut. gen. sg. But also with
                >similar meaning: galaubaim x1, galaubamma x2.

                'Filu-galáufs' seems to be a fortification of 'galáufs'. But
                the
                latter, like 'in [...] wastjom galaubaim' - 'with [...] costly array'
                (Timothy I 2:9), is costly enough for my purpose, I think. Wright
                doesn't list 'galáufs', thanks for pointing it out.. Hm..
                The word seems to be pure Gothic, without cognates in other Germanic
                languages. I wonder whether it's connected to something ...
                galáubeins?

                >Alternatives for line 2 (to make up for mucking up your rhyme;)
                >lagga ni ligiþ "lie"
                >lagga ni wisiþ "last"
                >suns usleiþiþ "soon goes/disappears"

                Ah, great, the rhyme's hráin again. :-) I'll take 'lagga ni
                ligiþ',
                because of the alliteration.
              • llama_nom
                ... Good example. I ll have to think about this. I see that the article/demonstrative regularly appears also with fairhvus the world or this world .
                Message 7 of 30 , Jul 4, 2005
                  --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "rausch_roman" <aranwe@m...> wrote:

                  >
                  > >So possibly: so swero rûna leike; so swero leike rûna.
                  > >Or leaving out articles altogether: swera rûna leike.
                  >
                  > And what about: 'Swêra rûna þize leike' (or 'Rûna
                  > swêra þize leike')?
                  > This would be the same construction as: 'allans þiudinassuns
                  > þis
                  > midjungardis' - 'all the kingdoms of the world' (Luke 4:5) (by the
                  > way: 'Midgard'='world' in the Bible? Interesting..) The same goes
                  > for:
                  > 'wein galáuf þize reike' (?)

                  Good example. I'll have to think about this. I see that the
                  article/demonstrative regularly appears also with 'fairhvus' "the
                  world" or "this world". E.g. John 9,5 is translated "the" in the
                  King James Bible and the Good News Bible. It's translated "this" in
                  Ephesians 2,2 in the KJB, but "the" in the GNB:

                  A bi þizai aldai þis fairhvaus, bi reik waldufnjis luftaus
                  B bi þizai aldai þis aiwis, bi reik waldufnjis luftaus
                  KATA TON AIWNA TOU KOSMOU TOUTOU,
                  KATA TON ARXONTA THS ECOUSIAS TOU AEROS
                  "according to the course of this world,
                  according to the prince of the power of the air"

                  I wonder if we could paraphrase the Gothic: "according to [the
                  fashions/norms/mores of] this [particular] age/time/generation of
                  this [sinful physical] world [as opposed to the good spiritual
                  world]". Does the idiom imply belief in other worlds or at least an
                  alternative to the/this world? Or is that reading too much into
                  it? Maybe the use of an article is to some extent conventional with
                  words for "world".

                  At 1Cor 1,20 'handugein þis fairhvaus' THN SOFIAN TOU KOSMOU "the
                  wisdom of this world" is contrasted with the higher wisdom of God.
                  Similarly 2Cor 7,10 is a contrast, even though the KJB has "the
                  world". The "sorrow of the world" ´H...TOU KOSMOU LUPH 'þis
                  fairhvaus saurga" is being compared to 'so bi guþ saurga' "godly
                  sorrow". 2Cor 5,6 whilst we are at home in the body 'in þamma
                  leika' EN TW SWMATI, we are absent from the Lord. Again, "the" but
                  with a notion of contrast verging on "this". But Ephesians 1,4,
                  following the Greek, 'faur gasatein fairhvaus' KATABOLHS
                  KOSMOU "before the foundation of the world".

                  In the Skeireins, Marchand's translation has "this world" for 'þizos
                  manasedais'. Often (but not always) 'sa' "the" or "this" or "that"
                  has an implication that the noun in question isn't the only thing of
                  its kind, and therefore needs to be distinguished as "the particular
                  one": "the/this world we live in", etc., or else "the/that one just
                  mentioned", the one that we're already talking about?

                  Compare 1Cor 12,14 jaþ-þan leik [TO SWMA] nist ains liþus, ak
                  managai. 15 jabai qiþai fotus þatei ni im handus, ni im þis leikis
                  [TOU SWMATOS]...

                  Both instances are "the body" in English, but only the second "the"
                  is expressed in Gothic. Similarly recapitulative perhaps Gal 6,8.
                  The famous example of this is J 10,11 ik im hairdeis gods; hairdeis
                  sa goda saiwala seina lagjiþ faur lamba "I am the good sheperd; the
                  good shepherd lays down his life for [his] sheep", both = ´O POIMHN
                  ´O KALOS. J 8,32 sunja...so sunja, I think I already mentioned.
                  Greek and English have articles for both. Another interesting one,
                  J 18,37-38, where a recapitulative article appears even where Greek
                  has no article. Jesus says 'hvazuh saei ist sunjos' PAS ´O WN EK
                  THS ALHQEIAS "whoever is of the truth"; Pilot replies 'hva ist so
                  sunja' TI ESTIN ALHQEIA "what is truth" (no article in KJB "what is
                  truth", or GNB "and what is truth").

                  The other instances of 'þis leikis' x2 and 'þata leik' x4 are a
                  particular body, that of Jesus, except for J 6,63 þata leik [´H
                  SARC] ni boteiþ waiht "the flesh profiteth nothing" (i.e. flesh
                  doesn't do any good). This is interesting, because it's abstract,
                  much like your phrase, and doesn't seem to refer back to a recently
                  mentioned 'leik'. For "the body", "the flesh" with no article, see
                  J 6,52; J 8,15; Mt 6,22; Col2,19; R 7,15; R 7,25; R 8,1-10, and so
                  on. This seems to be the normal way. (All but the first of these
                  examples are abstract).




                  > The word seems to be pure Gothic, without cognates in other
                  Germanic
                  > languages. I wonder whether it's connected to something ...
                  > galáubeins?


