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Re: [gothic-l] Re: *awi, *auja (was: kusanata)

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  • OSCAR HERRERA
    what is goth for then or than....the dictionary says thau,i think ,however im not sure....hwa ist gutiska faur then aithau than...tho boko qaths thau,ik
    Message 1 of 18 , Feb 25, 2005
      what is goth for then or than....the dictionary says thau,i think ,however im not sure....hwa ist gutiska faur then aithau than...tho boko qaths thau,ik thigk,auk ik im ni hails....oscar herrera

      llama_nom <600cell@...> wrote:


      In which case: Go. *Skadinawi = OE scedenig = OIc. Sk�ney = Skaane,
      if this contains the "island" word, in its broader sense of land
      only partly surrounded by water.

      LN



      --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <600cell@o...> wrote:
      >
      >
      > Hails Manie,
      >
      > First, a correction to something I wrote: The word meaning "water
      > meadow, land liable to flooding, island, etc.", jo-stem, feminine,
      > would actually give Gothic *AWI in the nominative singular,
      declined
      > like 'mawi' (acc.sg. *auja, etc.).
      >
      > I think the word meaning "luck" is cited in the form AUJA by
      Koebler
      > because one of the early Scandinavian runic inscriptions which
      > contains it has been considered East Germanic. But the grounds
      for
      > such attributions I gather is often quite tenuous.
      >
      > The regular Gothic form corresponding to Proto Norse AUJA would be
      > *AWI as well, neuter ja-stem, declined like 'hawi'.
      >
      > Llama Nom







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    • Сергей Черныш
      Hello I would like to draw your attention to limestone slab with runic inscription (http://mogilnik.narod.ru/Stella.htm). It was found by South-Bosporian
      Message 2 of 18 , Feb 27, 2005
        Hello
        I would like to draw your attention to limestone slab with runic inscription (http://mogilnik.narod.ru/Stella.htm). It was found by South-Bosporian expedition of the Crimean branch of Institute of archeology National Academy of Science of Ukraine on mountain Opuk in Kerch region (look at the map). Here ancient authors mentioned the city of Kimmerik. In 4 AD on mountain the citadel has been constructed when Uzunlar wall becomes a border between Chersonese and Bosporus. The Citadel survived up to 6 century AD.
        The size of a plate 0,62 х 0,49 х 0,20 m. Height of signs of 0,15 m, relief depth - 0,005-0,009 m (cut out was a background, so cross and signs are elevated).
        Publicators interpreted inscription as a herulic and descended from local pagan sanctuary ( VK Golenko, VJ Yurochkin, OA Sin'ko, AV Djanov - Runicheskij kamen' s gory Opuk i nekotoryje problemy istorii severoprichernomorskich germanzev ( Runic stone from Opuk mountain and some questions of history of germans on North coast of Black sea ) . In: Drevnosti Bospora 2. (Antiquities of Bospor)
        Their interpretation is disputable enough. Some of specialists considered authenticity of this find as doubtful.
        It would be interesting to know your opinion.
      • Troels Brandt
        ... inscription (http://mogilnik.narod.ru/Stella.htm). It was found by South-Bosporian expedition of the Crimean branch of Institute of archeology National
        Message 3 of 18 , Mar 7, 2005
          --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, óÅÒÇÅÊ þÅÒÎÙÛ <authari@m...> wrote:
          >
          >
          > Hello
          > I would like to draw your attention to limestone slab with runic
          inscription (http://mogilnik.narod.ru/Stella.htm). It was found by
          South-Bosporian expedition of the Crimean branch of Institute of
          archeology National Academy of Science of Ukraine on mountain Opuk in
          Kerch region (look at the map). Here ancient authors mentioned the
          city of Kimmerik. In 4 AD on mountain the citadel has been
          constructed when Uzunlar wall becomes a border between Chersonese and
          Bosporus. The Citadel survived up to 6 century AD.
          > The size of a plate 0,62 È 0,49 È 0,20 m. Height of signs of 0,15
          m, relief depth - 0,005-0,009 m (cut out was a background, so cross
          and signs are elevated).
          > Publicators interpreted inscription as a herulic and descended from
          local pagan sanctuary ( VK Golenko, VJ Yurochkin, OA Sin'ko, AV
          Djanov - Runicheskij kamen' s gory Opuk i nekotoryje problemy
          istorii severoprichernomorskich germanzev ( Runic stone from Opuk
          mountain and some questions of history of germans on North coast of
          Black sea ) . In: Drevnosti Bospora 2. (Antiquities of Bospor)
          > Their interpretation is disputable enough. Some of specialists
          considered authenticity of this find as doubtful.
          > It would be interesting to know your opinion.



