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Re: [gothic-l] Re: Gothic, Yiddish and High German

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  • Tore Gannholm
    Hi! Have you read this. TALES ABOUT JEWISH KHAZARS IN THE BYZANTINE EMPIRE RESOLVE AN OLD DEBATE. During the past two centuries, one of the major controversies
    Message 1 of 24 , May 2, 2005
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      Hi!
      Have you read this.

      TALES ABOUT JEWISH KHAZARS IN THE BYZANTINE EMPIRE RESOLVE AN OLD
      DEBATE.

      During the past two centuries, one of the major controversies
      surrounding the kingdom of the Khazars was about the ultimate
      religion(s) and geographic destination(s) of its Jewish inhabitants.�
      Moses Shulvass, writing in The History of the Jewish People in 1982,
      indicated that the fate of the Khazarian Jews �basically remains an
      enigma.� (Shulvass 2:118)� Now, an exciting new discovery has at long
      last demonstrated the integration of specifically Jewish Khazars with
      other rabbinical Jews in an established Jewish community in a land
      outside of Khazaria itself.

      http://www.stavgard.com/extracts/jewishkhazars/default.htm

      Tore


      On May 2, 2005, at 9:26 PM, Debbie Williams wrote:

      > Aren't most of these languages considered to be of the Germanic
      > language� to beging with? I understand that we get the Germanic
      > languages from the Ancient Goth language. I've even found something of
      > the Goth language online.
      >
      > llama_nom <600cell@...> wrote:
      > Devil's Advocate mode: Apparent similarity isn't always the whole
      > story.� Languages relationships can't always be represented by a
      > neat branching family tree.� There may be parallel evolution, and a
      > cultural and geographical closeness can lead to similarities between
      > languages that were once more distant relations, while
      > a 'genetically' close relation can end up looking superficially very
      > different.� In mainland Scandinavia, for example, Norwegian has
      > undergone many developments in common with Danish and Swedish,
      > obscuring its one-time closer kinship with Icelandic.
      >
      > That said, Yiddish certainly seems VERY CLEARLY like a variety of
      > German to me.� I can't see any way in which it's more like Gothic
      > than any other German dialect.� So unless we have any specific
      > suggestions there's no reason to doubt the conventional view yet.
      >
      > Llama Nom


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Егоров Владимир
      ********************* Hi Tore! I guess there are no evidences of any exodus of Jews from Rhineland, neither narrative nor archaeological. Density of Jewish
      Message 2 of 24 , May 3, 2005
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        *********************

        Hi Tore!

        I guess there are no evidences of any exodus of Jews from Rhineland,
        neither narrative nor archaeological. Density of Jewish population
        along Upper Rhine during the crusades was insufficient to leave any
        distinct archaeological traces. However, the German language was in
        the central Europe of that time a universal communication means among
        poly-national merchants. The Khazar merchants were not excluded.
        All subsequent may be regarded only as a hypothesis.
        After the downfall of the Khazar Empire the masses of the Khazars,
        having spoken various languages and basically more or less related
        to commerce, might rush to the west along the well-known trade paths
        and settle in the places occupied by their predecessors, the Huns,
        Avars, Magyars, and the Khasars themselves (the so-called Kovars
        run away together with the Magyars after an unfortunate insurrection).
        A part of them remained in passing along the Great Nomad Path (e.g.
        in the region around Odessa), but most of them, like the predecessors,
        including the Magyars and Kovars, reached the path end in Panonia
        (the territory of the modern Hungary), which turned out a starting point
        for a future spreading, to the north (Poland) for example.
        But a significant share of multi-national resident population
        in that starting point should use the universal communication means
        of the central Europe, i.e. the Upper Rhine German idem Yiddish.
        Once more, all this is only a hypothesis.
        And an additional remark on your reference to "Vita Sancti Zotici".
        Like most of hagiographies, this "Vita" is a distinct apology of
        Christianity, and the Khazars are mentioned mainly
        as the representatives of a withstanding religion having passed
        to the True Faith due to a Miracle. The source is useless factually
        though nobody denies availability of Khazar communities in Byzantium
        and other countries, which might serve as staging posts in the Khazar
        spreading. In particular, Kiev was probably such a post.

        Vladimir




        -----Original Message-----
        From: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com [mailto:gothic-l@yahoogroups.com]On
        Behalf Of Tore Gannholm
        Sent: Saturday, April 30, 2005 1:50 PM
        To: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [gothic-l] Gothic, Yiddish and High German


        Hi,
        If your theory is right there must have been an exodus of Jews from the
        Rhineland during the Crusades.
        Is there any evidence?
        On the other hand Khazar is documented a Jewish converted state. Also
        documented imported rabbis.

        Tore

        On Apr 30, 2005, at 2:14 AM, Debbie Williams wrote:

        > Hmmmmmmm I've never heard of that connection. If you find out let me
        > know.
        >
        > macmaster@... wrote:Hi all,
        > I am curious if anyone knows anything about the Yiddish language and
        > its
        > possible ties to Gothic.
        > While the conventional model of the origins of Yiddish has it being
        > brought to eastern and central Europe from the Rhineland roughly at
        > the
        > time of the Crusades and makes it a medieval Rhenish dialect, an
        > acquaintance of mine asserts that the Yiddish language has more in
        > common
        > (in grammar, morphology, vocabulary, etc) with the East Germanic
        > languages
        > of the early middle ages than with the German of the Rhine.
        > Not reading Hebrew and knowing less than "ein bissel Yiddishe", I
        > can't
        > judge his hypothesis.  Maybe someone knows more and can speak on this?
        >
        > thanks,
        > Tom MacMaster
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
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      • Francisc Czobor
        Godana maurgin allaim ! I speak German and have seen Yiddish dictionaries and texts. Whitout taking into account convetional or unconventional theories, my
        Message 3 of 24 , May 4, 2005
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          Godana maurgin allaim !

