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Re: kusanata (Jordanes in Gothic)

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  • llama_nom
    ... German ... Hi Dirk, Maybe, but I gather Latin writers usually render Gothic in personal names as or , or sometimes (Dagalaiphus, Gaina,
    Message 1 of 18 , Feb 24, 2005
      --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "faltin2001" <dirk@s...> wrote:

      > However, I thought that Jordanes' Oium is linked with modern
      German
      > Heim, i.e. home.


      Hi Dirk,

      Maybe, but I gather Latin writers usually render Gothic <ai> in
      personal names as <ai> or <ei>, or sometimes <e> (Dagalaiphus,
      Gaina, Radagaisus, Vajasindus; Gisaleicus; Gesila, Gesimundus;
      also 'eils' in De Conviviis Barbaris).

      But <auj> tends to appear as <oi> in Latin, e.g. names beginning
      Froi-, Froj- = Go. Frauj-.

      Examples from Braune/Helm "Gotische Grammatik", and Koebler's Anhang
      3 Wörterbuch der gotischen Namen:

      http://www.koeblergerhard.de/gotwbhin.html

      Llama Nom
    • Manie Lombard
      Hails But does not auja mean luck ? Manie ... From: llama_nom To: Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2005
      Message 2 of 18 , Feb 24, 2005
        Hails

        But does not auja mean "luck"?

        Manie

        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "llama_nom" <600cell@...>
        To: <gothic-l@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2005 7:25 PM
        Subject: [gothic-l] Re: kusanata (Jordanes in Gothic)


        >
        >
        >
        > Hi Vladimir,
        >
        > That's interesting. The nominative singular of Gothic *aujom
        > (dat.pl.) would be *auja (feminine jo-stem). The actualy form in
        > Jordanes is Oium/Ojum. Germanic cognates include:
        >
        > OIc. ey
        > OFris. ey
        > Langobardic *auja
        > OE ieg (survives in MnE island, with spelling influenced by the
        > unrelated French isle)
        >
        > Under island the Oxford English dictionary comments: "1. a. A piece
        > of land completely surrounded by water. Formerly used less
        > definitely, including a peninsula, or a place insulated at high
        > water or during floods, or begirt by marshes, a usage which survives
        > in particular instances..." (e.g. certain place names.)
        >
        > (And related, German Au(e) < OHG ouwa.)
        >
        > I'm completely ignorant of the history of Finnish, so I don't know
        > if changes in Finnish alone can account for the form given, but in
        > Germanic this word would be *aujo > Proto Norse *auju.
        >
        > Llama Nom
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "?????? ????????" <vegorov@i...>
        > wrote:
        >> *****
        >>
        >> Hi Llama Nom!
        >>
        >> If <Aujom> is treated as the dative, what could be the nominative?
        >> Accordingly, may be considered, in your opinion,
        >> Finnish <oja> "ditch, drain" as a possible origin
        >> of this mysterious toponym?
        >>
        >> Vladimir
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >> -----Original Message-----
        >> From: llama_nom [mailto:600cell@o...]
        >> Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 7:48 PM
        >> To: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com
        >> Subject: [gothic-l] Re: kusanata (Jordanes in Gothic)
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >> ...
        >> "ana Aujom" I treated it like names where the preposition and
        > dative
        >> are conventionally fixed as part of the name, as sometimes happens
        >> in OE and ON, since the Latin form seems to have taken over the
        >> dative ending from Gothic.
        >> ...
        >>
        >> Llama Nom
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >> You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a
        > blank email to <gothic-l-unsubscribe@egroups.com>.
        >> Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a blank email
        > to <gothic-l-unsubscribe@egroups.com>.
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
      • llama_nom
        Hails Manie, First, a correction to something I wrote: The word meaning water meadow, land liable to flooding, island, etc. , jo-stem, feminine, would
        Message 3 of 18 , Feb 24, 2005
          Hails Manie,

          First, a correction to something I wrote: The word meaning "water
          meadow, land liable to flooding, island, etc.", jo-stem, feminine,
          would actually give Gothic *AWI in the nominative singular, declined
          like 'mawi' (acc.sg. *auja, etc.).

          I think the word meaning "luck" is cited in the form AUJA by Koebler
          because one of the early Scandinavian runic inscriptions which
          contains it has been considered East Germanic. But the grounds for
          such attributions I gather is often quite tenuous.

          The regular Gothic form corresponding to Proto Norse AUJA would be
          *AWI as well, neuter ja-stem, declined like 'hawi'.

