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RE: [gothic-l] Re: kusanata (Jordanes in Gothic)

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  • ?????? ????????
    ***** Hi Llama Nom! If is treated as the dative, what could be the nominative? Accordingly, may be considered, in your opinion, Finnish ditch,
    Message 1 of 18 , Feb 16, 2005
      *****

      Hi Llama Nom!

      If <Aujom> is treated as the dative, what could be the nominative?
      Accordingly, may be considered, in your opinion,
      Finnish <oja> "ditch, drain" as a possible origin
      of this mysterious toponym?

      Vladimir






      -----Original Message-----
      From: llama_nom [mailto:600cell@...]
      Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 7:48 PM
      To: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [gothic-l] Re: kusanata (Jordanes in Gothic)




      ...
      "ana Aujom" I treated it like names where the preposition and dative
      are conventionally fixed as part of the name, as sometimes happens
      in OE and ON, since the Latin form seems to have taken over the
      dative ending from Gothic.
      ...

      Llama Nom






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    • llama_nom
      Hi Vladimir, That s interesting. The nominative singular of Gothic *aujom (dat.pl.) would be *auja (feminine jo-stem). The actualy form in Jordanes is
      Message 2 of 18 , Feb 17, 2005
        Hi Vladimir,

        That's interesting. The nominative singular of Gothic *aujom
        (dat.pl.) would be *auja (feminine jo-stem). The actualy form in
        Jordanes is Oium/Ojum. Germanic cognates include:

        OIc. ey
        OFris. ey
        Langobardic *auja
        OE ieg (survives in MnE island, with spelling influenced by the
        unrelated French isle)

        Under island the Oxford English dictionary comments: "1. a. A piece
        of land completely surrounded by water. Formerly used less
        definitely, including a peninsula, or a place insulated at high
        water or during floods, or begirt by marshes, a usage which survives
        in particular instances..." (e.g. certain place names.)

        (And related, German Au(e) < OHG ouwa.)

        I'm completely ignorant of the history of Finnish, so I don't know
        if changes in Finnish alone can account for the form given, but in
        Germanic this word would be *aujo > Proto Norse *auju.

        Llama Nom





        --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "?????? ????????" <vegorov@i...>
        wrote:
        > *****
        >
        > Hi Llama Nom!
        >
        > If <Aujom> is treated as the dative, what could be the nominative?
        > Accordingly, may be considered, in your opinion,
        > Finnish <oja> "ditch, drain" as a possible origin
        > of this mysterious toponym?
        >
        > Vladimir
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: llama_nom [mailto:600cell@o...]
        > Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 7:48 PM
        > To: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: [gothic-l] Re: kusanata (Jordanes in Gothic)
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > ...
        > "ana Aujom" I treated it like names where the preposition and
        dative
        > are conventionally fixed as part of the name, as sometimes happens
        > in OE and ON, since the Latin form seems to have taken over the
        > dative ending from Gothic.
        > ...
        >
        > Llama Nom
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a
        blank email to <gothic-l-unsubscribe@egroups.com>.
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
      • faltin2001
        ... See also modern German Eiland = Insel = island. However, I thought that Jordanes Oium is linked with modern German Heim, i.e. home. Cheers Dirk
        Message 3 of 18 , Feb 24, 2005
          --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <600cell@o...> wrote:
          >
          >
          > Hi Vladimir,
          >
          > That's interesting. The nominative singular of Gothic *aujom
          > (dat.pl.) would be *auja (feminine jo-stem). The actualy form in
          > Jordanes is Oium/Ojum. Germanic cognates include:
          >
          > OIc. ey
          > OFris. ey
          > Langobardic *auja
          > OE ieg (survives in MnE island, with spelling influenced by the
          > unrelated French isle)




          See also modern German Eiland = Insel = island.

          However, I thought that Jordanes' Oium is linked with modern German
          Heim, i.e. home.


          Cheers
          Dirk
        • llama_nom
          ... German ... Hi Dirk, Maybe, but I gather Latin writers usually render Gothic in personal names as or , or sometimes (Dagalaiphus, Gaina,
          Message 4 of 18 , Feb 24, 2005
            --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "faltin2001" <dirk@s...> wrote:

            > However, I thought that Jordanes' Oium is linked with modern
            German
            > Heim, i.e. home.


