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Gothic, Yiddish and High German

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  • macmaster@riseup.net
    Hi all, I am curious if anyone knows anything about the Yiddish language and its possible ties to Gothic. While the conventional model of the origins of
    Message 1 of 24 , Apr 27 1:44 PM
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      Hi all,
      I am curious if anyone knows anything about the Yiddish language and its
      possible ties to Gothic.
      While the conventional model of the origins of Yiddish has it being
      brought to eastern and central Europe from the Rhineland roughly at the
      time of the Crusades and makes it a medieval Rhenish dialect, an
      acquaintance of mine asserts that the Yiddish language has more in common
      (in grammar, morphology, vocabulary, etc) with the East Germanic languages
      of the early middle ages than with the German of the Rhine.
      Not reading Hebrew and knowing less than "ein bissel Yiddishe", I can't
      judge his hypothesis. Maybe someone knows more and can speak on this?

      thanks,
      Tom MacMaster
    • Tore Gannholm
      Hi Tom, I fully agree with you. Khazaria converted to Judaism in the 8 th century and imported rabbis to lead their new religion. Even if the ruling class were
      Message 2 of 24 , Apr 28 11:20 PM
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        Hi Tom,
        I fully agree with you.
        Khazaria converted to Judaism in the 8 th century and imported rabbis
        to lead their new religion. Even if the ruling class were Turks the
        area was previously Gothic and there must have been some Gothic
        speaking population left in this area.
        As far as I understand the language of the Jewish Khazarian state is
        the origin of Jiddish.

        Se about recent excavations
        http://www.stavgard.com/Gotland/picturestones_/khazar/default.htm


        Tore


        On Apr 27, 2005, at 10:44 PM, macmaster@... wrote:

        > Hi all,
        > I am curious if anyone knows anything about the Yiddish language and
        > its
        > possible ties to Gothic.
        > While the conventional model of the origins of Yiddish has it being
        > brought to eastern and central Europe from the Rhineland roughly at
        > the
        > time of the Crusades and makes it a medieval Rhenish dialect, an
        > acquaintance of mine asserts that the Yiddish language has more in
        > common
        > (in grammar, morphology, vocabulary, etc) with the East Germanic
        > languages
        > of the early middle ages than with the German of the Rhine.
        > Not reading Hebrew and knowing less than "ein bissel Yiddishe", I
        > can't
        > judge his hypothesis.� Maybe someone knows more and can speak on this?
        >
        > thanks,
        > Tom MacMaster
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > You are a member of the Gothic-L list.� To unsubscribe, send a blank
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        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Егоров Владимир
        *********************** Hi Tore! I have to grieve you. You contradict to yourself. It is commonly accepted that only a restricted circle of high ranked
        Message 3 of 24 , Apr 29 3:24 AM
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          ***********************

          Hi Tore!

          I have to grieve you. You contradict to yourself.
          It is commonly accepted that only a restricted circle
          of high ranked Khazarian rulers (the kagan, beks etc.)
          really adopted Judaism. The new religion did not spread
          among Khazarian population. This fact is known
          from narrative sources and well confirmed by archaeology.
          Hence, your "ruling class" that "were Turks" had to speak
          a Turkish language, not Gothic. Since that Turkish language
          was not written one, the Khazars used Hebrew
          (like Latin in Medieval Europe) for their documents
          and correspondence, not Yiddish. Further, where is
          the area, which "was previously Gothic"? Where did
          the local population speak Gothic in 8th century?
          Perhaps in Crimea, not on the banks of Don-river.
          By the way, your reference to Zolotye Gorki is absolutely
          irrelevant as the site represents the Saltovo-Mayatsk culture
          with no connection to the Goths and Chernyakhovsk culture.
          Nevertheless the problem remains. Origination of modern Jews,
          of at least Eastern Europe, from Khazaria is a very promising
          hypothesis, but there are some reefs on a direct way
          you tried to run recklessly.

          Best wishes,
          Vladimir


          -----Original Message-----
          From: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com [mailto:gothic-l@yahoogroups.com]On
          Behalf Of Tore Gannholm
          Sent: Friday, April 29, 2005 10:20 AM
          To: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [gothic-l] Gothic, Yiddish and High German


          Hi Tom,
          I fully agree with you.
          Khazaria converted to Judaism in the 8 th century and imported rabbis
          to lead their new religion. Even if the ruling class were Turks the
          area was previously Gothic and there must have been some Gothic
          speaking population left in this area.
          As far as I understand the language of the Jewish Khazarian state is
          the origin of Jiddish.

          Se about recent excavations
          http://www.stavgard.com/Gotland/picturestones_/khazar/default.htm


          Tore


          On Apr 27, 2005, at 10:44 PM, macmaster@... wrote:

          > Hi all,
          > I am curious if anyone knows anything about the Yiddish language and
          > its
          > possible ties to Gothic.
          > While the conventional model of the origins of Yiddish has it being
          > brought to eastern and central Europe from the Rhineland roughly at
          > the
          > time of the Crusades and makes it a medieval Rhenish dialect, an
          > acquaintance of mine asserts that the Yiddish language has more in
          > common
          > (in grammar, morphology, vocabulary, etc) with the East Germanic
          > languages
          > of the early middle ages than with the German of the Rhine.
          > Not reading Hebrew and knowing less than "ein bissel Yiddishe", I
          > can't
          > judge his hypothesis.  Maybe someone knows more and can speak on this?
          >
          > thanks,
          > Tom MacMaster
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > You are a member of the Gothic-L list.  To unsubscribe, send a blank
          > email to <gothic-l-unsubscribe@egroups.com>.
          >
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >  To visit your group on the web, go to:
          > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gothic-l/
          >  
          >  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          > gothic-l-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          >  
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          > Service.
          >


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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        • macmaster@riseup.net
          It seems to me that someone familiar with the various languages -- Gothic, medieval high German, and Yiddish -- should be able to tell fairly easily what the
          Message 4 of 24 , Apr 29 6:31 AM
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            It seems to me that someone familiar with the various languages -- Gothic,
            medieval high German, and Yiddish -- should be able to tell fairly easily
            what the relation is among them (in the same way that the closer relation
            between say Old English and Old Saxon than either to Gothic is readily
            visible) ...
            I don't have the necessary skills and, before even touching the subject of
            how such a linguistic relationship might have worked (drawing in the whole
            question of the Khazarian kaganate, etc), I'd like to know whether it is
            even possible. If Yiddish is clearly from the West, then all that
            discussion becomes irrelevant, etc.

            Thanks,
            Tom MacMaster

            åÇÏÒÏ× ÷ÌÁÄÉÍÉÒ said:
            > ***********************
            >
            > Hi Tore!
            >
            > I have to grieve you. You contradict to yourself.
            > It is commonly accepted that only a restricted circle
            > of high ranked Khazarian rulers (the kagan, beks etc.)
            > really adopted Judaism. The new religion did not spread
            > among Khazarian population. This fact is known
            > from narrative sources and well confirmed by archaeology.
            > Hence, your "ruling class" that "were Turks" had to speak
            > a Turkish language, not Gothic. Since that Turkish language
            > was not written one, the Khazars used Hebrew
            > (like Latin in Medieval Europe) for their documents
            > and correspondence, not Yiddish. Further, where is
            > the area, which "was previously Gothic"? Where did
            > the local population speak Gothic in 8th century?
            > Perhaps in Crimea, not on the banks of Don-river.
            > By the way, your reference to Zolotye Gorki is absolutely
            > irrelevant as the site represents the Saltovo-Mayatsk culture
            > with no connection to the Goths and Chernyakhovsk culture.
            > Nevertheless the problem remains. Origination of modern Jews,
            > of at least Eastern Europe, from Khazaria is a very promising
            > hypothesis, but there are some reefs on a direct way
            > you tried to run recklessly.
            >
            > Best wishes,
            > Vladimir
            >
            >
            > -----Original Message-----
            > From: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com [mailto:gothic-l@yahoogroups.com]On
            > Behalf Of Tore Gannholm
            > Sent: Friday, April 29, 2005 10:20 AM
            > To: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com
            > Subject: Re: [gothic-l] Gothic, Yiddish and High German
            >
            >
            > Hi Tom,
            > I fully agree with you.
            > Khazaria converted to Judaism in the 8 th century and imported rabbis
            > to lead their new religion. Even if the ruling class were Turks the
            > area was previously Gothic and there must have been some Gothic
            > speaking population left in this area.
            > As far as I understand the language of the Jewish Khazarian state is
            > the origin of Jiddish.
            >
            > Se about recent excavations
            > http://www.stavgard.com/Gotland/picturestones_/khazar/default.htm
            >
            >
            > Tore
            >
            >
            > On Apr 27, 2005, at 10:44 PM, macmaster@... wrote:
            >
            >> Hi all,
            >> I am curious if anyone knows anything about the Yiddish language and
            >> its
            >> possible ties to Gothic.
            >> While the conventional model of the origins of Yiddish has it being
            >> brought to eastern and central Europe from the Rhineland roughly at
            >> the
            >> time of the Crusades and makes it a medieval Rhenish dialect, an
            >> acquaintance of mine asserts that the Yiddish language has more in
            >> common
            >> (in grammar, morphology, vocabulary, etc) with the East Germanic
            >> languages
            >> of the early middle ages than with the German of the Rhine.
            >> Not reading Hebrew and knowing less than "ein bissel Yiddishe", I
            >> can't
            >> judge his hypothesis.š Maybe someone knows more and can speak on this?
            >>
            >> thanks,
            >> Tom MacMaster
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >> You are a member of the Gothic-L list.š To unsubscribe, send a blank
            >> email to <gothic-l-unsubscribe@egroups.com>.
            >>
            >>
            >> Yahoo! Groups Links
            >>  To visit your group on the web, go to:
            >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gothic-l/
            >> š
            >>  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            >> gothic-l-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            >> š
            >>  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
            >> Service.
            >>
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a blank email
            > to <gothic-l-unsubscribe@egroups.com>.
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a blank email
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            >
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            >
            >
          • Tore Gannholm
            Hi Vladimir, Thanks for your points. I get contradicting impressions when I read various authors. However the subject is very interesting and I think it needs
            Message 5 of 24 , Apr 29 9:19 AM
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              Hi Vladimir,
              Thanks for your points.
              I get contradicting impressions when I read various authors. However
              the subject is very interesting and I think it needs much more
              attention.
              Tore