                  And 'liufs' maybe (by ablaut)? Cf. the two meanings of MnE dear,
                  NHG teuer.
                • Roman Rausch
                  Here I m back again. :-) ... so ... Some are already made definite by a possessive pronoun or by alls , but yes, it seems to be clear that the
                  Message 8 of 30 , Aug 11, 2005
                    Here I'm back again. :-)

                    >see J 6,52; J 8,15; Mt 6,22; Col2,19; R 7,15; R 7,25; R 8,1-10, and
                    so
                    >on. This seems to be the normal way. (All but the first of these
                    >examples are abstract).

                    Some are already made definite by a possessive pronoun or by 'alls',
                    but yes, it seems to be clear that the article/demonstrative is
                    usually omitted in such cases. I've also stumbled upon _witôþ_
                    'law',
                    it's abstract and general most of the time and usually without
                    article/demonstrative as well.
                    'World' being a special case sounds logical, maybe it's a fixed
                    construction or a kind of fortification..


                    Third stanza:

                    Þáu fônu, sáiwala qiwa,
                    Or fire, [a] spirit [which is] quick,

                    Þaírh ita diwand waíhteis
                    By it die the things,

                    Akei rûna libáináis raíhtis,
                    Yet [a] secret [of] life indeed,

                    Gudane baírhta giba?
                    [Of] the gods [a] bright gift?


                    Is it possible to put an adjective after the noun? (Streitenberg's
                    syntax part isn't online, hmpf.. I looked up in Wright's grammar (pp.
                    182-194) but couldn't find anything concerning this point..) And if
                    not, what about a relative clause with omission of the copula, so:
                    _sáiwala soei qiwa [ist]_?

                    I'm not sure whether _raíhtis_ can be used this way.. Streitenberg
                    translates it with German 'nämlich, doch, etwa' which cannot be
                    used
                    in the meaning of English 'indeed', but my guide was Mat.9:37:
                    _asans
                    raihtis managa_ 'the harvest truly is plenteous' (seems by the way to
                    show the omission of 'to be'). In the German Bible translation it is
                    just 'the harvest is plenteous' (die Ernte ist gross).
                  • Jacob L. Bateman III
                    Does Gothic follow the Greek or Latin rules of grammar? In Classical Latin the verb at times has its position at the end of the sentence according to Wheelock.
                    Message 9 of 30 , Aug 12, 2005
                      Does Gothic follow the Greek or Latin rules of grammar? In Classical
                      Latin the verb at times has its position at the end of the sentence
                      according to Wheelock.
                      Le
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: "Roman Rausch" <aranwe@...>
                      To: <gothic-l@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2005 9:46 AM
                      Subject: [gothic-l] Re: a Gothic poem (verse 3)--syntax, word usage


                      Here I'm back again. :-)

                      >see J 6,52; J 8,15; Mt 6,22; Col2,19; R 7,15; R 7,25; R 8,1-10, and
                      so
                      >on. This seems to be the normal way. (All but the first of these
                      >examples are abstract).

                      Some are already made definite by a possessive pronoun or by 'alls',
                      but yes, it seems to be clear that the article/demonstrative is
                      usually omitted in such cases. I've also stumbled upon _witôþ_
                      'law',
                      it's abstract and general most of the time and usually without
                      article/demonstrative as well.
                      'World' being a special case sounds logical, maybe it's a fixed
                      construction or a kind of fortification..


                      Third stanza:

                      Þáu fônu, sáiwala qiwa,
                      Or fire, [a] spirit [which is] quick,

                      Þaírh ita diwand waíhteis
                      By it die the things,

                      Akei rûna libáináis raíhtis,
                      Yet [a] secret [of] life indeed,

                      Gudane baírhta giba?
                      [Of] the gods [a] bright gift?


                      Is it possible to put an adjective after the noun? (Streitenberg's
                      syntax part isn't online, hmpf.. I looked up in Wright's grammar (pp.
                      182-194) but couldn't find anything concerning this point..) And if
                      not, what about a relative clause with omission of the copula, so:
                      _sáiwala soei qiwa [ist]_?

                      I'm not sure whether _raíhtis_ can be used this way.. Streitenberg
                      translates it with German 'nämlich, doch, etwa' which cannot be
                      used
                      in the meaning of English 'indeed', but my guide was Mat.9:37:
                      _asans
                      raihtis managa_ 'the harvest truly is plenteous' (seems by the way to
                      show the omission of 'to be'). In the German Bible translation it is
                      just 'the harvest is plenteous' (die Ernte ist gross).









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                      to <gothic-l-unsubscribe@egroups.com>.
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                    • Jacob L. Bateman III
                      Perhaps to be is an understood word. So it is omitted. Le ... From: Roman Rausch To: Sent: Thursday, August 11,
                      Message 10 of 30 , Aug 12, 2005
                        Perhaps to be is an understood word. So it is omitted.
                        Le
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: "Roman Rausch" <aranwe@...>
                        To: <gothic-l@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2005 9:46 AM
                        Subject: [gothic-l] Re: a Gothic poem (verse 3)--syntax, word usage


                        Here I'm back again. :-)

                        >see J 6,52; J 8,15; Mt 6,22; Col2,19; R 7,15; R 7,25; R 8,1-10, and
                        so
                        >on. This seems to be the normal way. (All but the first of these
                        >examples are abstract).

                        Some are already made definite by a possessive pronoun or by 'alls',
                        but yes, it seems to be clear that the article/demonstrative is
                        usually omitted in such cases. I've also stumbled upon _witôþ_
                        'law',
                        it's abstract and general most of the time and usually without
                        article/demonstrative as well.
                        'World' being a special case sounds logical, maybe it's a fixed
                        construction or a kind of fortification..


                        Third stanza:

                        Þáu fônu, sáiwala qiwa,
                        Or fire, [a] spirit [which is] quick,

                        Þaírh ita diwand waíhteis
                        By it die the things,

                        Akei rûna libáináis raíhtis,
                        Yet [a] secret [of] life indeed,

                        Gudane baírhta giba?
                        [Of] the gods [a] bright gift?


                        Is it possible to put an adjective after the noun? (Streitenberg's
                        syntax part isn't online, hmpf.. I looked up in Wright's grammar (pp.
                        182-194) but couldn't find anything concerning this point..) And if
                        not, what about a relative clause with omission of the copula, so:
                        _sáiwala soei qiwa [ist]_?

