Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Critique wanted on Gothic pronunciation

Expand Messages
  • kurisuto1
    Hello, I recorded myself reading Mark 2:1-7 in Gothic: http://penguin.pearson.swarthmore.edu/~scrist1/mark_gothic.html I am considering recoding a larger body
    Message 1 of 7 , Mar 6, 2005
    • 0 Attachment
      Hello,

      I recorded myself reading Mark 2:1-7 in Gothic:

      http://penguin.pearson.swarthmore.edu/~scrist1/mark_gothic.html

      I am considering recoding a larger body of Gothic text, so I'd like
      to get
      as many mistakes ironed out as possible.

      I generally followed the pronunciations suggested by Wright (or, at
      least, I meant to). However, I followed later scholarship in
      pronouncing
      ai, au as monophthongs regardless of their etymology.

      Thanks!
    • thiudans
      Sean- Sounds very good, maybe how text would be read in church, very solemnly. I would recommend always to hold the double consonants as double even in
      Message 2 of 7 , Mar 8, 2005
      • 0 Attachment
        Sean-

        Sounds very good, maybe how text would be read in church, very solemnly.

        I would recommend always to hold the double consonants as double even in unstressed
        syllables. Listen to finnish, it has good examples of this difficult nuance. My tendency is
        toward pronouncing d, b as continuants whenever they occur between vowels, whether
        initially finally or medially in a word or morpheme, but your version perhaps matches the
        later sound more (together with monopththongic ai and au). The holding of unstressed
        vowel (as in endings) was perhaps slightly too long, so that it sound "over-enunciated".
        Also, short "i" should probably sound less fronted (imma vs. eima), more like MnE "it" or
        Fin. "sinulla". I'll keep listening to it for anything else. Very nice work all in all.

        -Matthew

        --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "kurisuto1" <kurisuto@u...> wrote:
        >
        >
        > Hello,
        >
        > I recorded myself reading Mark 2:1-7 in Gothic:
        >
        > http://penguin.pearson.swarthmore.edu/~scrist1/mark_gothic.html
        >
        > I am considering recoding a larger body of Gothic text, so I'd like
        > to get
        > as many mistakes ironed out as possible.
        >
        > I generally followed the pronunciations suggested by Wright (or, at
        > least, I meant to). However, I followed later scholarship in
        > pronouncing
        > ai, au as monophthongs regardless of their etymology.
        >
        > Thanks!
      • llama_nom
        ... eima), more like MnE it or ... nice work all in all. Matthew, Ah, this was something I noticed on your own reading of Bagme Bloma. What is the evidence
        Message 3 of 7 , Mar 9, 2005
        • 0 Attachment
          > Also, short "i" should probably sound less fronted (imma vs.
          eima), more like MnE "it" or
          > Fin. "sinulla". I'll keep listening to it for anything else. Very
          nice work all in all.


          Matthew,

          Ah, this was something I noticed on your own reading of Bagme
          Bloma. What is the evidence regarding short "i"? I've been
          imagining it as a tense vowel, as such seems to have been the case
          in the earliest stages of other early Germanic languages, but I
          don't really have any firm evidence. True, short "i" and "e" are
          often mixed up in Gothic names transcribed into Latin, but this is
          explainable in terms of developments in the Latin vowel system:

          [i] > [I] > [e], [e:]

          [i:] > [i], [i:]

          ...with length determined by stress. Gothic "i" and "ei" are both
          used for Greek "i", which I presume was a tense vowel then as now.
          Do you know of any examples of Gothic names with this vowel recorded
          by Greek authors?

          Llama Nom
        • thiudans
          Hails I had forgotten about that recording! I wonder how it would sound to hear again, after all these years. I think I was making continuant too many d s and
          Message 4 of 7 , Mar 12, 2005
          • 0 Attachment
            Hails

            I had forgotten about that recording! I wonder how it would sound to
            hear again, after all these years. I think I was making continuant too
            many d's and b's, and of course pronouncing ai/au diphthongs.

            Perhaps you are right about i. I took my cues also from noting the
            apparently allophonic nature of short i or short e in early Germanic,
            perhaps this contributes to the ease toward i-mutation.

            For instance in Procopius: Ala'rikhos, Gise'likhos, Oui'ttigis,
            O'ptaris (-rin). The accent suggests the last two syllables are short
            in length. The nature of the short i however is still debated. I was
            taught pronunciation of ancient Greek according to the phonologies
            outlined in Vox Graeca of Sidney Allen. I don't recall his discussion
            of short i, but I will try to find it. I presume the later Greek had
            tense short i in accordance with later demotic, perhaps already in
            Byzantine. Stephen Daitz is perhaps more well known authority on
            Classical Greek pronunciation, esp. for theater. You can read about
            his CD/book:
            http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1579700969/ref=pd_sim_b_2/104-0209094-6289540?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance


            Anyway the pronunciation is impressive. It is also good to hear
            different interpretations, almost like different "accents", perhaps
            similar to how Latin was regionalized by various languages' influence.


