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*awi, *auja (was: kusanata)

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  • llama_nom
    Hails Manie, First, a correction to something I wrote: The word meaning water meadow, land liable to flooding, island, etc. , jo-stem, feminine, would
    Message 1 of 18 , Feb 24, 2005
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      Hails Manie,

      First, a correction to something I wrote: The word meaning "water
      meadow, land liable to flooding, island, etc.", jo-stem, feminine,
      would actually give Gothic *AWI in the nominative singular, declined
      like 'mawi' (acc.sg. *auja, etc.).

      I think the word meaning "luck" is cited in the form AUJA by Koebler
      because one of the early Scandinavian runic inscriptions which
      contains it has been considered East Germanic. But the grounds for
      such attributions I gather is often quite tenuous.

      The regular Gothic form corresponding to Proto Norse AUJA would be
      *AWI as well, neuter ja-stem, declined like 'hawi'.

      Llama Nom



      --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "Manie Lombard" <manielombard@c...>
      wrote:
      > Hails
      >
      > But does not auja mean "luck"?
      >
      > Manie
      >
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: "llama_nom" <600cell@o...>
      > To: <gothic-l@yahoogroups.com>
      > Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2005 7:25 PM
      > Subject: [gothic-l] Re: kusanata (Jordanes in Gothic)
      >
      >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > Hi Vladimir,
      > >
      > > That's interesting. The nominative singular of Gothic *aujom
      > > (dat.pl.) would be *auja (feminine jo-stem). The actualy form in
      > > Jordanes is Oium/Ojum. Germanic cognates include:
      > >
      > > OIc. ey
      > > OFris. ey
      > > Langobardic *auja
      > > OE ieg (survives in MnE island, with spelling influenced by the
      > > unrelated French isle)
      > >
      > > Under island the Oxford English dictionary comments: "1. a. A
      piece
      > > of land completely surrounded by water. Formerly used less
      > > definitely, including a peninsula, or a place insulated at high
      > > water or during floods, or begirt by marshes, a usage which
      survives
      > > in particular instances..." (e.g. certain place names.)
      > >
      > > (And related, German Au(e) < OHG ouwa.)
      > >
      > > I'm completely ignorant of the history of Finnish, so I don't
      know
      > > if changes in Finnish alone can account for the form given, but
      in
      > > Germanic this word would be *aujo > Proto Norse *auju.
      > >
      > > Llama Nom
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "?????? ????????" <vegorov@i...>
      > > wrote:
      > >> *****
      > >>
      > >> Hi Llama Nom!
      > >>
      > >> If <Aujom> is treated as the dative, what could be the
      nominative?
      > >> Accordingly, may be considered, in your opinion,
      > >> Finnish <oja> "ditch, drain" as a possible origin
      > >> of this mysterious toponym?
      > >>
      > >> Vladimir
      > >>
      > >>
      > >>
      > >>
      > >>
      > >>
      > >> -----Original Message-----
      > >> From: llama_nom [mailto:600cell@o...]
      > >> Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 7:48 PM
      > >> To: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com
      > >> Subject: [gothic-l] Re: kusanata (Jordanes in Gothic)
      > >>
      > >>
      > >>
      > >>
      > >> ...
      > >> "ana Aujom" I treated it like names where the preposition and
      > > dative
      > >> are conventionally fixed as part of the name, as sometimes
      happens
      > >> in OE and ON, since the Latin form seems to have taken over the
      > >> dative ending from Gothic.
      > >> ...
      > >>
      > >> Llama Nom
      > >>
      > >>
      > >>
      > >>
      > >>
      > >>
      > >> You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a
      > > blank email to <gothic-l-unsubscribe@egroups.com>.
      > >> Yahoo! Groups Links
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a
      blank email
      > > to <gothic-l-unsubscribe@egroups.com>.
      > > Yahoo! Groups Links
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
    • llama_nom
      In which case: Go. *Skadinawi = OE scedenig = OIc. Skáney = Skaane, if this contains the island word, in its broader sense of land only partly surrounded by
      Message 2 of 18 , Feb 25, 2005
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        In which case: Go. *Skadinawi = OE scedenig = OIc. Skáney = Skaane,
        if this contains the "island" word, in its broader sense of land
        only partly surrounded by water.

        LN



        --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <600cell@o...> wrote:
        >
        >
        > Hails Manie,
        >
        > First, a correction to something I wrote: The word meaning "water
        > meadow, land liable to flooding, island, etc.", jo-stem, feminine,
        > would actually give Gothic *AWI in the nominative singular,
        declined
        > like 'mawi' (acc.sg. *auja, etc.).
        >
        > I think the word meaning "luck" is cited in the form AUJA by
        Koebler
        > because one of the early Scandinavian runic inscriptions which
        > contains it has been considered East Germanic. But the grounds
        for
        > such attributions I gather is often quite tenuous.
        >
        > The regular Gothic form corresponding to Proto Norse AUJA would be
        > *AWI as well, neuter ja-stem, declined like 'hawi'.
        >
        > Llama Nom
      • faltin2001
        ... Anhang ... Hi Llama Nom, that is interesting. I only cited the supposed link with m.Germ. Heim, because it is mentioned in H. Wolfram s book (I think).
        Message 3 of 18 , Feb 25, 2005
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          --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <600cell@o...> wrote:
          >
          > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "faltin2001" <dirk@s...> wrote:
          >
          > > However, I thought that Jordanes' Oium is linked with modern
          > German
          > > Heim, i.e. home.
          >
          >
          > Hi Dirk,
          >
          > Maybe, but I gather Latin writers usually render Gothic <ai> in
          > personal names as <ai> or <ei>, or sometimes <e> (Dagalaiphus,
          > Gaina, Radagaisus, Vajasindus; Gisaleicus; Gesila, Gesimundus;
          > also 'eils' in De Conviviis Barbaris).
          >
          > But <auj> tends to appear as <oi> in Latin, e.g. names beginning
          > Froi-, Froj- = Go. Frauj-.
          >
          > Examples from Braune/Helm "Gotische Grammatik", and Koebler's
          Anhang
          > 3 Wörterbuch der gotischen Namen:
          >
          > http://www.koeblergerhard.de/gotwbhin.html
          >
          > Llama Nom



          Hi Llama Nom,

          that is interesting. I only cited the supposed link with m.Germ.
          Heim, because it is mentioned in H. Wolfram's book (I think).

          Cheers
          Dirk
        • OSCAR HERRERA
          what is goth for then or than....the dictionary says thau,i think ,however im not sure....hwa ist gutiska faur then aithau than...tho boko qaths thau,ik
          Message 4 of 18 , Feb 25, 2005
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            what is goth for then or than....the dictionary says thau,i think ,however im not sure....hwa ist gutiska faur then aithau than...tho boko qaths thau,ik thigk,auk ik im ni hails....oscar herrera

            llama_nom <600cell@...> wrote:


            In which case: Go. *Skadinawi = OE scedenig = OIc. Sk�ney = Skaane,
            if this contains the "island" word, in its broader sense of land
            only partly surrounded by water.

            LN



            --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <600cell@o...> wrote:
            >
            >
            > Hails Manie,
            >
            > First, a correction to something I wrote: The word meaning "water
            > meadow, land liable to flooding, island, etc.", jo-stem, feminine,
            > would actually give Gothic *AWI in the nominative singular,
            declined
            > like 'mawi' (acc.sg. *auja, etc.).
            >
            > I think the word meaning "luck" is cited in the form AUJA by
            Koebler
            > because one of the early Scandinavian runic inscriptions which
            > contains it has been considered East Germanic. But the grounds
            for
            > such attributions I gather is often quite tenuous.
            >
            > The regular Gothic form corresponding to Proto Norse AUJA would be
            > *AWI as well, neuter ja-stem, declined like 'hawi'.
            >
            > Llama Nom