          I speak German and have seen Yiddish dictionaries and texts. Whitout
          taking into account convetional or unconventional theories, my personal
          impression is that Yidish is basicly a High-German-type dialect with
          many Hebrew and Slavic words. The traits that differentiate it from
          literary German are found also in other High German dialects. So, as
          Llama Nom pointed out, if there's a connection between Yiddish and
          Gothic, it isn't evident at all.
          The connection of Yiddish with the Goths "of Khazaria" appears also
          in "The Thirteenth Tribe: The Khazar Empire and its Heritage", the
          controversial book of Arthur Koestler, who tries to demonstrate that
          the European Jews are mostly descendants of the Khazars. Regarding the
          origins of Yiddish, he quotes A.N. Poliak who believes that "the form
          of early Yiddish emerged in the zones possessed by the Goths of the
          Khazarian Crimea." Poliak considers that the Crimean Gothic vocabulary
          collected by Busbecq is related to the Middle-High-German element found
          in Yiddish, and this is due, in his oppinion, to the fact that the
          Crimean Goths keeped their contacts with ohter Germanic tribes which
          influenced their language.
          Indeed, the Crimean Gothic list collected by Busbecq, beside words that
          are clearly East Germanic, contains also words that look rather High
          German than Gothic (East Germanic). This fact was interpreted in
          different ways (influence of German-speaking communities settled in
          Eastern Europe, like the Transylvanian "Saxons", or distorted recording
          of East-Germanic words due to the influence of High German or Flemish,
          both spoken by Busbecq, or distorsion due to the publishers of Busbecq,
          etc.).

          Francisc
        • macmaster@riseup.net
          Is there any possibility - from a linguistic perspective - that the Crimean Goths might not be the descendants of Greutungian Goths but might, instead, be
          Message 4 of 24 , May 16, 2005
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            Is there any possibility - from a linguistic perspective - that the
            Crimean Goths might not be the descendants of Greutungian Goths but might,
            instead, be later Germanic immigrants to the region who adopted the name
            of the people who had preceded them in the same region?

            Tom MacMaster


            Francisc Czobor said:
            > Godana maurgin allaim !
            >
            > I speak German and have seen Yiddish dictionaries and texts. Whitout
            > taking into account convetional or unconventional theories, my personal
            > impression is that Yidish is basicly a High-German-type dialect with
            > many Hebrew and Slavic words. The traits that differentiate it from
            > literary German are found also in other High German dialects. So, as
            > Llama Nom pointed out, if there's a connection between Yiddish and
            > Gothic, it isn't evident at all.
            > The connection of Yiddish with the Goths "of Khazaria" appears
            > also
            > in "The Thirteenth Tribe: The Khazar Empire and its Heritage",
            > the
            > controversial book of Arthur Koestler, who tries to demonstrate that
            > the European Jews are mostly descendants of the Khazars. Regarding the
            > origins of Yiddish, he quotes A.N. Poliak who believes that "the
            > form
            > of early Yiddish emerged in the zones possessed by the Goths of the
            > Khazarian Crimea." Poliak considers that the Crimean Gothic
            > vocabulary
            > collected by Busbecq is related to the Middle-High-German element found
            > in Yiddish, and this is due, in his oppinion, to the fact that the
            > Crimean Goths keeped their contacts with ohter Germanic tribes which
            > influenced their language.
            > Indeed, the Crimean Gothic list collected by Busbecq, beside words that
            > are clearly East Germanic, contains also words that look rather High
            > German than Gothic (East Germanic). This fact was interpreted in
            > different ways (influence of German-speaking communities settled in
            > Eastern Europe, like the Transylvanian "Saxons", or distorted
            > recording
            > of East-Germanic words due to the influence of High German or Flemish,
            > both spoken by Busbecq, or distorsion due to the publishers of Busbecq,
            > etc.).
            >
            > Francisc
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
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            > email to .
            >
            >
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            > To visit your group on the web, go to:
            > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gothic-l/
            > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            > gothic-l-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
          • llama_nom
            Hi Tom, I ve heard this idea suggested, and I don t know enough about the history to rule out the possibility of later immigrants, but purely in linguistic
            Message 5 of 24 , May 21, 2005
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              Hi Tom,

              I've heard this idea suggested, and I don't know enough about the
              history to rule out the possibility of later immigrants, but purely
              in linguistic terms the language we call "Crimean Gothic"--whatever
              its relationship to the Gothic of the 4th century bible translation--
              must have been separated from the North and West Germanic dialects
              from a very early time (eg. the early Migration Era). Evidence for
              this:

              ado "egg", shows the development jj > dd, otherwise known only from
              Biblical Gothic.

              mine "moon", criten "cry". In North and West Germanic this sound
              was lowered, E: > æ: > a:. Whereas in Gothic it was increasingly
              raised e: > i:, as can be seen from the Gothic Bible, and spelling
              of East Gmc. names by Roman writers.

              schuos "bride" (probably miswritten for 'schnos'). In North and
              West Germanic the old sound /z/ remained voiced and became
              rhoticised, ultimately merging with /r/, cf. OE snoru, ON
              snør "daughter-in-law". In Gothic /z/ remained, or was devoiced at
              the end of a word.