                        I'm not sure whether _raíhtis_ can be used this way.. Streitenberg
                        translates it with German 'nämlich, doch, etwa' which cannot be
                        used
                        in the meaning of English 'indeed', but my guide was Mat.9:37:
                        _asans
                        raihtis managa_ 'the harvest truly is plenteous' (seems by the way to
                        show the omission of 'to be'). In the German Bible translation it is
                        just 'the harvest is plenteous' (die Ernte ist gross).









                        You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a blank email
                        to <gothic-l-unsubscribe@egroups.com>.
                        Yahoo! Groups Links
                      • llama_nom
                        ... to ... In Mt 9,37, the construction RAIHTIS...IÞ translates the Greek MEN...DE. In spite of the appearance of truly in the old Authorised Edition (King
                        Message 11 of 30 , Aug 14, 2005
                          --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "Roman Rausch" <aranwe@m...> wrote:

                          > I'm not sure whether _raíhtis_ can be used this way.. Streitenberg
                          > translates it with German 'nämlich, doch, etwa' which cannot be
                          > used
                          > in the meaning of English 'indeed', but my guide was Mat.9:37:
                          > _asans
                          > raihtis managa_ 'the harvest truly is plenteous' (seems by the way
                          to
                          > show the omission of 'to be'). In the German Bible translation it is
                          > just 'the harvest is plenteous' (die Ernte ist gross).


                          In Mt 9,37, the construction RAIHTIS...IÞ translates the Greek
                          MEN...DE. In spite of the appearance of "truly" in the old Authorised
                          Edition (King James Bible), I don't think present-day English would
                          have any equivalent to RAIHTIS here. The more modern-sounding Good
                          News Bible, has simply "the harvest is large, but there are few
                          workers to gather it in." The function of RAIHTIS here is just to
                          signal that this is the first part of a dichotome, a contrasting
                          pair. I suppose the real meaning is "on the one hand (auf der eine
                          Seite)..., while/but/and on the other (auf der anderen Seite) -- but
                          it's used much more than this would be in English, and presumably a
                          lot less emphatic. I guess you could translate this particular
                          instance "WHILE the harvest is large, the labourers are few," in which
                          case "while" alone translates the combination MEN...DE = RAIHTIS...IÞ.

                          2 Tim 1,10 gatairandins raihtis dauþau, iþ galiuhtjandins
                          libain "destroying death, but illuminating life"; Phil 1,15 sumai
                          raihtis...sumai þan "some...but others" TINES MEN...TINES DE. A
                          contrast is implied, but not necessarily a contradiction. The Latin
                          equivalent is QUIDEM...AUTEM. In Gothic, the second part may be
                          introduced with JAH or IÞ or AÞÞAN in first position, or ÞAN in second
                          position.


                          However, RAIHTIS has a number of other uses, some of which I think
                          might correspond English "indeed" and some to the German particles you
                          mention. Here's a scheme I made a while ago.


                          EMPHATIC
                          ----1. actually
                          ----2. X-self(-selves)
                          ----3. indeed
                          EXPLANITORY / SPECIFIC
                          ----4. you see
                          ----5. namely
                          ----6. for instance
                          SPECIFIC / CONTRASTING
                          ----7. on the one hand
                          ----8. rather
                          CONTRADICTORY
                          ----9. (contradicting ibai-question) yes actually = NHG doch!


                          But I won't go through it all just now, as I'm not entirely happy with
                          it. It can probably be rearranged more logically and accurately. And
                          I'd really like to understand these particles better. But here's a
                          sample:


                          1) "actually, in fact"

                          ni fraþjandans þatei sa RAIHTIS Fareisaius was (Sk 8,9)

                          without comprehending that he was indeed a Pharisee (Marchand)
                          they reasoned without thinking that he was namely a Pharisee (Bennett)
                          ohne zu beachten, dass er gerade ein Pharisäer war (Dietrich)
                          nicht bedenkend, dass er eben ein Pharisäer war (Kock)
                          utan att beakta att han just var en fareisalus (Ohlmarks)
                          så betänkte de icke, att just han var en Farisé (Lundgren)
                          bevroedden zij niet, dat deze, die wel degelijk een Farizeeër was (van
                          der Waals)

                          [ http://www.gotica.de/ ]

                          Any native speakers of these languages like to comment?
                          Marchand's "indeed" makes sense in the context and sounds right. I
                          wouldn't use "namely" here; it sounds a bit odd to me, but maybe it's
                          equivalent to the more colloquial "actually", which I think would
                          work. The idea is that he certainly was a Pharisee, in spite of what
                          they thought or suggested to the contrary. A US colloqualism: "He was
                          TOO a Pharisee!"



                          2) "[indeed] -self, -selves" (with names)

                          silba raihtis Daweid qiþiþ "David himself called him lord" - Mk 12,37
                          = Gk autos Daueid legei = Lat. ipse ergo David. Note that the Gothic
                          introduces an extra word with no equivalent in the Greek.

                          Moses auk raihtis qaþ "for Moses himself said" - Mk 7,0 = Gk Mwushs
                          gar eipen = Lat. enim.

                          unte wildedum qiman at izwis, ik raihtis Pawlus... "For we wanted to
                          return to you. In fact I Paul..." or "indeed, I myself..." - 1 Thess
                          2,18 = Gk egw men Paulos = Lat. ego quidem Paulus.

                          ...................................................



                          4) "you see", introducting an explanation

                          "because [you see]", "after all", colloquial "coz", archaic "for" = Gk
                          gar (supplying a reason or example), but sometimes no Gk equivalent.
                          Basically a causal conjunction, I suppose, but sometimes the causal
                          sense is vague; the thing being explained may just be the fact that
                          the speaker made their last statement, or something implied in the
                          last thing they said. In this sense RAIHTIS seems to overlap with AUK
                          and ALLIS which are also each used to translate Gk gar. Maybe there
                          is a subtle difference, but I haven't figured it out yet. All
                          suggestions welcome! RAIHTIS and ALLIS both seem to have their own
                          more specific spheres set of meanings besides this, while the very
                          frequent AUK seems to be almost entirely confined to this sense.