              On Apr 29, 2005, at 12:24 PM, Егоров Владимир wrote:

              > ***********************
              >
              > Hi Tore!
              >
              > I have to grieve you. You contradict to yourself.
              > It is commonly accepted that only a restricted circle
              > of high ranked Khazarian rulers (the kagan, beks etc.)
              > really adopted Judaism. The new religion did not spread
              > among Khazarian population. This fact is known
              > from narrative sources and well confirmed by archaeology.
              > Hence, your "ruling class" that "were Turks" had to speak
              > a Turkish language, not Gothic. Since that Turkish language
              > was not written one, the Khazars used Hebrew
              > (like Latin in Medieval Europe) for their documents
              > and correspondence, not Yiddish. Further, where is
              > the area, which "was previously Gothic"? Where did
              > the local population speak Gothic in 8th century?
              > Perhaps in Crimea, not on the banks of Don-river.
              > By the way, your reference to Zolotye Gorki is absolutely
              > irrelevant as the site represents the Saltovo-Mayatsk culture
              > with no connection to the Goths and Chernyakhovsk culture.
              > Nevertheless the problem remains. Origination of modern Jews,
              > of at least Eastern Europe, from Khazaria is a very promising
              > hypothesis, but there are some reefs on a direct way
              > you tried to run recklessly.
              >
              > Best wishes,
              > Vladimir
              >
              >
              > -----Original Message-----
              > From: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com [mailto:gothic-l@yahoogroups.com]On
              > Behalf Of Tore Gannholm
              > Sent: Friday, April 29, 2005 10:20 AM
              > To: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com
              > Subject: Re: [gothic-l] Gothic, Yiddish and High German
              >
              >
              > Hi Tom,
              > I fully agree with you.
              > Khazaria converted to Judaism in the 8 th century and imported rabbis
              > to lead their new religion. Even if the ruling class were Turks the
              > area was previously Gothic and there must have been some Gothic
              > speaking population left in this area.
              > As far as I understand the language of the Jewish Khazarian state is
              > the origin of Jiddish.
              >
              > Se about recent excavations
              > http://www.stavgard.com/Gotland/picturestones_/khazar/default.htm
              >
              >
              > Tore
              >
              >
              > On Apr 27, 2005, at 10:44 PM, macmaster@... wrote:
              >
              >> Hi all,
              >> I am curious if anyone knows anything about the Yiddish language and
              >> its
              >> possible ties to Gothic.
              >> While the conventional model of the origins of Yiddish has it being
              >> brought to eastern and central Europe from the Rhineland roughly at
              >> the
              >> time of the Crusades and makes it a medieval Rhenish dialect, an
              >> acquaintance of mine asserts that the Yiddish language has more in
              >> common
              >> (in grammar, morphology, vocabulary, etc) with the East Germanic
              >> languages
              >> of the early middle ages than with the German of the Rhine.
              >> Not reading Hebrew and knowing less than "ein bissel Yiddishe", I
              >> can't
              >> judge his hypothesis. Maybe someone knows more and can speak on
              >> this?
              >>
              >> thanks,
              >> Tom MacMaster
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >> You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a blank
              >> email to <gothic-l-unsubscribe@egroups.com>.
              >>
              >>
              >> Yahoo! Groups Links
              >>  To visit your group on the web, go to:
              >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gothic-l/
              >>
              >>  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
              >> gothic-l-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              >>
              >>  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
              >> Service.
              >>
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a blank
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              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a blank
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              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • llama_nom
              Hi Tom, I don t know anything about genetics, but according to this site, the the question of the Khazar contribution to Jewish DNA is still an open question.
              Message 6 of 24 , Apr 29 9:53 AM
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                Hi Tom,

                I don't know anything about genetics, but according to this site,
                the the question of the Khazar contribution to Jewish DNA is still
                an open question. See the bottom of the page. There are plenty of
                other sites arguing the case one way or the other, but a lot of them
                seem to be ideologically motivated.

                http://www.khazaria.com/genetics/abstracts.html

                If your aquaintance can suggest any specific ways in which Yiddish
                is more like Gothic, I'd be very interested to hear of them. The
                idea is new to me. I'm not aware of any books or papers about
                Gothic which make this claim. On the face of it, Yiddish, from what
                little I know, seems to be exactly how it's usually described: a
                dialect of German, written in Hebrew letters, with a lot of Hebrew
                words too. The basic vocabulary looks very much like German, and a
                cursory look at some vocabulary lists just now hasn't turned up any
                points yet where Yiddish agrees with Gothic in constrast to German,
                as far as I can see. If there was a connection, it would have to be
                very ancient and obscured by most of the sound changes that we think
                of as characteristic of modern German, not just the High German
                consonant shift, but i-umlaut and rhoticism of /z/ > /r/ -- none of
                which exist in Biblical Gothic or Crimean Gothic. In which case,
                this hypothetical link may well have to predate the Khazar empire.

                Llama Nom




                --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, macmaster@r... wrote:
                > Hi all,
                > I am curious if anyone knows anything about the Yiddish language
                and its
                > possible ties to Gothic.
                > While the conventional model of the origins of Yiddish has it being
                > brought to eastern and central Europe from the Rhineland roughly
                at the
                > time of the Crusades and makes it a medieval Rhenish dialect, an
                > acquaintance of mine asserts that the Yiddish language has more in
                common
                > (in grammar, morphology, vocabulary, etc) with the East Germanic
                languages
                > of the early middle ages than with the German of the Rhine.
                > Not reading Hebrew and knowing less than "ein bissel Yiddishe", I
                can't
                > judge his hypothesis. Maybe someone knows more and can speak on
                this?
                >
                > thanks,
                > Tom MacMaster
              • Debbie Williams
                Hmmmmmmm I ve never heard of that connection. If you find out let me know. macmaster@riseup.net wrote:Hi all, I am curious if anyone knows anything about the
                Message 7 of 24 , Apr 29 5:14 PM
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                  Hmmmmmmm I've never heard of that connection. If you find out let me know.

                  macmaster@... wrote:Hi all,
                  I am curious if anyone knows anything about the Yiddish language and its
                  possible ties to Gothic.
                  While the conventional model of the origins of Yiddish has it being
                  brought to eastern and central Europe from the Rhineland roughly at the
                  time of the Crusades and makes it a medieval Rhenish dialect, an
                  acquaintance of mine asserts that the Yiddish language has more in common
                  (in grammar, morphology, vocabulary, etc) with the East Germanic languages
                  of the early middle ages than with the German of the Rhine.
                  Not reading Hebrew and knowing less than "ein bissel Yiddishe", I can't
                  judge his hypothesis. Maybe someone knows more and can speak on this?

                  thanks,
                  Tom MacMaster






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                • Tore Gannholm
                  Hi, If your theory is right there must have been an exodus of Jews from the Rhineland during the Crusades. Is there any evidence? On the other hand Khazar is
                  Message 8 of 24 , Apr 30 2:49 AM
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                    Hi,
                    If your theory is right there must have been an exodus of Jews from the
                    Rhineland during the Crusades.
                    Is there any evidence?
                    On the other hand Khazar is documented a Jewish converted state. Also
                    documented imported rabbis.