              Llama Nom



              --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, macmaster@r... wrote:
              > Is there any possibility - from a linguistic perspective - that the
              > Crimean Goths might not be the descendants of Greutungian Goths
              but might,
              > instead, be later Germanic immigrants to the region who adopted
              the name
              > of the people who had preceded them in the same region?
              >
              > Tom MacMaster
            • Francisc Czobor
              Hi, Tom! There is evidence, both historical and linguistic, that the Crimean Goths are indeed descendants of Eastern (or Greutungian ) Goths. The historical
              Message 6 of 24 , May 23, 2005
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                Hi, Tom!

                There is evidence, both historical and linguistic, that the Crimean
                Goths are indeed descendants of Eastern (or "Greutungian") Goths.
                The historical evidence is better known by other members of this List.
                I will speak a little about the linguistic evidence.
                All that we know about the Crimean Gothic language is from the word
                list collected by Busbecq in the 16th century.

                In that list, there are words that are clearly East Germanic, and not
                German, for instance:
                salt "salt": Goth. salt, but Germ. Salz
                mine "moon": Goth. mena, but Germ. Mond
                brunna "well, fountain": Goth. brunna, but Germ. Brunnen
                schlipen "sleep": Goth. slepan, but Germ. schlafen
                ada "egg": Goth. *addja-, but Germ. Ei
                baar "child": Goth. barn, but Germ. Kind
                menus "flesh, meat": Goth. mimz, but Germ. Fleisch
                mycha "sword": Goth. mekeis, but Old Sax. maki
                ies "he": Goth. is, but. Germ. er
                tua "two": Goth. twa (neuter), but Germ. zwei
                tria "three": Goth. thrija (neuter), but Germ. drei
                fyder "four": Goth. fidwor, but Germ. vier

                On the other hand, there are words that look rather German than
                Gothic:
                reghen "rain": Germ. Regen, but Goth. rign
                bruder "brother": Germ. Bruder, but Goth. brothar
                schuuester "sister": Germ. Schwester, but Goth. swistar
                alt "old": Germ. alt, but Goth. altheis
                thurn "door": Germ. Tür, but Goth. daur
                tag "day": Germ. Tag, but Goth. dags
                kommen "come": Germ. kommen, but Goth. qiman [pronounced: kwiman]
                singhen "sing": Germ. singen, but Goth. siggwan [pronounced: singwan]
                lachen "laugh": Germ. lachen, but Goth. hlahjan
                geen "go": Germ. gehen, but Goth. gaggan
                ich "I": Germ. ich, but Goth. ik

                In conclusion, Crimean Gothic has a clearly East Germanic origin,
                being with high probability the descendant of an old Gothic dialect.

                For the words looking rather German than Gothic, there are three
                explanations:

                1. The Crimean Gothic of the Busbecq's list, being from the 16th
                century, can be considered a "modern" Germanic language, that
                underwent phonetic changes parallel to those observed in the other
                modern Germanic languages, compared with the 4th century's Wulfilan
                Gothic. Thus rign, brothar, siggwan could become reghen, bruder,
                singhen, without any German influence. Also the form "ich" for "I",
                similar to German, could be explained through internal changes in
                Crimean Gothic: the shift k>ch is observed also in a pure Gothic
                word: mekeis>mycha.
                But there are words that are indeed suspiciously German-looking, like
                alt, tag, kommen, lachen, geen. For these cases, the two other
                explanations are applicable:

                2. Busbecq, being a speaker of Dutch (Flemish) and German, was
                tempted to give a more German form to words that sounded familiar to
                him: it is possible that where his Crimean informers said something
                like [dag] or [kwemen], he wrote down "tag", "kommen".

                3. It is also possible that the 16th century's Crimean Goths were
                mixed with later German immigrants, and the language recorded by
                Busbecq was a sort of "mixed language", Gothic and German. This would
                explain also why German merchants shipwrecked in Crimea in the 14th-
                15th centuries could make themselves understood in German with local
                people.

                Francisc


                --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, macmaster@r... wrote:
                > Is there any possibility - from a linguistic perspective - that the
                > Crimean Goths might not be the descendants of Greutungian Goths but
                might,
                > instead, be later Germanic immigrants to the region who adopted the
                name
                > of the people who had preceded them in the same region?
                >
                > Tom MacMaster
                >
              • llama_nom
                Hello all, Here is my attempt to summarise a paper by Ottar Grønvik on Crimean Gothic. Hope I haven t garbled anything or inadvertantly misrepresented any of
                Message 7 of 24 , May 23, 2005
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                  Hello all,

                  Here is my attempt to summarise a paper by Ottar Grønvik on Crimean
                  Gothic. Hope I haven't garbled anything or inadvertantly
                  misrepresented any of Grønvik's ideas. I've only commented on a
                  couple of points, as I found I just don't know enough yet about the
                  very early development of Germanic to make up my own mind on the
                  overall argument that Crimean Gothic is a West Germanic dialect that
                  separated from the WG continuum at some time before c. 200 AD and
                  after that underwent sound changes in common with the language that
                  evolved into Biblical Gothic. For phonetic spellings I've used the
                  SAMPA notation:

                  http://www.phon.ucl.ac.uk/home/sampa/home.htm

                  Otherwise I've followed the spellings in the article.

                  Llama Nom



                  Ottar Grønvik: "Die dialektgeographische Stelling des Krimgotischen
                  und die krimgotische cantilena."