            Hi Dirk,

            Maybe, but I gather Latin writers usually render Gothic <ai> in
            personal names as <ai> or <ei>, or sometimes <e> (Dagalaiphus,
            Gaina, Radagaisus, Vajasindus; Gisaleicus; Gesila, Gesimundus;
            also 'eils' in De Conviviis Barbaris).

            But <auj> tends to appear as <oi> in Latin, e.g. names beginning
            Froi-, Froj- = Go. Frauj-.

            Examples from Braune/Helm "Gotische Grammatik", and Koebler's Anhang
            3 Wörterbuch der gotischen Namen:

            http://www.koeblergerhard.de/gotwbhin.html

            Llama Nom
          • Manie Lombard
            Hails But does not auja mean luck ? Manie ... From: llama_nom To: Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2005
            Message 5 of 18 , Feb 24, 2005
              Hails

              But does not auja mean "luck"?

              Manie

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "llama_nom" <600cell@...>
              To: <gothic-l@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2005 7:25 PM
              Subject: [gothic-l] Re: kusanata (Jordanes in Gothic)


              >
              >
              >
              > Hi Vladimir,
              >
              > That's interesting. The nominative singular of Gothic *aujom
              > (dat.pl.) would be *auja (feminine jo-stem). The actualy form in
              > Jordanes is Oium/Ojum. Germanic cognates include:
              >
              > OIc. ey
              > OFris. ey
              > Langobardic *auja
              > OE ieg (survives in MnE island, with spelling influenced by the
              > unrelated French isle)
              >
              > Under island the Oxford English dictionary comments: "1. a. A piece
              > of land completely surrounded by water. Formerly used less
              > definitely, including a peninsula, or a place insulated at high
              > water or during floods, or begirt by marshes, a usage which survives
              > in particular instances..." (e.g. certain place names.)
              >
              > (And related, German Au(e) < OHG ouwa.)
              >
              > I'm completely ignorant of the history of Finnish, so I don't know
              > if changes in Finnish alone can account for the form given, but in
              > Germanic this word would be *aujo > Proto Norse *auju.
              >
              > Llama Nom
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "?????? ????????" <vegorov@i...>
              > wrote:
              >> *****
              >>
              >> Hi Llama Nom!
              >>
              >> If <Aujom> is treated as the dative, what could be the nominative?
              >> Accordingly, may be considered, in your opinion,
              >> Finnish <oja> "ditch, drain" as a possible origin
              >> of this mysterious toponym?
              >>
              >> Vladimir
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >> -----Original Message-----
              >> From: llama_nom [mailto:600cell@o...]
              >> Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 7:48 PM
              >> To: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com
              >> Subject: [gothic-l] Re: kusanata (Jordanes in Gothic)
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >> ...
              >> "ana Aujom" I treated it like names where the preposition and
              > dative
              >> are conventionally fixed as part of the name, as sometimes happens
              >> in OE and ON, since the Latin form seems to have taken over the
              >> dative ending from Gothic.
              >> ...
              >>
              >> Llama Nom
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >> You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a
              > blank email to <gothic-l-unsubscribe@egroups.com>.
              >> Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a blank email
              > to <gothic-l-unsubscribe@egroups.com>.
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
            • llama_nom
              Hails Manie, First, a correction to something I wrote: The word meaning water meadow, land liable to flooding, island, etc. , jo-stem, feminine, would
              Message 6 of 18 , Feb 24, 2005
                Hails Manie,

                First, a correction to something I wrote: The word meaning "water
                meadow, land liable to flooding, island, etc.", jo-stem, feminine,
                would actually give Gothic *AWI in the nominative singular, declined
                like 'mawi' (acc.sg. *auja, etc.).

                I think the word meaning "luck" is cited in the form AUJA by Koebler
                because one of the early Scandinavian runic inscriptions which
                contains it has been considered East Germanic. But the grounds for
                such attributions I gather is often quite tenuous.

                The regular Gothic form corresponding to Proto Norse AUJA would be
                *AWI as well, neuter ja-stem, declined like 'hawi'.