          I guess you among other possibilities are searching for Scandinavian
          traces as you mentioned the Heruls.

          I am not the right to answer and llama has answered the linquistc
          part. I can only add the theoretical possibility that the runes
          represented their symbolic Norse names: Thurs (troll), Pertra (maybe
          stone), Reid (riding) and As (Ansuz, god), but I doubt - especiallly
          as the T is reverse, which might indicate a forgery or missing
          knowledge of runes. A relief was an unusal way to carve runes - and
          most of the early runes were not carved in stone at all, but I think
          that depends of local practice.

          The Scandinavian wheel crosses normally belonged to the Bronce Ages
          and were at the later bracteats normally replaced by the swastica,
          but a wheel cross was placed at one of the boats from the Baltic Sea
          found in Nydam - contemporary with the dating of your stone if 4 AD
          is the 4th century.

          Primarily I am interested to hear why this stone is combined with the
          Heruls - except for the runes of course. Is there any specific reason
          for that?

          Troels
        • llama_nom
          ... Far from it: I haven´t answered anything, only suggested some more questions! I just tried to give a summary of what sort of inscriptions have been found
          Message 4 of 18 , Mar 7, 2005
            --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "Troels Brandt" <trbrandt@p...>
            wrote:

            > I am not the right to answer and llama has answered the linquistc
            > part.


            Far from it: I haven´t answered anything, only suggested some more
            questions! I just tried to give a summary of what sort of
            inscriptions have been found so far that are attributed to East
            Germanic peoples such as the Goths and Heruls. Anything else is
            pure speculation on my part.

            Troels mentions the idea of runes used as ideographs, standing for
            the concept represented by the name of the rune
            (called "Begriffsrunen" in German, "begrepsruner" in Norwegian,
            which term is sometimes translated "concept runes" in English).
            That´s something I hadn´t thought of, but an interesting possibility
            to consider. The technique is probably used in some Scandinavian
            inscriptions predating the Viking Age (e.g. Stentoften & Gummarp),
            and it is attested somewhat later in Anglo-Saxon manuscripts, but
            there are many inscriptions where the use of concept runes is
            disputed, or impossible to prove. There is one widely accepted
            example of a concept rune in an inscription considered to be Gothic:
            the Pietroassa ring, found in Romania. Here, as at Stentoften, the
            ideograph as part of a text which otherwise is spelt out in full--
            rather than a series of initials.

            Here is a quote from JH Looijenga's book "Runes Around the North
            Sea...", she is talking about finds from before the Viking period:

            "Personally I have difficulties determining when and if an
            ideographic rune (or Begriffsrune) was used, since the runewriters'
            criteria for using them are unknown to us. There is at least
            one clear instance of the use of an ideographic rune: the single j
            rune on the Stentoften stone, representing its name *jara
            meaning `good year' = harvest. The peculiar use of this ideograph
            is further emphasized by the fact that it was carved in an archaic
            fashion. The h in Thorsberg aisgzh may or may not be such a
            Begriffsrune, there is no graphic peculiarity (h has no
            archaic forerunner), but, in Antonsen's interpretation, it could
            symbolize its name on syntactic grounds. In some other cases,
            isolated runes may be read as abbreviations, such as the r in the
            Sievern bracteate, which apparently denotes r[unoz]. Single runes
            may have been read as abbreviations in the oldest inscriptions, and
            may later on have come to represent the symbolic meaning of the
            rune's name."