            You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a blank email to .
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          • Сергей Черныш
            Hello I would like to draw your attention to limestone slab with runic inscription (http://mogilnik.narod.ru/Stella.htm). It was found by South-Bosporian
            Message 5 of 18 , Feb 27, 2005
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              Hello
              I would like to draw your attention to limestone slab with runic inscription (http://mogilnik.narod.ru/Stella.htm). It was found by South-Bosporian expedition of the Crimean branch of Institute of archeology National Academy of Science of Ukraine on mountain Opuk in Kerch region (look at the map). Here ancient authors mentioned the city of Kimmerik. In 4 AD on mountain the citadel has been constructed when Uzunlar wall becomes a border between Chersonese and Bosporus. The Citadel survived up to 6 century AD.
              The size of a plate 0,62 х 0,49 х 0,20 m. Height of signs of 0,15 m, relief depth - 0,005-0,009 m (cut out was a background, so cross and signs are elevated).
              Publicators interpreted inscription as a herulic and descended from local pagan sanctuary ( VK Golenko, VJ Yurochkin, OA Sin'ko, AV Djanov - Runicheskij kamen' s gory Opuk i nekotoryje problemy istorii severoprichernomorskich germanzev ( Runic stone from Opuk mountain and some questions of history of germans on North coast of Black sea ) . In: Drevnosti Bospora 2. (Antiquities of Bospor)
              Their interpretation is disputable enough. Some of specialists considered authenticity of this find as doubtful.
              It would be interesting to know your opinion.
            • Troels Brandt
              ... inscription (http://mogilnik.narod.ru/Stella.htm). It was found by South-Bosporian expedition of the Crimean branch of Institute of archeology National
              Message 6 of 18 , Mar 7, 2005
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                --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, óÅÒÇÅÊ þÅÒÎÙÛ <authari@m...> wrote:
                >
                >
                > Hello
                > I would like to draw your attention to limestone slab with runic
                inscription (http://mogilnik.narod.ru/Stella.htm). It was found by
                South-Bosporian expedition of the Crimean branch of Institute of
                archeology National Academy of Science of Ukraine on mountain Opuk in
                Kerch region (look at the map). Here ancient authors mentioned the
                city of Kimmerik. In 4 AD on mountain the citadel has been
                constructed when Uzunlar wall becomes a border between Chersonese and
                Bosporus. The Citadel survived up to 6 century AD.
                > The size of a plate 0,62 È 0,49 È 0,20 m. Height of signs of 0,15
                m, relief depth - 0,005-0,009 m (cut out was a background, so cross
                and signs are elevated).
                > Publicators interpreted inscription as a herulic and descended from
                local pagan sanctuary ( VK Golenko, VJ Yurochkin, OA Sin'ko, AV
                Djanov - Runicheskij kamen' s gory Opuk i nekotoryje problemy
                istorii severoprichernomorskich germanzev ( Runic stone from Opuk
                mountain and some questions of history of germans on North coast of
                Black sea ) . In: Drevnosti Bospora 2. (Antiquities of Bospor)
                > Their interpretation is disputable enough. Some of specialists
                considered authenticity of this find as doubtful.
                > It would be interesting to know your opinion.



                I guess you among other possibilities are searching for Scandinavian
                traces as you mentioned the Heruls.

                I am not the right to answer and llama has answered the linquistc
                part. I can only add the theoretical possibility that the runes
                represented their symbolic Norse names: Thurs (troll), Pertra (maybe
                stone), Reid (riding) and As (Ansuz, god), but I doubt - especiallly
                as the T is reverse, which might indicate a forgery or missing
                knowledge of runes. A relief was an unusal way to carve runes - and
                most of the early runes were not carved in stone at all, but I think
                that depends of local practice.

                The Scandinavian wheel crosses normally belonged to the Bronce Ages
                and were at the later bracteats normally replaced by the swastica,
                but a wheel cross was placed at one of the boats from the Baltic Sea
                found in Nydam - contemporary with the dating of your stone if 4 AD
                is the 4th century.

                Primarily I am interested to hear why this stone is combined with the
                Heruls - except for the runes of course. Is there any specific reason
                for that?

                Troels
              • llama_nom
                ... Far from it: I haven´t answered anything, only suggested some more questions! I just tried to give a summary of what sort of inscriptions have been found
                Message 7 of 18 , Mar 7, 2005
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                  --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "Troels Brandt" <trbrandt@p...>
                  wrote:

                  > I am not the right to answer and llama has answered the linquistc
                  > part.


                  Far from it: I haven´t answered anything, only suggested some more
                  questions! I just tried to give a summary of what sort of
                  inscriptions have been found so far that are attributed to East
                  Germanic peoples such as the Goths and Heruls. Anything else is
                  pure speculation on my part.

                  Troels mentions the idea of runes used as ideographs, standing for
                  the concept represented by the name of the rune
                  (called "Begriffsrunen" in German, "begrepsruner" in Norwegian,
                  which term is sometimes translated "concept runes" in English).
                  That´s something I hadn´t thought of, but an interesting possibility
                  to consider. The technique is probably used in some Scandinavian
                  inscriptions predating the Viking Age (e.g. Stentoften & Gummarp),
                  and it is attested somewhat later in Anglo-Saxon manuscripts, but
                  there are many inscriptions where the use of concept runes is
                  disputed, or impossible to prove. There is one widely accepted
                  example of a concept rune in an inscription considered to be Gothic:
                  the Pietroassa ring, found in Romania. Here, as at Stentoften, the
                  ideograph as part of a text which otherwise is spelt out in full--
                  rather than a series of initials.