                          bihve kunnum thata? ik raihtis im sineigs "how shall I know if this is
                          so? I am an old man, you see" - L 1,8 = egw gar eimi presbuths
                          (Having been told startling news by the angel, Zacharias expresses
                          disbelief, then explains the reason for his doubt).

                          sumai raihtis ize fairraþro qemun "[because, after all] some of them
                          have come a long way." - Mk 8,3 = Gk kai tines autwn apo makroqen
                          eisin = Lat. quidam enim ex eis. (There is no preceding 'jah', = Gk
                          kai, in the Gothic).

                          unte raihtis L 1,1 (Gk epeidhper "since in fact / really / indeed".
                          Or maybe equivalent in sense to 4. "you see" as added to an
                          explanation?) Quote from an online source: "Forasmuch as
                          (epeidhper). Here alone in the N.T., though common in literary Attic.
                          Appears in the papyri. A triple compound (epei = since, dh =
                          admittedly true, per = intensive particle to emphasize importance)."
                          [ http://www.searchgodsword.org/com/rwp/print.cgi?
                          book=lu&chapter=001&verse=001 ]. This is interesting, as UNTE gives
                          the sense of causation "since, because", so perhaps RAIHTIS here =
                          dh "admittedly true". This makes me think of English phrases seeking
                          agreement like "isn't it" or "you know", but there are other examples
                          where I think RAIHTIS has a causal sense, but doesn't imply that the
                          information is already known and admitted.

                          ..................................................


                          8) in combination: þau raihtis, "RATHER [than]"

                          þau raihtis jains "rather than the other" or "as opposed to the other
                          one" - Lk 18,14 = Gk par' ekeinon = Lat. ab illo.




                          9) "YES ACTUALLY", "on the contrary" (contradicting a negative
                          question with ibai, which expects a negative answer) = NHG doch!, Fr
                          si!, Icelandic jú!

                          akei qiþa: ibai ni hausidedun? raihtis: und alla airþa galaiþ drunjus
                          ize 'but I say: they didn't hear, did they? Of course they did: The
                          sound of their voice went out to all the world' - R 10,18 (=Gk. menoun
                          ge).


                          Well, that's something to be going on with...

                          Llama Nom
                        • Jacob L. Bateman III
                          saiwala is the spirit or soul It resembles the OE word sawol soul? Is GAIST spirit. Le. ... From: Roman Rausch To:
                          Message 12 of 30 , Aug 14, 2005
                            saiwala is the spirit or soul It resembles the OE word sawol soul? Is GAIST
                            spirit.
                            Le.

                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: "Roman Rausch" <aranwe@...>
                            To: <gothic-l@yahoogroups.com>
                            Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2005 9:46 AM
                            Subject: [gothic-l] Re: a Gothic poem (verse 3)--syntax, word usage


                            Here I'm back again. :-)

                            >see J 6,52; J 8,15; Mt 6,22; Col2,19; R 7,15; R 7,25; R 8,1-10, and
                            so
                            >on. This seems to be the normal way. (All but the first of these
                            >examples are abstract).

                            Some are already made definite by a possessive pronoun or by 'alls',
                            but yes, it seems to be clear that the article/demonstrative is
                            usually omitted in such cases. I've also stumbled upon _witôþ_
                            'law',
                            it's abstract and general most of the time and usually without
                            article/demonstrative as well.
                            'World' being a special case sounds logical, maybe it's a fixed
                            construction or a kind of fortification..


                            Third stanza:

                            Þáu fônu, sáiwala qiwa,
                            Or fire, [a] spirit [which is] quick,

                            Þaírh ita diwand waíhteis
                            By it die the things,

                            Akei rûna libáináis raíhtis,
                            Yet [a] secret [of] life indeed,

                            Gudane baírhta giba?
                            [Of] the gods [a] bright gift?


                            Is it possible to put an adjective after the noun? (Streitenberg's
                            syntax part isn't online, hmpf.. I looked up in Wright's grammar (pp.
                            182-194) but couldn't find anything concerning this point..) And if
                            not, what about a relative clause with omission of the copula, so:
                            _sáiwala soei qiwa [ist]_?

                            I'm not sure whether _raíhtis_ can be used this way.. Streitenberg
                            translates it with German 'nämlich, doch, etwa' which cannot be
                            used
                            in the meaning of English 'indeed', but my guide was Mat.9:37:
                            _asans
                            raihtis managa_ 'the harvest truly is plenteous' (seems by the way to
                            show the omission of 'to be'). In the German Bible translation it is
                            just 'the harvest is plenteous' (die Ernte ist gross).









                            You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a blank email
                            to <gothic-l-unsubscribe@egroups.com>.
                            Yahoo! Groups Links
                          • llama_nom
                            ... You re getting better at this! Only two grammar suggestions and a semantic caution for you this time... The genitive plural of guþ god would be
                            Message 13 of 30 , Aug 15, 2005
                              --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "Roman Rausch" <aranwe@m...> wrote:

                              > Third stanza:
                              >
                              > Þáu fônu, sáiwala qiwa,
                              > Or fire, [a] spirit [which is] quick,
                              >
                              > Þaírh ita diwand waíhteis
                              > By it die the things,
                              >
                              > Akei rûna libáináis raíhtis,
                              > Yet [a] secret [of] life indeed,
                              >
                              > Gudane baírhta giba?
                              > [Of] the gods [a] bright gift?


                              You're getting better at this! Only two grammar suggestions and a
                              semantic caution for you this time... The genitive plural
                              of 'guþ' "god" would be 'gude', a neuter a-stem, but takes masculine
                              attributes in singular when applied to the Christian god. Perhaps
                              you were remembering *Gutane "of the Goths" (from the Pietroassa
                              inscription <gutani>)? The other thing is that RAIHTIS, except when
                              it's contradicting a question that expects a negative answer,
                              typically occurs in "second position" in the sentence, either
                              literally after the first word, or after the first
                              significant/stressed group of words. From the Skeireins:

                              at raihtis mann us missaleikom wistim ussatidamma,
                              us saiwalai raihtis jah leika

                              jah þata raihtis anasiunjo wato jah...

