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Re: some questions... (galukan, uslukan)

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  • llama_nom
    Hails Fredrik, Yes, unfortunately we re missing Mat 16,19 and Luke 11,52. There would have been a few keys in Revelations too. Who knows, maybe more Gothic
    Message 1 of 18 , Feb 15, 2005
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      Hails Fredrik,

      Yes, unfortunately we're missing Mat 16,19 and Luke 11,52. There
      would have been a few keys in Revelations too. Who knows, maybe
      more Gothic manuscripts will come to light one day. In the
      meantime, I think your idea is the most likely guess.
      Icelandic 'lykill' suggests a Gothic *lukils, masculine a-stem.

      Attested is the presumed neuter noun USLUK "hole, opening". Koebler
      has it with a short vowel, like German 'Loch'. And the following
      verbs, of which uslukan & galukan have a long vowel in the
      infinitive (strong class 2), and usluknan & galuknan have a short
      root vowel:


      uslukan +acc. "open something" +dat. "for someone"

      also +acc. "draw" a sword

      absolute sense "to open up, open the door/gate" +dat. "for s-one"
      þammuh daurawards uslukiþ "for him the watchman opens up"



      galukan +acc. in +dat. "lock/shut someone in a place or state"
      galauk Iohannen in karkarai "he locked John in prison"

      +dat. or +acc. for doors
      galukands haurdai þeinai "shutting your door"
      ei guþ uslukai unsis haurd waurdis "so that God may open a door of
      speech for us"


      usluknan "be unlocked/opened"

      galuknan "be closed, be locked"

      _________________________________________

      Old English links:

      Old English Made Easy (including two-way OE-MnE, MnE-OE dictionary)
      http://home.comcast.net/~modean52


      Anglo-Saxon dictionaries of Bosworth & Toller, and of JR Clark Hall:
      http://www.ling.upenn.edu/~kurisuto/germanic/language_resources.html

      Bosworth & Toller "An Anglo-Saxon Dictionary"--under construction
      http://dontgohere.nu/oe/as-bt/
      http://bosworthandtoller.co.uk
      http://bosworthandtoller.com


      Gerhard Koebler has an Old English dictionary here too:
      http://www.koeblergerhard.de/publikat.html


      Online book: "(The Electronic) Introduction to Old English" by Peter
      S Barker
      http://www.wmich.edu/medieval/research/rawl/IOE/


      Hope that's of use,

      Llama Nom





      --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "Fredrik" <gadrauhts@h...> wrote:
      >
      > Hi!
      >
      > Here's some questions.
      >
      > 1) A word for 'key' seems to be lacking. The swedish word nyckel
      from
      > older lykil comes from *lukila- and is a form av lukan = shut,
      with a
      > instrumentalsuffix. Is there any form like this in gothic?
      >
      > 2) Can some one recomend any site with old english grammar, coz I
      > wanna now which gender some OE words have.
      >
      > /fredrik
    • OSCAR HERRERA
      w hwa ist gaskieran faur kusanata....ik funth in jordanes on the goths.... llama_nom wrote: Hails Fredrik, Yes, unfortunately we re
      Message 2 of 18 , Feb 15, 2005
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        w
        hwa ist gaskieran faur kusanata....ik funth in jordanes on the goths....

        llama_nom <600cell@...> wrote:



        Hails Fredrik,

        Yes, unfortunately we're missing Mat 16,19 and Luke 11,52. There
        would have been a few keys in Revelations too. Who knows, maybe
        more Gothic manuscripts will come to light one day. In the
        meantime, I think your idea is the most likely guess.
        Icelandic 'lykill' suggests a Gothic *lukils, masculine a-stem.

        Attested is the presumed neuter noun USLUK "hole, opening". Koebler
        has it with a short vowel, like German 'Loch'. And the following
        verbs, of which uslukan & galukan have a long vowel in the
        infinitive (strong class 2), and usluknan & galuknan have a short
        root vowel:


        uslukan +acc. "open something" +dat. "for someone"

        also +acc. "draw" a sword

        absolute sense "to open up, open the door/gate" +dat. "for s-one"
        �ammuh daurawards usluki� "for him the watchman opens up"



        galukan +acc. in +dat. "lock/shut someone in a place or state"
        galauk Iohannen in karkarai "he locked John in prison"

        +dat. or +acc. for doors
        galukands haurdai �einai "shutting your door"
        ei gu� uslukai unsis haurd waurdis "so that God may open a door of
        speech for us"


        usluknan "be unlocked/opened"

        galuknan "be closed, be locked"

        _________________________________________

        Old English links:

