Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: some questions...

Expand Messages
  • Francisc Czobor
    Hi, Fredrik, in Gothic there is a verb lukan to shut , attested only in the prefixed forms ga-lukan and us-lukan. But a derivative *lukila- is not attested,
    Message 1 of 18 , Feb 15, 2005
    • 0 Attachment
      Hi, Fredrik,

      in Gothic there is a verb lukan "to shut", attested only in the
      prefixed forms ga-lukan and us-lukan. But a derivative *lukila- is
      not attested, as far as I know (it doesn't appear in Koebler).

      Francisc

      --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "Fredrik" <gadrauhts@h...> wrote:
      >
      > Hi!
      >
      > Here's some questions.
      >
      > 1) A word for 'key' seems to be lacking. The swedish word nyckel
      from
      > older lykil comes from *lukila- and is a form av lukan = shut, with
      a
      > instrumentalsuffix. Is there any form like this in gothic?
      >
      > 2) Can some one recomend any site with old english grammar, coz I
      > wanna now which gender some OE words have.
      >
      > /fredrik
    • llama_nom
      Hails Fredrik, Yes, unfortunately we re missing Mat 16,19 and Luke 11,52. There would have been a few keys in Revelations too. Who knows, maybe more Gothic
      Message 2 of 18 , Feb 15, 2005
      • 0 Attachment
        Hails Fredrik,

        Yes, unfortunately we're missing Mat 16,19 and Luke 11,52. There
        would have been a few keys in Revelations too. Who knows, maybe
        more Gothic manuscripts will come to light one day. In the
        meantime, I think your idea is the most likely guess.
        Icelandic 'lykill' suggests a Gothic *lukils, masculine a-stem.

        Attested is the presumed neuter noun USLUK "hole, opening". Koebler
        has it with a short vowel, like German 'Loch'. And the following
        verbs, of which uslukan & galukan have a long vowel in the
        infinitive (strong class 2), and usluknan & galuknan have a short
        root vowel:


        uslukan +acc. "open something" +dat. "for someone"

        also +acc. "draw" a sword

        absolute sense "to open up, open the door/gate" +dat. "for s-one"
        þammuh daurawards uslukiþ "for him the watchman opens up"



        galukan +acc. in +dat. "lock/shut someone in a place or state"
        galauk Iohannen in karkarai "he locked John in prison"

        +dat. or +acc. for doors
        galukands haurdai þeinai "shutting your door"
        ei guþ uslukai unsis haurd waurdis "so that God may open a door of
        speech for us"


        usluknan "be unlocked/opened"

        galuknan "be closed, be locked"

        _________________________________________

        Old English links:

        Old English Made Easy (including two-way OE-MnE, MnE-OE dictionary)
        http://home.comcast.net/~modean52


        Anglo-Saxon dictionaries of Bosworth & Toller, and of JR Clark Hall:
        http://www.ling.upenn.edu/~kurisuto/germanic/language_resources.html

        Bosworth & Toller "An Anglo-Saxon Dictionary"--under construction
        http://dontgohere.nu/oe/as-bt/
        http://bosworthandtoller.co.uk
        http://bosworthandtoller.com


        Gerhard Koebler has an Old English dictionary here too:
        http://www.koeblergerhard.de/publikat.html


        Online book: "(The Electronic) Introduction to Old English" by Peter
        S Barker
        http://www.wmich.edu/medieval/research/rawl/IOE/


        Hope that's of use,

        Llama Nom





        --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "Fredrik" <gadrauhts@h...> wrote:
        >
        > Hi!
        >
        > Here's some questions.
        >
        > 1) A word for 'key' seems to be lacking. The swedish word nyckel
        from
        > older lykil comes from *lukila- and is a form av lukan = shut,
        with a
        > instrumentalsuffix. Is there any form like this in gothic?
        >
        > 2) Can some one recomend any site with old english grammar, coz I
        > wanna now which gender some OE words have.
        >
        > /fredrik
      • OSCAR HERRERA
        w hwa ist gaskieran faur kusanata....ik funth in jordanes on the goths.... llama_nom wrote: Hails Fredrik, Yes, unfortunately we re
        Message 3 of 18 , Feb 15, 2005
        • 0 Attachment
          w
          hwa ist gaskieran faur kusanata....ik funth in jordanes on the goths....

          llama_nom <600cell@...> wrote:



          Hails Fredrik,

          Yes, unfortunately we're missing Mat 16,19 and Luke 11,52. There
          would have been a few keys in Revelations too. Who knows, maybe
          more Gothic manuscripts will come to light one day. In the
          meantime, I think your idea is the most likely guess.
          Icelandic 'lykill' suggests a Gothic *lukils, masculine a-stem.

          Attested is the presumed neuter noun USLUK "hole, opening". Koebler
          has it with a short vowel, like German 'Loch'. And the following
          verbs, of which uslukan & galukan have a long vowel in the
          infinitive (strong class 2), and usluknan & galuknan have a short
          root vowel:


          uslukan +acc. "open something" +dat. "for someone"

          also +acc. "draw" a sword

          absolute sense "to open up, open the door/gate" +dat. "for s-one"
          �ammuh daurawards usluki� "for him the watchman opens up"



          galukan +acc. in +dat. "lock/shut someone in a place or state"
          galauk Iohannen in karkarai "he locked John in prison"

          +dat. or +acc. for doors
          galukands haurdai �einai "shutting your door"
          ei gu� uslukai unsis haurd waurdis "so that God may open a door of
          speech for us"


          usluknan "be unlocked/opened"

          galuknan "be closed, be locked"

          _________________________________________

          Old English links:

          Old English Made Easy (including two-way OE-MnE, MnE-OE dictionary)
          http://home.comcast.net/~modean52


