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Re: kusanata (Jordanes in Gothic)

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  • llama_nom
    ... goths.... Hi Oscar, chosen ( kusanata is the past participle of the verb kiusan to chose + neuter nominative/accusative ending -ata.) optatum potita
    Message 1 of 18 , Feb 16, 2005
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      --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, OSCAR HERRERA <duke.co@s...> wrote:
      > w
      > hwa ist gaskieran faur kusanata....ik funth in jordanes on the
      goths....


      Hi Oscar,

      "chosen" ('kusanata' is the past participle of the verb 'kiusan' "to
      chose" + neuter nominative/accusative ending -ata.)

      optatum potita solum

      Yeat: "took possession of the desired land"
      http://www.harbornet.com/folks/theedrich/Goths/Goths1.htm

      Mierow: "came into possession of the desired land"
      http://www.acs.ucalgary.ca/~vandersp/Courses/texts/jordgeti.html

      By "jordanes on the goths" I take it you're referring to a
      translation into Gothic by members of this group from the original
      Latin:

      http://www.stormloader.com/carver/gutrazda/jordanes.html


      For some reason I must have missed this, or forgotten about it. I
      probably saw it years ago, but didn't know enough about Gothic at
      that time to appreciate it. It does look quite convincing: I'm
      impressed! One criticism: I don't think the enclitic -uh can be
      attached to nouns to mean "and", only to verbs and verbal prefixes.
      It can attach to anything to give the senses "now" or "incidentally"-
      -usually in the combination -uh þan / -uþ-þan. Here's some notes
      summarising my current (far from perfect) understanding of this
      particle:

      http://www.oe.eclipse.co.uk/nom/uh.htm



      If anyone's interested, here's my attempt at the same passage
      (though I didn't get quite as far), done a couple of months ago,
      with the help of all the fantastic Gothic resources now available on
      the internet:


      Us hulma þammei Skandjai haitada, swe us þiudo smiþjon, aiþþau swe
      raihtis us kunje kilþein, swah miþ þiudana seinamma, namin haitans
      Bairika, gutans usiddjedun. Sunsei ana airþai usiddjedun, þana staþ
      afar seinamma namin haihaitun. Jah und hina dag, swa qiþada,
      Gutiskandja haitada.

      Þaþroh suns atiddjedun du Hulmarugje stadim, þaiei þan wiþra mareins
      bauaidedun. Bibaurgein waurhtedun jah þans usdribun us ize
      gabaurþai, Wandalans jah ubuhhnaiwidedun swaei sis biaiaikun sigisa.

      Iþ þan þiuda ufarassau managnoda. Jah þiudans warþ Filumers
      Gadareikis sunus, saei fimfta was afar Bairikan, sah garuni nam jah
      baþ ei gutane harjis usiddjedeina miþ ize ingardam ut us þamma gawja.
      Atuh þan gatilos bauainins sokjandam jah andanemjos, qemun at Skyþe
      landam, þoei haitam "ana Aujom", jah faginodedun in gabeins þis
      landis. Jah at harjis halba ufarliþanai, brugja dishnupnoda, þoei
      ufarlaiþ, jah þanamais ni maht was galeiþan nih aftra qiman. Unte sa
      staþs saiwim jah reirandam fanjam bisatiþs was iþ bisunjane
      afgrundiþa. Jah und hina dag auhsne razdos gahausjan mahtos sind jah
      manne bigitan laistins, in þizai ferai, jabai du farane spilla
      galaubjam, sweþauh swaleik þatainei gaumiþ sijai fairraþro.


      NOTES:

      I think the reconstructed *Skadinaujo in the old version might be
      better than my Skandja lifted from the Latin, although I suppose the
      identity of the Gothic homeland is still debated of course, and
      according to one theory the identification with Scandinavia may be a
      learned notion not derived from genuine Gothic myth.

      *Bairika I took from Thedrich Yeat's translation, as this gives a
      possible meaning 'little bear'.

      Skyþj- / Skwþj- is just a spelling difference.

      "ana Aujom" I treated it like names where the preposition and dative
      are conventionally fixed as part of the name, as sometimes happens
      in OE and ON, since the Latin form seems to have taken over the
      dative ending from Gothic.

      There are a lot of differences, but probably most are equally valid,
      e.g. qiþada, merjada.