                              ufarþeihandei raihtis witodis hrainein, iþ...

                              þatei sa raihtis Fareisaius was

                              du leitilamma mela raihtis bruks was ... iþ...

                              In this last example, RAIHTIS seems to have strayed quite far into
                              the sentence, but in fact I think this still counts as "second
                              position", as 'du leitilamma mela' "for a little while" is all one
                              noun phrase. My feeling is that if a Gothic speaker had to make any
                              slight pause while saying this, they'd be more likely to do so
                              directly after RAIHTIS than before.


                              >
                              > Is it possible to put an adjective after the noun? (Streitenberg's
                              > syntax part isn't online, hmpf..


                              Sadly not. But it's available from Universitätsverlag Winter for
                              7.00 Euros [ https://www.innovativ-
                              media.de/inni/winter/deutsch/frame.htm ]. In fact they have a
                              number of Gothic titles:

                              Die gotische Bibel Streitberg, Wilhelm
                              Gotische Syntax. Streitberg, Wilhelm Stopp, Hugo
                              Gotische Texte. Kienle, Richard von
                              Gotisches etymologisches Wörterbuch. Holthausen, Ferdinand
                              Hispano-gotisches Namenbuch. Piel, Joseph M Kremer, Dieter
                              Nominale Wortbildung der gotischen Sprache. Casaretto, Antje





                              > I looked up in Wright's grammar (pp.
                              > 182-194) but couldn't find anything concerning this point..) And
                              if
                              > not, what about a relative clause with omission of the copula, so:
                              > _sáiwala soei qiwa [ist]_?



                              Seems fine to me. Acceptable poetic license. Though the omission
                              of the copula in the Bible is just in immitation of Greek, in all
                              the examples I've seen, 'apposition' is a device much used in Old
                              English poetry. That last sentence was an example of it. With
                              subordination instead of apposition, I could have said: "a device
                              which was much used..." Sentences in OE poetry can be very long and
                              loose, with much paratactic incrementation, so I think what you've
                              done is quite in keeping with that.


                              I take it you mean "quick" in the archaic English sense of "living" -
                              - in which case, that's right.


                              Gothic AHMA "spirit", = Gk. PNEUMA, is the word used for a
                              disembodied and disembodyable consciousness. But 'sailawa' may
                              still be appropriate to your poem: see what you think.

                              SAIWALA = Gk. PSUXH, in spite of its cognate "soul", often means
                              something more like "life". When someone lays down their life (i.e.
                              sacrifices it) for lambs, or loses their life to gain the world,
                              this is the noun used. 'saiwala', PSUXH, is something that would be
                              destroyed if you died and went to hell (Mt 10,28), so it's
                              not "soul" in the sense of an immortal spirit that lives on after
                              death. At Php 2,30, Paul praises Epaphroditus, saying that he had
                              no regard for his own life "ufarmunonds saiwalai seinai". Clealy
                              he's not saying he had no regard for his 'soul' -- if anything, the
                              opposite. In such instances, English bibles such as the King James
                              have "life".

                              Sometimes in the KJB, "soul" is used where Gothic has SAIWALA, Greek
                              PSUXH. This is where it refers to the emotional part of a living
                              person's mind, e.g. Mk 12,30 us allai saiwalai þeinai "with all thy
                              soul", that is: with all your heart, willingly and full of
                              enthusiasm. In this sense someone's 'saiwala' can be disturbed, or
                              pierced with a metaphorical sword of grief. L 1,45 jah qaþ Mariam:
                              mikileid saiwala meina fraujan, KJB "And Mary said, My soul doth
                              magnify the Lord"; Good News Bible "My heart praises the Lord".

                              In the Skeireins, 'saiwala' is the non-physical parts of a person,
                              contrasted with 'leik', and is translated "soul" by Marchand. It is
                              also something that was prepared for baptism by John's teaching.
                              These instances might be grouped together with the "mind as seat of
                              the emotions" definition. At Mk 12,33, 'saiwala' stands
                              alongside 'fraþi' and 'hairto': "to love him with all the heart, and
                              with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the
                              strength". But it's not clear just from this, to what extent these
                              are distinct entities or hyperbole.

                              Finally, SAIWALA and the adjective 'SAMA-SAIWALS' are used for
                              agreement/accord between people. þatei standiþ in ainamma ahmin,
                              ainai saiwalai samana arbaidjandans galaubeinai aiwaggeljons =
                              KJB: "that ye stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving
                              together for the faith of the gospel" (Php 1,27).

                              Llama Nom
                            • llama_nom
                              ... Re. my comments on the position of RAIHTIS, this might be okay actually, given: du leitilamma mela raihtis... But in favour of placing it after RUNA in
                              Message 14 of 30 , Aug 21, 2005
                                > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "Roman Rausch" <aranwe@m...>
                                wrote:
                                >

                                > >
                                > > Akei rûna libáináis raíhtis,
                                > > Yet [a] secret [of] life indeed,


                                Re. my comments on the position of RAIHTIS, this might be okay
                                actually, given: du leitilamma mela raihtis... But in favour of
                                placing it after RUNA in the middle of the genitive phrase, cf. in
                                mela raihtis þulainais (Sk 2,1). At 2Cor 10,10 it even comes
                                between demonstrative and noun, in contrast to the Greek: unte þos
                                raihtis bokos ´OTI ´AI EPISTOLAI MEN "for those letters".

                                GUDE "of gods" appears a few times in the compound 'galiugagude' "of
                                false gods".

                                Ll.N.
                              • Roman Rausch
                                ... Christian ... Oh, an a-stem.. Probably I keep confusing the two because both are _Got-_ in German.. ... Yes - archaic words favored in poetry, though this
                                Message 15 of 30 , Aug 24, 2005
                                  >The genitive plural of 'guþ' "god" would be 'gude', a neuter a-stem,
                                  >but takes masculine attributes in singular when applied to the
                                  Christian
                                  >god. Perhaps you were remembering *Gutane "of the Goths" (from the
                                  >Pietroassa inscription <gutani>)?