                    Tore

                    On Apr 30, 2005, at 2:14 AM, Debbie Williams wrote:

                    > Hmmmmmmm I've never heard of that connection. If you find out let me
                    > know.
                    >
                    > macmaster@... wrote:Hi all,
                    > I am curious if anyone knows anything about the Yiddish language and
                    > its
                    > possible ties to Gothic.
                    > While the conventional model of the origins of Yiddish has it being
                    > brought to eastern and central Europe from the Rhineland roughly at
                    > the
                    > time of the Crusades and makes it a medieval Rhenish dialect, an
                    > acquaintance of mine asserts that the Yiddish language has more in
                    > common
                    > (in grammar, morphology, vocabulary, etc) with the East Germanic
                    > languages
                    > of the early middle ages than with the German of the Rhine.
                    > Not reading Hebrew and knowing less than "ein bissel Yiddishe", I
                    > can't
                    > judge his hypothesis.� Maybe someone knows more and can speak on this?
                    >
                    > thanks,
                    > Tom MacMaster
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > You are a member of the Gothic-L list.� To unsubscribe, send a blank
                    > email to <gothic-l-unsubscribe@egroups.com>.
                    >
                    >
                    >
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                  • llama_nom
                    Devil s Advocate mode: Apparent similarity isn t always the whole story. Languages relationships can t always be represented by a neat branching family tree.
                    Message 9 of 24 , May 2, 2005
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                      Devil's Advocate mode: Apparent similarity isn't always the whole
                      story. Languages relationships can't always be represented by a
                      neat branching family tree. There may be parallel evolution, and a
                      cultural and geographical closeness can lead to similarities between
                      languages that were once more distant relations, while
                      a 'genetically' close relation can end up looking superficially very
                      different. In mainland Scandinavia, for example, Norwegian has
                      undergone many developments in common with Danish and Swedish,
                      obscuring its one-time closer kinship with Icelandic.

                      That said, Yiddish certainly seems VERY CLEARLY like a variety of
                      German to me. I can't see any way in which it's more like Gothic
                      than any other German dialect. So unless we have any specific
                      suggestions there's no reason to doubt the conventional view yet.

                      Llama Nom


                      --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, macmaster@r... wrote:
                      > It seems to me that someone familiar with the various languages --
                      Gothic,
                      > medieval high German, and Yiddish -- should be able to tell fairly
                      easily
                      > what the relation is among them (in the same way that the closer
                      relation
                      > between say Old English and Old Saxon than either to Gothic is
                      readily
                      > visible) ...
                      > I don't have the necessary skills and, before even touching the
                      subject of
                      > how such a linguistic relationship might have worked (drawing in
                      the whole
                      > question of the Khazarian kaganate, etc), I'd like to know whether
                      it is
                      > even possible. If Yiddish is clearly from the West, then all that
                      > discussion becomes irrelevant, etc.
                      >
                      > Thanks,
                      > Tom MacMaster
                    • Debbie Williams
                      Aren t most of these languages considered to be of the Germanic language to beging with? I understand that we get the Germanic languages from the Ancient Goth
                      Message 10 of 24 , May 2, 2005
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                        Aren't most of these languages considered to be of the Germanic language to beging with? I understand that we get the Germanic languages from the Ancient Goth language. I've even found something of the Goth language online.

                        llama_nom <600cell@...> wrote:
                        Devil's Advocate mode: Apparent similarity isn't always the whole
                        story. Languages relationships can't always be represented by a
                        neat branching family tree. There may be parallel evolution, and a
                        cultural and geographical closeness can lead to similarities between
                        languages that were once more distant relations, while
                        a 'genetically' close relation can end up looking superficially very
                        different. In mainland Scandinavia, for example, Norwegian has
                        undergone many developments in common with Danish and Swedish,
                        obscuring its one-time closer kinship with Icelandic.

                        That said, Yiddish certainly seems VERY CLEARLY like a variety of
                        German to me. I can't see any way in which it's more like Gothic
                        than any other German dialect. So unless we have any specific
                        suggestions there's no reason to doubt the conventional view yet.

                        Llama Nom


                        --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, macmaster@r... wrote:
                        > It seems to me that someone familiar with the various languages --
                        Gothic,
                        > medieval high German, and Yiddish -- should be able to tell fairly
                        easily
                        > what the relation is among them (in the same way that the closer
                        relation
                        > between say Old English and Old Saxon than either to Gothic is
                        readily
                        > visible) ...
                        > I don't have the necessary skills and, before even touching the
                        subject of
                        > how such a linguistic relationship might have worked (drawing in
                        the whole
                        > question of the Khazarian kaganate, etc), I'd like to know whether
                        it is
                        > even possible. If Yiddish is clearly from the West, then all that
                        > discussion becomes irrelevant, etc.
                        >
                        > Thanks,
                        > Tom MacMaster






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                      • Tore Gannholm
                        Hi! Have you read this. TALES ABOUT JEWISH KHAZARS IN THE BYZANTINE EMPIRE RESOLVE AN OLD DEBATE. During the past two centuries, one of the major controversies
                        Message 11 of 24 , May 2, 2005
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                          Hi!
                          Have you read this.

                          TALES ABOUT JEWISH KHAZARS IN THE BYZANTINE EMPIRE RESOLVE AN OLD
                          DEBATE.

                          During the past two centuries, one of the major controversies
                          surrounding the kingdom of the Khazars was about the ultimate
                          religion(s) and geographic destination(s) of its Jewish inhabitants.�
                          Moses Shulvass, writing in The History of the Jewish People in 1982,
                          indicated that the fate of the Khazarian Jews �basically remains an
                          enigma.� (Shulvass 2:118)� Now, an exciting new discovery has at long
                          last demonstrated the integration of specifically Jewish Khazars with
                          other rabbinical Jews in an established Jewish community in a land
                          outside of Khazaria itself.

                          http://www.stavgard.com/extracts/jewishkhazars/default.htm

                          Tore


                          On May 2, 2005, at 9:26 PM, Debbie Williams wrote:

                          > Aren't most of these languages considered to be of the Germanic
                          > language� to beging with? I understand that we get the Germanic
                          > languages from the Ancient Goth language. I've even found something of
                          > the Goth language online.
                          >
                          > llama_nom <600cell@...> wrote:
                          > Devil's Advocate mode: Apparent similarity isn't always the whole
                          > story.� Languages relationships can't always be represented by a
                          > neat branching family tree.� There may be parallel evolution, and a
                          > cultural and geographical closeness can lead to similarities between
                          > languages that were once more distant relations, while
                          > a 'genetically' close relation can end up looking superficially very
                          > different.� In mainland Scandinavia, for example, Norwegian has
                          > undergone many developments in common with Danish and Swedish,
                          > obscuring its one-time closer kinship with Icelandic.
                          >
                          > That said, Yiddish certainly seems VERY CLEARLY like a variety of
                          > German to me.� I can't see any way in which it's more like Gothic
                          > than any other German dialect.� So unless we have any specific
                          > suggestions there's no reason to doubt the conventional view yet.
                          >
                          > Llama Nom


                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Егоров Владимир
                          ********************* Hi Tore! I guess there are no evidences of any exodus of Jews from Rhineland, neither narrative nor archaeological. Density of Jewish
                          Message 12 of 24 , May 3, 2005
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                            *********************

                            Hi Tore!

                            I guess there are no evidences of any exodus of Jews from Rhineland,
                            neither narrative nor archaeological. Density of Jewish population
                            along Upper Rhine during the crusades was insufficient to leave any
                            distinct archaeological traces. However, the German language was in
                            the central Europe of that time a universal communication means among
                            poly-national merchants. The Khazar merchants were not excluded.
                            All subsequent may be regarded only as a hypothesis.
                            After the downfall of the Khazar Empire the masses of the Khazars,
                            having spoken various languages and basically more or less related
                            to commerce, might rush to the west along the well-known trade paths
                            and settle in the places occupied by their predecessors, the Huns,
                            Avars, Magyars, and the Khasars themselves (the so-called Kovars
                            run away together with the Magyars after an unfortunate insurrection).
                            A part of them remained in passing along the Great Nomad Path (e.g.
                            in the region around Odessa), but most of them, like the predecessors,
                            including the Magyars and Kovars, reached the path end in Panonia
                            (the territory of the modern Hungary), which turned out a starting point
                            for a future spreading, to the north (Poland) for example.
                            But a significant share of multi-national resident population
                            in that starting point should use the universal communication means
                            of the central Europe, i.e. the Upper Rhine German idem Yiddish.
                            Once more, all this is only a hypothesis.
                            And an additional remark on your reference to "Vita Sancti Zotici".
                            Like most of hagiographies, this "Vita" is a distinct apology of
                            Christianity, and the Khazars are mentioned mainly
                            as the representatives of a withstanding religion having passed
                            to the True Faith due to a Miracle. The source is useless factually
                            though nobody denies availability of Khazar communities in Byzantium
                            and other countries, which might serve as staging posts in the Khazar
                            spreading. In particular, Kiev was probably such a post.