            --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <600cell@o...> wrote:
            >
            >
            >
            > > Also, short "i" should probably sound less fronted (imma vs.
            > eima), more like MnE "it" or
            > > Fin. "sinulla". I'll keep listening to it for anything else. Very
            > nice work all in all.
            >
            >
            > Matthew,
            >
            > Ah, this was something I noticed on your own reading of Bagme
            > Bloma. What is the evidence regarding short "i"? I've been
            > imagining it as a tense vowel, as such seems to have been the case
            > in the earliest stages of other early Germanic languages, but I
            > don't really have any firm evidence. True, short "i" and "e" are
            > often mixed up in Gothic names transcribed into Latin, but this is
            > explainable in terms of developments in the Latin vowel system:
            >
            > [i] > [I] > [e], [e:]
            >
            > [i:] > [i], [i:]
            >
            > ...with length determined by stress. Gothic "i" and "ei" are both
            > used for Greek "i", which I presume was a tense vowel then as now.
            > Do you know of any examples of Gothic names with this vowel recorded
            > by Greek authors?
            >
            > Llama Nom
          • OSCAR HERRERA
            thiudan,haf ju thagkjun bi stadandam gaskieran boko faur gutiska du angliska,thau sama ain skuld......ik meinan ana so innaizo natjana......sijau llama-nom
            Message 5 of 7 , Mar 12, 2005
            • 0 Attachment
              thiudan,haf ju thagkjun bi stadandam gaskieran boko faur gutiska du angliska,thau sama ain skuld......ik meinan ana so innaizo natjana......sijau llama-nom mag.....thiudan,have you thought of putting a translater for gothic to english...or someone should.....i mean on the internet....maybe llama nom can.....oscar

              thiudans <thiudans@...> wrote:

              Hails

              I had forgotten about that recording! I wonder how it would sound to
              hear again, after all these years. I think I was making continuant too
              many d's and b's, and of course pronouncing ai/au diphthongs.

              Perhaps you are right about i. I took my cues also from noting the
              apparently allophonic nature of short i or short e in early Germanic,
              perhaps this contributes to the ease toward i-mutation.

              For instance in Procopius: Ala'rikhos, Gise'likhos, Oui'ttigis,
              O'ptaris (-rin). The accent suggests the last two syllables are short
              in length. The nature of the short i however is still debated. I was
              taught pronunciation of ancient Greek according to the phonologies
              outlined in Vox Graeca of Sidney Allen. I don't recall his discussion
              of short i, but I will try to find it. I presume the later Greek had
              tense short i in accordance with later demotic, perhaps already in
              Byzantine. Stephen Daitz is perhaps more well known authority on
              Classical Greek pronunciation, esp. for theater. You can read about
              his CD/book:
              http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1579700969/ref=pd_sim_b_2/104-0209094-6289540?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance


              Anyway the pronunciation is impressive. It is also good to hear
              different interpretations, almost like different "accents", perhaps
              similar to how Latin was regionalized by various languages' influence.


              --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <600cell@o...> wrote:
              >
              >
              >
              > > Also, short "i" should probably sound less fronted (imma vs.
              > eima), more like MnE "it" or
              > > Fin. "sinulla". I'll keep listening to it for anything else. Very
              > nice work all in all.
              >
              >
              > Matthew,
              >
              > Ah, this was something I noticed on your own reading of Bagme
              > Bloma. What is the evidence regarding short "i"? I've been
              > imagining it as a tense vowel, as such seems to have been the case
              > in the earliest stages of other early Germanic languages, but I
              > don't really have any firm evidence. True, short "i" and "e" are
              > often mixed up in Gothic names transcribed into Latin, but this is
              > explainable in terms of developments in the Latin vowel system:
              >
              > [i] > [I] > [e], [e:]
              >
              > [i:] > [i], [i:]
              >
              > ...with length determined by stress. Gothic "i" and "ei" are both
              > used for Greek "i", which I presume was a tense vowel then as now.
              > Do you know of any examples of Gothic names with this vowel recorded
              > by Greek authors?
              >
              > Llama Nom






              You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a blank email to .
              Yahoo! Groups Links










              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • llama_nom
              Hails Matþaiu! 1) GOTHIC PRONUNCIATION http://www.oe.eclipse.co.uk/nom/mark2.mp3 There´s my version of the passage Sean recorded, the beginning of Mark 2.
              Message 6 of 7 , Mar 12, 2005
              • 0 Attachment
                Hails Matþaiu!


