Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [gothic-l] what is the real objection against the Scandiavian origin of the Goths?

Expand Messages
  • Tore Gannholm
    Hi, I don t think there is any real objections against the Baltic area with Gotland in the centre having been very influential in the forming of the Goths. It
    Message 1 of 7 , Apr 5, 2005
    • 0 Attachment
      Hi,
      I don't think there is any real objections against the Baltic area with
      Gotland in the centre having been very influential in the forming of
      the Goths.
      It is only that some scholars can't accept this. The Polish
      archaeologists who have excavated the Gothic areas in the last 30 years
      fully accept it.

      However, the problem is more complicated than most people think. The
      contacts during the millennia before zero between Gotland and some
      costal areas on the Swedish Baltic coast are extensive.

      Suggested reading Kaliffs book "Gothic connections"
      http://www.stavgard.com/Gotland/gothicconnectio_/gothic/default.htm

      Tore



      On Mar 23, 2005, at 9:56 PM, vendelkrka wrote:

      >
      >
      > I have read a lot about the pros and cons about the Scandinavian
      > origin of the Goths, and I simply don't understand why some scholars
      > are so categorically against it.
      >
      > The way I see it, Poland is either the urheimat of the Germanic
      > languages, or the Gothic language arrived to the Vistula basin from
      > somewhere else. If we look at toponymics the names Götaland and
      > Gotland are already suggesting where to look for the origin. If we
      > combine with Jordanes account, it becomes even more convincing.
      > Moreover, the Gothic language had a great deal in common with North
      > Germanic and especially with Gutnish.
      >
      > Now, I'd be perfectly happy if there was a just as convincing theory
      > about a north German origin, but AFAIK, there is none.
      >
      > My impression is that the archaelogical objections are carefully
      > limited to the time period after 100 BC, ignoring the period 600 BC-
      > 300 BC when the climate of Scandinavia deteriorated.
      >
      > So what is the REAL problem with the Scandinavian origin?
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Ingemar Nordgren
      Hi Vendelkraka and Tore! I agree with Tore and his reccomendation of literature is good. Still I must point out that I have just such a theory that
      Message 2 of 7 , Apr 5, 2005
      • 0 Attachment
        Hi Vendelkraka and Tore!

        I agree with Tore and his reccomendation of literature is good. Still
        I must point out that I have just such a theory that Vendelkraka asks
        for. It is the main object with my book 'The Well Spring of the
        Goths' that is available as both paperback and e-book on most net
        book stores.

        Best
        Ingemar


        --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Tore Gannholm <tore@g...> wrote:
        > Hi,
        > I don't think there is any real objections against the Baltic area with
        > Gotland in the centre having been very influential in the forming of
        > the Goths.
        > It is only that some scholars can't accept this. The Polish
        > archaeologists who have excavated the Gothic areas in the last 30 years
        > fully accept it.
        >
        > However, the problem is more complicated than most people think. The
        > contacts during the millennia before zero between Gotland and some
        > costal areas on the Swedish Baltic coast are extensive.
        >
        > Suggested reading Kaliffs book "Gothic connections"
        > http://www.stavgard.com/Gotland/gothicconnectio_/gothic/default.htm
        >
        > Tore
        >
        >
        >
        > On Mar 23, 2005, at 9:56 PM, vendelkrka wrote:
        >
        > >
        > >
        > > I have read a lot about the pros and cons about the Scandinavian
        > > origin of the Goths, and I simply don't understand why some scholars
        > > are so categorically against it.
        > >
        > > The way I see it, Poland is either the urheimat of the Germanic
        > > languages, or the Gothic language arrived to the Vistula basin from
        > > somewhere else. If we look at toponymics the names Götaland and
        > > Gotland are already suggesting where to look for the origin. If we
        > > combine with Jordanes account, it becomes even more convincing.
        > > Moreover, the Gothic language had a great deal in common with North
        > > Germanic and especially with Gutnish.
        > >
        > > Now, I'd be perfectly happy if there was a just as convincing theory
        > > about a north German origin, but AFAIK, there is none.
        > >
        > > My impression is that the archaelogical objections are carefully
        > > limited to the time period after 100 BC, ignoring the period 600 BC-
        > > 300 BC when the climate of Scandinavia deteriorated.
        > >
        > > So what is the REAL problem with the Scandinavian origin?
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • macmaster@riseup.net
        Hi all, In my understanding, the objection to a prehistoric Scandinavian origin for the Goths is simply that it is unverifiable. The archaeological remains
        Message 3 of 7 , Apr 5, 2005
        • 0 Attachment
          Hi all,
          In my understanding, the objection to a prehistoric Scandinavian origin
          for the Goths is simply that it is unverifiable. The archaeological
          remains from the Vistula and elsewhere are probably Gothic but, being that
          of a preliterate people, are impossible to verify as being from the
          speakers of any language.
          Also, it's important not to have too much faith in what Jordanes writes
          regarding Gothic origins: while he uses what are probably real sixth
          century traditions regarding Gothic origins, he does place the migration
          out of Scandinavia impossibly early (several centuries before the Trojan
          War!!!) and identifies the Goths with practically every pre-Hunnic steppe
          people (most of whom were Iranic rather than Germanic).
          At best, all that can be said for certain about the early Goths is that
          they probably came from Scandinavia, etc; before the third century,
          everything is hypothetical.
          So, there is no "real problem" with it beyond the fact that it cannot
          advance from hypothesis to fact.