                  Features of Crimean Gothic:

                  1) No i/j mutation (thus agreeing with Gothic against NWG).
                  2) z > s finally, as in Gothic (*schnos v. OE snoru, ON snør)-- good
                  evidence for treatment of Gmc. /z/, as Busbecq apparently didn't
                  recognise the word as Germanic.
                  3) u & i preserved before nasal + cons., or before high vowel in
                  following syllable (gira < *giri), otherwise lowered in same
                  circumstances as in NWG (boga, *schnos v. *thuru; schwester v.
                  wintch).
                  4) Raising of e > i before u/w irregular (seuene, fyder), but so too
                  in other dialects.
                  5) ð > d, as in WG, and subsequently devoiced (plut). Initially and
                  in voiced medial positions þ > d. But þ > þ, spelt <tz>, finally
                  and medially in voiceless environment. Due to frequent occurrence
                  as enclitic in such positions, the pronoun tzo `thou' retained the
                  sound.
                  6) Unstressed vowels > @ (schwa), represented by random vowel
                  letters, except for Old Crimean Gothic o:n > u:, spelt <ou>
                  (kadariou = /kad@rju:/ < *ka(n)dario:n < Lat. centurio:n-).
                  7) /n/ lost after long vowel (kadariou), but kept after short (verb
                  inf. ending -en).
                  8) i: > i: u: > u: e: > i: o: > u: eu > i: iu >
                  i:, y:? ai > e: au > o:
                  9) initial /h/ lost.

                  (Thinks: Point (3) assumes that a-umlaut etc. was a NWG innovation.
                  Question, can we tell whether Gothic was unaffected by this change,
                  or just lost the distinction between these sounds at a later date?
                  Grønvik doesn't bring into the discussion the letter names from the
                  Vienna-Salzburg codex: chozma, geuua, enguz.)

                  Regarding /i:/ from Gmc. e:1, Grønvik says 4.4.2.3.1. that /e:/
                  > /a:/ very early in NG but not among the West Germanic people of
                  the Elbe region till the end of the 2nd century AD. Later still
                  among the Franks in the vicinity of the Rhine. Regarding ð > d,
                  Grønvik says 4.4.2.3.2 that this a common WG development, ? 2nd c.
                  or earlier. Regarding rhoticism of Gmc /z/, Grønvik says 4.4.2.3.4
                  that WG probably retained /z/ before 200. The final devoicing he
                  sees as a Migration Era sound change shared by Crimean and Biblical
                  Gothic. Similarly with the monophthongisation of /ai/ and /au/.

                  (The full reasoning behind these assumptions is not explained, but I
                  gather there are some Latin inscriptions to West Germanic goddesses
                  (`Matrons') which preserve a Germanic dative plural ending: Aflims,
                  Vatvims, Saitchamimi(s).)

                  10) warthata = /wartt@te/ < warhta + preterite ending repeated by
                  analogy.
                  11) /al:/ lapis = ON hallr, OE heall, rather than Got. hallus.
                  12) thurn = *thuru = /dur@/, old dual form cognate with OE, OS duru,
                  rather than Got. daur, daurons.
                  _______________________________________________________


                  Sequence of changes acc. Grønvik:

                  1. NWG
                  u > u / o
                  e > e / i

                  2. WG to 200
                  æ: > e:
                  d, ð > d
                  z > z
                  lþ > lþ
                  þ > þ, ð
                  e – u/w > i
                  xj > xxj
                  ngw > ng

                  3. Pre-Gothic
                  jj > ddj
                  Reduction of unstressed vowels
                  Devoicing of final fricatives
                  Monophthongisation of ai, au > E:, O:
                  rB > rb (dorbiza)
                  No i-umlaut

                  4. Old Crimean Gothic + Gothic 350 – 550
                  iu > y:
                  eu > e:
                  e:, o: > i:, u:
                  E:, O: > e:, o:
                  Further reduction of unstressed vowels
                  (þ >) [ð], [d]
                  xt, xs > tt, ss
                  sk > sch
                  sw, sl, sn > schw, schl, schn
                  b, d, g devoiced initially
                  h-, -h- > Ø


                  The song! He reconstructs/interprets thus, explaining his reasoning
                  in full detail. I've written it out in SAMPA phonetic notation
                  after.

                  wara wara ing[a]dolou
                  scu te gira galtzou
                  heemisclep dorbize ea

                  war@ war@ in-gad@lu: (in-gad@lu)
                  Su: t@ gir@ galtTu: (galTu:)
                  he:m@SlE:pp dorb@z@ E@

                  Guard (watch over / look after / protect) the very beautiful one.
                  You gave (paid) desirable shoes.
                  Let the hungry horse out graze at home.

                  The 1st & 3rd lines are taken to be commands/requests.

                  scu = *schu `set of [horse] shoes' < gaskohi `pair of shoes' (as in
                  Biblical Gothic, but not specifically EG).

                  *schlep `let loose to graze' he suggests is a loan from ON sleppa
                  (while also considering a possible WG etymology). Following Norse
                  grammar he takes <dorbize> as a dative f. sg. adjective, pointing
                  out that the pronominal-style ending agrees with WG rather than
                  Biblical Gothic. He also considers (as less likely) the possibility
                  that this is a comparative.

                  <te> is interpreted as WG, although acc. G's phonology it could
                  equally apply be from a Gothic-like /du/.

                  The situation of the song is compared to the opening lines of
                  Norwegian heroic ballads. As a less likely possibility he suggests
                  a children's rhyme.
                • macmaster@riseup.net
                  I would assume something like the last: between the end of the first Greutungian state in 370 and Busbecq s day, there certainly were many other Germanic
                  Message 8 of 24 , May 23, 2005
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                    I would assume something like the last: between the end of the first
                    Greutungian state in 370 and Busbecq's day, there certainly were many
                    other Germanic speaking peoples in the region (Gepids and Heruli, to
                    Varangians and Transylvanian Saxons) so surely there were some influences.

                    Speaking of intelligibility, does anyone have an idea of how easy it would
                    have been for a monoglot Visigoth in c.500 to understand a monoglot Frank,
                    Saxon, or Vandal?
                    Also, would the Wulfilan Bible have been readily understood by
                    contemporary non-Goths (again, Vandals, Burgundians, Lombards, Franks,
                    Saxons, etc)?