                1) GOTHIC PRONUNCIATION

                http://www.oe.eclipse.co.uk/nom/mark2.mp3

                There´s my version of the passage Sean recorded, the beginning of
                Mark 2. In spite of my intentions, a few of those short high vowels
                sound a bit lax to me after all, e.g. [sUns]. Oh well. Sadly your
                recitation of Bagme Bloma is no longer working, though the text
                portions of your old site are still accessible. It´s a while since
                I heard it, and I can´t remember now how /d/ and /b/ fared. I
                wonder if we'll all reach a concensus, or continue speaking our
                different 'dialects'.

                > For instance in Procopius: Ala'rikhos, Gise'likhos, Oui'ttigis,
                > O'ptaris (-rin). The accent suggests the last two syllables are
                short

                That's interesting. A similar shortening is posited for -ric and
                other second elements of Old English names. Is the first part of
                Gise'likhos supposed to be Got. *geisls? And what would that say
                about our attempts to deduce Gothic phonetics from the placement of
                the Greek accent!? What do we know about Greek epsilon at this
                time? Oui'ttigis: maybe useful, but is the first element (in
                Wulfilan spelling) *weit- or *wit-? I guess O'ptaris might indicate
                a less tense realisation of /u/. Or maybe it owes more to the fact
                that Greek _ou_ would only exist in a longer variant in a stressed
                syllable, in comparison with the Gothic short /u/. And is Procopius
                likely to be basing these on hearing the names spoken by Goths, in
                Gothic, or could he have heard them, at first or second hand,
                through the medium of Latin (still the lingua-franca of the
                Byzantine of the military?). Ah, so many questions...


                2) I-UMLAUT, A TORTUOUS PHILOLOGICAL INTERLUDE

                > Perhaps you are right about i. I took my cues also from noting the
                > apparently allophonic nature of short i or short e in early
                Germanic,
                > perhaps this contributes to the ease toward i-mutation.

                Good point, they must have been fairly close during the period when
                this change operated, but then I suppose that only gives us relative
                information. Over the the expanses of time and space we're talking
                about, it's hard to make absolute distinctions so fine. Wulfila's
                spelling suggests that, by his time at least, Gothic had a mid front
                vowel of some sort and a high front vowel of some sort that were
                quite distinct. The sounds weren't confused by the scribes either.
                These are the two Gothic accents we have a clue about. But for all
                we know other unattested Gothic dialects followed a quite different
                pattern.

                Re. i-umlaut of /e/. This is something that´s been puzzling me,
                probably because I'm a mere amateur and haven't seen enough up-to-
                date scholarship, but in an article on Crimean Gothic, Ottar Grønvik
                (Die dialektgeographische Stellung des Krimgotischen und die
                krimgotische cantilena), i-umlaut of /e/ is listed among the
                defining features of NW Germanic. But I'm not really sure how it's
                possible to reach this conclusion given the phonology of Wulfilan
                Gothic, and the lack of other reliable East Germanic evidence. Any
                ideas?

                Similarly with a-umlaut (central umlaut) of /u/. Wright I think
                assumes that Gothic once shared these features with NWG, but later
                lost the distinction as the high and mid vowels fell together.
                Grønvik characterises both umlauts as innovations in NWG which never
                affected Gothic or its ancestor. But how to be sure? This latter
                change in particular is taken by Grønvik as one piece of evidence
                for a WG strand in the history of Crimean Gothic.


                3) DIPHTHONGS

                Regarding diphthongs, here are some comments I posted (less
                pseudonymously!) on Sean's site.

                http://penguin.pearson.swarthmore.edu/scrist1/cgi-
                bin/gmc_message_board?command=showpost&id=whj2a9fb9224&sort=d



                > It is also good to hear
                > different interpretations, almost like different "accents", perhaps
                > similar to how Latin was regionalized by various languages'
                influence.

                Yes, that would explain it: we´re just Goths from different
                regions. There must have been far more variety than we'll ever know
                about.

                Llama Nom
              • lingua22
                Hello llama_non, I m currently looking for audio in Gothic and I found your post but the url is broken. Do you possibly have a working url to your audio
                Message 7 of 7 , Jun 3, 2014
                • 0 Attachment
                  Hello llama_non, I 'm currently looking for audio in Gothic and I found your post but the url is broken. Do you possibly have a working url to your audio recording?
                Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.