      Llama Nom
    • ?????? ????????
      ***** Hi Llama Nom! If is treated as the dative, what could be the nominative? Accordingly, may be considered, in your opinion, Finnish ditch,
      Message 2 of 18 , Feb 16, 2005
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        *****

        Hi Llama Nom!

        If <Aujom> is treated as the dative, what could be the nominative?
        Accordingly, may be considered, in your opinion,
        Finnish <oja> "ditch, drain" as a possible origin
        of this mysterious toponym?

        Vladimir






        -----Original Message-----
        From: llama_nom [mailto:600cell@...]
        Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 7:48 PM
        To: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [gothic-l] Re: kusanata (Jordanes in Gothic)




        ...
        "ana Aujom" I treated it like names where the preposition and dative
        are conventionally fixed as part of the name, as sometimes happens
        in OE and ON, since the Latin form seems to have taken over the
        dative ending from Gothic.
        ...

        Llama Nom






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      • llama_nom
        Hi Vladimir, That s interesting. The nominative singular of Gothic *aujom (dat.pl.) would be *auja (feminine jo-stem). The actualy form in Jordanes is
        Message 3 of 18 , Feb 17, 2005
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          Hi Vladimir,

          That's interesting. The nominative singular of Gothic *aujom
          (dat.pl.) would be *auja (feminine jo-stem). The actualy form in
          Jordanes is Oium/Ojum. Germanic cognates include:

          OIc. ey
          OFris. ey
          Langobardic *auja
          OE ieg (survives in MnE island, with spelling influenced by the
          unrelated French isle)

          Under island the Oxford English dictionary comments: "1. a. A piece
          of land completely surrounded by water. Formerly used less
          definitely, including a peninsula, or a place insulated at high
          water or during floods, or begirt by marshes, a usage which survives
          in particular instances..." (e.g. certain place names.)

          (And related, German Au(e) < OHG ouwa.)

          I'm completely ignorant of the history of Finnish, so I don't know
          if changes in Finnish alone can account for the form given, but in
          Germanic this word would be *aujo > Proto Norse *auju.

          Llama Nom





          --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "?????? ????????" <vegorov@i...>
          wrote:
          > *****
          >
          > Hi Llama Nom!
          >
          > If <Aujom> is treated as the dative, what could be the nominative?
          > Accordingly, may be considered, in your opinion,
          > Finnish <oja> "ditch, drain" as a possible origin
          > of this mysterious toponym?
          >
          > Vladimir
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > -----Original Message-----
          > From: llama_nom [mailto:600cell@o...]
          > Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 7:48 PM
          > To: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com
          > Subject: [gothic-l] Re: kusanata (Jordanes in Gothic)
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > ...
          > "ana Aujom" I treated it like names where the preposition and
          dative
          > are conventionally fixed as part of the name, as sometimes happens
          > in OE and ON, since the Latin form seems to have taken over the
          > dative ending from Gothic.
          > ...
          >
          > Llama Nom
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a
          blank email to <gothic-l-unsubscribe@egroups.com>.
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
        • faltin2001
          ... See also modern German Eiland = Insel = island. However, I thought that Jordanes Oium is linked with modern German Heim, i.e. home. Cheers Dirk
          Message 4 of 18 , Feb 24, 2005
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            --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <600cell@o...> wrote:
            >
            >
            > Hi Vladimir,
            >
            > That's interesting. The nominative singular of Gothic *aujom
            > (dat.pl.) would be *auja (feminine jo-stem). The actualy form in
            > Jordanes is Oium/Ojum. Germanic cognates include:
            >
            > OIc. ey
            > OFris. ey
            > Langobardic *auja
            > OE ieg (survives in MnE island, with spelling influenced by the
            > unrelated French isle)




            See also modern German Eiland = Insel = island.

            However, I thought that Jordanes' Oium is linked with modern German
            Heim, i.e. home.


            Cheers
            Dirk
          • llama_nom
            ... German ... Hi Dirk, Maybe, but I gather Latin writers usually render Gothic in personal names as or , or sometimes (Dagalaiphus, Gaina,
            Message 5 of 18 , Feb 24, 2005
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              --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "faltin2001" <dirk@s...> wrote:

              > However, I thought that Jordanes' Oium is linked with modern
              German
              > Heim, i.e. home.


              Hi Dirk,

              Maybe, but I gather Latin writers usually render Gothic <ai> in
              personal names as <ai> or <ei>, or sometimes <e> (Dagalaiphus,
              Gaina, Radagaisus, Vajasindus; Gisaleicus; Gesila, Gesimundus;
              also 'eils' in De Conviviis Barbaris).