                            Vladimir




                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com [mailto:gothic-l@yahoogroups.com]On
                            Behalf Of Tore Gannholm
                            Sent: Saturday, April 30, 2005 1:50 PM
                            To: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: Re: [gothic-l] Gothic, Yiddish and High German


                            Hi,
                            If your theory is right there must have been an exodus of Jews from the
                            Rhineland during the Crusades.
                            Is there any evidence?
                            On the other hand Khazar is documented a Jewish converted state. Also
                            documented imported rabbis.

                            Tore

                            On Apr 30, 2005, at 2:14 AM, Debbie Williams wrote:

                            > Hmmmmmmm I've never heard of that connection. If you find out let me
                            > know.
                            >
                            > macmaster@... wrote:Hi all,
                            > I am curious if anyone knows anything about the Yiddish language and
                            > its
                            > possible ties to Gothic.
                            > While the conventional model of the origins of Yiddish has it being
                            > brought to eastern and central Europe from the Rhineland roughly at
                            > the
                            > time of the Crusades and makes it a medieval Rhenish dialect, an
                            > acquaintance of mine asserts that the Yiddish language has more in
                            > common
                            > (in grammar, morphology, vocabulary, etc) with the East Germanic
                            > languages
                            > of the early middle ages than with the German of the Rhine.
                            > Not reading Hebrew and knowing less than "ein bissel Yiddishe", I
                            > can't
                            > judge his hypothesis.  Maybe someone knows more and can speak on this?
                            >
                            > thanks,
                            > Tom MacMaster
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
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                          • Francisc Czobor
                            Godana maurgin allaim ! I speak German and have seen Yiddish dictionaries and texts. Whitout taking into account convetional or unconventional theories, my
                            Message 13 of 24 , May 4, 2005
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                              Godana maurgin allaim !

                              I speak German and have seen Yiddish dictionaries and texts. Whitout
                              taking into account convetional or unconventional theories, my personal
                              impression is that Yidish is basicly a High-German-type dialect with
                              many Hebrew and Slavic words. The traits that differentiate it from
                              literary German are found also in other High German dialects. So, as
                              Llama Nom pointed out, if there's a connection between Yiddish and
                              Gothic, it isn't evident at all.
                              The connection of Yiddish with the Goths "of Khazaria" appears also
                              in "The Thirteenth Tribe: The Khazar Empire and its Heritage", the
                              controversial book of Arthur Koestler, who tries to demonstrate that
                              the European Jews are mostly descendants of the Khazars. Regarding the
                              origins of Yiddish, he quotes A.N. Poliak who believes that "the form
                              of early Yiddish emerged in the zones possessed by the Goths of the
                              Khazarian Crimea." Poliak considers that the Crimean Gothic vocabulary
                              collected by Busbecq is related to the Middle-High-German element found
                              in Yiddish, and this is due, in his oppinion, to the fact that the
                              Crimean Goths keeped their contacts with ohter Germanic tribes which
                              influenced their language.
                              Indeed, the Crimean Gothic list collected by Busbecq, beside words that
                              are clearly East Germanic, contains also words that look rather High
                              German than Gothic (East Germanic). This fact was interpreted in
                              different ways (influence of German-speaking communities settled in
                              Eastern Europe, like the Transylvanian "Saxons", or distorted recording
                              of East-Germanic words due to the influence of High German or Flemish,
                              both spoken by Busbecq, or distorsion due to the publishers of Busbecq,
                              etc.).

                              Francisc
                            • macmaster@riseup.net
                              Is there any possibility - from a linguistic perspective - that the Crimean Goths might not be the descendants of Greutungian Goths but might, instead, be
                              Message 14 of 24 , May 16, 2005
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                                Is there any possibility - from a linguistic perspective - that the
                                Crimean Goths might not be the descendants of Greutungian Goths but might,
                                instead, be later Germanic immigrants to the region who adopted the name
                                of the people who had preceded them in the same region?

                                Tom MacMaster


                                Francisc Czobor said:
                                > Godana maurgin allaim !
                                >
                                > I speak German and have seen Yiddish dictionaries and texts. Whitout
                                > taking into account convetional or unconventional theories, my personal
                                > impression is that Yidish is basicly a High-German-type dialect with
                                > many Hebrew and Slavic words. The traits that differentiate it from
                                > literary German are found also in other High German dialects. So, as
                                > Llama Nom pointed out, if there's a connection between Yiddish and
                                > Gothic, it isn't evident at all.
                                > The connection of Yiddish with the Goths "of Khazaria" appears
                                > also
                                > in "The Thirteenth Tribe: The Khazar Empire and its Heritage",
                                > the
                                > controversial book of Arthur Koestler, who tries to demonstrate that
                                > the European Jews are mostly descendants of the Khazars. Regarding the
                                > origins of Yiddish, he quotes A.N. Poliak who believes that "the
                                > form
                                > of early Yiddish emerged in the zones possessed by the Goths of the
                                > Khazarian Crimea." Poliak considers that the Crimean Gothic
                                > vocabulary
                                > collected by Busbecq is related to the Middle-High-German element found
                                > in Yiddish, and this is due, in his oppinion, to the fact that the
                                > Crimean Goths keeped their contacts with ohter Germanic tribes which
                                > influenced their language.
                                > Indeed, the Crimean Gothic list collected by Busbecq, beside words that
                                > are clearly East Germanic, contains also words that look rather High
                                > German than Gothic (East Germanic). This fact was interpreted in
                                > different ways (influence of German-speaking communities settled in
                                > Eastern Europe, like the Transylvanian "Saxons", or distorted
                                > recording
                                > of East-Germanic words due to the influence of High German or Flemish,
                                > both spoken by Busbecq, or distorsion due to the publishers of Busbecq,
                                > etc.).
                                >
                                > Francisc
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
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                                > email to .
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                              • llama_nom
                                Hi Tom, I ve heard this idea suggested, and I don t know enough about the history to rule out the possibility of later immigrants, but purely in linguistic
                                Message 15 of 24 , May 21, 2005
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                                  Hi Tom,

                                  I've heard this idea suggested, and I don't know enough about the
                                  history to rule out the possibility of later immigrants, but purely
                                  in linguistic terms the language we call "Crimean Gothic"--whatever
                                  its relationship to the Gothic of the 4th century bible translation--
                                  must have been separated from the North and West Germanic dialects
                                  from a very early time (eg. the early Migration Era). Evidence for
                                  this:

                                  ado "egg", shows the development jj > dd, otherwise known only from
                                  Biblical Gothic.

                                  mine "moon", criten "cry". In North and West Germanic this sound
                                  was lowered, E: > æ: > a:. Whereas in Gothic it was increasingly
                                  raised e: > i:, as can be seen from the Gothic Bible, and spelling
                                  of East Gmc. names by Roman writers.

                                  schuos "bride" (probably miswritten for 'schnos'). In North and
                                  West Germanic the old sound /z/ remained voiced and became
                                  rhoticised, ultimately merging with /r/, cf. OE snoru, ON
                                  snør "daughter-in-law". In Gothic /z/ remained, or was devoiced at
                                  the end of a word.

                                  Llama Nom



                                  --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, macmaster@r... wrote:
                                  > Is there any possibility - from a linguistic perspective - that the
                                  > Crimean Goths might not be the descendants of Greutungian Goths
                                  but might,
                                  > instead, be later Germanic immigrants to the region who adopted
                                  the name
                                  > of the people who had preceded them in the same region?
                                  >
                                  > Tom MacMaster
                                • Francisc Czobor
                                  Hi, Tom! There is evidence, both historical and linguistic, that the Crimean Goths are indeed descendants of Eastern (or Greutungian ) Goths. The historical
                                  Message 16 of 24 , May 23, 2005
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                                    Hi, Tom!

                                    There is evidence, both historical and linguistic, that the Crimean
                                    Goths are indeed descendants of Eastern (or "Greutungian") Goths.
                                    The historical evidence is better known by other members of this List.
                                    I will speak a little about the linguistic evidence.
                                    All that we know about the Crimean Gothic language is from the word
                                    list collected by Busbecq in the 16th century.