            http://www.ub.rug.nl/eldoc/dis/arts/j.h.looijenga/


            Needless to say, with a whole series of abbreviations, it would be
            very hard to narrow down the possible interpretations. If they
            stood for the concepts embodied in the rune names, it's easy to
            think up symbolic interpretations, but hard if not impossible to
            test them.

            Llama Nom
          • Troels Brandt
            I agree in your comments below. It was the connection Kerch - Goths - Romenia - Pietroassa - Reicherts J -rune (discussed as at Stentoften) which made me
            Message 5 of 18 , Mar 8, 2005
              I agree in your comments below. It was the connection Kerch - Goths -
              Romenia - Pietroassa - Reicherts "J"-rune (discussed as at
              Stentoften) which made me suggest this theoretical possibility.

              Troels

              --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <600cell@o...> wrote:
              >
              > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "Troels Brandt" <trbrandt@p...>
              > wrote:
              >
              > > I am not the right to answer and llama has answered the linquistc
              > > part.
              >
              >
              > Far from it: I haven´t answered anything, only suggested some more
              > questions! I just tried to give a summary of what sort of
              > inscriptions have been found so far that are attributed to East
              > Germanic peoples such as the Goths and Heruls. Anything else is
              > pure speculation on my part.
              >
              > Troels mentions the idea of runes used as ideographs, standing for
              > the concept represented by the name of the rune
              > (called "Begriffsrunen" in German, "begrepsruner" in Norwegian,
              > which term is sometimes translated "concept runes" in English).
              > That´s something I hadn´t thought of, but an interesting
              possibility
              > to consider. The technique is probably used in some Scandinavian
              > inscriptions predating the Viking Age (e.g. Stentoften & Gummarp),
              > and it is attested somewhat later in Anglo-Saxon manuscripts, but
              > there are many inscriptions where the use of concept runes is
              > disputed, or impossible to prove. There is one widely accepted
              > example of a concept rune in an inscription considered to be
              Gothic:
              > the Pietroassa ring, found in Romania. Here, as at Stentoften, the
              > ideograph as part of a text which otherwise is spelt out in full--
              > rather than a series of initials.
              >
              > Here is a quote from JH Looijenga's book "Runes Around the North
              > Sea...", she is talking about finds from before the Viking period:
              >
              > "Personally I have difficulties determining when and if an
              > ideographic rune (or Begriffsrune) was used, since the runewriters'
              > criteria for using them are unknown to us. There is at least
              > one clear instance of the use of an ideographic rune: the single j
              > rune on the Stentoften stone, representing its name *jara
              > meaning `good year' = harvest. The peculiar use of this ideograph
              > is further emphasized by the fact that it was carved in an archaic
              > fashion. The h in Thorsberg aisgzh may or may not be such a
              > Begriffsrune, there is no graphic peculiarity (h has no
              > archaic forerunner), but, in Antonsen's interpretation, it could
              > symbolize its name on syntactic grounds. In some other cases,
              > isolated runes may be read as abbreviations, such as the r in the
              > Sievern bracteate, which apparently denotes r[unoz]. Single runes
              > may have been read as abbreviations in the oldest inscriptions, and
              > may later on have come to represent the symbolic meaning of the
              > rune's name."
              >
              > http://www.ub.rug.nl/eldoc/dis/arts/j.h.looijenga/
              >
              >
              > Needless to say, with a whole series of abbreviations, it would be
              > very hard to narrow down the possible interpretations. If they
              > stood for the concepts embodied in the rune names, it's easy to
              > think up symbolic interpretations, but hard if not impossible to
              > test them.
              >
              > Llama Nom
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