              But <auj> tends to appear as <oi> in Latin, e.g. names beginning
              Froi-, Froj- = Go. Frauj-.

              Examples from Braune/Helm "Gotische Grammatik", and Koebler's Anhang
              3 Wörterbuch der gotischen Namen:

              http://www.koeblergerhard.de/gotwbhin.html

              Llama Nom
            • Manie Lombard
              Hails But does not auja mean luck ? Manie ... From: llama_nom To: Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2005
              Message 6 of 18 , Feb 24, 2005
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                Hails

                But does not auja mean "luck"?

                Manie

                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "llama_nom" <600cell@...>
                To: <gothic-l@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2005 7:25 PM
                Subject: [gothic-l] Re: kusanata (Jordanes in Gothic)


                >
                >
                >
                > Hi Vladimir,
                >
                > That's interesting. The nominative singular of Gothic *aujom
                > (dat.pl.) would be *auja (feminine jo-stem). The actualy form in
                > Jordanes is Oium/Ojum. Germanic cognates include:
                >
                > OIc. ey
                > OFris. ey
                > Langobardic *auja
                > OE ieg (survives in MnE island, with spelling influenced by the
                > unrelated French isle)
                >
                > Under island the Oxford English dictionary comments: "1. a. A piece
                > of land completely surrounded by water. Formerly used less
                > definitely, including a peninsula, or a place insulated at high
                > water or during floods, or begirt by marshes, a usage which survives
                > in particular instances..." (e.g. certain place names.)
                >
                > (And related, German Au(e) < OHG ouwa.)
                >
                > I'm completely ignorant of the history of Finnish, so I don't know
                > if changes in Finnish alone can account for the form given, but in
                > Germanic this word would be *aujo > Proto Norse *auju.
                >
                > Llama Nom
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "?????? ????????" <vegorov@i...>
                > wrote:
                >> *****
                >>
                >> Hi Llama Nom!
                >>
                >> If <Aujom> is treated as the dative, what could be the nominative?
                >> Accordingly, may be considered, in your opinion,
                >> Finnish <oja> "ditch, drain" as a possible origin
                >> of this mysterious toponym?
                >>
                >> Vladimir
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >> -----Original Message-----
                >> From: llama_nom [mailto:600cell@o...]
                >> Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 7:48 PM
                >> To: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com
                >> Subject: [gothic-l] Re: kusanata (Jordanes in Gothic)
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >> ...
                >> "ana Aujom" I treated it like names where the preposition and
                > dative
                >> are conventionally fixed as part of the name, as sometimes happens
                >> in OE and ON, since the Latin form seems to have taken over the
                >> dative ending from Gothic.
                >> ...
                >>
                >> Llama Nom
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >> You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a
                > blank email to <gothic-l-unsubscribe@egroups.com>.
                >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a blank email
                > to <gothic-l-unsubscribe@egroups.com>.
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
              • llama_nom
                Hails Manie, First, a correction to something I wrote: The word meaning water meadow, land liable to flooding, island, etc. , jo-stem, feminine, would
                Message 7 of 18 , Feb 24, 2005
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                  Hails Manie,

                  First, a correction to something I wrote: The word meaning "water
                  meadow, land liable to flooding, island, etc.", jo-stem, feminine,
                  would actually give Gothic *AWI in the nominative singular, declined
                  like 'mawi' (acc.sg. *auja, etc.).

                  I think the word meaning "luck" is cited in the form AUJA by Koebler
                  because one of the early Scandinavian runic inscriptions which
                  contains it has been considered East Germanic. But the grounds for
                  such attributions I gather is often quite tenuous.

                  The regular Gothic form corresponding to Proto Norse AUJA would be
                  *AWI as well, neuter ja-stem, declined like 'hawi'.