                                    In that list, there are words that are clearly East Germanic, and not
                                    German, for instance:
                                    salt "salt": Goth. salt, but Germ. Salz
                                    mine "moon": Goth. mena, but Germ. Mond
                                    brunna "well, fountain": Goth. brunna, but Germ. Brunnen
                                    schlipen "sleep": Goth. slepan, but Germ. schlafen
                                    ada "egg": Goth. *addja-, but Germ. Ei
                                    baar "child": Goth. barn, but Germ. Kind
                                    menus "flesh, meat": Goth. mimz, but Germ. Fleisch
                                    mycha "sword": Goth. mekeis, but Old Sax. maki
                                    ies "he": Goth. is, but. Germ. er
                                    tua "two": Goth. twa (neuter), but Germ. zwei
                                    tria "three": Goth. thrija (neuter), but Germ. drei
                                    fyder "four": Goth. fidwor, but Germ. vier

                                    On the other hand, there are words that look rather German than
                                    Gothic:
                                    reghen "rain": Germ. Regen, but Goth. rign
                                    bruder "brother": Germ. Bruder, but Goth. brothar
                                    schuuester "sister": Germ. Schwester, but Goth. swistar
                                    alt "old": Germ. alt, but Goth. altheis
                                    thurn "door": Germ. Tür, but Goth. daur
                                    tag "day": Germ. Tag, but Goth. dags
                                    kommen "come": Germ. kommen, but Goth. qiman [pronounced: kwiman]
                                    singhen "sing": Germ. singen, but Goth. siggwan [pronounced: singwan]
                                    lachen "laugh": Germ. lachen, but Goth. hlahjan
                                    geen "go": Germ. gehen, but Goth. gaggan
                                    ich "I": Germ. ich, but Goth. ik

                                    In conclusion, Crimean Gothic has a clearly East Germanic origin,
                                    being with high probability the descendant of an old Gothic dialect.

                                    For the words looking rather German than Gothic, there are three
                                    explanations:

                                    1. The Crimean Gothic of the Busbecq's list, being from the 16th
                                    century, can be considered a "modern" Germanic language, that
                                    underwent phonetic changes parallel to those observed in the other
                                    modern Germanic languages, compared with the 4th century's Wulfilan
                                    Gothic. Thus rign, brothar, siggwan could become reghen, bruder,
                                    singhen, without any German influence. Also the form "ich" for "I",
                                    similar to German, could be explained through internal changes in
                                    Crimean Gothic: the shift k>ch is observed also in a pure Gothic
                                    word: mekeis>mycha.
                                    But there are words that are indeed suspiciously German-looking, like
                                    alt, tag, kommen, lachen, geen. For these cases, the two other
                                    explanations are applicable:

                                    2. Busbecq, being a speaker of Dutch (Flemish) and German, was
                                    tempted to give a more German form to words that sounded familiar to
                                    him: it is possible that where his Crimean informers said something
                                    like [dag] or [kwemen], he wrote down "tag", "kommen".

                                    3. It is also possible that the 16th century's Crimean Goths were
                                    mixed with later German immigrants, and the language recorded by
                                    Busbecq was a sort of "mixed language", Gothic and German. This would
                                    explain also why German merchants shipwrecked in Crimea in the 14th-
                                    15th centuries could make themselves understood in German with local
                                    people.

                                    Francisc


                                    --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, macmaster@r... wrote:
                                    > Is there any possibility - from a linguistic perspective - that the
                                    > Crimean Goths might not be the descendants of Greutungian Goths but
                                    might,
                                    > instead, be later Germanic immigrants to the region who adopted the
                                    name
                                    > of the people who had preceded them in the same region?
                                    >
                                    > Tom MacMaster
                                    >
                                  • llama_nom
                                    Hello all, Here is my attempt to summarise a paper by Ottar Grønvik on Crimean Gothic. Hope I haven t garbled anything or inadvertantly misrepresented any of
                                    Message 17 of 24 , May 23, 2005
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                                      Hello all,

                                      Here is my attempt to summarise a paper by Ottar Grønvik on Crimean
                                      Gothic. Hope I haven't garbled anything or inadvertantly
                                      misrepresented any of Grønvik's ideas. I've only commented on a
                                      couple of points, as I found I just don't know enough yet about the
                                      very early development of Germanic to make up my own mind on the
                                      overall argument that Crimean Gothic is a West Germanic dialect that
                                      separated from the WG continuum at some time before c. 200 AD and
                                      after that underwent sound changes in common with the language that
                                      evolved into Biblical Gothic. For phonetic spellings I've used the
                                      SAMPA notation:

                                      http://www.phon.ucl.ac.uk/home/sampa/home.htm

                                      Otherwise I've followed the spellings in the article.

                                      Llama Nom



                                      Ottar Grønvik: "Die dialektgeographische Stelling des Krimgotischen
                                      und die krimgotische cantilena."

                                      Features of Crimean Gothic:

                                      1) No i/j mutation (thus agreeing with Gothic against NWG).
                                      2) z > s finally, as in Gothic (*schnos v. OE snoru, ON snør)-- good
                                      evidence for treatment of Gmc. /z/, as Busbecq apparently didn't
                                      recognise the word as Germanic.
                                      3) u & i preserved before nasal + cons., or before high vowel in
                                      following syllable (gira < *giri), otherwise lowered in same
                                      circumstances as in NWG (boga, *schnos v. *thuru; schwester v.
                                      wintch).
                                      4) Raising of e > i before u/w irregular (seuene, fyder), but so too
                                      in other dialects.
                                      5) ð > d, as in WG, and subsequently devoiced (plut). Initially and
                                      in voiced medial positions þ > d. But þ > þ, spelt <tz>, finally
                                      and medially in voiceless environment. Due to frequent occurrence
                                      as enclitic in such positions, the pronoun tzo `thou' retained the
                                      sound.
                                      6) Unstressed vowels > @ (schwa), represented by random vowel
                                      letters, except for Old Crimean Gothic o:n > u:, spelt <ou>
                                      (kadariou = /kad@rju:/ < *ka(n)dario:n < Lat. centurio:n-).
                                      7) /n/ lost after long vowel (kadariou), but kept after short (verb
                                      inf. ending -en).
                                      8) i: > i: u: > u: e: > i: o: > u: eu > i: iu >
                                      i:, y:? ai > e: au > o:
                                      9) initial /h/ lost.

                                      (Thinks: Point (3) assumes that a-umlaut etc. was a NWG innovation.
                                      Question, can we tell whether Gothic was unaffected by this change,
                                      or just lost the distinction between these sounds at a later date?
                                      Grønvik doesn't bring into the discussion the letter names from the
                                      Vienna-Salzburg codex: chozma, geuua, enguz.)

                                      Regarding /i:/ from Gmc. e:1, Grønvik says 4.4.2.3.1. that /e:/
                                      > /a:/ very early in NG but not among the West Germanic people of
                                      the Elbe region till the end of the 2nd century AD. Later still
                                      among the Franks in the vicinity of the Rhine. Regarding ð > d,
                                      Grønvik says 4.4.2.3.2 that this a common WG development, ? 2nd c.
                                      or earlier. Regarding rhoticism of Gmc /z/, Grønvik says 4.4.2.3.4
                                      that WG probably retained /z/ before 200. The final devoicing he
                                      sees as a Migration Era sound change shared by Crimean and Biblical
                                      Gothic. Similarly with the monophthongisation of /ai/ and /au/.

                                      (The full reasoning behind these assumptions is not explained, but I
                                      gather there are some Latin inscriptions to West Germanic goddesses
                                      (`Matrons') which preserve a Germanic dative plural ending: Aflims,
                                      Vatvims, Saitchamimi(s).)

                                      10) warthata = /wartt@te/ < warhta + preterite ending repeated by
                                      analogy.
                                      11) /al:/ lapis = ON hallr, OE heall, rather than Got. hallus.
                                      12) thurn = *thuru = /dur@/, old dual form cognate with OE, OS duru,
                                      rather than Got. daur, daurons.
                                      _______________________________________________________


                                      Sequence of changes acc. Grønvik:

                                      1. NWG
                                      u > u / o
                                      e > e / i

                                      2. WG to 200
                                      æ: > e:
                                      d, ð > d
                                      z > z
                                      lþ > lþ
                                      þ > þ, ð
                                      e – u/w > i
                                      xj > xxj
                                      ngw > ng

                                      3. Pre-Gothic
                                      jj > ddj
                                      Reduction of unstressed vowels
                                      Devoicing of final fricatives
                                      Monophthongisation of ai, au > E:, O:
                                      rB > rb (dorbiza)
                                      No i-umlaut

                                      4. Old Crimean Gothic + Gothic 350 – 550
                                      iu > y:
                                      eu > e:
                                      e:, o: > i:, u:
                                      E:, O: > e:, o:
                                      Further reduction of unstressed vowels
                                      (þ >) [ð], [d]
                                      xt, xs > tt, ss
                                      sk > sch
                                      sw, sl, sn > schw, schl, schn
                                      b, d, g devoiced initially
                                      h-, -h- > Ø


                                      The song! He reconstructs/interprets thus, explaining his reasoning
                                      in full detail. I've written it out in SAMPA phonetic notation
                                      after.