                                  Oh, an a-stem.. Probably I keep confusing the two because both are
                                  _Got-_ in German..

                                  >I take it you mean "quick" in the archaic English sense of "living" -
                                  >- in which case, that's right.

                                  Yes - archaic words favored in poetry, though this one will surely be
                                  misunderstood, so 'a living spirit' should be sufficient.

                                  Regarding _saiwala_:
                                  Is it possible that the concept of an immortal soul was applied to
                                  this word during the christianization? So the pagan Germanic tribes
                                  didn't know such a thing; at the early stage of chrisitiniaztion it
                                  was still used for a bit different things; but later, when the
                                  Catholic church became predominant its meaning was further restricted.
                                  Well, and my text isn't really Christian in content..

                                  >Sentences in OE poetry can be very long and
                                  >loose, with much paratactic incrementation, so I think what you've
                                  >done is quite in keeping with that.

                                  Well, except for the ending-rhymes instead of alliterantions. :-)

                                  >du leitilamma mela raihtis bruks was ... iþ...
                                  >In this last example, RAIHTIS seems to have strayed quite far into
                                  >the sentence, but in fact I think this still counts as "second
                                  position"

                                  It has also ventured farther than usual in _ikei ana andaugi raihtis
                                  hauns im in izwis_ 'who in presence am base among you' (Cor.II,10:1).
                                  But with the usual second position the only way to keep it in the end
                                  of the line seems to be a breaking up of the sentence over two lines..
                                  And this is getting too complicated, mhm.. let's try something else:

                                  Þaírh ita diwand mahteis,
                                  Akei galiuhtjiþ nahtins

                                  Or would _Jah sik galiuhtjand nahteis_ be also possible for the second
                                  line?
                                • Jacob L. Bateman III
                                  If the Romans and Greeks had a concept of the soul, I would bet the Goths did to. There was contact between the two, and I am certain a exchange of ideas.
                                  Message 16 of 30 , Aug 24, 2005
                                    If the Romans and Greeks had a concept of the soul, I would bet the
                                    Goths did to. There was contact between the two, and I am certain a exchange
                                    of ideas. Pneuma, and Psyche, are both Graeco-Roman. The word Gæst, and
                                    Sawol of the Old English were similar in meaning. If the English and the
                                    Saxons had the notion, then their relatives the Goths were more than likely
                                    too as well.
                                    Le
                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                    From: "Roman Rausch" <aranwe@...>
                                    To: <gothic-l@yahoogroups.com>
                                    Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2005 8:04 AM
                                    Subject: [gothic-l] Re: a Gothic poem (verse 3)--syntax, word usage


                                    >The genitive plural of 'guþ' "god" would be 'gude', a neuter a-stem,
                                    >but takes masculine attributes in singular when applied to the
                                    Christian
                                    >god. Perhaps you were remembering *Gutane "of the Goths" (from the
                                    >Pietroassa inscription <gutani>)?

                                    Oh, an a-stem.. Probably I keep confusing the two because both are
                                    _Got-_ in German..

                                    >I take it you mean "quick" in the archaic English sense of "living" -
                                    >- in which case, that's right.

                                    Yes - archaic words favored in poetry, though this one will surely be
                                    misunderstood, so 'a living spirit' should be sufficient.

                                    Regarding _saiwala_:
                                    Is it possible that the concept of an immortal soul was applied to
                                    this word during the christianization? So the pagan Germanic tribes
                                    didn't know such a thing; at the early stage of chrisitiniaztion it
                                    was still used for a bit different things; but later, when the
                                    Catholic church became predominant its meaning was further restricted.
                                    Well, and my text isn't really Christian in content..

                                    >Sentences in OE poetry can be very long and
                                    >loose, with much paratactic incrementation, so I think what you've
                                    >done is quite in keeping with that.

                                    Well, except for the ending-rhymes instead of alliterantions. :-)

                                    >du leitilamma mela raihtis bruks was ... iþ...
                                    >In this last example, RAIHTIS seems to have strayed quite far into
                                    >the sentence, but in fact I think this still counts as "second
                                    position"

                                    It has also ventured farther than usual in _ikei ana andaugi raihtis
                                    hauns im in izwis_ 'who in presence am base among you' (Cor.II,10:1).
                                    But with the usual second position the only way to keep it in the end
                                    of the line seems to be a breaking up of the sentence over two lines..
                                    And this is getting too complicated, mhm.. let's try something else:

                                    Þaírh ita diwand mahteis,
                                    Akei galiuhtjiþ nahtins

                                    Or would _Jah sik galiuhtjand nahteis_ be also possible for the second
                                    line?





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                                    to <gothic-l-unsubscribe@egroups.com>.
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                                  • llama_nom
                                    ... raihtis ... (Cor.II,10:1). Yes, although here the position of RAIHTIS matches exactly that MEN in the Greek original. To find out about Gothic word order
                                    Message 17 of 30 , Aug 26, 2005
                                      --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "Roman Rausch" <aranwe@m...> wrote:


                                      > It has also ventured farther than usual in _ikei ana andaugi
                                      raihtis
                                      > hauns im in izwis_ 'who in presence am base among you'
                                      (Cor.II,10:1).



                                      Yes, although here the position of RAIHTIS matches exactly that MEN
                                      in the Greek original. To find out about Gothic word order we
                                      really need examples were the Gothic diverges from the Greek, or
                                      where there is no Greek model to follow because Gothic needs more
                                      than one word to translate a single Greek word.




                                      > Þaírh ita diwand mahteis,
                                      > Akei galiuhtjiþ nahtins



                                      NAHTS is a feminine consonant stem, declined like BAURGS except that
                                      the dative plural is NAHTAM, perhaps by analogy with DAGAM. So,
                                      acc.pl. NAHTS. WAIHTS normally behaves like an i-stem, but the
                                      consonants stem acc.pl. WAIHTS is also attested (besides WAIHTINS).

                                      After a long root syllable, the verbal ending -jiþ usually becomes -
                                      eiþ. It's possible that GALIUHTEIÞ would mean "will light", cf.
                                      1Cor 4,5, and see my recent comments about tenses. If you have in
                                      mind the idea that it lights up the night as a general rule, it
                                      might be better as simply LIUHTEIÞ.