                    Or were the differences between the Germanic dialects already a barrier to
                    ready communication?

                    Tom MacMaster
                    Francisc Czobor said:
                    > Hi, Tom!
                    >
                    > There is evidence, both historical and linguistic, that the Crimean
                    > Goths are indeed descendants of Eastern (or "Greutungian")
                    > Goths.
                    > The historical evidence is better known by other members of this List.
                    > I will speak a little about the linguistic evidence.
                    > All that we know about the Crimean Gothic language is from the word
                    > list collected by Busbecq in the 16th century.
                    >
                    > In that list, there are words that are clearly East Germanic, and not
                    > German, for instance:
                    > salt "salt": Goth. salt, but Germ. Salz
                    > mine "moon": Goth. mena, but Germ. Mond
                    > brunna "well, fountain": Goth. brunna, but Germ. Brunnen
                    > schlipen "sleep": Goth. slepan, but Germ. schlafen
                    > ada "egg": Goth. *addja-, but Germ. Ei
                    > baar "child": Goth. barn, but Germ. Kind
                    > menus "flesh, meat": Goth. mimz, but Germ. Fleisch
                    > mycha "sword": Goth. mekeis, but Old Sax. maki
                    > ies "he": Goth. is, but. Germ. er
                    > tua "two": Goth. twa (neuter), but Germ. zwei
                    > tria "three": Goth. thrija (neuter), but Germ. drei
                    > fyder "four": Goth. fidwor, but Germ. vier
                    >
                    > On the other hand, there are words that look rather German than
                    > Gothic:
                    > reghen "rain": Germ. Regen, but Goth. rign
                    > bruder "brother": Germ. Bruder, but Goth. brothar
                    > schuuester "sister": Germ. Schwester, but Goth. swistar
                    > alt "old": Germ. alt, but Goth. altheis
                    > thurn "door": Germ. Tür, but Goth. daur
                    > tag "day": Germ. Tag, but Goth. dags
                    > kommen "come": Germ. kommen, but Goth. qiman [pronounced:
                    > kwiman]
                    > singhen "sing": Germ. singen, but Goth. siggwan [pronounced:
                    > singwan]
                    > lachen "laugh": Germ. lachen, but Goth. hlahjan
                    > geen "go": Germ. gehen, but Goth. gaggan
                    > ich "I": Germ. ich, but Goth. ik
                    >
                    > In conclusion, Crimean Gothic has a clearly East Germanic origin,
                    > being with high probability the descendant of an old Gothic dialect.
                    >
                    > For the words looking rather German than Gothic, there are three
                    > explanations:
                    >
                    > 1. The Crimean Gothic of the Busbecq's list, being from the 16th
                    > century, can be considered a "modern" Germanic language, that
                    > underwent phonetic changes parallel to those observed in the other
                    > modern Germanic languages, compared with the 4th century's Wulfilan
                    > Gothic. Thus rign, brothar, siggwan could become reghen, bruder,
                    > singhen, without any German influence. Also the form "ich" for
                    > "I",
                    > similar to German, could be explained through internal changes in
                    > Crimean Gothic: the shift k>ch is observed also in a pure Gothic
                    > word: mekeis>mycha.
                    > But there are words that are indeed suspiciously German-looking, like
                    > alt, tag, kommen, lachen, geen. For these cases, the two other
                    > explanations are applicable:
                    >
                    > 2. Busbecq, being a speaker of Dutch (Flemish) and German, was
                    > tempted to give a more German form to words that sounded familiar to
                    > him: it is possible that where his Crimean informers said something
                    > like [dag] or [kwemen], he wrote down "tag",
                    > "kommen".
                    >
                    > 3. It is also possible that the 16th century's Crimean Goths were
                    > mixed with later German immigrants, and the language recorded by
                    > Busbecq was a sort of "mixed language", Gothic and German. This
                    > would
                    > explain also why German merchants shipwrecked in Crimea in the 14th-
                    > 15th centuries could make themselves understood in German with local
                    > people.
                    >
                    > Francisc
                    >
                    >
                    > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, macmaster@r... wrote:
                    > > Is there any possibility - from a linguistic perspective - that the
                    > > Crimean Goths might not be the descendants of Greutungian Goths but
                    > might,
                    > > instead, be later Germanic immigrants to the region who adopted the
                    > name
                    > > of the people who had preceded them in the same region?
                    > >
                    > > Tom MacMaster
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a blank
                    > email to .
                    >
                    >
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                  • llama_nom
                    ... it would ... monoglot Frank, ... Franks, ... barrier to ... This is an interesting question, but hard to answer because of the scantness of evidence. One
                    Message 9 of 24 , May 29, 2005
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                      --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, macmaster@r... wrote:

                      > Speaking of intelligibility, does anyone have an idea of how easy
                      it would
                      > have been for a monoglot Visigoth in c.500 to understand a
                      monoglot Frank,
                      > Saxon, or Vandal?
                      > Also, would the Wulfilan Bible have been readily understood by
                      > contemporary non-Goths (again, Vandals, Burgundians, Lombards,
                      Franks,
                      > Saxons, etc)?
                      >
                      > Or were the differences between the Germanic dialects already a
                      barrier to
                      > ready communication?