          Tom MacMaster

          Ingemar Nordgren said:
          >
          >
          > Hi Vendelkraka and Tore!
          >
          > I agree with Tore and his reccomendation of literature is good. Still
          > I must point out that I have just such a theory that Vendelkraka asks
          > for. It is the main object with my book 'The Well Spring of the
          > Goths' that is available as both paperback and e-book on most net
          > book stores.
          >
          > Best
          > Ingemar
          >
          >
          > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Tore Gannholm wrote:
          > > Hi,
          > > I don't think there is any real objections against the Baltic area with
          > > Gotland in the centre having been very influential in the forming of
          > > the Goths.
          > > It is only that some scholars can't accept this. The Polish
          > > archaeologists who have excavated the Gothic areas in the last 30 years
          > > fully accept it.
          > >
          > > However, the problem is more complicated than most people think. The
          > > contacts during the millennia before zero between Gotland and some
          > > costal areas on the Swedish Baltic coast are extensive.
          > >
          > > Suggested reading Kaliffs book "Gothic connections"
          > > http://www.stavgard.com/Gotland/gothicconnectio_/gothic/default.htm
          > >
          > > Tore
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > On Mar 23, 2005, at 9:56 PM, vendelkrka wrote:
          > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > I have read a lot about the pros and cons about the Scandinavian
          > > > origin of the Goths, and I simply don't understand why some scholars
          > > > are so categorically against it.
          > > >
          > > > The way I see it, Poland is either the urheimat of the Germanic
          > > > languages, or the Gothic language arrived to the Vistula basin from
          > > > somewhere else. If we look at toponymics the names Götaland and
          > > > Gotland are already suggesting where to look for the origin. If we
          > > > combine with Jordanes account, it becomes even more convincing.
          > > > Moreover, the Gothic language had a great deal in common with North
          > > > Germanic and especially with Gutnish.
          > > >
          > > > Now, I'd be perfectly happy if there was a just as convincing theory
          > > > about a north German origin, but AFAIK, there is none.
          > > >
          > > > My impression is that the archaelogical objections are carefully
          > > > limited to the time period after 100 BC, ignoring the period 600 BC-
          > > > 300 BC when the climate of Scandinavia deteriorated.
          > > >
          > > > So what is the REAL problem with the Scandinavian origin?
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > >
          > >
          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a blank
          > email to .
          >
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          > To visit your group on the web, go to:
          > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gothic-l/
          > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          > gothic-l-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
        • Ingemar Nordgren
          Hi Tom, Sure it probably remains a hypothesis but there are different hypotheses that still should be compared. I do not claim to be able to prove a
          Message 4 of 7 , Apr 7, 2005
          • 0 Attachment
            Hi Tom,

            Sure it probably remains a hypothesis but there are different
            hypotheses that still should be compared. I do not claim to be able to
            prove a Scandinavian origin - I just conclude there are many facts
            speaking for a Scandinavian origin of some of the Goths - not all. I
            besides mean there is not one single Gothic people but several which
            is definitely a new definition and this gives the Goths another
            background. Their original ethnicity was not the specific language of
            the Vistula Goths but the divine origin of all Gothic peoples.Just
            check my Ph.D.- thesis and you might be surprised!

            Best regards
            Ingemar




            -- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, macmaster@r... wrote:
            >
            > Hi all,
            > In my understanding, the objection to a prehistoric Scandinavian origin
            > for the Goths is simply that it is unverifiable. ....

            > So, there is no "real problem" with it beyond the fact that it cannot
            > advance from hypothesis to fact.
            >
            > Tom MacMaster
          • OSCAR HERRERA
            ive read jordaunes account of the goths and their deeds and he says they came from a place called gutlan of scandinavia origin and of course left those areas
            Message 5 of 7 , Apr 7, 2005
            • 0 Attachment
              ive read jordaunes account of the goths and their deeds and he says they came from a place called gutlan of scandinavia origin and of course left those areas due to overcrowding and war....oscar

              Ingemar Nordgren <ingemar@...> wrote:


              Hi Tom,

              Sure it probably remains a hypothesis but there are different
              hypotheses that still should be compared. I do not claim to be able to
              prove a Scandinavian origin - I just conclude there are many facts
              speaking for a Scandinavian origin of some of the Goths - not all. I
              besides mean there is not one single Gothic people but several which
              is definitely a new definition and this gives the Goths another
              background. Their original ethnicity was not the specific language of
              the Vistula Goths but the divine origin of all Gothic peoples.Just
              check my Ph.D.- thesis and you might be surprised!

              Best regards
              Ingemar




              -- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, macmaster@r... wrote:
              >
              > Hi all,
              > In my understanding, the objection to a prehistoric Scandinavian origin
              > for the Goths is simply that it is unverifiable. ....

              > So, there is no "real problem" with it beyond the fact that it cannot
              > advance from hypothesis to fact.
              >
              > Tom MacMaster








              You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a blank email to .
              Yahoo! Groups Links










              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • vendelkrka
              With all due respect, but the unverifiability claim is a strawman . You can not call it a hypothesis because the hypothesis is that Jordanes account was
              Message 6 of 7 , Apr 9, 2005
              • 0 Attachment
                With all due respect, but the unverifiability claim is a "strawman".
                You can not call it a "hypothesis" because the hypothesis is that
                Jordanes account was wrong. That is why it is a strawman.

                There is both archaeological, toponomical and other linguistic
                support. Moreoever, "certainty" is a rare animal in research. There
                are many generally accepted "facts" that are also hard to verify.

                I should perhaps rephrase my question:

                Why are the demands for proof so high when the Scandinavian origin
                of the Goths is concerned, and why are some (especially German)
                scholars so categorically against it?

                cordially,
                Vendelkråka

                --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, macmaster@r... wrote:
                >
                > Hi all,
                > In my understanding, the objection to a prehistoric Scandinavian
                origin
                > for the Goths is simply that it is unverifiable. The
                archaeological
                > remains from the Vistula and elsewhere are probably Gothic but,
                being that
                > of a preliterate people, are impossible to verify as being from the
                > speakers of any language.
                > Also, it's important not to have too much faith in what Jordanes
                writes
                > regarding Gothic origins: while he uses what are probably real
                sixth
                > century traditions regarding Gothic origins, he does place the
                migration
                > out of Scandinavia impossibly early (several centuries before the
                Trojan
                > War!!!) and identifies the Goths with practically every pre-Hunnic
                steppe
                > people (most of whom were Iranic rather than Germanic).
                > At best, all that can be said for certain about the early Goths is
                that
                > they probably came from Scandinavia, etc; before the third century,
                > everything is hypothetical.
                > So, there is no "real problem" with it beyond the fact that it
                cannot
                > advance from hypothesis to fact.
                >
                > Tom MacMaster
                >
                > Ingemar Nordgren said:
                > >
                > >
                > > Hi Vendelkraka and Tore!
                > >
                > > I agree with Tore and his reccomendation of literature is
                good. Still
                > > I must point out that I have just such a theory that
                Vendelkraka asks
                > > for. It is the main object with my book 'The Well Spring of the
                > > Goths' that is available as both paperback and e-book on most
                net
                > > book stores.
                > >
                > > Best
                > > Ingemar
                > >
                > >
                > > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Tore Gannholm wrote:
                > > > Hi,
                > > > I don't think there is any real objections against the Baltic
                area with
                > > > Gotland in the centre having been very influential in the
                forming of
                > > > the Goths.
                > > > It is only that some scholars can't accept this. The Polish
                > > > archaeologists who have excavated the Gothic areas in the
                last 30 years
                > > > fully accept it.
                > > >
                > > > However, the problem is more complicated than most people
                think. The
                > > > contacts during the millennia before zero between Gotland and
                some
                > > > costal areas on the Swedish Baltic coast are extensive.
                > > >
                > > > Suggested reading Kaliffs book "Gothic connections"
                > > >
                http://www.stavgard.com/Gotland/gothicconnectio_/gothic/default.htm
                > > >
                > > > Tore
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > On Mar 23, 2005, at 9:56 PM, vendelkrka wrote:
                > > >
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > > I have read a lot about the pros and cons about the
                Scandinavian
                > > > > origin of the Goths, and I simply don't understand why
                some scholars
                > > > > are so categorically against it.
                > > > >
                > > > > The way I see it, Poland is either the urheimat of the
                Germanic
                > > > > languages, or the Gothic language arrived to the Vistula
                basin from
                > > > > somewhere else. If we look at toponymics the names
                Götaland and
                > > > > Gotland are already suggesting where to look for the
                origin. If we
                > > > > combine with Jordanes account, it becomes even more
                convincing.
                > > > > Moreover, the Gothic language had a great deal in common
                with North
                > > > > Germanic and especially with Gutnish.
                > > > >
                > > > > Now, I'd be perfectly happy if there was a just as
                convincing theory
                > > > > about a north German origin, but AFAIK, there is none.
                > > > >
                > > > > My impression is that the archaelogical objections are
                carefully
                > > > > limited to the time period after 100 BC, ignoring the
                period 600 BC-
                > > > > 300 BC when the climate of Scandinavia deteriorated.
                > > > >
                > > > > So what is the REAL problem with the Scandinavian origin?
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a
                blank
                > > email to .
                > >
                > >
                > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                > > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gothic-l/
                > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                > > gothic-l-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                Service.
              Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.