        Old English Made Easy (including two-way OE-MnE, MnE-OE dictionary)
        http://home.comcast.net/~modean52


        Anglo-Saxon dictionaries of Bosworth & Toller, and of JR Clark Hall:
        http://www.ling.upenn.edu/~kurisuto/germanic/language_resources.html

        Bosworth & Toller "An Anglo-Saxon Dictionary"--under construction
        http://dontgohere.nu/oe/as-bt/
        http://bosworthandtoller.co.uk
        http://bosworthandtoller.com


        Gerhard Koebler has an Old English dictionary here too:
        http://www.koeblergerhard.de/publikat.html


        Online book: "(The Electronic) Introduction to Old English" by Peter
        S Barker
        http://www.wmich.edu/medieval/research/rawl/IOE/


        Hope that's of use,

        Llama Nom





        --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "Fredrik" wrote:
        >
        > Hi!
        >
        > Here's some questions.
        >
        > 1) A word for 'key' seems to be lacking. The swedish word nyckel
        from
        > older lykil comes from *lukila- and is a form av lukan = shut,
        with a
        > instrumentalsuffix. Is there any form like this in gothic?
        >
        > 2) Can some one recomend any site with old english grammar, coz I
        > wanna now which gender some OE words have.
        >
        > /fredrik






        You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a blank email to .
        Yahoo! Groups Links









        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • llama_nom
        ... goths.... Hi Oscar, chosen ( kusanata is the past participle of the verb kiusan to chose + neuter nominative/accusative ending -ata.) optatum potita
        Message 3 of 18 , Feb 16, 2005
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          --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, OSCAR HERRERA <duke.co@s...> wrote:
          > w
          > hwa ist gaskieran faur kusanata....ik funth in jordanes on the
          goths....


          Hi Oscar,

          "chosen" ('kusanata' is the past participle of the verb 'kiusan' "to
          chose" + neuter nominative/accusative ending -ata.)

          optatum potita solum

          Yeat: "took possession of the desired land"
          http://www.harbornet.com/folks/theedrich/Goths/Goths1.htm

          Mierow: "came into possession of the desired land"
          http://www.acs.ucalgary.ca/~vandersp/Courses/texts/jordgeti.html

          By "jordanes on the goths" I take it you're referring to a
          translation into Gothic by members of this group from the original
          Latin:

          http://www.stormloader.com/carver/gutrazda/jordanes.html


          For some reason I must have missed this, or forgotten about it. I
          probably saw it years ago, but didn't know enough about Gothic at
          that time to appreciate it. It does look quite convincing: I'm
          impressed! One criticism: I don't think the enclitic -uh can be
          attached to nouns to mean "and", only to verbs and verbal prefixes.
          It can attach to anything to give the senses "now" or "incidentally"-
          -usually in the combination -uh þan / -uþ-þan. Here's some notes
          summarising my current (far from perfect) understanding of this
          particle:

          http://www.oe.eclipse.co.uk/nom/uh.htm



          If anyone's interested, here's my attempt at the same passage
          (though I didn't get quite as far), done a couple of months ago,
          with the help of all the fantastic Gothic resources now available on
          the internet:


          Us hulma þammei Skandjai haitada, swe us þiudo smiþjon, aiþþau swe
          raihtis us kunje kilþein, swah miþ þiudana seinamma, namin haitans
          Bairika, gutans usiddjedun. Sunsei ana airþai usiddjedun, þana staþ
          afar seinamma namin haihaitun. Jah und hina dag, swa qiþada,
          Gutiskandja haitada.

          Þaþroh suns atiddjedun du Hulmarugje stadim, þaiei þan wiþra mareins
          bauaidedun. Bibaurgein waurhtedun jah þans usdribun us ize
          gabaurþai, Wandalans jah ubuhhnaiwidedun swaei sis biaiaikun sigisa.

          Iþ þan þiuda ufarassau managnoda. Jah þiudans warþ Filumers
          Gadareikis sunus, saei fimfta was afar Bairikan, sah garuni nam jah
          baþ ei gutane harjis usiddjedeina miþ ize ingardam ut us þamma gawja.
          Atuh þan gatilos bauainins sokjandam jah andanemjos, qemun at Skyþe
          landam, þoei haitam "ana Aujom", jah faginodedun in gabeins þis
          landis. Jah at harjis halba ufarliþanai, brugja dishnupnoda, þoei
          ufarlaiþ, jah þanamais ni maht was galeiþan nih aftra qiman. Unte sa
          staþs saiwim jah reirandam fanjam bisatiþs was iþ bisunjane
          afgrundiþa. Jah und hina dag auhsne razdos gahausjan mahtos sind jah
          manne bigitan laistins, in þizai ferai, jabai du farane spilla
          galaubjam, sweþauh swaleik þatainei gaumiþ sijai fairraþro.