                                      > Or would _Jah sik galiuhtjand nahteis_ be also possible for the
                                      second
                                      > line?



                                      I would read this as "the nights light themselves up". Where SIK is
                                      used to translate the Greek middle voice, it comes immediately after
                                      the verb. That might be possible, though not attested for LIUHTJAN
                                      as far as I can see. Or you could use the passive: NAHTS
                                      LIUHTJANDA "[the] nights are illuminated / lit up". Or make up a
                                      Weak 4 inchoative verb: NAHTS LIUHTNAND "nights become light".

                                      Llama Nom
                                    • Le Bateman
                                      Isn t that form guð instead of guþ? Grimm seemed to think it was. He said the Goths dereived their name from guð. Which is the word for God. Le ... From:
                                      Message 18 of 30 , Aug 27, 2005
                                        Isn't that form guð instead of guþ? Grimm seemed to think it was. He said
                                        the Goths dereived their name from guð. Which is the word for God.
                                        Le
                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                        From: "Roman Rausch" <aranwe@...>
                                        To: <gothic-l@yahoogroups.com>
                                        Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2005 8:04 AM
                                        Subject: [gothic-l] Re: a Gothic poem (verse 3)--syntax, word usage


                                        >The genitive plural of 'guþ' "god" would be 'gude', a neuter a-stem,
                                        >but takes masculine attributes in singular when applied to the
                                        Christian
                                        >god. Perhaps you were remembering *Gutane "of the Goths" (from the
                                        >Pietroassa inscription <gutani>)?

                                        Oh, an a-stem.. Probably I keep confusing the two because both are
                                        _Got-_ in German..

                                        >I take it you mean "quick" in the archaic English sense of "living" -
                                        >- in which case, that's right.

                                        Yes - archaic words favored in poetry, though this one will surely be
                                        misunderstood, so 'a living spirit' should be sufficient.

                                        Regarding _saiwala_:
                                        Is it possible that the concept of an immortal soul was applied to
                                        this word during the christianization? So the pagan Germanic tribes
                                        didn't know such a thing; at the early stage of chrisitiniaztion it
                                        was still used for a bit different things; but later, when the
                                        Catholic church became predominant its meaning was further restricted.
                                        Well, and my text isn't really Christian in content..

                                        >Sentences in OE poetry can be very long and
                                        >loose, with much paratactic incrementation, so I think what you've
                                        >done is quite in keeping with that.

                                        Well, except for the ending-rhymes instead of alliterantions. :-)

                                        >du leitilamma mela raihtis bruks was ... iþ...
                                        >In this last example, RAIHTIS seems to have strayed quite far into
                                        >the sentence, but in fact I think this still counts as "second
                                        position"

                                        It has also ventured farther than usual in _ikei ana andaugi raihtis
                                        hauns im in izwis_ 'who in presence am base among you' (Cor.II,10:1).
                                        But with the usual second position the only way to keep it in the end
                                        of the line seems to be a breaking up of the sentence over two lines..
                                        And this is getting too complicated, mhm.. let's try something else:

                                        Þaírh ita diwand mahteis,
                                        Akei galiuhtjiþ nahtins

                                        Or would _Jah sik galiuhtjand nahteis_ be also possible for the second
                                        line?





                                        You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a blank email
                                        to <gothic-l-unsubscribe@egroups.com>.
                                        Yahoo! Groups Links
                                      • David Kiltz
                                        ... There is no ð in Gothic. At least, there is no special sign for it. The question of _grammatischer Wechsel_ (Verner s Law) is somewhat disputed. At any
                                        Message 19 of 30 , Aug 28, 2005
                                          On 28.08.2005, at 06:25, Le Bateman wrote:

                                          > Isn't that form guð instead of guþ? Grimm seemed to think it was.
                                          > He said
                                          > the Goths dereived their name from guð. Which is the word for God.
                                          > Le

                                          There is no ð in Gothic. At least, there is no special sign for it.
                                          The question of _grammatischer Wechsel_ (Verner's Law) is somewhat
                                          disputed. At any rate, Gothic shows the (most probably) voiceless
                                          interdental spirant þ. Grimm would refer to the Proto-Germanic form.

                                          David

                                          P.S. Could you give the reference, please ? That is, which of the
                                          Brüder Grimm and where it is said, so I can check it ? Thanks !
                                        • Le Bateman
                                          Volume I Grimm s Teutonic Mythology. Reprint of the 1876 edition. Le ... From: David Kiltz To: Sent: Sunday,
                                          Message 20 of 30 , Aug 30, 2005
                                            Volume I Grimm's Teutonic Mythology. Reprint of the 1876 edition.
                                            Le
                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                            From: "David Kiltz" <derdron@...>
                                            To: <gothic-l@yahoogroups.com>
                                            Sent: Sunday, August 28, 2005 11:54 PM
                                            Subject: Re: [gothic-l] Re: a Gothic poem (verse 3)--syntax, word usage



                                            On 28.08.2005, at 06:25, Le Bateman wrote:

                                            > Isn't that form guð instead of guþ? Grimm seemed to think it was.
                                            > He said
                                            > the Goths dereived their name from guð. Which is the word for God.
                                            > Le

                                            There is no ð in Gothic. At least, there is no special sign for it.
                                            The question of _grammatischer Wechsel_ (Verner's Law) is somewhat
                                            disputed. At any rate, Gothic shows the (most probably) voiceless
                                            interdental spirant þ. Grimm would refer to the Proto-Germanic form.

                                            David

                                            P.S. Could you give the reference, please ? That is, which of the
                                            Brüder Grimm and where it is said, so I can check it ? Thanks !