                      This is an interesting question, but hard to answer because of the
                      scantness of evidence. One test might be to compare the Old High
                      German translation of Tatien's Gospel Harmony (East Franconian,
                      early 9th c.) with the various Gothic remains 4th-6th c. Another
                      point of comparison is the early continental Germanic runic
                      inscriptions, contemporary with the Gothic manuscripts.

                      http://users.belgacom.net/chardic/html/tatien.html
                      http://www.ub.rug.nl/eldoc/dis/arts/j.h.looijenga/
                      (see ch. 7)

                      In the case of Franks and Saxons, my feeling is that there would
                      have been some barrier c. 500, but a rather flexible one. I
                      wouldn't like to quantify that because i just don't know enough, but
                      the situation may have been similar to that between Old English and
                      Old Norse in Viking times, as imagined by Þórhallur Eyþórsson.

                      http://malfridur.ismennt.is/vor2002/vol-18-1-21-26-thorhallur-eyj.htm

                      He describes a situation where two people speaking carefully to each
                      other in their respective dialects, trying to make things clear,
                      could have understood each other fairly well. I suspect that even a
                      little familiarity with the strange accent would have gone a long
                      way to clarifying things, as the grammar was so similar and much of
                      the vocabulary. What to a stay-at-home Goth might sound at first
                      quite incomprehensible could quickly morph into merely very broad
                      dialect in the ears of the traveller.

                      Even where the OHG and Gothic versions of the gospels differ in
                      vocabulary they would sometimes still have been comprehensible, e.g.
                      where OHG has 'mittilgart' "world" for Got. 'manaseþs', Goths would
                      have recognised their own word 'midjungards' with a similar
                      synonymous(?) meaning. On the other hand it's possible that our
                      hypothetical Goth overhearing a conversation between two Franks
                      could miss a great deal. Bits would be perfectly clear, but if
                      enough unfamilar words chanced to appear, or even just one or two in
                      crucial places, a lot of meaning could get lost.

                      Actually even a stay-at-home resident of the Dark Ages may have
                      gained experience of the Germanic world at large through the mass
                      medium of travelling poets, and travelling poems. The Old English
                      poem Widsith is narrated by a fictional 'scop' (professional poet)
                      who tells of his journey to see the Gothic king Eormanric, and of
                      his meetings with just about every other famous ruler in legendary
                      history along the way. We also know that many stories passed from
                      one end of Germania to the other in those days. In this way Gothic
                      legends may have survived the extinction of the Goths. There is an
                      OE poem--Genesis A--known to have been composed originally in Old
                      Saxon (the language of Northern Germany), and some early Norse
                      poetry recorded in the Middle Ages--Hlöðskviða in Hervarar saga--
                      shows evidence of continental Germanic style and language. Poets
                      and connoisseurs of poetry, the nobility and people associated with
                      them, ambassadors, merchants, missionaries, soldiers, etc. would all
                      have had more oportunity to come into contect with the major
                      Germanic dialects and gain familiarity with them.

                      The Burgundians and Vandals are though to have spoken East Germanic
                      dialects much like the the Goths. In fact a Latin epigram from
                      North Africa mocks Vandal lack of (Latin) culture, describing their
                      language as Gothic.

                      http://www.univie.ac.at/indogermanistik/quellentexte.cgi?5
                      http://online.mq.edu.au/pub/AHST233/home.htm
                      http://tolklang.quettar.org/elfling-mirror/017nn/01791

                      But this isn't very much evidence to go on. The Arian Christians of
                      North Africa are said in another Latin source to pray "Lord have
                      mercy". The presumably Vandal phrase is garbled in the various
                      maniscripts as Sihora armen, Shroia armen, Kuroia armes,
                      Fhrota/Froti armes (Streitberg "Gotisches Elemantarbuch" §15.5b),
                      reconstructed in Gothic spelling as * frauja armais. But we can't
                      tell much from that. A page of the Gothic bible was found in
                      Egypt. Was this as relic of the Vandal kingdom? Of course, using
                      the Gothic bible doesn't prove that the Vandal's own speech was
                      identical.

                      Does anyone know of classical sources that mention language
                      difficulties or lack of them among the Germanic tribes? Didn't
                      Priscus say something about languages spoken in the empire of Attila?

                      Llama Nom
                    • Sigi Vandewinkel
                      I remember reading an article thet addressed this question ( how easy was it for 5th - 6th century speakers of germanic to understand one another ), but I
                      Message 10 of 24 , Jun 8, 2005
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                        I remember reading an article thet addressed this question ("how easy
                        was it for 5th - 6th century speakers of germanic to understand one
                        another"), but I can't remember where I found it or who wrote it. The
                        question was approached from two directions: comparison of the extant
                        versions of the Lord's prayer, and a comparison of mutual
                        intelligibility across German dialects in modern-day Switzerland. The
                        conclusion was similar to that given by Llama Nom: those willing
                        enough to understand foreign dialects/languages would have understood
                        a great deal, even in the 6th century.

                        Sigi
                      • Yair Davidiy
                        ... Avraham Polok, Khuzaria , (Hebrew) Tel Aviv, 5711 (1950?) published an important study on the Khazars that researchers still refer to. He quotes from
                        Message 11 of 24 , Jul 1, 2005
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                          At 11:49 AM 4/30/2005, you wrote:
                          >Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 11:49:48 +0200
                          >From: Tore Gannholm <tore@...>
                          >Subject: Re: [gothic-l] Gothic, Yiddish and High German

                          Avraham Polok, "Khuzaria", (Hebrew) Tel Aviv, 5711 (1950?) published an
                          important
                          study on the Khazars that researchers still refer to.
                          He quotes from different sources claiming that Yiddish derives from Gothish
                          and himself suggests that the Khazars were a kind of Gothic offshoot.


