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Re: kusanata (Jordanes in Gothic)

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  • faltin2001
    ... See also modern German Eiland = Insel = island. However, I thought that Jordanes Oium is linked with modern German Heim, i.e. home. Cheers Dirk
    Message 1 of 18 , Feb 24, 2005
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      --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <600cell@o...> wrote:
      >
      >
      > Hi Vladimir,
      >
      > That's interesting. The nominative singular of Gothic *aujom
      > (dat.pl.) would be *auja (feminine jo-stem). The actualy form in
      > Jordanes is Oium/Ojum. Germanic cognates include:
      >
      > OIc. ey
      > OFris. ey
      > Langobardic *auja
      > OE ieg (survives in MnE island, with spelling influenced by the
      > unrelated French isle)




      See also modern German Eiland = Insel = island.

      However, I thought that Jordanes' Oium is linked with modern German
      Heim, i.e. home.


      Cheers
      Dirk
    • llama_nom
      ... German ... Hi Dirk, Maybe, but I gather Latin writers usually render Gothic in personal names as or , or sometimes (Dagalaiphus, Gaina,
      Message 2 of 18 , Feb 24, 2005
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        --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "faltin2001" <dirk@s...> wrote:

        > However, I thought that Jordanes' Oium is linked with modern
        German
        > Heim, i.e. home.


        Hi Dirk,

        Maybe, but I gather Latin writers usually render Gothic <ai> in
        personal names as <ai> or <ei>, or sometimes <e> (Dagalaiphus,
        Gaina, Radagaisus, Vajasindus; Gisaleicus; Gesila, Gesimundus;
        also 'eils' in De Conviviis Barbaris).

        But <auj> tends to appear as <oi> in Latin, e.g. names beginning
        Froi-, Froj- = Go. Frauj-.

        Examples from Braune/Helm "Gotische Grammatik", and Koebler's Anhang
        3 Wörterbuch der gotischen Namen:

        http://www.koeblergerhard.de/gotwbhin.html

        Llama Nom
      • Manie Lombard
        Hails But does not auja mean luck ? Manie ... From: llama_nom To: Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2005
        Message 3 of 18 , Feb 24, 2005
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          Hails

          But does not auja mean "luck"?

          Manie

          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "llama_nom" <600cell@...>
          To: <gothic-l@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2005 7:25 PM
          Subject: [gothic-l] Re: kusanata (Jordanes in Gothic)


          >
          >
          >
          > Hi Vladimir,
          >
          > That's interesting. The nominative singular of Gothic *aujom
          > (dat.pl.) would be *auja (feminine jo-stem). The actualy form in
          > Jordanes is Oium/Ojum. Germanic cognates include:
          >
          > OIc. ey
          > OFris. ey
          > Langobardic *auja
          > OE ieg (survives in MnE island, with spelling influenced by the
          > unrelated French isle)
          >
          > Under island the Oxford English dictionary comments: "1. a. A piece
          > of land completely surrounded by water. Formerly used less
          > definitely, including a peninsula, or a place insulated at high
          > water or during floods, or begirt by marshes, a usage which survives
          > in particular instances..." (e.g. certain place names.)
          >
          > (And related, German Au(e) < OHG ouwa.)
          >
          > I'm completely ignorant of the history of Finnish, so I don't know
          > if changes in Finnish alone can account for the form given, but in
          > Germanic this word would be *aujo > Proto Norse *auju.
          >
          > Llama Nom
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "?????? ????????" <vegorov@i...>
          > wrote:
          >> *****
          >>
          >> Hi Llama Nom!
          >>
          >> If <Aujom> is treated as the dative, what could be the nominative?
          >> Accordingly, may be considered, in your opinion,
          >> Finnish <oja> "ditch, drain" as a possible origin
          >> of this mysterious toponym?
          >>
          >> Vladimir
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >> -----Original Message-----
          >> From: llama_nom [mailto:600cell@o...]
          >> Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 7:48 PM
          >> To: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com
          >> Subject: [gothic-l] Re: kusanata (Jordanes in Gothic)
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >> ...
          >> "ana Aujom" I treated it like names where the preposition and
          > dative
          >> are conventionally fixed as part of the name, as sometimes happens
          >> in OE and ON, since the Latin form seems to have taken over the
          >> dative ending from Gothic.
          >> ...
          >>
          >> Llama Nom
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >> You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a
          > blank email to <gothic-l-unsubscribe@egroups.com>.
          >> Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a blank email
          > to <gothic-l-unsubscribe@egroups.com>.
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
        • llama_nom
          Hails Manie, First, a correction to something I wrote: The word meaning water meadow, land liable to flooding, island, etc. , jo-stem, feminine, would
          Message 4 of 18 , Feb 24, 2005
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            Hails Manie,

            First, a correction to something I wrote: The word meaning "water
            meadow, land liable to flooding, island, etc.", jo-stem, feminine,
            would actually give Gothic *AWI in the nominative singular, declined
            like 'mawi' (acc.sg. *auja, etc.).