          Llama Nom



          --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "Manie Lombard" <manielombard@c...>
          wrote:
          > Hails
          >
          > But does not auja mean "luck"?
          >
          > Manie
          >
          > ----- Original Message -----
          > From: "llama_nom" <600cell@o...>
          > To: <gothic-l@yahoogroups.com>
          > Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2005 7:25 PM
          > Subject: [gothic-l] Re: kusanata (Jordanes in Gothic)
          >
          >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > Hi Vladimir,
          > >
          > > That's interesting. The nominative singular of Gothic *aujom
          > > (dat.pl.) would be *auja (feminine jo-stem). The actualy form in
          > > Jordanes is Oium/Ojum. Germanic cognates include:
          > >
          > > OIc. ey
          > > OFris. ey
          > > Langobardic *auja
          > > OE ieg (survives in MnE island, with spelling influenced by the
          > > unrelated French isle)
          > >
          > > Under island the Oxford English dictionary comments: "1. a. A
          piece
          > > of land completely surrounded by water. Formerly used less
          > > definitely, including a peninsula, or a place insulated at high
          > > water or during floods, or begirt by marshes, a usage which
          survives
          > > in particular instances..." (e.g. certain place names.)
          > >
          > > (And related, German Au(e) < OHG ouwa.)
          > >
          > > I'm completely ignorant of the history of Finnish, so I don't
          know
          > > if changes in Finnish alone can account for the form given, but
          in
          > > Germanic this word would be *aujo > Proto Norse *auju.
          > >
          > > Llama Nom
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "?????? ????????" <vegorov@i...>
          > > wrote:
          > >> *****
          > >>
          > >> Hi Llama Nom!
          > >>
          > >> If <Aujom> is treated as the dative, what could be the
          nominative?
          > >> Accordingly, may be considered, in your opinion,
          > >> Finnish <oja> "ditch, drain" as a possible origin
          > >> of this mysterious toponym?
          > >>
          > >> Vladimir
          > >>
          > >>
          > >>
          > >>
          > >>
          > >>
          > >> -----Original Message-----
          > >> From: llama_nom [mailto:600cell@o...]
          > >> Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 7:48 PM
          > >> To: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com
          > >> Subject: [gothic-l] Re: kusanata (Jordanes in Gothic)
          > >>
          > >>
          > >>
          > >>
          > >> ...
          > >> "ana Aujom" I treated it like names where the preposition and
          > > dative
          > >> are conventionally fixed as part of the name, as sometimes
          happens
          > >> in OE and ON, since the Latin form seems to have taken over the
          > >> dative ending from Gothic.
          > >> ...
          > >>
          > >> Llama Nom
          > >>
          > >>
          > >>
          > >>
          > >>
          > >>
          > >> You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a
          > > blank email to <gothic-l-unsubscribe@egroups.com>.
          > >> Yahoo! Groups Links
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a
          blank email
          > > to <gothic-l-unsubscribe@egroups.com>.
          > > Yahoo! Groups Links
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
        • llama_nom
          In which case: Go. *Skadinawi = OE scedenig = OIc. Skáney = Skaane, if this contains the island word, in its broader sense of land only partly surrounded by
          Message 4 of 18 , Feb 25, 2005
            In which case: Go. *Skadinawi = OE scedenig = OIc. Skáney = Skaane,
            if this contains the "island" word, in its broader sense of land
            only partly surrounded by water.