                          >Hi,
                          >If your theory is right there must have been an exodus of Jews from the
                          >Rhineland during the Crusades.
                          >Is there any evidence?
                          >On the other hand Khazar is documented a Jewish converted state. Also
                          >documented imported rabbis.
                          >
                          >Tore
                          >
                          >On Apr 30, 2005, at 2:14 AM, Debbie Williams wrote:
                          >
                          > > Hmmmmmmm I've never heard of that connection. If you find out let me
                          > > know.
                          > >
                          > > macmaster@... wrote:Hi all,
                          > > I am curious if anyone knows anything about the Yiddish language and
                          > > its
                          > > possible ties to Gothic.
                          > > While the conventional model of the origins of Yiddish has it being
                          > > brought to eastern and central Europe from the Rhineland roughly at
                          > > the
                          > > time of the Crusades and makes it a medieval Rhenish dialect, an
                          > > acquaintance of mine asserts that the Yiddish language has more in
                          > > common
                          > > (in grammar, morphology, vocabulary, etc) with the East Germanic
                          > > languages
                          > > of the early middle ages than with the German of the Rhine.
                          > > Not reading Hebrew and knowing less than "ein bissel Yiddishe", I
                          > > can't
                          > > judge his hypothesis. Maybe someone knows more and can speak on this?
                          > >
                          > > thanks,
                          > > Tom MacMaster
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a blank
                          > > email to <gothic-l-unsubscribe@egroups.com>.
                          > >
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                        • llama_nom
                          ... an ... Gothish ... Hi Yair, Have you seen the book? I d be curious to know what linguistic evidence Avraham Polok used to relate Yiddish and Gothic. Llama
                          Message 12 of 24 , Jul 2, 2005
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                            --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Yair Davidiy <britam@n...> wrote:
                            > At 11:49 AM 4/30/2005, you wrote:
                            > >Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 11:49:48 +0200
                            > >From: Tore Gannholm <tore@g...>
                            > >Subject: Re: [gothic-l] Gothic, Yiddish and High German
                            >
                            > Avraham Polok, "Khuzaria", (Hebrew) Tel Aviv, 5711 (1950?) published
                            an
                            > important
                            > study on the Khazars that researchers still refer to.
                            > He quotes from different sources claiming that Yiddish derives from
                            Gothish
                            > and himself suggests that the Khazars were a kind of Gothic offshoot.
                            >

                            Hi Yair,

                            Have you seen the book? I'd be curious to know what linguistic
                            evidence Avraham Polok used to relate Yiddish and Gothic.

                            Llama Nom
                          • yeah96704
                            The following quote from Priscus the Byzantine ambassador to the Hunnic Empire is very suggestive concerning the Gothic origin of yiddish: I was surprised
                            Message 13 of 24 , Mar 27, 2011
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                              The following quote from Priscus the Byzantine ambassador to the Hunnic Empire is very suggestive concerning the "Gothic" origin of yiddish:

                              "I was surprised at a Scythian speaking Greek. For the subjects of the Huns swept together from various lands, speak, besides their own barbarous tongues, either Hunnic or Gothic, or as many have commercial dealings with the western Romans, Latin, but none of them easily speak Greek."

                              With the addition of a few other facts we can derive the following from this passage:

                              1. "Scythian" is the Greek derived word for the term Askenaz or Ashkenazi in the Hebrew Bible. Not only the verses of the Bible point to this, but the derivation from Assyrian "Askuza" Scythian is highly likely. The later Rabbinic identification of Askenaz with Germany is certainly a folk etymology.

                              2. The Hunnic Empire was a near predecessor of the Khazar empire. It was the grandfather of the Khazar empire and ruled the same area of the Russian steppes as the Khazars, which that the Greeks called Scythia.

                              3. The Hunnic empire used Gothic as a lingua franca. Notice that the Scythians (Askenaz) used Gothic as a second language in addition to their many native languages. The native languages are likely the source of the (10%) Slavic vocabulary in Yiddish.

                              4. Yiddish has about 80% Germanic vocabulary, 10% Slavic, 10% medieval Hebrew Aramaic, and some Latin loanwords, but few if any Greek loanwords. Notice from Priscus that the Scythians (Askenaz) spoke native languages (10% Slavic), but used Gothic as a lingua franca (80% Germanic), knew some Latin (Latin loanwords), but knew little Greek (0% Greek loan words). Later with the conversion of Ashkenaz (Scythia) to Judaism during the early medieval period this Gothic would gain 10% Hebrew Aramaic. Still later the Germanic Gothic vocabulary of this protoyiddish would be progressively changed, reconciled, made consistent with the neighboring vocabulary of medieval High German. No doubt this last was facilitated by the higher culture of the medieval High German, but also by the Rabbis folk etymology that Askenaz = German.

                              5. Now the Goths were the rulers of Scythia prior to the Huns. The Greeks often referred to the Goths as Scythians. But notice that the citation from Priscus says that the Scythians were the subjects of the Huns. The later Khazars when they converted to Judaism and adopted Hebrew mythology stated that they were descended not from Shem, but from Togormah. Who is Togormah in the Hebrew Bible? Togormah is the brother of Ashkenaz. Hence, the Rabbis that converted the Khazar rulers of Scythia (Askenaz) taught them that they were the brothers of their subjects.

                              6. You will hear statements that the archeology and historical documents support the idea that only a few Khazars converted to Judaism. These statements are not true. In fact, the archeology supports a change in burial practice consistent Judaism. And the historical records of the few visitors to Khazaria sometimes but not all the time support the idea that all the people of Khazaria had converted to Judaism. It should be noted that the conversion to Judaism appears to have occurred in stages and was not all at once. Thus, accounting for the differences in historical accounts.

                              I expect that the recently discovered Khazar capital at Itil will reveal a text in protoyiddish. And when it does we will no doubt have a new document in ancient Gothic. Great discoveries have yet to be uncovered.