            I think the word meaning "luck" is cited in the form AUJA by Koebler
            because one of the early Scandinavian runic inscriptions which
            contains it has been considered East Germanic. But the grounds for
            such attributions I gather is often quite tenuous.

            The regular Gothic form corresponding to Proto Norse AUJA would be
            *AWI as well, neuter ja-stem, declined like 'hawi'.

            Llama Nom



            --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "Manie Lombard" <manielombard@c...>
            wrote:
            > Hails
            >
            > But does not auja mean "luck"?
            >
            > Manie
            >
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: "llama_nom" <600cell@o...>
            > To: <gothic-l@yahoogroups.com>
            > Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2005 7:25 PM
            > Subject: [gothic-l] Re: kusanata (Jordanes in Gothic)
            >
            >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > Hi Vladimir,
            > >
            > > That's interesting. The nominative singular of Gothic *aujom
            > > (dat.pl.) would be *auja (feminine jo-stem). The actualy form in
            > > Jordanes is Oium/Ojum. Germanic cognates include:
            > >
            > > OIc. ey
            > > OFris. ey
            > > Langobardic *auja
            > > OE ieg (survives in MnE island, with spelling influenced by the
            > > unrelated French isle)
            > >
            > > Under island the Oxford English dictionary comments: "1. a. A
            piece
            > > of land completely surrounded by water. Formerly used less
            > > definitely, including a peninsula, or a place insulated at high
            > > water or during floods, or begirt by marshes, a usage which
            survives
            > > in particular instances..." (e.g. certain place names.)
            > >
            > > (And related, German Au(e) < OHG ouwa.)
            > >
            > > I'm completely ignorant of the history of Finnish, so I don't
            know
            > > if changes in Finnish alone can account for the form given, but
            in
            > > Germanic this word would be *aujo > Proto Norse *auju.
            > >
            > > Llama Nom
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "?????? ????????" <vegorov@i...>
            > > wrote:
            > >> *****
            > >>
            > >> Hi Llama Nom!
            > >>
            > >> If <Aujom> is treated as the dative, what could be the
            nominative?
            > >> Accordingly, may be considered, in your opinion,
            > >> Finnish <oja> "ditch, drain" as a possible origin
            > >> of this mysterious toponym?
            > >>
            > >> Vladimir
            > >>
            > >>
            > >>
            > >>
            > >>
            > >>
            > >> -----Original Message-----
            > >> From: llama_nom [mailto:600cell@o...]
            > >> Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 7:48 PM
            > >> To: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com
            > >> Subject: [gothic-l] Re: kusanata (Jordanes in Gothic)
            > >>
            > >>
            > >>
            > >>
            > >> ...
            > >> "ana Aujom" I treated it like names where the preposition and
            > > dative
            > >> are conventionally fixed as part of the name, as sometimes
            happens
            > >> in OE and ON, since the Latin form seems to have taken over the
            > >> dative ending from Gothic.
            > >> ...
            > >>
            > >> Llama Nom
            > >>
            > >>
            > >>
            > >>
            > >>
            > >>
            > >> You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a
            > > blank email to <gothic-l-unsubscribe@egroups.com>.
            > >> Yahoo! Groups Links
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a
            blank email
            > > to <gothic-l-unsubscribe@egroups.com>.
            > > Yahoo! Groups Links
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
          • llama_nom
            In which case: Go. *Skadinawi = OE scedenig = OIc. Skáney = Skaane, if this contains the island word, in its broader sense of land only partly surrounded by
            Message 5 of 18 , Feb 25, 2005
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              In which case: Go. *Skadinawi = OE scedenig = OIc. Skáney = Skaane,
              if this contains the "island" word, in its broader sense of land
              only partly surrounded by water.