                  Llama Nom



                  --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "Manie Lombard" <manielombard@c...>
                  wrote:
                  > Hails
                  >
                  > But does not auja mean "luck"?
                  >
                  > Manie
                  >
                  > ----- Original Message -----
                  > From: "llama_nom" <600cell@o...>
                  > To: <gothic-l@yahoogroups.com>
                  > Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2005 7:25 PM
                  > Subject: [gothic-l] Re: kusanata (Jordanes in Gothic)
                  >
                  >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Hi Vladimir,
                  > >
                  > > That's interesting. The nominative singular of Gothic *aujom
                  > > (dat.pl.) would be *auja (feminine jo-stem). The actualy form in
                  > > Jordanes is Oium/Ojum. Germanic cognates include:
                  > >
                  > > OIc. ey
                  > > OFris. ey
                  > > Langobardic *auja
                  > > OE ieg (survives in MnE island, with spelling influenced by the
                  > > unrelated French isle)
                  > >
                  > > Under island the Oxford English dictionary comments: "1. a. A
                  piece
                  > > of land completely surrounded by water. Formerly used less
                  > > definitely, including a peninsula, or a place insulated at high
                  > > water or during floods, or begirt by marshes, a usage which
                  survives
                  > > in particular instances..." (e.g. certain place names.)
                  > >
                  > > (And related, German Au(e) < OHG ouwa.)
                  > >
                  > > I'm completely ignorant of the history of Finnish, so I don't
                  know
                  > > if changes in Finnish alone can account for the form given, but
                  in
                  > > Germanic this word would be *aujo > Proto Norse *auju.
                  > >
                  > > Llama Nom
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "?????? ????????" <vegorov@i...>
                  > > wrote:
                  > >> *****
                  > >>
                  > >> Hi Llama Nom!
                  > >>
                  > >> If <Aujom> is treated as the dative, what could be the
                  nominative?
                  > >> Accordingly, may be considered, in your opinion,
                  > >> Finnish <oja> "ditch, drain" as a possible origin
                  > >> of this mysterious toponym?
                  > >>
                  > >> Vladimir
                  > >>
                  > >>
                  > >>
                  > >>
                  > >>
                  > >>
                  > >> -----Original Message-----
                  > >> From: llama_nom [mailto:600cell@o...]
                  > >> Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 7:48 PM
                  > >> To: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com
                  > >> Subject: [gothic-l] Re: kusanata (Jordanes in Gothic)
                  > >>
                  > >>
                  > >>
                  > >>
                  > >> ...
                  > >> "ana Aujom" I treated it like names where the preposition and
                  > > dative
                  > >> are conventionally fixed as part of the name, as sometimes
                  happens
                  > >> in OE and ON, since the Latin form seems to have taken over the
                  > >> dative ending from Gothic.
                  > >> ...
                  > >>
                  > >> Llama Nom
                  > >>
                  > >>
                  > >>
                  > >>
                  > >>
                  > >>
                  > >> You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a
                  > > blank email to <gothic-l-unsubscribe@egroups.com>.
                  > >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a
                  blank email
                  > > to <gothic-l-unsubscribe@egroups.com>.
                  > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                • llama_nom
                  In which case: Go. *Skadinawi = OE scedenig = OIc. Skáney = Skaane, if this contains the island word, in its broader sense of land only partly surrounded by
                  Message 8 of 18 , Feb 25, 2005
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                    In which case: Go. *Skadinawi = OE scedenig = OIc. Skáney = Skaane,
                    if this contains the "island" word, in its broader sense of land
                    only partly surrounded by water.

                    LN



                    --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <600cell@o...> wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    > Hails Manie,
                    >
                    > First, a correction to something I wrote: The word meaning "water
                    > meadow, land liable to flooding, island, etc.", jo-stem, feminine,
                    > would actually give Gothic *AWI in the nominative singular,
                    declined
                    > like 'mawi' (acc.sg. *auja, etc.).
                    >
                    > I think the word meaning "luck" is cited in the form AUJA by
                    Koebler
                    > because one of the early Scandinavian runic inscriptions which
                    > contains it has been considered East Germanic. But the grounds
                    for
                    > such attributions I gather is often quite tenuous.
                    >
                    > The regular Gothic form corresponding to Proto Norse AUJA would be
                    > *AWI as well, neuter ja-stem, declined like 'hawi'.
                    >
                    > Llama Nom
                  • faltin2001
                    ... Anhang ... Hi Llama Nom, that is interesting. I only cited the supposed link with m.Germ. Heim, because it is mentioned in H. Wolfram s book (I think).
                    Message 9 of 18 , Feb 25, 2005
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                      --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <600cell@o...> wrote:
                      >
                      > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "faltin2001" <dirk@s...> wrote:
                      >
                      > > However, I thought that Jordanes' Oium is linked with modern
                      > German
                      > > Heim, i.e. home.
                      >
                      >
                      > Hi Dirk,
                      >
                      > Maybe, but I gather Latin writers usually render Gothic <ai> in
                      > personal names as <ai> or <ei>, or sometimes <e> (Dagalaiphus,
                      > Gaina, Radagaisus, Vajasindus; Gisaleicus; Gesila, Gesimundus;
                      > also 'eils' in De Conviviis Barbaris).
                      >
                      > But <auj> tends to appear as <oi> in Latin, e.g. names beginning
                      > Froi-, Froj- = Go. Frauj-.
                      >
                      > Examples from Braune/Helm "Gotische Grammatik", and Koebler's
                      Anhang
                      > 3 Wörterbuch der gotischen Namen:
                      >
                      > http://www.koeblergerhard.de/gotwbhin.html
                      >
                      > Llama Nom