            LN



            --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <600cell@o...> wrote:
            >
            >
            > Hails Manie,
            >
            > First, a correction to something I wrote: The word meaning "water
            > meadow, land liable to flooding, island, etc.", jo-stem, feminine,
            > would actually give Gothic *AWI in the nominative singular,
            declined
            > like 'mawi' (acc.sg. *auja, etc.).
            >
            > I think the word meaning "luck" is cited in the form AUJA by
            Koebler
            > because one of the early Scandinavian runic inscriptions which
            > contains it has been considered East Germanic. But the grounds
            for
            > such attributions I gather is often quite tenuous.
            >
            > The regular Gothic form corresponding to Proto Norse AUJA would be
            > *AWI as well, neuter ja-stem, declined like 'hawi'.
            >
            > Llama Nom
          • faltin2001
            ... Anhang ... Hi Llama Nom, that is interesting. I only cited the supposed link with m.Germ. Heim, because it is mentioned in H. Wolfram s book (I think).
            Message 5 of 18 , Feb 25, 2005
              --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <600cell@o...> wrote:
              >
              > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "faltin2001" <dirk@s...> wrote:
              >
              > > However, I thought that Jordanes' Oium is linked with modern
              > German
              > > Heim, i.e. home.
              >
              >
              > Hi Dirk,
              >
              > Maybe, but I gather Latin writers usually render Gothic <ai> in
              > personal names as <ai> or <ei>, or sometimes <e> (Dagalaiphus,
              > Gaina, Radagaisus, Vajasindus; Gisaleicus; Gesila, Gesimundus;
              > also 'eils' in De Conviviis Barbaris).
              >
              > But <auj> tends to appear as <oi> in Latin, e.g. names beginning
              > Froi-, Froj- = Go. Frauj-.
              >
              > Examples from Braune/Helm "Gotische Grammatik", and Koebler's
              Anhang
              > 3 Wörterbuch der gotischen Namen:
              >
              > http://www.koeblergerhard.de/gotwbhin.html
              >
              > Llama Nom



              Hi Llama Nom,

              that is interesting. I only cited the supposed link with m.Germ.
              Heim, because it is mentioned in H. Wolfram's book (I think).

              Cheers
              Dirk
            • OSCAR HERRERA
              what is goth for then or than....the dictionary says thau,i think ,however im not sure....hwa ist gutiska faur then aithau than...tho boko qaths thau,ik
              Message 6 of 18 , Feb 25, 2005
                what is goth for then or than....the dictionary says thau,i think ,however im not sure....hwa ist gutiska faur then aithau than...tho boko qaths thau,ik thigk,auk ik im ni hails....oscar herrera

                llama_nom <600cell@...> wrote:


                In which case: Go. *Skadinawi = OE scedenig = OIc. Sk�ney = Skaane,
                if this contains the "island" word, in its broader sense of land
                only partly surrounded by water.

                LN



                --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <600cell@o...> wrote:
                >
                >
                > Hails Manie,
                >
                > First, a correction to something I wrote: The word meaning "water
                > meadow, land liable to flooding, island, etc.", jo-stem, feminine,
                > would actually give Gothic *AWI in the nominative singular,
                declined
                > like 'mawi' (acc.sg. *auja, etc.).
                >
                > I think the word meaning "luck" is cited in the form AUJA by
                Koebler
                > because one of the early Scandinavian runic inscriptions which
                > contains it has been considered East Germanic. But the grounds
                for
                > such attributions I gather is often quite tenuous.
                >
                > The regular Gothic form corresponding to Proto Norse AUJA would be
                > *AWI as well, neuter ja-stem, declined like 'hawi'.
                >
                > Llama Nom







                You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a blank email to .
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                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Сергей Черныш
                Hello I would like to draw your attention to limestone slab with runic inscription (http://mogilnik.narod.ru/Stella.htm). It was found by South-Bosporian
                Message 7 of 18 , Feb 27, 2005
                  Hello
                  I would like to draw your attention to limestone slab with runic inscription (http://mogilnik.narod.ru/Stella.htm). It was found by South-Bosporian expedition of the Crimean branch of Institute of archeology National Academy of Science of Ukraine on mountain Opuk in Kerch region (look at the map). Here ancient authors mentioned the city of Kimmerik. In 4 AD on mountain the citadel has been constructed when Uzunlar wall becomes a border between Chersonese and Bosporus. The Citadel survived up to 6 century AD.
                  The size of a plate 0,62 х 0,49 х 0,20 m. Height of signs of 0,15 m, relief depth - 0,005-0,009 m (cut out was a background, so cross and signs are elevated).
                  Publicators interpreted inscription as a herulic and descended from local pagan sanctuary ( VK Golenko, VJ Yurochkin, OA Sin'ko, AV Djanov - Runicheskij kamen' s gory Opuk i nekotoryje problemy istorii severoprichernomorskich germanzev ( Runic stone from Opuk mountain and some questions of history of germans on North coast of Black sea ) . In: Drevnosti Bospora 2. (Antiquities of Bospor)
                  Their interpretation is disputable enough. Some of specialists considered authenticity of this find as doubtful.
                  It would be interesting to know your opinion.
                • Troels Brandt
                  ... inscription (http://mogilnik.narod.ru/Stella.htm). It was found by South-Bosporian expedition of the Crimean branch of Institute of archeology National
                  Message 8 of 18 , Mar 7, 2005
                    --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, óÅÒÇÅÊ þÅÒÎÙÛ <authari@m...> wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    > Hello
                    > I would like to draw your attention to limestone slab with runic
                    inscription (http://mogilnik.narod.ru/Stella.htm). It was found by
                    South-Bosporian expedition of the Crimean branch of Institute of
                    archeology National Academy of Science of Ukraine on mountain Opuk in
                    Kerch region (look at the map). Here ancient authors mentioned the
                    city of Kimmerik. In 4 AD on mountain the citadel has been
                    constructed when Uzunlar wall becomes a border between Chersonese and
                    Bosporus. The Citadel survived up to 6 century AD.
                    > The size of a plate 0,62 È 0,49 È 0,20 m. Height of signs of 0,15
                    m, relief depth - 0,005-0,009 m (cut out was a background, so cross
                    and signs are elevated).
                    > Publicators interpreted inscription as a herulic and descended from
                    local pagan sanctuary ( VK Golenko, VJ Yurochkin, OA Sin'ko, AV
                    Djanov - Runicheskij kamen' s gory Opuk i nekotoryje problemy
                    istorii severoprichernomorskich germanzev ( Runic stone from Opuk
                    mountain and some questions of history of germans on North coast of
                    Black sea ) . In: Drevnosti Bospora 2. (Antiquities of Bospor)
                    > Their interpretation is disputable enough. Some of specialists
                    considered authenticity of this find as doubtful.
                    > It would be interesting to know your opinion.



