Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

RE: [gothic-l] the word "the" as in "the house" or "the car"

Expand Messages
  • Егоров Владимир
    ************* Hi Peter! Maybe it is hard to believe for Spanish-speaking people, but the most probable origination of the Spanish definite article is just
    Message 1 of 14 , May 22, 2005
    • 0 Attachment
      *************
      Hi Peter!

      Maybe it is hard to believe for Spanish-speaking people,
      but the most probable origination of the Spanish definite
      article <el> is just from late (popular, vulgar) Latin
      rather than Arabic. I have mentioned that the Spanish form
      with the vowel <e> instead of <i> in Latin <illus> and
      Italian <il> might be provoked by Arabic <al/el>,
      but Francisc Czobor considers it (in his Re:) as
      a natural development within Spanish. Besides,
      he added a reasonable observation that the Spanish article
      changes by genders as in Latin and opposed to the Arabic
      article. Evolving this topic, I could make a note that
      the Spanish article does not assimilate its <l> before
      a consonant as the Arabic article does:
      (al -> ar (before <r>), -> as (before <s>), -> at (before <t>),
      etc.).
      You ask if am I "sure that Latin (il) wasn't borrowed from
      the Arabic (el), as well"? Ok, I am not sure,
      I wouldn't bet on it, this explanation is only most probable
      and acceptable.
      Perhaps I understood your question regarding <al> not exactly,
      but, in my understanding, you mean the merging of
      the preposition <a> with the article <el>. A main meaning
      of the preposition <a>, derivative from Latin <ad>, is just
      your "leaning towards". Also, using the preposition <a>
      in your sense "in the manner of" is typical for Romance
      (cf. <all'Italiano> -- in Italian (way), where <al> = a+il;
      <au Francais> - in French (way) where <au> = a+le).

      Vladimir






      -----Original Message-----
      From: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com [mailto:gothic-l@yahoogroups.com]On
      Behalf Of Peter Gutierrez
      Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2005 7:55 PM
      To: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: RE: [gothic-l] the word "the" as in "the house" or "the car"


      Hi Vladimir,

      Nice to meet you. Thanks for taking the time to
      respond to my questions. I always believed that the
      word (el)came from the arabic language. It's a
      surprise to hear that it didn't. Never-the-less, it's
      hard to believe that (el) didn't come from arabic in
      some shape or fashion, since nearly a fifth of the
      Spanish vocabulary is made up of arabic words. I made
      the association that if the Spanish word (al) was an
      Arabic word, then (el) must have been, as well. And
      since the Moors didn't use the Roman-Greek alphabet,
      that (al) and (el) must have been written out in the
      Roman-Greek Alphabet according to it's sound and
      meaning. (Al)is used in many arabic words in the
      Spanish vocabulary. Lastly, because these words are so
      short and simple and so widely used in Arabic names,
      that they must have come from the Arabic language. In
      any case, what can be said is that, in regards to the
      word (el), it was just a coincidence that the arabic
      language (el) was so like the Latin (il), and that
      both words had the exact same manner of usage in
      grammar. Are you sure that Latin (il) wasn't borrowed
      from the Arabic (el), as well? And also, would you
      agree that the word (al), meaning "leaning towards "
      or "in the manner of), is an arabic word? Al Jugo
      (Spanish): Au jus (French). I guess in English, Al
      Jugo means "In juice form" or "in the form of juice:"
      "the beef was cooked in juice form" or something like
      that. It's a strange word :)

      Peter Gutierrez
      --- еЗПТПЧ чМБДЙНЙТ <vegorov@...> wrote:
      > ********************
      > Hi Peter!
      >
      > Gothic had definite articles, i.e. analogues to
      > English <the>,
      > but, leaving this item to more competent members of
      > the Gothic-L,
      > I'd like to note that Spanish <el> is NOT an Arabic
      > word.
      > Otherwise we should accept Italian <il> and French
      > <le> also
      > as loan words from Arabic, which seems unbelievable.
      >
      > More probable (and widely accepted) is derivation
      > of the definite articles in all Romance languages
      > from Latin
      > <illus, illum, illa> 'this, that' for various
      > genders.
      > Thus origination of the Romance article is the same
      > as for
      > Germanic one (cf. English <the> from <this> or High
      > German
      > <der, das, die> from <dieser, dieses, diese> etc.).
      > Though the change of <i> in Italian <il> to <e> in
      > Spanish
      > <el> may reflect some Moorish influence.
      > By the way, the idea itself to put an article before
      > all nouns
      > may penetrate late Latin just from the Gothic,
      > Langobardic
      > or other Germanic languages.
      >
      > Vladimir
      >
      >
      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com
      > [mailto:gothic-l@yahoogroups.com]On
      > Behalf Of Peter Gutierrez
      > Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2005 9:42 AM
      > To: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: [gothic-l] the word "the" as in "the house"
      > or "the car"
      >
      >
      > Hi fellow lovers of the written language,
      >
      > Does anybody know what the visigoths might have used
      > for the word "the." Spain uses an arabic word for
      > "the" which is the word "EL." What the [edit] did
      > the
      > visigoths used prior to the moorish invasions? I
      > imagine that they used something from their old
      > gothic
      > language. Perhaps something akin to ostrogothic or
      > even something before they split up to become the
      > east
      > and west goths.
      >
      > Peter
      >
      > __________________________________________________
      > Do You Yahoo!?
      > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
      > protection around
      > http://mail.yahoo.com
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To
      > unsubscribe, send a blank email to
      > <gothic-l-unsubscribe@egroups.com>.
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
      > --------------------~-->
      > What would our lives be like without music, dance,
      > and theater?
      > Donate or volunteer in the arts today at Network for
      > Good!
      >
      http://us.click.yahoo.com/pkgkPB/SOnJAA/Zx0JAA/wWMplB/TM
      >
      --------------------------------------------------------------------~->
      >
      >
      > You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To
      > unsubscribe, send a blank email to
      > <gothic-l-unsubscribe@egroups.com>.
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      > gothic-l-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >



      Yahoo! Mail
      Stay connected, organized, and protected. Take the tour:
      http://tour.mail.yahoo.com/mailtour.html






      You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a blank email to <gothic-l-unsubscribe@egroups.com>.
      Yahoo! Groups Links
    Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.