                      Hi Llama Nom,

                      that is interesting. I only cited the supposed link with m.Germ.
                      Heim, because it is mentioned in H. Wolfram's book (I think).

                      Cheers
                      Dirk
                    • OSCAR HERRERA
                      what is goth for then or than....the dictionary says thau,i think ,however im not sure....hwa ist gutiska faur then aithau than...tho boko qaths thau,ik
                      Message 10 of 18 , Feb 25, 2005
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                        what is goth for then or than....the dictionary says thau,i think ,however im not sure....hwa ist gutiska faur then aithau than...tho boko qaths thau,ik thigk,auk ik im ni hails....oscar herrera

                        llama_nom <600cell@...> wrote:


                        In which case: Go. *Skadinawi = OE scedenig = OIc. Sk�ney = Skaane,
                        if this contains the "island" word, in its broader sense of land
                        only partly surrounded by water.

                        LN



                        --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <600cell@o...> wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        > Hails Manie,
                        >
                        > First, a correction to something I wrote: The word meaning "water
                        > meadow, land liable to flooding, island, etc.", jo-stem, feminine,
                        > would actually give Gothic *AWI in the nominative singular,
                        declined
                        > like 'mawi' (acc.sg. *auja, etc.).
                        >
                        > I think the word meaning "luck" is cited in the form AUJA by
                        Koebler
                        > because one of the early Scandinavian runic inscriptions which
                        > contains it has been considered East Germanic. But the grounds
                        for
                        > such attributions I gather is often quite tenuous.
                        >
                        > The regular Gothic form corresponding to Proto Norse AUJA would be
                        > *AWI as well, neuter ja-stem, declined like 'hawi'.
                        >
                        > Llama Nom







                        You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a blank email to .
                        Yahoo! Groups Links










                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Сергей Черныш
                        Hello I would like to draw your attention to limestone slab with runic inscription (http://mogilnik.narod.ru/Stella.htm). It was found by South-Bosporian
                        Message 11 of 18 , Feb 27, 2005
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                          Hello
                          I would like to draw your attention to limestone slab with runic inscription (http://mogilnik.narod.ru/Stella.htm). It was found by South-Bosporian expedition of the Crimean branch of Institute of archeology National Academy of Science of Ukraine on mountain Opuk in Kerch region (look at the map). Here ancient authors mentioned the city of Kimmerik. In 4 AD on mountain the citadel has been constructed when Uzunlar wall becomes a border between Chersonese and Bosporus. The Citadel survived up to 6 century AD.
                          The size of a plate 0,62 х 0,49 х 0,20 m. Height of signs of 0,15 m, relief depth - 0,005-0,009 m (cut out was a background, so cross and signs are elevated).
                          Publicators interpreted inscription as a herulic and descended from local pagan sanctuary ( VK Golenko, VJ Yurochkin, OA Sin'ko, AV Djanov - Runicheskij kamen' s gory Opuk i nekotoryje problemy istorii severoprichernomorskich germanzev ( Runic stone from Opuk mountain and some questions of history of germans on North coast of Black sea ) . In: Drevnosti Bospora 2. (Antiquities of Bospor)
                          Their interpretation is disputable enough. Some of specialists considered authenticity of this find as doubtful.
                          It would be interesting to know your opinion.
                        • Troels Brandt
                          ... inscription (http://mogilnik.narod.ru/Stella.htm). It was found by South-Bosporian expedition of the Crimean branch of Institute of archeology National
                          Message 12 of 18 , Mar 7, 2005
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                            --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, óÅÒÇÅÊ þÅÒÎÙÛ <authari@m...> wrote:
                            >
                            >
                            > Hello
                            > I would like to draw your attention to limestone slab with runic
                            inscription (http://mogilnik.narod.ru/Stella.htm). It was found by
                            South-Bosporian expedition of the Crimean branch of Institute of
                            archeology National Academy of Science of Ukraine on mountain Opuk in
                            Kerch region (look at the map). Here ancient authors mentioned the
                            city of Kimmerik. In 4 AD on mountain the citadel has been
                            constructed when Uzunlar wall becomes a border between Chersonese and
                            Bosporus. The Citadel survived up to 6 century AD.
                            > The size of a plate 0,62 È 0,49 È 0,20 m. Height of signs of 0,15
                            m, relief depth - 0,005-0,009 m (cut out was a background, so cross
                            and signs are elevated).
                            > Publicators interpreted inscription as a herulic and descended from
                            local pagan sanctuary ( VK Golenko, VJ Yurochkin, OA Sin'ko, AV
                            Djanov - Runicheskij kamen' s gory Opuk i nekotoryje problemy
                            istorii severoprichernomorskich germanzev ( Runic stone from Opuk
                            mountain and some questions of history of germans on North coast of
                            Black sea ) . In: Drevnosti Bospora 2. (Antiquities of Bospor)
                            > Their interpretation is disputable enough. Some of specialists
                            considered authenticity of this find as doubtful.
                            > It would be interesting to know your opinion.