          NOTES:

          I think the reconstructed *Skadinaujo in the old version might be
          better than my Skandja lifted from the Latin, although I suppose the
          identity of the Gothic homeland is still debated of course, and
          according to one theory the identification with Scandinavia may be a
          learned notion not derived from genuine Gothic myth.

          *Bairika I took from Thedrich Yeat's translation, as this gives a
          possible meaning 'little bear'.

          Skyþj- / Skwþj- is just a spelling difference.

          "ana Aujom" I treated it like names where the preposition and dative
          are conventionally fixed as part of the name, as sometimes happens
          in OE and ON, since the Latin form seems to have taken over the
          dative ending from Gothic.

          There are a lot of differences, but probably most are equally valid,
          e.g. qiþada, merjada.

          Llama Nom
        • ?????? ????????
          ***** Hi Llama Nom! If is treated as the dative, what could be the nominative? Accordingly, may be considered, in your opinion, Finnish ditch,
          Message 4 of 18 , Feb 16, 2005
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            *****

            Hi Llama Nom!

            If <Aujom> is treated as the dative, what could be the nominative?
            Accordingly, may be considered, in your opinion,
            Finnish <oja> "ditch, drain" as a possible origin
            of this mysterious toponym?

            Vladimir






            -----Original Message-----
            From: llama_nom [mailto:600cell@...]
            Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 7:48 PM
            To: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [gothic-l] Re: kusanata (Jordanes in Gothic)




            ...
            "ana Aujom" I treated it like names where the preposition and dative
            are conventionally fixed as part of the name, as sometimes happens
            in OE and ON, since the Latin form seems to have taken over the
            dative ending from Gothic.
            ...

            Llama Nom






            You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a blank email to <gothic-l-unsubscribe@egroups.com>.
            Yahoo! Groups Links
          • llama_nom
            Hi Vladimir, That s interesting. The nominative singular of Gothic *aujom (dat.pl.) would be *auja (feminine jo-stem). The actualy form in Jordanes is
            Message 5 of 18 , Feb 17, 2005
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              Hi Vladimir,

              That's interesting. The nominative singular of Gothic *aujom
              (dat.pl.) would be *auja (feminine jo-stem). The actualy form in
              Jordanes is Oium/Ojum. Germanic cognates include:

              OIc. ey
              OFris. ey
              Langobardic *auja
              OE ieg (survives in MnE island, with spelling influenced by the
              unrelated French isle)

              Under island the Oxford English dictionary comments: "1. a. A piece
              of land completely surrounded by water. Formerly used less
              definitely, including a peninsula, or a place insulated at high
              water or during floods, or begirt by marshes, a usage which survives
              in particular instances..." (e.g. certain place names.)

              (And related, German Au(e) < OHG ouwa.)

              I'm completely ignorant of the history of Finnish, so I don't know
              if changes in Finnish alone can account for the form given, but in
              Germanic this word would be *aujo > Proto Norse *auju.

              Llama Nom





              --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "?????? ????????" <vegorov@i...>
              wrote:
              > *****
              >
              > Hi Llama Nom!
              >
              > If <Aujom> is treated as the dative, what could be the nominative?
              > Accordingly, may be considered, in your opinion,
              > Finnish <oja> "ditch, drain" as a possible origin
              > of this mysterious toponym?
              >
              > Vladimir
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > -----Original Message-----
              > From: llama_nom [mailto:600cell@o...]
              > Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 7:48 PM
              > To: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com
              > Subject: [gothic-l] Re: kusanata (Jordanes in Gothic)
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > ...
              > "ana Aujom" I treated it like names where the preposition and
              dative
              > are conventionally fixed as part of the name, as sometimes happens
              > in OE and ON, since the Latin form seems to have taken over the
              > dative ending from Gothic.
              > ...
              >
              > Llama Nom
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a
              blank email to <gothic-l-unsubscribe@egroups.com>.
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
            • faltin2001
              ... See also modern German Eiland = Insel = island. However, I thought that Jordanes Oium is linked with modern German Heim, i.e. home. Cheers Dirk
              Message 6 of 18 , Feb 24, 2005
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                --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <600cell@o...> wrote:
                >
                >
                > Hi Vladimir,
                >
                > That's interesting. The nominative singular of Gothic *aujom
                > (dat.pl.) would be *auja (feminine jo-stem). The actualy form in
                > Jordanes is Oium/Ojum. Germanic cognates include:
                >
                > OIc. ey
                > OFris. ey
                > Langobardic *auja
                > OE ieg (survives in MnE island, with spelling influenced by the
                > unrelated French isle)




                See also modern German Eiland = Insel = island.