                  Here is a quote from JH Looijenga's book "Runes Around the North
                  Sea...", she is talking about finds from before the Viking period:

                  "Personally I have difficulties determining when and if an
                  ideographic rune (or Begriffsrune) was used, since the runewriters'
                  criteria for using them are unknown to us. There is at least
                  one clear instance of the use of an ideographic rune: the single j
                  rune on the Stentoften stone, representing its name *jara
                  meaning `good year' = harvest. The peculiar use of this ideograph
                  is further emphasized by the fact that it was carved in an archaic
                  fashion. The h in Thorsberg aisgzh may or may not be such a
                  Begriffsrune, there is no graphic peculiarity (h has no
                  archaic forerunner), but, in Antonsen's interpretation, it could
                  symbolize its name on syntactic grounds. In some other cases,
                  isolated runes may be read as abbreviations, such as the r in the
                  Sievern bracteate, which apparently denotes r[unoz]. Single runes
                  may have been read as abbreviations in the oldest inscriptions, and
                  may later on have come to represent the symbolic meaning of the
                  rune's name."

                  http://www.ub.rug.nl/eldoc/dis/arts/j.h.looijenga/


                  Needless to say, with a whole series of abbreviations, it would be
                  very hard to narrow down the possible interpretations. If they
                  stood for the concepts embodied in the rune names, it's easy to
                  think up symbolic interpretations, but hard if not impossible to
                  test them.

                  Llama Nom
                • Troels Brandt
                  I agree in your comments below. It was the connection Kerch - Goths - Romenia - Pietroassa - Reicherts J -rune (discussed as at Stentoften) which made me
                  Message 8 of 18 , Mar 8, 2005
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                    I agree in your comments below. It was the connection Kerch - Goths -
                    Romenia - Pietroassa - Reicherts "J"-rune (discussed as at
                    Stentoften) which made me suggest this theoretical possibility.

                    Troels

                    --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <600cell@o...> wrote:
                    >
                    > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "Troels Brandt" <trbrandt@p...>
                    > wrote:
                    >
                    > > I am not the right to answer and llama has answered the linquistc
                    > > part.
                    >
                    >
                    > Far from it: I haven´t answered anything, only suggested some more
                    > questions! I just tried to give a summary of what sort of
                    > inscriptions have been found so far that are attributed to East
                    > Germanic peoples such as the Goths and Heruls. Anything else is
                    > pure speculation on my part.
                    >
                    > Troels mentions the idea of runes used as ideographs, standing for
                    > the concept represented by the name of the rune
                    > (called "Begriffsrunen" in German, "begrepsruner" in Norwegian,
                    > which term is sometimes translated "concept runes" in English).
                    > That´s something I hadn´t thought of, but an interesting
                    possibility
                    > to consider. The technique is probably used in some Scandinavian
                    > inscriptions predating the Viking Age (e.g. Stentoften & Gummarp),
                    > and it is attested somewhat later in Anglo-Saxon manuscripts, but
                    > there are many inscriptions where the use of concept runes is
                    > disputed, or impossible to prove. There is one widely accepted
                    > example of a concept rune in an inscription considered to be
                    Gothic:
                    > the Pietroassa ring, found in Romania. Here, as at Stentoften, the
                    > ideograph as part of a text which otherwise is spelt out in full--
                    > rather than a series of initials.
                    >
                    > Here is a quote from JH Looijenga's book "Runes Around the North
                    > Sea...", she is talking about finds from before the Viking period:
                    >
                    > "Personally I have difficulties determining when and if an
                    > ideographic rune (or Begriffsrune) was used, since the runewriters'
                    > criteria for using them are unknown to us. There is at least
                    > one clear instance of the use of an ideographic rune: the single j
                    > rune on the Stentoften stone, representing its name *jara
                    > meaning `good year' = harvest. The peculiar use of this ideograph
                    > is further emphasized by the fact that it was carved in an archaic
                    > fashion. The h in Thorsberg aisgzh may or may not be such a
                    > Begriffsrune, there is no graphic peculiarity (h has no
                    > archaic forerunner), but, in Antonsen's interpretation, it could
                    > symbolize its name on syntactic grounds. In some other cases,
                    > isolated runes may be read as abbreviations, such as the r in the
                    > Sievern bracteate, which apparently denotes r[unoz]. Single runes
                    > may have been read as abbreviations in the oldest inscriptions, and
                    > may later on have come to represent the symbolic meaning of the
                    > rune's name."
                    >
                    > http://www.ub.rug.nl/eldoc/dis/arts/j.h.looijenga/
                    >
                    >
                    > Needless to say, with a whole series of abbreviations, it would be
                    > very hard to narrow down the possible interpretations. If they
                    > stood for the concepts embodied in the rune names, it's easy to
                    > think up symbolic interpretations, but hard if not impossible to
                    > test them.
                    >
                    > Llama Nom
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