                Llama Nom



                --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "Manie Lombard" <manielombard@c...>
                wrote:
                > Hails
                >
                > But does not auja mean "luck"?
                >
                > Manie
                >
                > ----- Original Message -----
                > From: "llama_nom" <600cell@o...>
                > To: <gothic-l@yahoogroups.com>
                > Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2005 7:25 PM
                > Subject: [gothic-l] Re: kusanata (Jordanes in Gothic)
                >
                >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > Hi Vladimir,
                > >
                > > That's interesting. The nominative singular of Gothic *aujom
                > > (dat.pl.) would be *auja (feminine jo-stem). The actualy form in
                > > Jordanes is Oium/Ojum. Germanic cognates include:
                > >
                > > OIc. ey
                > > OFris. ey
                > > Langobardic *auja
                > > OE ieg (survives in MnE island, with spelling influenced by the
                > > unrelated French isle)
                > >
                > > Under island the Oxford English dictionary comments: "1. a. A
                piece
                > > of land completely surrounded by water. Formerly used less
                > > definitely, including a peninsula, or a place insulated at high
                > > water or during floods, or begirt by marshes, a usage which
                survives
                > > in particular instances..." (e.g. certain place names.)
                > >
                > > (And related, German Au(e) < OHG ouwa.)
                > >
                > > I'm completely ignorant of the history of Finnish, so I don't
                know
                > > if changes in Finnish alone can account for the form given, but
                in
                > > Germanic this word would be *aujo > Proto Norse *auju.
                > >
                > > Llama Nom
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "?????? ????????" <vegorov@i...>
                > > wrote:
                > >> *****
                > >>
                > >> Hi Llama Nom!
                > >>
                > >> If <Aujom> is treated as the dative, what could be the
                nominative?
                > >> Accordingly, may be considered, in your opinion,
                > >> Finnish <oja> "ditch, drain" as a possible origin
                > >> of this mysterious toponym?
                > >>
                > >> Vladimir
                > >>
                > >>
                > >>
                > >>
                > >>
                > >>
                > >> -----Original Message-----
                > >> From: llama_nom [mailto:600cell@o...]
                > >> Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 7:48 PM
                > >> To: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com
                > >> Subject: [gothic-l] Re: kusanata (Jordanes in Gothic)
                > >>
                > >>
                > >>
                > >>
                > >> ...
                > >> "ana Aujom" I treated it like names where the preposition and
                > > dative
                > >> are conventionally fixed as part of the name, as sometimes
                happens
                > >> in OE and ON, since the Latin form seems to have taken over the
                > >> dative ending from Gothic.
                > >> ...
                > >>
                > >> Llama Nom
                > >>
                > >>
                > >>
                > >>
                > >>
                > >>
                > >> You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a
                > > blank email to <gothic-l-unsubscribe@egroups.com>.
                > >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a
                blank email
                > > to <gothic-l-unsubscribe@egroups.com>.
                > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
              • llama_nom
                In which case: Go. *Skadinawi = OE scedenig = OIc. Skáney = Skaane, if this contains the island word, in its broader sense of land only partly surrounded by
                Message 7 of 18 , Feb 25, 2005
                  In which case: Go. *Skadinawi = OE scedenig = OIc. Skáney = Skaane,
                  if this contains the "island" word, in its broader sense of land
                  only partly surrounded by water.

                  LN



                  --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <600cell@o...> wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > Hails Manie,
                  >
                  > First, a correction to something I wrote: The word meaning "water
                  > meadow, land liable to flooding, island, etc.", jo-stem, feminine,
                  > would actually give Gothic *AWI in the nominative singular,
                  declined
                  > like 'mawi' (acc.sg. *auja, etc.).
                  >
                  > I think the word meaning "luck" is cited in the form AUJA by
                  Koebler
                  > because one of the early Scandinavian runic inscriptions which
                  > contains it has been considered East Germanic. But the grounds
                  for
                  > such attributions I gather is often quite tenuous.
                  >
                  > The regular Gothic form corresponding to Proto Norse AUJA would be
                  > *AWI as well, neuter ja-stem, declined like 'hawi'.
                  >
                  > Llama Nom
                • faltin2001
                  ... Anhang ... Hi Llama Nom, that is interesting. I only cited the supposed link with m.Germ. Heim, because it is mentioned in H. Wolfram s book (I think).
                  Message 8 of 18 , Feb 25, 2005
                    --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <600cell@o...> wrote:
                    >
                    > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "faltin2001" <dirk@s...> wrote:
                    >
                    > > However, I thought that Jordanes' Oium is linked with modern
                    > German
                    > > Heim, i.e. home.
                    >
                    >
                    > Hi Dirk,
                    >
                    > Maybe, but I gather Latin writers usually render Gothic <ai> in
                    > personal names as <ai> or <ei>, or sometimes <e> (Dagalaiphus,
                    > Gaina, Radagaisus, Vajasindus; Gisaleicus; Gesila, Gesimundus;
                    > also 'eils' in De Conviviis Barbaris).
                    >
                    > But <auj> tends to appear as <oi> in Latin, e.g. names beginning
                    > Froi-, Froj- = Go. Frauj-.
                    >
                    > Examples from Braune/Helm "Gotische Grammatik", and Koebler's
                    Anhang
                    > 3 Wörterbuch der gotischen Namen:
                    >
                    > http://www.koeblergerhard.de/gotwbhin.html
                    >
                    > Llama Nom



                    Hi Llama Nom,

                    that is interesting. I only cited the supposed link with m.Germ.
                    Heim, because it is mentioned in H. Wolfram's book (I think).

                    Cheers
                    Dirk
                  • OSCAR HERRERA
                    what is goth for then or than....the dictionary says thau,i think ,however im not sure....hwa ist gutiska faur then aithau than...tho boko qaths thau,ik
                    Message 9 of 18 , Feb 25, 2005
                      what is goth for then or than....the dictionary says thau,i think ,however im not sure....hwa ist gutiska faur then aithau than...tho boko qaths thau,ik thigk,auk ik im ni hails....oscar herrera

                      llama_nom <600cell@...> wrote:


                      In which case: Go. *Skadinawi = OE scedenig = OIc. Sk�ney = Skaane,
                      if this contains the "island" word, in its broader sense of land
                      only partly surrounded by water.

                      LN



                      --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <600cell@o...> wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      > Hails Manie,
                      >
                      > First, a correction to something I wrote: The word meaning "water
                      > meadow, land liable to flooding, island, etc.", jo-stem, feminine,
                      > would actually give Gothic *AWI in the nominative singular,
                      declined
                      > like 'mawi' (acc.sg. *auja, etc.).
                      >
                      > I think the word meaning "luck" is cited in the form AUJA by
                      Koebler
                      > because one of the early Scandinavian runic inscriptions which
                      > contains it has been considered East Germanic. But the grounds
                      for
                      > such attributions I gather is often quite tenuous.
                      >
                      > The regular Gothic form corresponding to Proto Norse AUJA would be
                      > *AWI as well, neuter ja-stem, declined like 'hawi'.
                      >
                      > Llama Nom







                      You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a blank email to .
                      Yahoo! Groups Links










                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Сергей Черныш
                      Hello I would like to draw your attention to limestone slab with runic inscription (http://mogilnik.narod.ru/Stella.htm). It was found by South-Bosporian
                      Message 10 of 18 , Feb 27, 2005
                        Hello
                        I would like to draw your attention to limestone slab with runic inscription (http://mogilnik.narod.ru/Stella.htm). It was found by South-Bosporian expedition of the Crimean branch of Institute of archeology National Academy of Science of Ukraine on mountain Opuk in Kerch region (look at the map). Here ancient authors mentioned the city of Kimmerik. In 4 AD on mountain the citadel has been constructed when Uzunlar wall becomes a border between Chersonese and Bosporus. The Citadel survived up to 6 century AD.
                        The size of a plate 0,62 х 0,49 х 0,20 m. Height of signs of 0,15 m, relief depth - 0,005-0,009 m (cut out was a background, so cross and signs are elevated).
                        Publicators interpreted inscription as a herulic and descended from local pagan sanctuary ( VK Golenko, VJ Yurochkin, OA Sin'ko, AV Djanov - Runicheskij kamen' s gory Opuk i nekotoryje problemy istorii severoprichernomorskich germanzev ( Runic stone from Opuk mountain and some questions of history of germans on North coast of Black sea ) . In: Drevnosti Bospora 2. (Antiquities of Bospor)
                        Their interpretation is disputable enough. Some of specialists considered authenticity of this find as doubtful.
                        It would be interesting to know your opinion.
                      • Troels Brandt
                        ... inscription (http://mogilnik.narod.ru/Stella.htm). It was found by South-Bosporian expedition of the Crimean branch of Institute of archeology National
                        Message 11 of 18 , Mar 7, 2005
                          --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, óÅÒÇÅÊ þÅÒÎÙÛ <authari@m...> wrote:
                          >
                          >
                          > Hello
                          > I would like to draw your attention to limestone slab with runic
                          inscription (http://mogilnik.narod.ru/Stella.htm). It was found by
                          South-Bosporian expedition of the Crimean branch of Institute of
                          archeology National Academy of Science of Ukraine on mountain Opuk in
                          Kerch region (look at the map). Here ancient authors mentioned the
                          city of Kimmerik. In 4 AD on mountain the citadel has been
                          constructed when Uzunlar wall becomes a border between Chersonese and
                          Bosporus. The Citadel survived up to 6 century AD.
                          > The size of a plate 0,62 È 0,49 È 0,20 m. Height of signs of 0,15
                          m, relief depth - 0,005-0,009 m (cut out was a background, so cross
                          and signs are elevated).
                          > Publicators interpreted inscription as a herulic and descended from
                          local pagan sanctuary ( VK Golenko, VJ Yurochkin, OA Sin'ko, AV
                          Djanov - Runicheskij kamen' s gory Opuk i nekotoryje problemy
                          istorii severoprichernomorskich germanzev ( Runic stone from Opuk
                          mountain and some questions of history of germans on North coast of
                          Black sea ) . In: Drevnosti Bospora 2. (Antiquities of Bospor)
                          > Their interpretation is disputable enough. Some of specialists
                          considered authenticity of this find as doubtful.
                          > It would be interesting to know your opinion.