                However, I thought that Jordanes' Oium is linked with modern German
                Heim, i.e. home.


                Cheers
                Dirk
              • llama_nom
                ... German ... Hi Dirk, Maybe, but I gather Latin writers usually render Gothic in personal names as or , or sometimes (Dagalaiphus, Gaina,
                Message 7 of 18 , Feb 24, 2005
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                  --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "faltin2001" <dirk@s...> wrote:

                  > However, I thought that Jordanes' Oium is linked with modern
                  German
                  > Heim, i.e. home.


                  Hi Dirk,

                  Maybe, but I gather Latin writers usually render Gothic <ai> in
                  personal names as <ai> or <ei>, or sometimes <e> (Dagalaiphus,
                  Gaina, Radagaisus, Vajasindus; Gisaleicus; Gesila, Gesimundus;
                  also 'eils' in De Conviviis Barbaris).

                  But <auj> tends to appear as <oi> in Latin, e.g. names beginning
                  Froi-, Froj- = Go. Frauj-.

                  Examples from Braune/Helm "Gotische Grammatik", and Koebler's Anhang
                  3 Wörterbuch der gotischen Namen:

                  http://www.koeblergerhard.de/gotwbhin.html

                  Llama Nom
                • Manie Lombard
                  Hails But does not auja mean luck ? Manie ... From: llama_nom To: Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2005
                  Message 8 of 18 , Feb 24, 2005
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                    Hails

                    But does not auja mean "luck"?

                    Manie

                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: "llama_nom" <600cell@...>
                    To: <gothic-l@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2005 7:25 PM
                    Subject: [gothic-l] Re: kusanata (Jordanes in Gothic)


                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Hi Vladimir,
                    >
                    > That's interesting. The nominative singular of Gothic *aujom
                    > (dat.pl.) would be *auja (feminine jo-stem). The actualy form in
                    > Jordanes is Oium/Ojum. Germanic cognates include:
                    >
                    > OIc. ey
                    > OFris. ey
                    > Langobardic *auja
                    > OE ieg (survives in MnE island, with spelling influenced by the
                    > unrelated French isle)
                    >
                    > Under island the Oxford English dictionary comments: "1. a. A piece
                    > of land completely surrounded by water. Formerly used less
                    > definitely, including a peninsula, or a place insulated at high
                    > water or during floods, or begirt by marshes, a usage which survives
                    > in particular instances..." (e.g. certain place names.)
                    >
                    > (And related, German Au(e) < OHG ouwa.)
                    >
                    > I'm completely ignorant of the history of Finnish, so I don't know
                    > if changes in Finnish alone can account for the form given, but in
                    > Germanic this word would be *aujo > Proto Norse *auju.
                    >
                    > Llama Nom
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "?????? ????????" <vegorov@i...>
                    > wrote:
                    >> *****
                    >>
                    >> Hi Llama Nom!
                    >>
                    >> If <Aujom> is treated as the dative, what could be the nominative?
                    >> Accordingly, may be considered, in your opinion,
                    >> Finnish <oja> "ditch, drain" as a possible origin
                    >> of this mysterious toponym?
                    >>
                    >> Vladimir
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >> -----Original Message-----
                    >> From: llama_nom [mailto:600cell@o...]
                    >> Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 7:48 PM
                    >> To: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com
                    >> Subject: [gothic-l] Re: kusanata (Jordanes in Gothic)
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >> ...
                    >> "ana Aujom" I treated it like names where the preposition and
                    > dative
                    >> are conventionally fixed as part of the name, as sometimes happens
                    >> in OE and ON, since the Latin form seems to have taken over the
                    >> dative ending from Gothic.
                    >> ...
                    >>
                    >> Llama Nom
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >> You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a
                    > blank email to <gothic-l-unsubscribe@egroups.com>.
                    >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a blank email
                    > to <gothic-l-unsubscribe@egroups.com>.
                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                  • llama_nom
                    Hails Manie, First, a correction to something I wrote: The word meaning water meadow, land liable to flooding, island, etc. , jo-stem, feminine, would
                    Message 9 of 18 , Feb 24, 2005
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                      Hails Manie,

                      First, a correction to something I wrote: The word meaning "water
                      meadow, land liable to flooding, island, etc.", jo-stem, feminine,
                      would actually give Gothic *AWI in the nominative singular, declined
                      like 'mawi' (acc.sg. *auja, etc.).

                      I think the word meaning "luck" is cited in the form AUJA by Koebler
                      because one of the early Scandinavian runic inscriptions which
                      contains it has been considered East Germanic. But the grounds for
                      such attributions I gather is often quite tenuous.

                      The regular Gothic form corresponding to Proto Norse AUJA would be
                      *AWI as well, neuter ja-stem, declined like 'hawi'.

                      Llama Nom



                      --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "Manie Lombard" <manielombard@c...>
                      wrote:
                      > Hails
                      >
                      > But does not auja mean "luck"?
                      >
                      > Manie
                      >
                      > ----- Original Message -----
                      > From: "llama_nom" <600cell@o...>
                      > To: <gothic-l@yahoogroups.com>
                      > Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2005 7:25 PM
                      > Subject: [gothic-l] Re: kusanata (Jordanes in Gothic)
                      >
                      >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Hi Vladimir,
                      > >
                      > > That's interesting. The nominative singular of Gothic *aujom
                      > > (dat.pl.) would be *auja (feminine jo-stem). The actualy form in
                      > > Jordanes is Oium/Ojum. Germanic cognates include:
                      > >
                      > > OIc. ey
                      > > OFris. ey
                      > > Langobardic *auja
                      > > OE ieg (survives in MnE island, with spelling influenced by the
                      > > unrelated French isle)
                      > >
                      > > Under island the Oxford English dictionary comments: "1. a. A
                      piece
                      > > of land completely surrounded by water. Formerly used less
                      > > definitely, including a peninsula, or a place insulated at high
                      > > water or during floods, or begirt by marshes, a usage which
                      survives
                      > > in particular instances..." (e.g. certain place names.)
                      > >
                      > > (And related, German Au(e) < OHG ouwa.)
                      > >
                      > > I'm completely ignorant of the history of Finnish, so I don't
                      know
                      > > if changes in Finnish alone can account for the form given, but
                      in
                      > > Germanic this word would be *aujo > Proto Norse *auju.
                      > >
                      > > Llama Nom
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "?????? ????????" <vegorov@i...>
                      > > wrote:
                      > >> *****
                      > >>
                      > >> Hi Llama Nom!
                      > >>
                      > >> If <Aujom> is treated as the dative, what could be the
                      nominative?
                      > >> Accordingly, may be considered, in your opinion,
                      > >> Finnish <oja> "ditch, drain" as a possible origin
                      > >> of this mysterious toponym?
                      > >>
                      > >> Vladimir
                      > >>
                      > >>
                      > >>
                      > >>
                      > >>
                      > >>
                      > >> -----Original Message-----
                      > >> From: llama_nom [mailto:600cell@o...]
                      > >> Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 7:48 PM
                      > >> To: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com
                      > >> Subject: [gothic-l] Re: kusanata (Jordanes in Gothic)
                      > >>
                      > >>
                      > >>
                      > >>
                      > >> ...
                      > >> "ana Aujom" I treated it like names where the preposition and
                      > > dative
                      > >> are conventionally fixed as part of the name, as sometimes
                      happens
                      > >> in OE and ON, since the Latin form seems to have taken over the
                      > >> dative ending from Gothic.
                      > >> ...
                      > >>
                      > >> Llama Nom
                      > >>
                      > >>
                      > >>
                      > >>
                      > >>
                      > >>
                      > >> You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a
                      > > blank email to <gothic-l-unsubscribe@egroups.com>.
                      > >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a
                      blank email
                      > > to <gothic-l-unsubscribe@egroups.com>.
                      > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                    • llama_nom
                      In which case: Go. *Skadinawi = OE scedenig = OIc. Skáney = Skaane, if this contains the island word, in its broader sense of land only partly surrounded by
                      Message 10 of 18 , Feb 25, 2005
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                        In which case: Go. *Skadinawi = OE scedenig = OIc. Skáney = Skaane,
                        if this contains the "island" word, in its broader sense of land
                        only partly surrounded by water.