                                      wara wara ing[a]dolou
                                      scu te gira galtzou
                                      heemisclep dorbize ea

                                      war@ war@ in-gad@lu: (in-gad@lu)
                                      Su: t@ gir@ galtTu: (galTu:)
                                      he:m@SlE:pp dorb@z@ E@

                                      Guard (watch over / look after / protect) the very beautiful one.
                                      You gave (paid) desirable shoes.
                                      Let the hungry horse out graze at home.

                                      The 1st & 3rd lines are taken to be commands/requests.

                                      scu = *schu `set of [horse] shoes' < gaskohi `pair of shoes' (as in
                                      Biblical Gothic, but not specifically EG).

                                      *schlep `let loose to graze' he suggests is a loan from ON sleppa
                                      (while also considering a possible WG etymology). Following Norse
                                      grammar he takes <dorbize> as a dative f. sg. adjective, pointing
                                      out that the pronominal-style ending agrees with WG rather than
                                      Biblical Gothic. He also considers (as less likely) the possibility
                                      that this is a comparative.

                                      <te> is interpreted as WG, although acc. G's phonology it could
                                      equally apply be from a Gothic-like /du/.

                                      The situation of the song is compared to the opening lines of
                                      Norwegian heroic ballads. As a less likely possibility he suggests
                                      a children's rhyme.
                                    • macmaster@riseup.net
                                      I would assume something like the last: between the end of the first Greutungian state in 370 and Busbecq s day, there certainly were many other Germanic
                                      Message 18 of 24 , May 23, 2005
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                                        I would assume something like the last: between the end of the first
                                        Greutungian state in 370 and Busbecq's day, there certainly were many
                                        other Germanic speaking peoples in the region (Gepids and Heruli, to
                                        Varangians and Transylvanian Saxons) so surely there were some influences.

                                        Speaking of intelligibility, does anyone have an idea of how easy it would
                                        have been for a monoglot Visigoth in c.500 to understand a monoglot Frank,
                                        Saxon, or Vandal?
                                        Also, would the Wulfilan Bible have been readily understood by
                                        contemporary non-Goths (again, Vandals, Burgundians, Lombards, Franks,
                                        Saxons, etc)?

                                        Or were the differences between the Germanic dialects already a barrier to
                                        ready communication?

                                        Tom MacMaster
                                        Francisc Czobor said:
                                        > Hi, Tom!
                                        >
                                        > There is evidence, both historical and linguistic, that the Crimean
                                        > Goths are indeed descendants of Eastern (or "Greutungian")
                                        > Goths.
                                        > The historical evidence is better known by other members of this List.
                                        > I will speak a little about the linguistic evidence.
                                        > All that we know about the Crimean Gothic language is from the word
                                        > list collected by Busbecq in the 16th century.
                                        >
                                        > In that list, there are words that are clearly East Germanic, and not
                                        > German, for instance:
                                        > salt "salt": Goth. salt, but Germ. Salz
                                        > mine "moon": Goth. mena, but Germ. Mond
                                        > brunna "well, fountain": Goth. brunna, but Germ. Brunnen
                                        > schlipen "sleep": Goth. slepan, but Germ. schlafen
                                        > ada "egg": Goth. *addja-, but Germ. Ei
                                        > baar "child": Goth. barn, but Germ. Kind
                                        > menus "flesh, meat": Goth. mimz, but Germ. Fleisch
                                        > mycha "sword": Goth. mekeis, but Old Sax. maki
                                        > ies "he": Goth. is, but. Germ. er
                                        > tua "two": Goth. twa (neuter), but Germ. zwei
                                        > tria "three": Goth. thrija (neuter), but Germ. drei
                                        > fyder "four": Goth. fidwor, but Germ. vier
                                        >
                                        > On the other hand, there are words that look rather German than
                                        > Gothic:
                                        > reghen "rain": Germ. Regen, but Goth. rign
                                        > bruder "brother": Germ. Bruder, but Goth. brothar
                                        > schuuester "sister": Germ. Schwester, but Goth. swistar
                                        > alt "old": Germ. alt, but Goth. altheis
                                        > thurn "door": Germ. Tür, but Goth. daur
                                        > tag "day": Germ. Tag, but Goth. dags
                                        > kommen "come": Germ. kommen, but Goth. qiman [pronounced:
                                        > kwiman]
                                        > singhen "sing": Germ. singen, but Goth. siggwan [pronounced:
                                        > singwan]
                                        > lachen "laugh": Germ. lachen, but Goth. hlahjan
                                        > geen "go": Germ. gehen, but Goth. gaggan
                                        > ich "I": Germ. ich, but Goth. ik
                                        >
                                        > In conclusion, Crimean Gothic has a clearly East Germanic origin,
                                        > being with high probability the descendant of an old Gothic dialect.
                                        >
                                        > For the words looking rather German than Gothic, there are three
                                        > explanations:
                                        >
                                        > 1. The Crimean Gothic of the Busbecq's list, being from the 16th
                                        > century, can be considered a "modern" Germanic language, that
                                        > underwent phonetic changes parallel to those observed in the other
                                        > modern Germanic languages, compared with the 4th century's Wulfilan
                                        > Gothic. Thus rign, brothar, siggwan could become reghen, bruder,
                                        > singhen, without any German influence. Also the form "ich" for
                                        > "I",
                                        > similar to German, could be explained through internal changes in
                                        > Crimean Gothic: the shift k>ch is observed also in a pure Gothic
                                        > word: mekeis>mycha.
                                        > But there are words that are indeed suspiciously German-looking, like
                                        > alt, tag, kommen, lachen, geen. For these cases, the two other
                                        > explanations are applicable:
                                        >
                                        > 2. Busbecq, being a speaker of Dutch (Flemish) and German, was
                                        > tempted to give a more German form to words that sounded familiar to
                                        > him: it is possible that where his Crimean informers said something
                                        > like [dag] or [kwemen], he wrote down "tag",
                                        > "kommen".
                                        >
                                        > 3. It is also possible that the 16th century's Crimean Goths were
                                        > mixed with later German immigrants, and the language recorded by
                                        > Busbecq was a sort of "mixed language", Gothic and German. This
                                        > would
                                        > explain also why German merchants shipwrecked in Crimea in the 14th-
                                        > 15th centuries could make themselves understood in German with local
                                        > people.
                                        >
                                        > Francisc
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, macmaster@r... wrote:
                                        > > Is there any possibility - from a linguistic perspective - that the
                                        > > Crimean Goths might not be the descendants of Greutungian Goths but
                                        > might,
                                        > > instead, be later Germanic immigrants to the region who adopted the
                                        > name
                                        > > of the people who had preceded them in the same region?
                                        > >
                                        > > Tom MacMaster
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a blank
                                        > email to .
                                        >
                                        >
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                                        > To visit your group on the web, go to:
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                                      • llama_nom
                                        ... it would ... monoglot Frank, ... Franks, ... barrier to ... This is an interesting question, but hard to answer because of the scantness of evidence. One
                                        Message 19 of 24 , May 29, 2005
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                                          --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, macmaster@r... wrote:

                                          > Speaking of intelligibility, does anyone have an idea of how easy
                                          it would
                                          > have been for a monoglot Visigoth in c.500 to understand a
                                          monoglot Frank,
                                          > Saxon, or Vandal?
                                          > Also, would the Wulfilan Bible have been readily understood by
                                          > contemporary non-Goths (again, Vandals, Burgundians, Lombards,
                                          Franks,
                                          > Saxons, etc)?
                                          >
                                          > Or were the differences between the Germanic dialects already a
                                          barrier to
                                          > ready communication?

                                          This is an interesting question, but hard to answer because of the
                                          scantness of evidence. One test might be to compare the Old High
                                          German translation of Tatien's Gospel Harmony (East Franconian,
                                          early 9th c.) with the various Gothic remains 4th-6th c. Another
                                          point of comparison is the early continental Germanic runic
                                          inscriptions, contemporary with the Gothic manuscripts.