          Anglo-Saxon dictionaries of Bosworth & Toller, and of JR Clark Hall:
          http://www.ling.upenn.edu/~kurisuto/germanic/language_resources.html

          Bosworth & Toller "An Anglo-Saxon Dictionary"--under construction
          http://dontgohere.nu/oe/as-bt/
          http://bosworthandtoller.co.uk
          http://bosworthandtoller.com


          Gerhard Koebler has an Old English dictionary here too:
          http://www.koeblergerhard.de/publikat.html


          Online book: "(The Electronic) Introduction to Old English" by Peter
          S Barker
          http://www.wmich.edu/medieval/research/rawl/IOE/


          Hope that's of use,

          Llama Nom





          --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "Fredrik" wrote:
          >
          > Hi!
          >
          > Here's some questions.
          >
          > 1) A word for 'key' seems to be lacking. The swedish word nyckel
          from
          > older lykil comes from *lukila- and is a form av lukan = shut,
          with a
          > instrumentalsuffix. Is there any form like this in gothic?
          >
          > 2) Can some one recomend any site with old english grammar, coz I
          > wanna now which gender some OE words have.
          >
          > /fredrik






          You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a blank email to .
          Yahoo! Groups Links









          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • llama_nom
          ... goths.... Hi Oscar, chosen ( kusanata is the past participle of the verb kiusan to chose + neuter nominative/accusative ending -ata.) optatum potita
          Message 4 of 18 , Feb 16, 2005
          • 0 Attachment
            --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, OSCAR HERRERA <duke.co@s...> wrote:
            > w
            > hwa ist gaskieran faur kusanata....ik funth in jordanes on the
            goths....


            Hi Oscar,

            "chosen" ('kusanata' is the past participle of the verb 'kiusan' "to
            chose" + neuter nominative/accusative ending -ata.)

            optatum potita solum

            Yeat: "took possession of the desired land"
            http://www.harbornet.com/folks/theedrich/Goths/Goths1.htm

            Mierow: "came into possession of the desired land"
            http://www.acs.ucalgary.ca/~vandersp/Courses/texts/jordgeti.html

            By "jordanes on the goths" I take it you're referring to a
            translation into Gothic by members of this group from the original
            Latin:

            http://www.stormloader.com/carver/gutrazda/jordanes.html


            For some reason I must have missed this, or forgotten about it. I
            probably saw it years ago, but didn't know enough about Gothic at
            that time to appreciate it. It does look quite convincing: I'm
            impressed! One criticism: I don't think the enclitic -uh can be
            attached to nouns to mean "and", only to verbs and verbal prefixes.
            It can attach to anything to give the senses "now" or "incidentally"-
            -usually in the combination -uh þan / -uþ-þan. Here's some notes
            summarising my current (far from perfect) understanding of this
            particle:

            http://www.oe.eclipse.co.uk/nom/uh.htm



            If anyone's interested, here's my attempt at the same passage
            (though I didn't get quite as far), done a couple of months ago,
            with the help of all the fantastic Gothic resources now available on
            the internet:


            Us hulma þammei Skandjai haitada, swe us þiudo smiþjon, aiþþau swe
            raihtis us kunje kilþein, swah miþ þiudana seinamma, namin haitans
            Bairika, gutans usiddjedun. Sunsei ana airþai usiddjedun, þana staþ
            afar seinamma namin haihaitun. Jah und hina dag, swa qiþada,
            Gutiskandja haitada.

            Þaþroh suns atiddjedun du Hulmarugje stadim, þaiei þan wiþra mareins
            bauaidedun. Bibaurgein waurhtedun jah þans usdribun us ize
            gabaurþai, Wandalans jah ubuhhnaiwidedun swaei sis biaiaikun sigisa.

            Iþ þan þiuda ufarassau managnoda. Jah þiudans warþ Filumers
            Gadareikis sunus, saei fimfta was afar Bairikan, sah garuni nam jah
            baþ ei gutane harjis usiddjedeina miþ ize ingardam ut us þamma gawja.
            Atuh þan gatilos bauainins sokjandam jah andanemjos, qemun at Skyþe
            landam, þoei haitam "ana Aujom", jah faginodedun in gabeins þis
            landis. Jah at harjis halba ufarliþanai, brugja dishnupnoda, þoei
            ufarlaiþ, jah þanamais ni maht was galeiþan nih aftra qiman. Unte sa
            staþs saiwim jah reirandam fanjam bisatiþs was iþ bisunjane
            afgrundiþa. Jah und hina dag auhsne razdos gahausjan mahtos sind jah
            manne bigitan laistins, in þizai ferai, jabai du farane spilla
            galaubjam, sweþauh swaleik þatainei gaumiþ sijai fairraþro.


            NOTES:

            I think the reconstructed *Skadinaujo in the old version might be
            better than my Skandja lifted from the Latin, although I suppose the
            identity of the Gothic homeland is still debated of course, and
            according to one theory the identification with Scandinavia may be a
            learned notion not derived from genuine Gothic myth.

            *Bairika I took from Thedrich Yeat's translation, as this gives a
            possible meaning 'little bear'.

            Skyþj- / Skwþj- is just a spelling difference.

            "ana Aujom" I treated it like names where the preposition and dative
            are conventionally fixed as part of the name, as sometimes happens
            in OE and ON, since the Latin form seems to have taken over the
            dative ending from Gothic.

            There are a lot of differences, but probably most are equally valid,
            e.g. qiþada, merjada.

            Llama Nom
          • ?????? ????????
            ***** Hi Llama Nom! If is treated as the dative, what could be the nominative? Accordingly, may be considered, in your opinion, