Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: William Morris' _Markamannans_

Expand Messages
  • llama_nom
    Hails! ... to ... follow ... etc. ... Fair enough. In fact even the Gothic scribes occasionally used in place of the usual . By ... their ... (cf.
    Message 1 of 4 , Mar 25, 2005
    • 0 Attachment

      > ... I have been thinking about this. If the _Markamannans_ belong
      > the Goths from the period from before the contacts with Greek
      > language and before Wulfilas' Bible translation, maybe I should
      > accept different spelling of the such "Gothic" names? I would
      > J.R.R. Tolkien and the way he presented the "Gothic" names of his
      > Northmen (ancestors of the Rohirrim), e.g. Marhari, Vinitharia
      > I mean names where /-ng-/ is spelled <-ng->, and not <-gg-> etc.

      Fair enough. In fact even the Gothic scribes occasionally used <ng>
      in place of the usual <gg>.

      > the way don't you think - I mean the people who know Tolkien's
      > writings - that these names of the Northmen are in fact not Gothic
      > but *Ingweonic? If the Rohirrim in the LotR speak Old English,
      > ancestors cannot be Gothic users - not in Tolkien's books! Tolkien
      > was a wise linguist, he was interested in the _Inguaeones_
      (cf. "The
      > Book of Lost Tales" for instance) and he was very careful in
      > creating the consistent world.

      Excellent logic. Having looked at this, I've come to the tentative
      conclusion that maybe it would be best to see a name like Marhwini
      as Proto (Primitive/Prehistoric) Old English, prior to umlaut,
      rather than Common Ingvaeonic, especially given the loss of medial
      connecting vowel in Marhwini. This might be more consistent with
      the final –a in Vidugauja.

      Though described by Christopher Tolkien as "Latin" spellings, JRRT
      has actually corrected the attested Latin spelling 'Vidigoia' to the
      form the name would have had in, for example, Biblical Gothic, or
      some other early Germanic dialect... (I think JRRT used <v> in
      Vidugavia, etc. to make the names look stranger to English eyes, and
      thus suggest something more archaic than the language of the Mark.)
      But you're right, Gothic would make no sense as the ancestor of the
      Old English language of Rohan, and indeed Tolkien has forms such
      as 'Marhwini', which is more like archaic Old English (the Gothic
      form would be *Marhawins), and Marhari: Marh + hari < Gmc. *harjaz.
      The relevent WG sound changes are dealt with in A Campbell "Old
      English Grammar" 331.1.4 (loss of final unaccented /a/) and 400
      (consequent syllabification of former semivowels). According to
      331.1.4, connecting vowels in compounds were preserved in WG. They
      survive in OHG, but are lost in prehistoric OE (Campbell 331.1.4 and
      341), that's to say before the first extensive written records (but
      see below for an example cited by Looijenga).

      In UNFINISHED TALES Christopher Tolkien writes:
      "It is an interesting fact, not referred to I believe in any of my
      father's writings, that the names of the early kings and princes of
      the Northmen and the Ëothëod are Gothic in form, not Old English
      (Anglo-Saxon) as in the case of Leod, Eorl, and the later Rohirrim.
      Vidugavia is Latinized in spelling, representing Gothic Widugauja
      ('wood-dweller'), a recorded Gothic name, and similarly Vidumavi
      Gothic Widumawi ('wood-maiden').
      ...Since, as is explained in Appendix F(II), the language of the
      Rohirrim was 'made to resemble ancient English', the names of the
      ancestors of the Rohirrim are cast into the forms of the earliest
      recorded Germanic language.


      *Widugauja is known to history and legend as a Gothic hero, but his
      name is also preserved in OE poems as Wudga (in Widsiþ), Widia (in
      Waldere). Something that might not tie in with the names of
      Tolkien's Northmen being Ingvaeonic is the masculine weak ending in –
      a(n), rather than –ó(n) – represented in literary OE by –e and –a
      respectively. (These vowels survived due to the nasal.) I think
      this swapping over of masculine and feminine weak declensions, in
      the nominative singular, is supposed to be an innovation common to
      the West Germanic languages, including South German, but I don't
      know enough about these early stages to say quite when it happened,
      or where it began, or whether that necessarily rules out the
      possibility of Ingvaeonic having undergone its characteristic
      changes first, before masc. on-stem nominatives became the norm in
      WG. For what it's worth, some of the earliest runic inscriptions in
      what is now Denmark apparently have masc. on-stems, others masc. an-
      stems. Opinions vary on how best to define the language of these
      inscriptions. Actually it's not even a simple swapping over of
      declensions in OE, so I don't really know the full story about
      this. OHG agrees with OE in the nom. sg. of masc. & fem. weak
      nouns, but has extra complications in other cases, more like Gothic –
      but OE has levelled all weak nouns to –an(a) / -um in the oblique

      But maybe the final –a in JRRT's Vidugauja is meant to represent the
      development of WG –ó(n) in Proto OE, rather than Germanic –a(n)?
      I'm not sure about Vinitharya. Could it be the cognate of Go.
      *Winiþareis (EG -árís = WG -ár(i)ja < Gmc. árijaz), or of Go.*Winiþ
      (a)-harjis (Gmc. *harjaz > WG *harja > Proto-OE *hari / hæri > OE
      here)? Why not *Vinithari, like Marhari?

      Runic evidence from England (dates according to Page):
      Caister-by-Norwich astralagus (5th c.): raihan (= OE rahan >
      ran) "of a (male?) roe deer" (genitive, or some oblique case).
      Watchfield fitting (6th c.): hariboki wusa (a name?).
      Loveden Hill urn (5th - 6th c.): siþæbæd [p/þ?]ic[p/þ?] hlæ[?], or
      maybe `siþæbld'. The first word is a name, the last probably
      means "grave".
      Chessel Down scabbard (6th c.): æco sori (the first word has been
      linked to the OE personal name Acca).

      From, or theoretically from, the Netherlands (dates according to
      Folkstone gold coin / tremissis (650): aniwulufu (Friesian)
      Skanomodu solidus (575-610): skanamodu
      (unknown find spot, belonged to Emglish king George III, but
      probably Friesian origin). Note the connecting vowel, albeit not
      the expected –i-, if this first element is indeed skauni-
      "beautiful" as Page suggests (An Introduction to English Runes 185).
      Chessel Down scabbard mount (mid 6th c.): æco sœri (a name? If so,
      Arum small wooden sword (late 8th c.) edæ:boda "oath messenger"
      (In reference to this word, Looijenga suggests that this <æ> is a
      connecting vowel (Kompositionsfugenvokal), and even cites an early
      English example: fulæ-trea.)

      Well, that's all I've got time for now, but see ch. 9 here for more
      Netherlands runic inscriptions:

      > And why not *_Wulfunns_ (like _Greutungi_). What is the rule, that
      > sometimes we can see the suffix _-ugg-_, and sometimes _-igg-_?

      Good point. OE wylfingas, ON ylfingr -- but I guess *Wulfungos is
      just as likely. Not sure if there's any rule, but I wonder if a
      particular ending would come to be normal for a particular name.
      E.g. how consistent were Roman authors in writing Greutungi, and how
      well does Roman usage match the Polish topographic evidence? The
      index to Peter Heather's "The Goths" has Tervingi, Greutungi,
      Silingi... But Gordon "Introduction to Old Norse" cites Latin
      Greutingi (ON Grýtinga "of the Greutings"). I've also see a Greek
      spelling Groqiggoi (q = theta). The difference is due to vowel
      gradation (ablaut), as in Vandali, Vanduli, Vandili, all of which
      are reflected later in Old Norse.

      > In my "archaic" spelling can I write *_Wulfings_/*_Wulfungs_?
      > > 2) *Mairqiwidus ('mierce' is a ja-stem in OE)
      > So in my spelling *_Merkwiwidus_? Etc.

      That's right. This is closer to runic spelling too. Are you
      intending to distinguish vowel length?

      > My new question concerns the character bringing the name _Elfhere_
      > in Morris. Shall I translate it into *_Albaharjis_? What is the
      > Gothic equivalent of the Old English _-here_ 'warrior'?

      Yes, Go. harjis is cognate with OE here. As a separate word it
      means "army" in Go., OE and ON. As far as I know the
      meaning "warrior" is confined to names. *Alba- is probably right
      too, although there is some possibility that it could have been
      *Albi-. Go. personal names recorded in Latin include Albis, Albila,
      Alverigus. But these don't always reflect unstressed vowels
      accurately -- or maybe they weren't clear even in native Gothic
      speech when recorded. The word "elf" is an a-stem in Norse, OS &
      MHG; i-stem MDu. OE has both a-stem and i-stem.

      > Have you read Morris' "The Tale of the House of the Wolfings"?

      No, but I'd like to when I get time. I was glad to find it at this
      William Morris site, along with many of his other works:


      The place-name articles look extremely interesting. I wish I could
      read Polish. Is the distinction between -ung and -ing preserved in
      the Polish names as a,g and a,dz (using a comma to represent the
      nasal mark)?

      Have you noticed any evidence in these place names for differences
      between early Gothic / East Germanic, and the language of the Gothic
      bible? For instance, is it possible to date the loss of the stem
      vowel in a word like Go. *baks < Gmc. *bakiz? Or the devoicing of
      final /b/, /d/, and /z/? Or whether Gmc. /ai/ and /au/ had become
      monophthongs in any positions (stressed or unstressed). Or the
      change jj > ddj? Or whether /e/ had fallen together with /i/. Is
      there any evidence that a-mutation ever operated in the dialects of
      Germanic that supplied these place names in Poland? Crimean Gothic
      appears to show a-mutation, e.g. 'goltz', 'schuos' (probably an
      error for *schnos), but Biblical Gothic doesn't. Are there any
      features of the place names that suggest distinctively East Germanic
      origin to you? Ah, so many questions...

      Llama Nom
    Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.