                    I guess you among other possibilities are searching for Scandinavian
                    traces as you mentioned the Heruls.

                    I am not the right to answer and llama has answered the linquistc
                    part. I can only add the theoretical possibility that the runes
                    represented their symbolic Norse names: Thurs (troll), Pertra (maybe
                    stone), Reid (riding) and As (Ansuz, god), but I doubt - especiallly
                    as the T is reverse, which might indicate a forgery or missing
                    knowledge of runes. A relief was an unusal way to carve runes - and
                    most of the early runes were not carved in stone at all, but I think
                    that depends of local practice.

                    The Scandinavian wheel crosses normally belonged to the Bronce Ages
                    and were at the later bracteats normally replaced by the swastica,
                    but a wheel cross was placed at one of the boats from the Baltic Sea
                    found in Nydam - contemporary with the dating of your stone if 4 AD
                    is the 4th century.

                    Primarily I am interested to hear why this stone is combined with the
                    Heruls - except for the runes of course. Is there any specific reason
                    for that?

                    Troels
                  • llama_nom
                    ... Far from it: I haven´t answered anything, only suggested some more questions! I just tried to give a summary of what sort of inscriptions have been found
                    Message 9 of 18 , Mar 7, 2005
                      --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "Troels Brandt" <trbrandt@p...>
                      wrote:

                      > I am not the right to answer and llama has answered the linquistc
                      > part.


                      Far from it: I haven´t answered anything, only suggested some more
                      questions! I just tried to give a summary of what sort of
                      inscriptions have been found so far that are attributed to East
                      Germanic peoples such as the Goths and Heruls. Anything else is
                      pure speculation on my part.

                      Troels mentions the idea of runes used as ideographs, standing for
                      the concept represented by the name of the rune
                      (called "Begriffsrunen" in German, "begrepsruner" in Norwegian,
                      which term is sometimes translated "concept runes" in English).
                      That´s something I hadn´t thought of, but an interesting possibility
                      to consider. The technique is probably used in some Scandinavian
                      inscriptions predating the Viking Age (e.g. Stentoften & Gummarp),
                      and it is attested somewhat later in Anglo-Saxon manuscripts, but
                      there are many inscriptions where the use of concept runes is
                      disputed, or impossible to prove. There is one widely accepted
                      example of a concept rune in an inscription considered to be Gothic:
                      the Pietroassa ring, found in Romania. Here, as at Stentoften, the
                      ideograph as part of a text which otherwise is spelt out in full--
                      rather than a series of initials.