                                            You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a blank email
                                            to <gothic-l-unsubscribe@egroups.com>.
                                            Yahoo! Groups Links
                                          • Jacob L. Bateman III
                                            Does anyone know the url Sean Crist s Gothic Grammar page, I cannot seem to get it open. I wanted to make sure I had the right address.
                                            Message 21 of 30 , Aug 30, 2005
                                              Does anyone know the url Sean Crist's Gothic Grammar page, I cannot seem
                                              to get it open. I wanted to make sure I had the right address.
                                              www.ling.upenn.edu\~kurisuto\ germanic\goth_wright-about.html. I cannot open
                                              the page. If someone has the correct url please send it to me.
                                              Le
                                              ----- Original Message -----
                                              From: "David Kiltz" <derdron@...>
                                              To: <gothic-l@yahoogroups.com>
                                              Sent: Sunday, August 28, 2005 11:54 PM
                                              Subject: Re: [gothic-l] Re: a Gothic poem (verse 3)--syntax, word usage



                                              On 28.08.2005, at 06:25, Le Bateman wrote:

                                              > Isn't that form guð instead of guþ? Grimm seemed to think it was.
                                              > He said
                                              > the Goths dereived their name from guð. Which is the word for God.
                                              > Le

                                              There is no ð in Gothic. At least, there is no special sign for it.
                                              The question of _grammatischer Wechsel_ (Verner's Law) is somewhat
                                              disputed. At any rate, Gothic shows the (most probably) voiceless
                                              interdental spirant þ. Grimm would refer to the Proto-Germanic form.

                                              David

                                              P.S. Could you give the reference, please ? That is, which of the
                                              Brüder Grimm and where it is said, so I can check it ? Thanks !







                                              You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a blank email
                                              to <gothic-l-unsubscribe@egroups.com>.
                                              Yahoo! Groups Links
                                            • Jacob L. Bateman III
                                              Der Bruder Grimm war Jakob; Die Titel auf Das Buch war Die Teutonisch Mythologie. Ich weiss nicht Was das veil oder kapitel war. Gott Im Himmell! Die
                                              Message 22 of 30 , Aug 30, 2005
                                                Der Bruder Grimm war Jakob; Die Titel auf Das Buch war Die Teutonisch
                                                Mythologie. Ich weiss nicht Was das veil oder kapitel war. Gott Im
                                                Himmell! Die Titel auf Das Kapitel war Gott. Kapitel Ein Ich Glaube.
                                                Le
                                                ----- Original Message -----
                                                From: "David Kiltz" <derdron@...>
                                                To: <gothic-l@yahoogroups.com>
                                                Sent: Sunday, August 28, 2005 11:54 PM
                                                Subject: Re: [gothic-l] Re: a Gothic poem (verse 3)--syntax, word usage



                                                On 28.08.2005, at 06:25, Le Bateman wrote:

                                                > Isn't that form guð instead of guþ? Grimm seemed to think it was.
                                                > He said
                                                > the Goths dereived their name from guð. Which is the word for God.
                                                > Le

                                                There is no ð in Gothic. At least, there is no special sign for it.
                                                The question of _grammatischer Wechsel_ (Verner's Law) is somewhat
                                                disputed. At any rate, Gothic shows the (most probably) voiceless
                                                interdental spirant þ. Grimm would refer to the Proto-Germanic form.

                                                David

                                                P.S. Could you give the reference, please ? That is, which of the
                                                Brüder Grimm and where it is said, so I can check it ? Thanks !







                                                You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a blank email
                                                to <gothic-l-unsubscribe@egroups.com>.
                                                Yahoo! Groups Links
                                              • David Kiltz
                                                ... Thank you very much. llama/ Arthur: On the note of Gothic to dream . No, I can t find an attested form either in the Gothic corpus. However, next to
                                                Message 23 of 30 , Sep 2, 2005
                                                  On 31.08.2005, at 03:00, Le Bateman wrote:

                                                  > Volume I Grimm's Teutonic Mythology. Reprint of the 1876 edition.
                                                  > Le

                                                  Thank you very much.

                                                  llama/ Arthur:
                                                  On the note of Gothic 'to dream'. No, I can't find an attested form
                                                  either in the Gothic corpus. However, next to _*draum-, draugm-_
                                                  consider derivatives of PGerm. _*sweƀnaz_ (swebnaz_). In the OldEngl.
                                                  poem 'Dream of the Rood' we find the expression "...swefna ... hwaet
                                                  me gemaette", thus, a dream 'that met me'. So Arthur might, perhaps,
                                                  as well consider using something like _*swibns_ as 'dream'. As for
                                                  impersonal expressions like 'methinks/ mich dünkt', it should be
                                                  noted that in (archaizing) NHGerman it's 'mir träumt' with dative,
                                                  not accusative. In Icelandic it's the accusative e.g. 'mik dreymdi
                                                  draum'.

                                                  -David
                                                • llama_nom
                                                  Do you have access to Google? http://www.google.com It can such questions, and fast. If the above URL isn t working, change .com to .ca or .co.uk or the
                                                  Message 24 of 30 , Sep 3, 2005
                                                    Do you have access to Google?

                                                    http://www.google.com

                                                    It can such questions, and fast. If the above URL isn't working,
                                                    change ".com" to ".ca" or ".co.uk" or the code of some other
                                                    country. Or use another search engine [ http://www.lycos.com/ ], [
                                                    http://www.yahoo.com/ ], etc.

                                                    In case none of these options are available to you, for whatever
                                                    reason, try:

                                                    http://www.ling.upenn.edu/~kurisuto/germanic/aa_texts.html
                                                    http://www.ling.upenn.edu/~kurisuto/germanic/goth_wright_about.html

                                                    You had "wright-about" in place of "wright_about".

                                                    LN


                                                    --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "Jacob L. Bateman III"
                                                    <LeBateman@A...> wrote:
                                                    > Does anyone know the url Sean Crist's Gothic Grammar page, I
                                                    cannot seem
                                                    > to get it open. I wanted to make sure I had the right address.
                                                    > www.ling.upenn.edu\~kurisuto\ germanic\goth_wright-about.html. I
                                                    cannot open
                                                    > the page. If someone has the correct url please send it to me.
                                                    > Le
                                                  • llama_nom
                                                    It can answer such questions...
                                                    Message 25 of 30 , Sep 3, 2005
                                                      "It can answer such questions..." <---self-correction

                                                      > It can such questions,
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