                                          http://users.belgacom.net/chardic/html/tatien.html
                                          http://www.ub.rug.nl/eldoc/dis/arts/j.h.looijenga/
                                          (see ch. 7)

                                          In the case of Franks and Saxons, my feeling is that there would
                                          have been some barrier c. 500, but a rather flexible one. I
                                          wouldn't like to quantify that because i just don't know enough, but
                                          the situation may have been similar to that between Old English and
                                          Old Norse in Viking times, as imagined by Þórhallur Eyþórsson.

                                          http://malfridur.ismennt.is/vor2002/vol-18-1-21-26-thorhallur-eyj.htm

                                          He describes a situation where two people speaking carefully to each
                                          other in their respective dialects, trying to make things clear,
                                          could have understood each other fairly well. I suspect that even a
                                          little familiarity with the strange accent would have gone a long
                                          way to clarifying things, as the grammar was so similar and much of
                                          the vocabulary. What to a stay-at-home Goth might sound at first
                                          quite incomprehensible could quickly morph into merely very broad
                                          dialect in the ears of the traveller.

                                          Even where the OHG and Gothic versions of the gospels differ in
                                          vocabulary they would sometimes still have been comprehensible, e.g.
                                          where OHG has 'mittilgart' "world" for Got. 'manaseþs', Goths would
                                          have recognised their own word 'midjungards' with a similar
                                          synonymous(?) meaning. On the other hand it's possible that our
                                          hypothetical Goth overhearing a conversation between two Franks
                                          could miss a great deal. Bits would be perfectly clear, but if
                                          enough unfamilar words chanced to appear, or even just one or two in
                                          crucial places, a lot of meaning could get lost.

                                          Actually even a stay-at-home resident of the Dark Ages may have
                                          gained experience of the Germanic world at large through the mass
                                          medium of travelling poets, and travelling poems. The Old English
                                          poem Widsith is narrated by a fictional 'scop' (professional poet)
                                          who tells of his journey to see the Gothic king Eormanric, and of
                                          his meetings with just about every other famous ruler in legendary
                                          history along the way. We also know that many stories passed from
                                          one end of Germania to the other in those days. In this way Gothic
                                          legends may have survived the extinction of the Goths. There is an
                                          OE poem--Genesis A--known to have been composed originally in Old
                                          Saxon (the language of Northern Germany), and some early Norse
                                          poetry recorded in the Middle Ages--Hlöðskviða in Hervarar saga--
                                          shows evidence of continental Germanic style and language. Poets
                                          and connoisseurs of poetry, the nobility and people associated with
                                          them, ambassadors, merchants, missionaries, soldiers, etc. would all
                                          have had more oportunity to come into contect with the major
                                          Germanic dialects and gain familiarity with them.

                                          The Burgundians and Vandals are though to have spoken East Germanic
                                          dialects much like the the Goths. In fact a Latin epigram from
                                          North Africa mocks Vandal lack of (Latin) culture, describing their
                                          language as Gothic.

                                          http://www.univie.ac.at/indogermanistik/quellentexte.cgi?5
                                          http://online.mq.edu.au/pub/AHST233/home.htm
                                          http://tolklang.quettar.org/elfling-mirror/017nn/01791

                                          But this isn't very much evidence to go on. The Arian Christians of
                                          North Africa are said in another Latin source to pray "Lord have
                                          mercy". The presumably Vandal phrase is garbled in the various
                                          maniscripts as Sihora armen, Shroia armen, Kuroia armes,
                                          Fhrota/Froti armes (Streitberg "Gotisches Elemantarbuch" §15.5b),
                                          reconstructed in Gothic spelling as * frauja armais. But we can't
                                          tell much from that. A page of the Gothic bible was found in
                                          Egypt. Was this as relic of the Vandal kingdom? Of course, using
                                          the Gothic bible doesn't prove that the Vandal's own speech was
                                          identical.

                                          Does anyone know of classical sources that mention language
                                          difficulties or lack of them among the Germanic tribes? Didn't
                                          Priscus say something about languages spoken in the empire of Attila?

                                          Llama Nom
                                        • Sigi Vandewinkel
                                          I remember reading an article thet addressed this question ( how easy was it for 5th - 6th century speakers of germanic to understand one another ), but I
                                          Message 20 of 24 , Jun 8, 2005
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                                            I remember reading an article thet addressed this question ("how easy
                                            was it for 5th - 6th century speakers of germanic to understand one
                                            another"), but I can't remember where I found it or who wrote it. The
                                            question was approached from two directions: comparison of the extant
                                            versions of the Lord's prayer, and a comparison of mutual
                                            intelligibility across German dialects in modern-day Switzerland. The
                                            conclusion was similar to that given by Llama Nom: those willing
                                            enough to understand foreign dialects/languages would have understood
                                            a great deal, even in the 6th century.

                                            Sigi
                                          • Yair Davidiy
                                            ... Avraham Polok, Khuzaria , (Hebrew) Tel Aviv, 5711 (1950?) published an important study on the Khazars that researchers still refer to. He quotes from
                                            Message 21 of 24 , Jul 1, 2005
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                                              At 11:49 AM 4/30/2005, you wrote:
                                              >Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 11:49:48 +0200
                                              >From: Tore Gannholm <tore@...>
                                              >Subject: Re: [gothic-l] Gothic, Yiddish and High German

                                              Avraham Polok, "Khuzaria", (Hebrew) Tel Aviv, 5711 (1950?) published an
                                              important
                                              study on the Khazars that researchers still refer to.
                                              He quotes from different sources claiming that Yiddish derives from Gothish
                                              and himself suggests that the Khazars were a kind of Gothic offshoot.


                                              >Hi,
                                              >If your theory is right there must have been an exodus of Jews from the
                                              >Rhineland during the Crusades.
                                              >Is there any evidence?
                                              >On the other hand Khazar is documented a Jewish converted state. Also
                                              >documented imported rabbis.
                                              >
                                              >Tore
                                              >
                                              >On Apr 30, 2005, at 2:14 AM, Debbie Williams wrote:
                                              >
                                              > > Hmmmmmmm I've never heard of that connection. If you find out let me
                                              > > know.
                                              > >
                                              > > macmaster@... wrote:Hi all,
                                              > > I am curious if anyone knows anything about the Yiddish language and
                                              > > its
                                              > > possible ties to Gothic.
                                              > > While the conventional model of the origins of Yiddish has it being
                                              > > brought to eastern and central Europe from the Rhineland roughly at
                                              > > the
                                              > > time of the Crusades and makes it a medieval Rhenish dialect, an
                                              > > acquaintance of mine asserts that the Yiddish language has more in
                                              > > common
                                              > > (in grammar, morphology, vocabulary, etc) with the East Germanic
                                              > > languages
                                              > > of the early middle ages than with the German of the Rhine.
                                              > > Not reading Hebrew and knowing less than "ein bissel Yiddishe", I
                                              > > can't
                                              > > judge his hypothesis. Maybe someone knows more and can speak on this?
                                              > >
                                              > > thanks,
                                              > > Tom MacMaster
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > > You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a blank
                                              > > email to <gothic-l-unsubscribe@egroups.com>.
                                              > >
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                                            • llama_nom
                                              ... an ... Gothish ... Hi Yair, Have you seen the book? I d be curious to know what linguistic evidence Avraham Polok used to relate Yiddish and Gothic. Llama
                                              Message 22 of 24 , Jul 2, 2005
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                                                --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Yair Davidiy <britam@n...> wrote:
                                                > At 11:49 AM 4/30/2005, you wrote:
                                                > >Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 11:49:48 +0200
                                                > >From: Tore Gannholm <tore@g...>
                                                > >Subject: Re: [gothic-l] Gothic, Yiddish and High German
                                                >
                                                > Avraham Polok, "Khuzaria", (Hebrew) Tel Aviv, 5711 (1950?) published
                                                an
                                                > important
                                                > study on the Khazars that researchers still refer to.
                                                > He quotes from different sources claiming that Yiddish derives from
                                                Gothish
                                                > and himself suggests that the Khazars were a kind of Gothic offshoot.
                                                >

                                                Hi Yair,

                                                Have you seen the book? I'd be curious to know what linguistic
                                                evidence Avraham Polok used to relate Yiddish and Gothic.

                                                Llama Nom
                                              • yeah96704
                                                The following quote from Priscus the Byzantine ambassador to the Hunnic Empire is very suggestive concerning the Gothic origin of yiddish: I was surprised
                                                Message 23 of 24 , Mar 27, 2011
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                                                  The following quote from Priscus the Byzantine ambassador to the Hunnic Empire is very suggestive concerning the "Gothic" origin of yiddish:

                                                  "I was surprised at a Scythian speaking Greek. For the subjects of the Huns swept together from various lands, speak, besides their own barbarous tongues, either Hunnic or Gothic, or as many have commercial dealings with the western Romans, Latin, but none of them easily speak Greek."