                        LN



                        --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <600cell@o...> wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        > Hails Manie,
                        >
                        > First, a correction to something I wrote: The word meaning "water
                        > meadow, land liable to flooding, island, etc.", jo-stem, feminine,
                        > would actually give Gothic *AWI in the nominative singular,
                        declined
                        > like 'mawi' (acc.sg. *auja, etc.).
                        >
                        > I think the word meaning "luck" is cited in the form AUJA by
                        Koebler
                        > because one of the early Scandinavian runic inscriptions which
                        > contains it has been considered East Germanic. But the grounds
                        for
                        > such attributions I gather is often quite tenuous.
                        >
                        > The regular Gothic form corresponding to Proto Norse AUJA would be
                        > *AWI as well, neuter ja-stem, declined like 'hawi'.
                        >
                        > Llama Nom
                      • faltin2001
                        ... Anhang ... Hi Llama Nom, that is interesting. I only cited the supposed link with m.Germ. Heim, because it is mentioned in H. Wolfram s book (I think).
                        Message 11 of 18 , Feb 25, 2005
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                          --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <600cell@o...> wrote:
                          >
                          > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "faltin2001" <dirk@s...> wrote:
                          >
                          > > However, I thought that Jordanes' Oium is linked with modern
                          > German
                          > > Heim, i.e. home.
                          >
                          >
                          > Hi Dirk,
                          >
                          > Maybe, but I gather Latin writers usually render Gothic <ai> in
                          > personal names as <ai> or <ei>, or sometimes <e> (Dagalaiphus,
                          > Gaina, Radagaisus, Vajasindus; Gisaleicus; Gesila, Gesimundus;
                          > also 'eils' in De Conviviis Barbaris).
                          >
                          > But <auj> tends to appear as <oi> in Latin, e.g. names beginning
                          > Froi-, Froj- = Go. Frauj-.
                          >
                          > Examples from Braune/Helm "Gotische Grammatik", and Koebler's
                          Anhang
                          > 3 Wörterbuch der gotischen Namen:
                          >
                          > http://www.koeblergerhard.de/gotwbhin.html
                          >
                          > Llama Nom



                          Hi Llama Nom,

                          that is interesting. I only cited the supposed link with m.Germ.
                          Heim, because it is mentioned in H. Wolfram's book (I think).

                          Cheers
                          Dirk
                        • OSCAR HERRERA
                          what is goth for then or than....the dictionary says thau,i think ,however im not sure....hwa ist gutiska faur then aithau than...tho boko qaths thau,ik
                          Message 12 of 18 , Feb 25, 2005
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                            what is goth for then or than....the dictionary says thau,i think ,however im not sure....hwa ist gutiska faur then aithau than...tho boko qaths thau,ik thigk,auk ik im ni hails....oscar herrera

                            llama_nom <600cell@...> wrote:


                            In which case: Go. *Skadinawi = OE scedenig = OIc. Sk�ney = Skaane,
                            if this contains the "island" word, in its broader sense of land
                            only partly surrounded by water.

                            LN



                            --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <600cell@o...> wrote:
                            >
                            >
                            > Hails Manie,
                            >
                            > First, a correction to something I wrote: The word meaning "water
                            > meadow, land liable to flooding, island, etc.", jo-stem, feminine,
                            > would actually give Gothic *AWI in the nominative singular,
                            declined
                            > like 'mawi' (acc.sg. *auja, etc.).
                            >
                            > I think the word meaning "luck" is cited in the form AUJA by
                            Koebler
                            > because one of the early Scandinavian runic inscriptions which
                            > contains it has been considered East Germanic. But the grounds
                            for
                            > such attributions I gather is often quite tenuous.
                            >
                            > The regular Gothic form corresponding to Proto Norse AUJA would be
                            > *AWI as well, neuter ja-stem, declined like 'hawi'.
                            >
                            > Llama Nom