              LN



              --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <600cell@o...> wrote:
              >
              >
              > Hails Manie,
              >
              > First, a correction to something I wrote: The word meaning "water
              > meadow, land liable to flooding, island, etc.", jo-stem, feminine,
              > would actually give Gothic *AWI in the nominative singular,
              declined
              > like 'mawi' (acc.sg. *auja, etc.).
              >
              > I think the word meaning "luck" is cited in the form AUJA by
              Koebler
              > because one of the early Scandinavian runic inscriptions which
              > contains it has been considered East Germanic. But the grounds
              for
              > such attributions I gather is often quite tenuous.
              >
              > The regular Gothic form corresponding to Proto Norse AUJA would be
              > *AWI as well, neuter ja-stem, declined like 'hawi'.
              >
              > Llama Nom
            • faltin2001
              ... Anhang ... Hi Llama Nom, that is interesting. I only cited the supposed link with m.Germ. Heim, because it is mentioned in H. Wolfram s book (I think).
              Message 6 of 18 , Feb 25, 2005
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                --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <600cell@o...> wrote:
                >
                > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "faltin2001" <dirk@s...> wrote:
                >
                > > However, I thought that Jordanes' Oium is linked with modern
                > German
                > > Heim, i.e. home.
                >
                >
                > Hi Dirk,
                >
                > Maybe, but I gather Latin writers usually render Gothic <ai> in
                > personal names as <ai> or <ei>, or sometimes <e> (Dagalaiphus,
                > Gaina, Radagaisus, Vajasindus; Gisaleicus; Gesila, Gesimundus;
                > also 'eils' in De Conviviis Barbaris).
                >
                > But <auj> tends to appear as <oi> in Latin, e.g. names beginning
                > Froi-, Froj- = Go. Frauj-.
                >
                > Examples from Braune/Helm "Gotische Grammatik", and Koebler's
                Anhang
                > 3 Wörterbuch der gotischen Namen:
                >
                > http://www.koeblergerhard.de/gotwbhin.html
                >
                > Llama Nom



                Hi Llama Nom,

                that is interesting. I only cited the supposed link with m.Germ.
                Heim, because it is mentioned in H. Wolfram's book (I think).

                Cheers
                Dirk
              • OSCAR HERRERA
                what is goth for then or than....the dictionary says thau,i think ,however im not sure....hwa ist gutiska faur then aithau than...tho boko qaths thau,ik
                Message 7 of 18 , Feb 25, 2005
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                  what is goth for then or than....the dictionary says thau,i think ,however im not sure....hwa ist gutiska faur then aithau than...tho boko qaths thau,ik thigk,auk ik im ni hails....oscar herrera

                  llama_nom <600cell@...> wrote:


                  In which case: Go. *Skadinawi = OE scedenig = OIc. Sk�ney = Skaane,
                  if this contains the "island" word, in its broader sense of land
                  only partly surrounded by water.

                  LN



                  --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <600cell@o...> wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > Hails Manie,
                  >
                  > First, a correction to something I wrote: The word meaning "water
                  > meadow, land liable to flooding, island, etc.", jo-stem, feminine,
                  > would actually give Gothic *AWI in the nominative singular,
                  declined
                  > like 'mawi' (acc.sg. *auja, etc.).
                  >
                  > I think the word meaning "luck" is cited in the form AUJA by
                  Koebler
                  > because one of the early Scandinavian runic inscriptions which
                  > contains it has been considered East Germanic. But the grounds
                  for
                  > such attributions I gather is often quite tenuous.
                  >
                  > The regular Gothic form corresponding to Proto Norse AUJA would be
                  > *AWI as well, neuter ja-stem, declined like 'hawi'.
                  >
                  > Llama Nom







                  You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a blank email to .
                  Yahoo! Groups Links