                            I guess you among other possibilities are searching for Scandinavian
                            traces as you mentioned the Heruls.

                            I am not the right to answer and llama has answered the linquistc
                            part. I can only add the theoretical possibility that the runes
                            represented their symbolic Norse names: Thurs (troll), Pertra (maybe
                            stone), Reid (riding) and As (Ansuz, god), but I doubt - especiallly
                            as the T is reverse, which might indicate a forgery or missing
                            knowledge of runes. A relief was an unusal way to carve runes - and
                            most of the early runes were not carved in stone at all, but I think
                            that depends of local practice.

                            The Scandinavian wheel crosses normally belonged to the Bronce Ages
                            and were at the later bracteats normally replaced by the swastica,
                            but a wheel cross was placed at one of the boats from the Baltic Sea
                            found in Nydam - contemporary with the dating of your stone if 4 AD
                            is the 4th century.

                            Primarily I am interested to hear why this stone is combined with the
                            Heruls - except for the runes of course. Is there any specific reason
                            for that?

                            Troels
                          • llama_nom
                            ... Far from it: I haven´t answered anything, only suggested some more questions! I just tried to give a summary of what sort of inscriptions have been found
                            Message 13 of 18 , Mar 7, 2005
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                              --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "Troels Brandt" <trbrandt@p...>
                              wrote:

                              > I am not the right to answer and llama has answered the linquistc
                              > part.


                              Far from it: I haven´t answered anything, only suggested some more
                              questions! I just tried to give a summary of what sort of
                              inscriptions have been found so far that are attributed to East
                              Germanic peoples such as the Goths and Heruls. Anything else is
                              pure speculation on my part.

                              Troels mentions the idea of runes used as ideographs, standing for
                              the concept represented by the name of the rune
                              (called "Begriffsrunen" in German, "begrepsruner" in Norwegian,
                              which term is sometimes translated "concept runes" in English).
                              That´s something I hadn´t thought of, but an interesting possibility
                              to consider. The technique is probably used in some Scandinavian
                              inscriptions predating the Viking Age (e.g. Stentoften & Gummarp),
                              and it is attested somewhat later in Anglo-Saxon manuscripts, but
                              there are many inscriptions where the use of concept runes is
                              disputed, or impossible to prove. There is one widely accepted
                              example of a concept rune in an inscription considered to be Gothic:
                              the Pietroassa ring, found in Romania. Here, as at Stentoften, the
                              ideograph as part of a text which otherwise is spelt out in full--
                              rather than a series of initials.