                              --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <600cell@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Yair Davidiy <britam@n...> wrote:
                              > > At 11:49 AM 4/30/2005, you wrote:
                              > > >Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 11:49:48 +0200
                              > > >From: Tore Gannholm <tore@g...>
                              > > >Subject: Re: [gothic-l] Gothic, Yiddish and High German
                              > >
                              > > Avraham Polok, "Khuzaria", (Hebrew) Tel Aviv, 5711 (1950?) published
                              > an
                              > > important
                              > > study on the Khazars that researchers still refer to.
                              > > He quotes from different sources claiming that Yiddish derives from
                              > Gothish
                              > > and himself suggests that the Khazars were a kind of Gothic offshoot.
                              > >
                              >
                              > Hi Yair,
                              >
                              > Have you seen the book? I'd be curious to know what linguistic
                              > evidence Avraham Polok used to relate Yiddish and Gothic.
                              >
                              > Llama Nom
                              >
                            • JLB
                              This is beautiful. May I quote you on my FaceBook page? Envoyé de mon iPhone ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              Message 14 of 24 , Mar 27, 2011
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                                This is beautiful. May I quote you on my FaceBook page?

                                Envoyé de mon iPhone

                                Le Mar 27, 2011 à 13:17, "yeah96704" <yeah96704@...> a écrit :

                                >
                                >
                                > The following quote from Priscus the Byzantine ambassador to the Hunnic Empire is very suggestive concerning the "Gothic" origin of yiddish:
                                >
                                > "I was surprised at a Scythian speaking Greek. For the subjects of the Huns swept together from various lands, speak, besides their own barbarous tongues, either Hunnic or Gothic, or as many have commercial dealings with the western Romans, Latin, but none of them easily speak Greek."
                                >
                                > With the addition of a few other facts we can derive the following from this passage:
                                >
                                > 1. "Scythian" is the Greek derived word for the term Askenaz or Ashkenazi in the Hebrew Bible. Not only the verses of the Bible point to this, but the derivation from Assyrian "Askuza" Scythian is highly likely. The later Rabbinic identification of Askenaz with Germany is certainly a folk etymology.
                                >
                                > 2. The Hunnic Empire was a near predecessor of the Khazar empire. It was the grandfather of the Khazar empire and ruled the same area of the Russian steppes as the Khazars, which that the Greeks called Scythia.
                                >
                                > 3. The Hunnic empire used Gothic as a lingua franca. Notice that the Scythians (Askenaz) used Gothic as a second language in addition to their many native languages. The native languages are likely the source of the (10%) Slavic vocabulary in Yiddish.
                                >
                                > 4. Yiddish has about 80% Germanic vocabulary, 10% Slavic, 10% medieval Hebrew Aramaic, and some Latin loanwords, but few if any Greek loanwords. Notice from Priscus that the Scythians (Askenaz) spoke native languages (10% Slavic), but used Gothic as a lingua franca (80% Germanic), knew some Latin (Latin loanwords), but knew little Greek (0% Greek loan words). Later with the conversion of Ashkenaz (Scythia) to Judaism during the early medieval period this Gothic would gain 10% Hebrew Aramaic. Still later the Germanic Gothic vocabulary of this protoyiddish would be progressively changed, reconciled, made consistent with the neighboring vocabulary of medieval High German. No doubt this last was facilitated by the higher culture of the medieval High German, but also by the Rabbis folk etymology that Askenaz = German.
                                >
                                > 5. Now the Goths were the rulers of Scythia prior to the Huns. The Greeks often referred to the Goths as Scythians. But notice that the citation from Priscus says that the Scythians were the subjects of the Huns. The later Khazars when they converted to Judaism and adopted Hebrew mythology stated that they were descended not from Shem, but from Togormah. Who is Togormah in the Hebrew Bible? Togormah is the brother of Ashkenaz. Hence, the Rabbis that converted the Khazar rulers of Scythia (Askenaz) taught them that they were the brothers of their subjects.
                                >
                                > 6. You will hear statements that the archeology and historical documents support the idea that only a few Khazars converted to Judaism. These statements are not true. In fact, the archeology supports a change in burial practice consistent Judaism. And the historical records of the few visitors to Khazaria sometimes but not all the time support the idea that all the people of Khazaria had converted to Judaism. It should be noted that the conversion to Judaism appears to have occurred in stages and was not all at once. Thus, accounting for the differences in historical accounts.
                                >
                                > I expect that the recently discovered Khazar capital at Itil will reveal a text in protoyiddish. And when it does we will no doubt have a new document in ancient Gothic. Great discoveries have yet to be uncovered.
                                >
                                > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <600cell@...> wrote:
                                > >
                                > > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Yair Davidiy <britam@n...> wrote:
                                > > > At 11:49 AM 4/30/2005, you wrote:
                                > > > >Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 11:49:48 +0200
                                > > > >From: Tore Gannholm <tore@g...>
                                > > > >Subject: Re: [gothic-l] Gothic, Yiddish and High German
                                > > >
                                > > > Avraham Polok, "Khuzaria", (Hebrew) Tel Aviv, 5711 (1950?) published
                                > > an
                                > > > important
                                > > > study on the Khazars that researchers still refer to.
                                > > > He quotes from different sources claiming that Yiddish derives from
                                > > Gothish
                                > > > and himself suggests that the Khazars were a kind of Gothic offshoot.
                                > > >
                                > >
                                > > Hi Yair,
                                > >
                                > > Have you seen the book? I'd be curious to know what linguistic
                                > > evidence Avraham Polok used to relate Yiddish and Gothic.
                                > >
                                > > Llama Nom
                                > >
                                >
                                >


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