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                          • Сергей Черныш
                            Hello I would like to draw your attention to limestone slab with runic inscription (http://mogilnik.narod.ru/Stella.htm). It was found by South-Bosporian
                            Message 13 of 18 , Feb 27, 2005
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                              Hello
                              I would like to draw your attention to limestone slab with runic inscription (http://mogilnik.narod.ru/Stella.htm). It was found by South-Bosporian expedition of the Crimean branch of Institute of archeology National Academy of Science of Ukraine on mountain Opuk in Kerch region (look at the map). Here ancient authors mentioned the city of Kimmerik. In 4 AD on mountain the citadel has been constructed when Uzunlar wall becomes a border between Chersonese and Bosporus. The Citadel survived up to 6 century AD.
                              The size of a plate 0,62 х 0,49 х 0,20 m. Height of signs of 0,15 m, relief depth - 0,005-0,009 m (cut out was a background, so cross and signs are elevated).
                              Publicators interpreted inscription as a herulic and descended from local pagan sanctuary ( VK Golenko, VJ Yurochkin, OA Sin'ko, AV Djanov - Runicheskij kamen' s gory Opuk i nekotoryje problemy istorii severoprichernomorskich germanzev ( Runic stone from Opuk mountain and some questions of history of germans on North coast of Black sea ) . In: Drevnosti Bospora 2. (Antiquities of Bospor)
                              Their interpretation is disputable enough. Some of specialists considered authenticity of this find as doubtful.
                              It would be interesting to know your opinion.
                            • Troels Brandt
                              ... inscription (http://mogilnik.narod.ru/Stella.htm). It was found by South-Bosporian expedition of the Crimean branch of Institute of archeology National
                              Message 14 of 18 , Mar 7, 2005
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                                --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, óÅÒÇÅÊ þÅÒÎÙÛ <authari@m...> wrote:
                                >
                                >
                                > Hello
                                > I would like to draw your attention to limestone slab with runic
                                inscription (http://mogilnik.narod.ru/Stella.htm). It was found by
                                South-Bosporian expedition of the Crimean branch of Institute of
                                archeology National Academy of Science of Ukraine on mountain Opuk in
                                Kerch region (look at the map). Here ancient authors mentioned the
                                city of Kimmerik. In 4 AD on mountain the citadel has been
                                constructed when Uzunlar wall becomes a border between Chersonese and
                                Bosporus. The Citadel survived up to 6 century AD.
                                > The size of a plate 0,62 È 0,49 È 0,20 m. Height of signs of 0,15
                                m, relief depth - 0,005-0,009 m (cut out was a background, so cross
                                and signs are elevated).
                                > Publicators interpreted inscription as a herulic and descended from
                                local pagan sanctuary ( VK Golenko, VJ Yurochkin, OA Sin'ko, AV
                                Djanov - Runicheskij kamen' s gory Opuk i nekotoryje problemy
                                istorii severoprichernomorskich germanzev ( Runic stone from Opuk
                                mountain and some questions of history of germans on North coast of
                                Black sea ) . In: Drevnosti Bospora 2. (Antiquities of Bospor)
                                > Their interpretation is disputable enough. Some of specialists
                                considered authenticity of this find as doubtful.
                                > It would be interesting to know your opinion.



                                I guess you among other possibilities are searching for Scandinavian
                                traces as you mentioned the Heruls.

                                I am not the right to answer and llama has answered the linquistc
                                part. I can only add the theoretical possibility that the runes
                                represented their symbolic Norse names: Thurs (troll), Pertra (maybe
                                stone), Reid (riding) and As (Ansuz, god), but I doubt - especiallly
                                as the T is reverse, which might indicate a forgery or missing
                                knowledge of runes. A relief was an unusal way to carve runes - and
                                most of the early runes were not carved in stone at all, but I think
                                that depends of local practice.

                                The Scandinavian wheel crosses normally belonged to the Bronce Ages
                                and were at the later bracteats normally replaced by the swastica,
                                but a wheel cross was placed at one of the boats from the Baltic Sea
                                found in Nydam - contemporary with the dating of your stone if 4 AD
                                is the 4th century.

                                Primarily I am interested to hear why this stone is combined with the
                                Heruls - except for the runes of course. Is there any specific reason
                                for that?

                                Troels
                              • llama_nom
                                ... Far from it: I haven´t answered anything, only suggested some more questions! I just tried to give a summary of what sort of inscriptions have been found
                                Message 15 of 18 , Mar 7, 2005
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                                  --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "Troels Brandt" <trbrandt@p...>
                                  wrote:

                                  > I am not the right to answer and llama has answered the linquistc
                                  > part.


                                  Far from it: I haven´t answered anything, only suggested some more
                                  questions! I just tried to give a summary of what sort of
                                  inscriptions have been found so far that are attributed to East
                                  Germanic peoples such as the Goths and Heruls. Anything else is
                                  pure speculation on my part.

                                  Troels mentions the idea of runes used as ideographs, standing for
                                  the concept represented by the name of the rune
                                  (called "Begriffsrunen" in German, "begrepsruner" in Norwegian,
                                  which term is sometimes translated "concept runes" in English).
                                  That´s something I hadn´t thought of, but an interesting possibility
                                  to consider. The technique is probably used in some Scandinavian
                                  inscriptions predating the Viking Age (e.g. Stentoften & Gummarp),
                                  and it is attested somewhat later in Anglo-Saxon manuscripts, but
                                  there are many inscriptions where the use of concept runes is
                                  disputed, or impossible to prove. There is one widely accepted
                                  example of a concept rune in an inscription considered to be Gothic:
                                  the Pietroassa ring, found in Romania. Here, as at Stentoften, the
                                  ideograph as part of a text which otherwise is spelt out in full--
                                  rather than a series of initials.

                                  Here is a quote from JH Looijenga's book "Runes Around the North
                                  Sea...", she is talking about finds from before the Viking period:

                                  "Personally I have difficulties determining when and if an
                                  ideographic rune (or Begriffsrune) was used, since the runewriters'
                                  criteria for using them are unknown to us. There is at least
                                  one clear instance of the use of an ideographic rune: the single j
                                  rune on the Stentoften stone, representing its name *jara
                                  meaning `good year' = harvest. The peculiar use of this ideograph
                                  is further emphasized by the fact that it was carved in an archaic
                                  fashion. The h in Thorsberg aisgzh may or may not be such a
                                  Begriffsrune, there is no graphic peculiarity (h has no
                                  archaic forerunner), but, in Antonsen's interpretation, it could
                                  symbolize its name on syntactic grounds. In some other cases,
                                  isolated runes may be read as abbreviations, such as the r in the
                                  Sievern bracteate, which apparently denotes r[unoz]. Single runes
                                  may have been read as abbreviations in the oldest inscriptions, and
                                  may later on have come to represent the symbolic meaning of the
                                  rune's name."

                                  http://www.ub.rug.nl/eldoc/dis/arts/j.h.looijenga/


                                  Needless to say, with a whole series of abbreviations, it would be
                                  very hard to narrow down the possible interpretations. If they
                                  stood for the concepts embodied in the rune names, it's easy to
                                  think up symbolic interpretations, but hard if not impossible to
                                  test them.

                                  Llama Nom
                                • Troels Brandt
                                  I agree in your comments below. It was the connection Kerch - Goths - Romenia - Pietroassa - Reicherts J -rune (discussed as at Stentoften) which made me
                                  Message 16 of 18 , Mar 8, 2005
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                                    I agree in your comments below. It was the connection Kerch - Goths -
                                    Romenia - Pietroassa - Reicherts "J"-rune (discussed as at
                                    Stentoften) which made me suggest this theoretical possibility.

                                    Troels

                                    --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <600cell@o...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "Troels Brandt" <trbrandt@p...>
                                    > wrote:
                                    >
                                    > > I am not the right to answer and llama has answered the linquistc
                                    > > part.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Far from it: I haven´t answered anything, only suggested some more
                                    > questions! I just tried to give a summary of what sort of
                                    > inscriptions have been found so far that are attributed to East
                                    > Germanic peoples such as the Goths and Heruls. Anything else is
                                    > pure speculation on my part.
                                    >
                                    > Troels mentions the idea of runes used as ideographs, standing for
                                    > the concept represented by the name of the rune
                                    > (called "Begriffsrunen" in German, "begrepsruner" in Norwegian,
                                    > which term is sometimes translated "concept runes" in English).
                                    > That´s something I hadn´t thought of, but an interesting
                                    possibility
                                    > to consider. The technique is probably used in some Scandinavian
                                    > inscriptions predating the Viking Age (e.g. Stentoften & Gummarp),
                                    > and it is attested somewhat later in Anglo-Saxon manuscripts, but
                                    > there are many inscriptions where the use of concept runes is
                                    > disputed, or impossible to prove. There is one widely accepted
                                    > example of a concept rune in an inscription considered to be
                                    Gothic:
                                    > the Pietroassa ring, found in Romania. Here, as at Stentoften, the
                                    > ideograph as part of a text which otherwise is spelt out in full--
                                    > rather than a series of initials.
                                    >
                                    > Here is a quote from JH Looijenga's book "Runes Around the North
                                    > Sea...", she is talking about finds from before the Viking period:
                                    >
                                    > "Personally I have difficulties determining when and if an
                                    > ideographic rune (or Begriffsrune) was used, since the runewriters'
                                    > criteria for using them are unknown to us. There is at least
                                    > one clear instance of the use of an ideographic rune: the single j
                                    > rune on the Stentoften stone, representing its name *jara
                                    > meaning `good year' = harvest. The peculiar use of this ideograph
                                    > is further emphasized by the fact that it was carved in an archaic
                                    > fashion. The h in Thorsberg aisgzh may or may not be such a
                                    > Begriffsrune, there is no graphic peculiarity (h has no
                                    > archaic forerunner), but, in Antonsen's interpretation, it could
                                    > symbolize its name on syntactic grounds. In some other cases,
                                    > isolated runes may be read as abbreviations, such as the r in the
                                    > Sievern bracteate, which apparently denotes r[unoz]. Single runes
                                    > may have been read as abbreviations in the oldest inscriptions, and
                                    > may later on have come to represent the symbolic meaning of the
                                    > rune's name."
                                    >
                                    > http://www.ub.rug.nl/eldoc/dis/arts/j.h.looijenga/
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Needless to say, with a whole series of abbreviations, it would be
                                    > very hard to narrow down the possible interpretations. If they
                                    > stood for the concepts embodied in the rune names, it's easy to
                                    > think up symbolic interpretations, but hard if not impossible to
                                    > test them.
                                    >
                                    > Llama Nom
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