                                                  With the addition of a few other facts we can derive the following from this passage:

                                                  1. "Scythian" is the Greek derived word for the term Askenaz or Ashkenazi in the Hebrew Bible. Not only the verses of the Bible point to this, but the derivation from Assyrian "Askuza" Scythian is highly likely. The later Rabbinic identification of Askenaz with Germany is certainly a folk etymology.

                                                  2. The Hunnic Empire was a near predecessor of the Khazar empire. It was the grandfather of the Khazar empire and ruled the same area of the Russian steppes as the Khazars, which that the Greeks called Scythia.

                                                  3. The Hunnic empire used Gothic as a lingua franca. Notice that the Scythians (Askenaz) used Gothic as a second language in addition to their many native languages. The native languages are likely the source of the (10%) Slavic vocabulary in Yiddish.

                                                  4. Yiddish has about 80% Germanic vocabulary, 10% Slavic, 10% medieval Hebrew Aramaic, and some Latin loanwords, but few if any Greek loanwords. Notice from Priscus that the Scythians (Askenaz) spoke native languages (10% Slavic), but used Gothic as a lingua franca (80% Germanic), knew some Latin (Latin loanwords), but knew little Greek (0% Greek loan words). Later with the conversion of Ashkenaz (Scythia) to Judaism during the early medieval period this Gothic would gain 10% Hebrew Aramaic. Still later the Germanic Gothic vocabulary of this protoyiddish would be progressively changed, reconciled, made consistent with the neighboring vocabulary of medieval High German. No doubt this last was facilitated by the higher culture of the medieval High German, but also by the Rabbis folk etymology that Askenaz = German.

                                                  5. Now the Goths were the rulers of Scythia prior to the Huns. The Greeks often referred to the Goths as Scythians. But notice that the citation from Priscus says that the Scythians were the subjects of the Huns. The later Khazars when they converted to Judaism and adopted Hebrew mythology stated that they were descended not from Shem, but from Togormah. Who is Togormah in the Hebrew Bible? Togormah is the brother of Ashkenaz. Hence, the Rabbis that converted the Khazar rulers of Scythia (Askenaz) taught them that they were the brothers of their subjects.

                                                  6. You will hear statements that the archeology and historical documents support the idea that only a few Khazars converted to Judaism. These statements are not true. In fact, the archeology supports a change in burial practice consistent Judaism. And the historical records of the few visitors to Khazaria sometimes but not all the time support the idea that all the people of Khazaria had converted to Judaism. It should be noted that the conversion to Judaism appears to have occurred in stages and was not all at once. Thus, accounting for the differences in historical accounts.

                                                  I expect that the recently discovered Khazar capital at Itil will reveal a text in protoyiddish. And when it does we will no doubt have a new document in ancient Gothic. Great discoveries have yet to be uncovered.


                                                  --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <600cell@...> wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Yair Davidiy <britam@n...> wrote:
                                                  > > At 11:49 AM 4/30/2005, you wrote:
                                                  > > >Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 11:49:48 +0200
                                                  > > >From: Tore Gannholm <tore@g...>
                                                  > > >Subject: Re: [gothic-l] Gothic, Yiddish and High German
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Avraham Polok, "Khuzaria", (Hebrew) Tel Aviv, 5711 (1950?) published
                                                  > an
                                                  > > important
                                                  > > study on the Khazars that researchers still refer to.
                                                  > > He quotes from different sources claiming that Yiddish derives from
                                                  > Gothish
                                                  > > and himself suggests that the Khazars were a kind of Gothic offshoot.
                                                  > >
                                                  >
                                                  > Hi Yair,
                                                  >
                                                  > Have you seen the book? I'd be curious to know what linguistic
                                                  > evidence Avraham Polok used to relate Yiddish and Gothic.
                                                  >
                                                  > Llama Nom
                                                  >
                                                • JLB
                                                  This is beautiful. May I quote you on my FaceBook page? Envoyé de mon iPhone ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                  Message 24 of 24 , Mar 27, 2011
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                                                    This is beautiful. May I quote you on my FaceBook page?

                                                    Envoyé de mon iPhone

                                                    Le Mar 27, 2011 à 13:17, "yeah96704" <yeah96704@...> a écrit :

                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > The following quote from Priscus the Byzantine ambassador to the Hunnic Empire is very suggestive concerning the "Gothic" origin of yiddish:
                                                    >
                                                    > "I was surprised at a Scythian speaking Greek. For the subjects of the Huns swept together from various lands, speak, besides their own barbarous tongues, either Hunnic or Gothic, or as many have commercial dealings with the western Romans, Latin, but none of them easily speak Greek."
                                                    >
                                                    > With the addition of a few other facts we can derive the following from this passage:
                                                    >
                                                    > 1. "Scythian" is the Greek derived word for the term Askenaz or Ashkenazi in the Hebrew Bible. Not only the verses of the Bible point to this, but the derivation from Assyrian "Askuza" Scythian is highly likely. The later Rabbinic identification of Askenaz with Germany is certainly a folk etymology.
                                                    >
                                                    > 2. The Hunnic Empire was a near predecessor of the Khazar empire. It was the grandfather of the Khazar empire and ruled the same area of the Russian steppes as the Khazars, which that the Greeks called Scythia.
                                                    >
                                                    > 3. The Hunnic empire used Gothic as a lingua franca. Notice that the Scythians (Askenaz) used Gothic as a second language in addition to their many native languages. The native languages are likely the source of the (10%) Slavic vocabulary in Yiddish.
                                                    >
                                                    > 4. Yiddish has about 80% Germanic vocabulary, 10% Slavic, 10% medieval Hebrew Aramaic, and some Latin loanwords, but few if any Greek loanwords. Notice from Priscus that the Scythians (Askenaz) spoke native languages (10% Slavic), but used Gothic as a lingua franca (80% Germanic), knew some Latin (Latin loanwords), but knew little Greek (0% Greek loan words). Later with the conversion of Ashkenaz (Scythia) to Judaism during the early medieval period this Gothic would gain 10% Hebrew Aramaic. Still later the Germanic Gothic vocabulary of this protoyiddish would be progressively changed, reconciled, made consistent with the neighboring vocabulary of medieval High German. No doubt this last was facilitated by the higher culture of the medieval High German, but also by the Rabbis folk etymology that Askenaz = German.
                                                    >
                                                    > 5. Now the Goths were the rulers of Scythia prior to the Huns. The Greeks often referred to the Goths as Scythians. But notice that the citation from Priscus says that the Scythians were the subjects of the Huns. The later Khazars when they converted to Judaism and adopted Hebrew mythology stated that they were descended not from Shem, but from Togormah. Who is Togormah in the Hebrew Bible? Togormah is the brother of Ashkenaz. Hence, the Rabbis that converted the Khazar rulers of Scythia (Askenaz) taught them that they were the brothers of their subjects.
                                                    >
                                                    > 6. You will hear statements that the archeology and historical documents support the idea that only a few Khazars converted to Judaism. These statements are not true. In fact, the archeology supports a change in burial practice consistent Judaism. And the historical records of the few visitors to Khazaria sometimes but not all the time support the idea that all the people of Khazaria had converted to Judaism. It should be noted that the conversion to Judaism appears to have occurred in stages and was not all at once. Thus, accounting for the differences in historical accounts.
                                                    >
                                                    > I expect that the recently discovered Khazar capital at Itil will reveal a text in protoyiddish. And when it does we will no doubt have a new document in ancient Gothic. Great discoveries have yet to be uncovered.
                                                    >
                                                    > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <600cell@...> wrote:
                                                    > >
                                                    > > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Yair Davidiy <britam@n...> wrote:
                                                    > > > At 11:49 AM 4/30/2005, you wrote:
                                                    > > > >Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 11:49:48 +0200
                                                    > > > >From: Tore Gannholm <tore@g...>
                                                    > > > >Subject: Re: [gothic-l] Gothic, Yiddish and High German
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > > Avraham Polok, "Khuzaria", (Hebrew) Tel Aviv, 5711 (1950?) published
                                                    > > an
                                                    > > > important
                                                    > > > study on the Khazars that researchers still refer to.
                                                    > > > He quotes from different sources claiming that Yiddish derives from
                                                    > > Gothish
                                                    > > > and himself suggests that the Khazars were a kind of Gothic offshoot.
                                                    > > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > > Hi Yair,
                                                    > >
                                                    > > Have you seen the book? I'd be curious to know what linguistic
                                                    > > evidence Avraham Polok used to relate Yiddish and Gothic.
                                                    > >
                                                    > > Llama Nom
                                                    > >
                                                    >
                                                    >


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