                          I guess you among other possibilities are searching for Scandinavian
                          traces as you mentioned the Heruls.

                          I am not the right to answer and llama has answered the linquistc
                          part. I can only add the theoretical possibility that the runes
                          represented their symbolic Norse names: Thurs (troll), Pertra (maybe
                          stone), Reid (riding) and As (Ansuz, god), but I doubt - especiallly
                          as the T is reverse, which might indicate a forgery or missing
                          knowledge of runes. A relief was an unusal way to carve runes - and
                          most of the early runes were not carved in stone at all, but I think
                          that depends of local practice.

                          The Scandinavian wheel crosses normally belonged to the Bronce Ages
                          and were at the later bracteats normally replaced by the swastica,
                          but a wheel cross was placed at one of the boats from the Baltic Sea
                          found in Nydam - contemporary with the dating of your stone if 4 AD
                          is the 4th century.

                          Primarily I am interested to hear why this stone is combined with the
                          Heruls - except for the runes of course. Is there any specific reason
                          for that?

                          Troels
                        • llama_nom
                          ... Far from it: I haven´t answered anything, only suggested some more questions! I just tried to give a summary of what sort of inscriptions have been found
                          Message 12 of 18 , Mar 7, 2005
                            --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "Troels Brandt" <trbrandt@p...>
                            wrote:

                            > I am not the right to answer and llama has answered the linquistc
                            > part.


                            Far from it: I haven´t answered anything, only suggested some more
                            questions! I just tried to give a summary of what sort of
                            inscriptions have been found so far that are attributed to East
                            Germanic peoples such as the Goths and Heruls. Anything else is
                            pure speculation on my part.

                            Troels mentions the idea of runes used as ideographs, standing for
                            the concept represented by the name of the rune
                            (called "Begriffsrunen" in German, "begrepsruner" in Norwegian,
                            which term is sometimes translated "concept runes" in English).
                            That´s something I hadn´t thought of, but an interesting possibility
                            to consider. The technique is probably used in some Scandinavian
                            inscriptions predating the Viking Age (e.g. Stentoften & Gummarp),
                            and it is attested somewhat later in Anglo-Saxon manuscripts, but
                            there are many inscriptions where the use of concept runes is
                            disputed, or impossible to prove. There is one widely accepted
                            example of a concept rune in an inscription considered to be Gothic:
                            the Pietroassa ring, found in Romania. Here, as at Stentoften, the
                            ideograph as part of a text which otherwise is spelt out in full--
                            rather than a series of initials.