                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Сергей Черныш
                  Hello I would like to draw your attention to limestone slab with runic inscription (http://mogilnik.narod.ru/Stella.htm). It was found by South-Bosporian
                  Message 8 of 18 , Feb 27, 2005
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                    Hello
                    I would like to draw your attention to limestone slab with runic inscription (http://mogilnik.narod.ru/Stella.htm). It was found by South-Bosporian expedition of the Crimean branch of Institute of archeology National Academy of Science of Ukraine on mountain Opuk in Kerch region (look at the map). Here ancient authors mentioned the city of Kimmerik. In 4 AD on mountain the citadel has been constructed when Uzunlar wall becomes a border between Chersonese and Bosporus. The Citadel survived up to 6 century AD.
                    The size of a plate 0,62 х 0,49 х 0,20 m. Height of signs of 0,15 m, relief depth - 0,005-0,009 m (cut out was a background, so cross and signs are elevated).
                    Publicators interpreted inscription as a herulic and descended from local pagan sanctuary ( VK Golenko, VJ Yurochkin, OA Sin'ko, AV Djanov - Runicheskij kamen' s gory Opuk i nekotoryje problemy istorii severoprichernomorskich germanzev ( Runic stone from Opuk mountain and some questions of history of germans on North coast of Black sea ) . In: Drevnosti Bospora 2. (Antiquities of Bospor)
                    Their interpretation is disputable enough. Some of specialists considered authenticity of this find as doubtful.
                    It would be interesting to know your opinion.
                  • Troels Brandt
                    ... inscription (http://mogilnik.narod.ru/Stella.htm). It was found by South-Bosporian expedition of the Crimean branch of Institute of archeology National
                    Message 9 of 18 , Mar 7 9:41 AM
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                      --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, óÅÒÇÅÊ þÅÒÎÙÛ <authari@m...> wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      > Hello
                      > I would like to draw your attention to limestone slab with runic
                      inscription (http://mogilnik.narod.ru/Stella.htm). It was found by
                      South-Bosporian expedition of the Crimean branch of Institute of
                      archeology National Academy of Science of Ukraine on mountain Opuk in
                      Kerch region (look at the map). Here ancient authors mentioned the
                      city of Kimmerik. In 4 AD on mountain the citadel has been
                      constructed when Uzunlar wall becomes a border between Chersonese and
                      Bosporus. The Citadel survived up to 6 century AD.
                      > The size of a plate 0,62 È 0,49 È 0,20 m. Height of signs of 0,15
                      m, relief depth - 0,005-0,009 m (cut out was a background, so cross
                      and signs are elevated).
                      > Publicators interpreted inscription as a herulic and descended from
                      local pagan sanctuary ( VK Golenko, VJ Yurochkin, OA Sin'ko, AV
                      Djanov - Runicheskij kamen' s gory Opuk i nekotoryje problemy
                      istorii severoprichernomorskich germanzev ( Runic stone from Opuk
                      mountain and some questions of history of germans on North coast of
                      Black sea ) . In: Drevnosti Bospora 2. (Antiquities of Bospor)
                      > Their interpretation is disputable enough. Some of specialists
                      considered authenticity of this find as doubtful.
                      > It would be interesting to know your opinion.



                      I guess you among other possibilities are searching for Scandinavian
                      traces as you mentioned the Heruls.

                      I am not the right to answer and llama has answered the linquistc
                      part. I can only add the theoretical possibility that the runes
                      represented their symbolic Norse names: Thurs (troll), Pertra (maybe
                      stone), Reid (riding) and As (Ansuz, god), but I doubt - especiallly
                      as the T is reverse, which might indicate a forgery or missing
                      knowledge of runes. A relief was an unusal way to carve runes - and
                      most of the early runes were not carved in stone at all, but I think
                      that depends of local practice.

                      The Scandinavian wheel crosses normally belonged to the Bronce Ages
                      and were at the later bracteats normally replaced by the swastica,
                      but a wheel cross was placed at one of the boats from the Baltic Sea
                      found in Nydam - contemporary with the dating of your stone if 4 AD
                      is the 4th century.

                      Primarily I am interested to hear why this stone is combined with the
                      Heruls - except for the runes of course. Is there any specific reason
                      for that?

                      Troels
                    • llama_nom
                      ... Far from it: I haven´t answered anything, only suggested some more questions! I just tried to give a summary of what sort of inscriptions have been found
                      Message 10 of 18 , Mar 7 7:38 PM
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                        --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "Troels Brandt" <trbrandt@p...>
                        wrote:

                        > I am not the right to answer and llama has answered the linquistc
                        > part.


                        Far from it: I haven´t answered anything, only suggested some more
                        questions! I just tried to give a summary of what sort of
                        inscriptions have been found so far that are attributed to East
                        Germanic peoples such as the Goths and Heruls. Anything else is
                        pure speculation on my part.

                        Troels mentions the idea of runes used as ideographs, standing for
                        the concept represented by the name of the rune
                        (called "Begriffsrunen" in German, "begrepsruner" in Norwegian,
                        which term is sometimes translated "concept runes" in English).
                        That´s something I hadn´t thought of, but an interesting possibility
                        to consider. The technique is probably used in some Scandinavian
                        inscriptions predating the Viking Age (e.g. Stentoften & Gummarp),
                        and it is attested somewhat later in Anglo-Saxon manuscripts, but
                        there are many inscriptions where the use of concept runes is
                        disputed, or impossible to prove. There is one widely accepted
                        example of a concept rune in an inscription considered to be Gothic:
                        the Pietroassa ring, found in Romania. Here, as at Stentoften, the
                        ideograph as part of a text which otherwise is spelt out in full--
                        rather than a series of initials.