                      Here is a quote from JH Looijenga's book "Runes Around the North
                      Sea...", she is talking about finds from before the Viking period:

                      "Personally I have difficulties determining when and if an
                      ideographic rune (or Begriffsrune) was used, since the runewriters'
                      criteria for using them are unknown to us. There is at least
                      one clear instance of the use of an ideographic rune: the single j
                      rune on the Stentoften stone, representing its name *jara
                      meaning `good year' = harvest. The peculiar use of this ideograph
                      is further emphasized by the fact that it was carved in an archaic
                      fashion. The h in Thorsberg aisgzh may or may not be such a
                      Begriffsrune, there is no graphic peculiarity (h has no
                      archaic forerunner), but, in Antonsen's interpretation, it could
                      symbolize its name on syntactic grounds. In some other cases,
                      isolated runes may be read as abbreviations, such as the r in the
                      Sievern bracteate, which apparently denotes r[unoz]. Single runes
                      may have been read as abbreviations in the oldest inscriptions, and
                      may later on have come to represent the symbolic meaning of the
                      rune's name."

                      http://www.ub.rug.nl/eldoc/dis/arts/j.h.looijenga/


                      Needless to say, with a whole series of abbreviations, it would be
                      very hard to narrow down the possible interpretations. If they
                      stood for the concepts embodied in the rune names, it's easy to
                      think up symbolic interpretations, but hard if not impossible to
                      test them.

                      Llama Nom
                    • Troels Brandt
                      I agree in your comments below. It was the connection Kerch - Goths - Romenia - Pietroassa - Reicherts J -rune (discussed as at Stentoften) which made me
                      Message 10 of 18 , Mar 8, 2005
                        I agree in your comments below. It was the connection Kerch - Goths -
                        Romenia - Pietroassa - Reicherts "J"-rune (discussed as at
                        Stentoften) which made me suggest this theoretical possibility.

                        Troels

                        --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <600cell@o...> wrote:
                        >
                        > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "Troels Brandt" <trbrandt@p...>
                        > wrote:
                        >
                        > > I am not the right to answer and llama has answered the linquistc
                        > > part.
                        >
                        >
                        > Far from it: I haven´t answered anything, only suggested some more
                        > questions! I just tried to give a summary of what sort of
                        > inscriptions have been found so far that are attributed to East
                        > Germanic peoples such as the Goths and Heruls. Anything else is
                        > pure speculation on my part.
                        >
                        > Troels mentions the idea of runes used as ideographs, standing for
                        > the concept represented by the name of the rune
                        > (called "Begriffsrunen" in German, "begrepsruner" in Norwegian,
                        > which term is sometimes translated "concept runes" in English).
                        > That´s something I hadn´t thought of, but an interesting
                        possibility
                        > to consider. The technique is probably used in some Scandinavian
                        > inscriptions predating the Viking Age (e.g. Stentoften & Gummarp),
                        > and it is attested somewhat later in Anglo-Saxon manuscripts, but
                        > there are many inscriptions where the use of concept runes is
                        > disputed, or impossible to prove. There is one widely accepted
                        > example of a concept rune in an inscription considered to be
                        Gothic:
                        > the Pietroassa ring, found in Romania. Here, as at Stentoften, the
                        > ideograph as part of a text which otherwise is spelt out in full--
                        > rather than a series of initials.
                        >
                        > Here is a quote from JH Looijenga's book "Runes Around the North
                        > Sea...", she is talking about finds from before the Viking period:
                        >
                        > "Personally I have difficulties determining when and if an
                        > ideographic rune (or Begriffsrune) was used, since the runewriters'
                        > criteria for using them are unknown to us. There is at least
                        > one clear instance of the use of an ideographic rune: the single j
                        > rune on the Stentoften stone, representing its name *jara
                        > meaning `good year' = harvest. The peculiar use of this ideograph
                        > is further emphasized by the fact that it was carved in an archaic
                        > fashion. The h in Thorsberg aisgzh may or may not be such a
                        > Begriffsrune, there is no graphic peculiarity (h has no
                        > archaic forerunner), but, in Antonsen's interpretation, it could
                        > symbolize its name on syntactic grounds. In some other cases,
                        > isolated runes may be read as abbreviations, such as the r in the
                        > Sievern bracteate, which apparently denotes r[unoz]. Single runes
                        > may have been read as abbreviations in the oldest inscriptions, and
                        > may later on have come to represent the symbolic meaning of the
                        > rune's name."
                        >
                        > http://www.ub.rug.nl/eldoc/dis/arts/j.h.looijenga/
                        >
                        >
                        > Needless to say, with a whole series of abbreviations, it would be
                        > very hard to narrow down the possible interpretations. If they
                        > stood for the concepts embodied in the rune names, it's easy to
                        > think up symbolic interpretations, but hard if not impossible to
                        > test them.
                        >
                        > Llama Nom
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