                            Here is a quote from JH Looijenga's book "Runes Around the North
                            Sea...", she is talking about finds from before the Viking period:

                            "Personally I have difficulties determining when and if an
                            ideographic rune (or Begriffsrune) was used, since the runewriters'
                            criteria for using them are unknown to us. There is at least
                            one clear instance of the use of an ideographic rune: the single j
                            rune on the Stentoften stone, representing its name *jara
                            meaning `good year' = harvest. The peculiar use of this ideograph
                            is further emphasized by the fact that it was carved in an archaic
                            fashion. The h in Thorsberg aisgzh may or may not be such a
                            Begriffsrune, there is no graphic peculiarity (h has no
                            archaic forerunner), but, in Antonsen's interpretation, it could
                            symbolize its name on syntactic grounds. In some other cases,
                            isolated runes may be read as abbreviations, such as the r in the
                            Sievern bracteate, which apparently denotes r[unoz]. Single runes
                            may have been read as abbreviations in the oldest inscriptions, and
                            may later on have come to represent the symbolic meaning of the
                            rune's name."

                            http://www.ub.rug.nl/eldoc/dis/arts/j.h.looijenga/


                            Needless to say, with a whole series of abbreviations, it would be
                            very hard to narrow down the possible interpretations. If they
                            stood for the concepts embodied in the rune names, it's easy to
                            think up symbolic interpretations, but hard if not impossible to
                            test them.

                            Llama Nom
                          • Troels Brandt
                            I agree in your comments below. It was the connection Kerch - Goths - Romenia - Pietroassa - Reicherts J -rune (discussed as at Stentoften) which made me
                            Message 13 of 18 , Mar 8, 2005
                              I agree in your comments below. It was the connection Kerch - Goths -
                              Romenia - Pietroassa - Reicherts "J"-rune (discussed as at
                              Stentoften) which made me suggest this theoretical possibility.

                              Troels

                              --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <600cell@o...> wrote:
                              >
                              > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "Troels Brandt" <trbrandt@p...>
                              > wrote:
                              >
                              > > I am not the right to answer and llama has answered the linquistc
                              > > part.
                              >
                              >
                              > Far from it: I haven´t answered anything, only suggested some more
                              > questions! I just tried to give a summary of what sort of
                              > inscriptions have been found so far that are attributed to East
                              > Germanic peoples such as the Goths and Heruls. Anything else is
                              > pure speculation on my part.
                              >
                              > Troels mentions the idea of runes used as ideographs, standing for
                              > the concept represented by the name of the rune
                              > (called "Begriffsrunen" in German, "begrepsruner" in Norwegian,
                              > which term is sometimes translated "concept runes" in English).
                              > That´s something I hadn´t thought of, but an interesting
                              possibility
                              > to consider. The technique is probably used in some Scandinavian
                              > inscriptions predating the Viking Age (e.g. Stentoften & Gummarp),
                              > and it is attested somewhat later in Anglo-Saxon manuscripts, but
                              > there are many inscriptions where the use of concept runes is
                              > disputed, or impossible to prove. There is one widely accepted
                              > example of a concept rune in an inscription considered to be
                              Gothic:
                              > the Pietroassa ring, found in Romania. Here, as at Stentoften, the
                              > ideograph as part of a text which otherwise is spelt out in full--
                              > rather than a series of initials.
                              >
                              > Here is a quote from JH Looijenga's book "Runes Around the North
                              > Sea...", she is talking about finds from before the Viking period:
                              >
                              > "Personally I have difficulties determining when and if an
                              > ideographic rune (or Begriffsrune) was used, since the runewriters'
                              > criteria for using them are unknown to us. There is at least
                              > one clear instance of the use of an ideographic rune: the single j
                              > rune on the Stentoften stone, representing its name *jara
                              > meaning `good year' = harvest. The peculiar use of this ideograph
                              > is further emphasized by the fact that it was carved in an archaic
                              > fashion. The h in Thorsberg aisgzh may or may not be such a
                              > Begriffsrune, there is no graphic peculiarity (h has no
                              > archaic forerunner), but, in Antonsen's interpretation, it could
                              > symbolize its name on syntactic grounds. In some other cases,
                              > isolated runes may be read as abbreviations, such as the r in the
                              > Sievern bracteate, which apparently denotes r[unoz]. Single runes
                              > may have been read as abbreviations in the oldest inscriptions, and
                              > may later on have come to represent the symbolic meaning of the
                              > rune's name."
                              >
                              > http://www.ub.rug.nl/eldoc/dis/arts/j.h.looijenga/
                              >
                              >
                              > Needless to say, with a whole series of abbreviations, it would be
                              > very hard to narrow down the possible interpretations. If they
                              > stood for the concepts embodied in the rune names, it's easy to
                              > think up symbolic interpretations, but hard if not impossible to
                              > test them.
                              >
                              > Llama Nom
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