                        Here is a quote from JH Looijenga's book "Runes Around the North
                        Sea...", she is talking about finds from before the Viking period:

                        "Personally I have difficulties determining when and if an
                        ideographic rune (or Begriffsrune) was used, since the runewriters'
                        criteria for using them are unknown to us. There is at least
                        one clear instance of the use of an ideographic rune: the single j
                        rune on the Stentoften stone, representing its name *jara
                        meaning `good year' = harvest. The peculiar use of this ideograph
                        is further emphasized by the fact that it was carved in an archaic
                        fashion. The h in Thorsberg aisgzh may or may not be such a
                        Begriffsrune, there is no graphic peculiarity (h has no
                        archaic forerunner), but, in Antonsen's interpretation, it could
                        symbolize its name on syntactic grounds. In some other cases,
                        isolated runes may be read as abbreviations, such as the r in the
                        Sievern bracteate, which apparently denotes r[unoz]. Single runes
                        may have been read as abbreviations in the oldest inscriptions, and
                        may later on have come to represent the symbolic meaning of the
                        rune's name."

                        http://www.ub.rug.nl/eldoc/dis/arts/j.h.looijenga/


                        Needless to say, with a whole series of abbreviations, it would be
                        very hard to narrow down the possible interpretations. If they
                        stood for the concepts embodied in the rune names, it's easy to
                        think up symbolic interpretations, but hard if not impossible to
                        test them.

                        Llama Nom
                      • Troels Brandt
                        I agree in your comments below. It was the connection Kerch - Goths - Romenia - Pietroassa - Reicherts J -rune (discussed as at Stentoften) which made me
                        Message 11 of 18 , Mar 8 5:10 AM
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                          I agree in your comments below. It was the connection Kerch - Goths -
                          Romenia - Pietroassa - Reicherts "J"-rune (discussed as at
                          Stentoften) which made me suggest this theoretical possibility.

                          Troels

                          --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <600cell@o...> wrote:
                          >
                          > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "Troels Brandt" <trbrandt@p...>
                          > wrote:
                          >
                          > > I am not the right to answer and llama has answered the linquistc
                          > > part.
                          >
                          >
                          > Far from it: I haven´t answered anything, only suggested some more
                          > questions! I just tried to give a summary of what sort of
                          > inscriptions have been found so far that are attributed to East
                          > Germanic peoples such as the Goths and Heruls. Anything else is
                          > pure speculation on my part.
                          >
                          > Troels mentions the idea of runes used as ideographs, standing for
                          > the concept represented by the name of the rune
                          > (called "Begriffsrunen" in German, "begrepsruner" in Norwegian,
                          > which term is sometimes translated "concept runes" in English).
                          > That´s something I hadn´t thought of, but an interesting
                          possibility
                          > to consider. The technique is probably used in some Scandinavian
                          > inscriptions predating the Viking Age (e.g. Stentoften & Gummarp),
                          > and it is attested somewhat later in Anglo-Saxon manuscripts, but
                          > there are many inscriptions where the use of concept runes is
                          > disputed, or impossible to prove. There is one widely accepted
                          > example of a concept rune in an inscription considered to be
                          Gothic:
                          > the Pietroassa ring, found in Romania. Here, as at Stentoften, the
                          > ideograph as part of a text which otherwise is spelt out in full--
                          > rather than a series of initials.
                          >
                          > Here is a quote from JH Looijenga's book "Runes Around the North
                          > Sea...", she is talking about finds from before the Viking period:
                          >
                          > "Personally I have difficulties determining when and if an
                          > ideographic rune (or Begriffsrune) was used, since the runewriters'
                          > criteria for using them are unknown to us. There is at least
                          > one clear instance of the use of an ideographic rune: the single j
                          > rune on the Stentoften stone, representing its name *jara
                          > meaning `good year' = harvest. The peculiar use of this ideograph
                          > is further emphasized by the fact that it was carved in an archaic
                          > fashion. The h in Thorsberg aisgzh may or may not be such a
                          > Begriffsrune, there is no graphic peculiarity (h has no
                          > archaic forerunner), but, in Antonsen's interpretation, it could
                          > symbolize its name on syntactic grounds. In some other cases,
                          > isolated runes may be read as abbreviations, such as the r in the
                          > Sievern bracteate, which apparently denotes r[unoz]. Single runes
                          > may have been read as abbreviations in the oldest inscriptions, and
                          > may later on have come to represent the symbolic meaning of the
                          > rune's name."
                          >
                          > http://www.ub.rug.nl/eldoc/dis/arts/j.h.looijenga/
                          >
                          >
                          > Needless to say, with a whole series of abbreviations, it would be
                          > very hard to narrow down the possible interpretations. If they
                          > stood for the concepts embodied in the rune names, it's easy to
                          > think up symbolic interpretations, but hard if not impossible to
                          > test them.
                          >
                          > Llama Nom
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