                              Here is a quote from JH Looijenga's book "Runes Around the North
                              Sea...", she is talking about finds from before the Viking period:

                              "Personally I have difficulties determining when and if an
                              ideographic rune (or Begriffsrune) was used, since the runewriters'
                              criteria for using them are unknown to us. There is at least
                              one clear instance of the use of an ideographic rune: the single j
                              rune on the Stentoften stone, representing its name *jara
                              meaning `good year' = harvest. The peculiar use of this ideograph
                              is further emphasized by the fact that it was carved in an archaic
                              fashion. The h in Thorsberg aisgzh may or may not be such a
                              Begriffsrune, there is no graphic peculiarity (h has no
                              archaic forerunner), but, in Antonsen's interpretation, it could
                              symbolize its name on syntactic grounds. In some other cases,
                              isolated runes may be read as abbreviations, such as the r in the
                              Sievern bracteate, which apparently denotes r[unoz]. Single runes
                              may have been read as abbreviations in the oldest inscriptions, and
                              may later on have come to represent the symbolic meaning of the
                              rune's name."

                              http://www.ub.rug.nl/eldoc/dis/arts/j.h.looijenga/


                              Needless to say, with a whole series of abbreviations, it would be
                              very hard to narrow down the possible interpretations. If they
                              stood for the concepts embodied in the rune names, it's easy to
                              think up symbolic interpretations, but hard if not impossible to
                              test them.

                              Llama Nom
                            • Troels Brandt
                              I agree in your comments below. It was the connection Kerch - Goths - Romenia - Pietroassa - Reicherts J -rune (discussed as at Stentoften) which made me
                              Message 14 of 18 , Mar 8, 2005
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                                I agree in your comments below. It was the connection Kerch - Goths -
                                Romenia - Pietroassa - Reicherts "J"-rune (discussed as at
                                Stentoften) which made me suggest this theoretical possibility.

                                Troels

                                --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <600cell@o...> wrote:
                                >
                                > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "Troels Brandt" <trbrandt@p...>
                                > wrote:
                                >
                                > > I am not the right to answer and llama has answered the linquistc
                                > > part.
                                >
                                >
                                > Far from it: I haven´t answered anything, only suggested some more
                                > questions! I just tried to give a summary of what sort of
                                > inscriptions have been found so far that are attributed to East
                                > Germanic peoples such as the Goths and Heruls. Anything else is
                                > pure speculation on my part.
                                >
                                > Troels mentions the idea of runes used as ideographs, standing for
                                > the concept represented by the name of the rune
                                > (called "Begriffsrunen" in German, "begrepsruner" in Norwegian,
                                > which term is sometimes translated "concept runes" in English).
                                > That´s something I hadn´t thought of, but an interesting
                                possibility
                                > to consider. The technique is probably used in some Scandinavian
                                > inscriptions predating the Viking Age (e.g. Stentoften & Gummarp),
                                > and it is attested somewhat later in Anglo-Saxon manuscripts, but
                                > there are many inscriptions where the use of concept runes is
                                > disputed, or impossible to prove. There is one widely accepted
                                > example of a concept rune in an inscription considered to be
                                Gothic:
                                > the Pietroassa ring, found in Romania. Here, as at Stentoften, the
                                > ideograph as part of a text which otherwise is spelt out in full--
                                > rather than a series of initials.
                                >
                                > Here is a quote from JH Looijenga's book "Runes Around the North
                                > Sea...", she is talking about finds from before the Viking period:
                                >
                                > "Personally I have difficulties determining when and if an
                                > ideographic rune (or Begriffsrune) was used, since the runewriters'
                                > criteria for using them are unknown to us. There is at least
                                > one clear instance of the use of an ideographic rune: the single j
                                > rune on the Stentoften stone, representing its name *jara
                                > meaning `good year' = harvest. The peculiar use of this ideograph
                                > is further emphasized by the fact that it was carved in an archaic
                                > fashion. The h in Thorsberg aisgzh may or may not be such a
                                > Begriffsrune, there is no graphic peculiarity (h has no
                                > archaic forerunner), but, in Antonsen's interpretation, it could
                                > symbolize its name on syntactic grounds. In some other cases,
                                > isolated runes may be read as abbreviations, such as the r in the
                                > Sievern bracteate, which apparently denotes r[unoz]. Single runes
                                > may have been read as abbreviations in the oldest inscriptions, and
                                > may later on have come to represent the symbolic meaning of the
                                > rune's name."
                                >
                                > http://www.ub.rug.nl/eldoc/dis/arts/j.h.looijenga/
                                >
                                >
                                > Needless to say, with a whole series of abbreviations, it would be
                                > very hard to narrow down the possible interpretations. If they
                                > stood for the concepts embodied in the rune names, it's easy to
                                > think up symbolic interpretations, but hard if not impossible to
                                > test them.
                                >
                                > Llama Nom
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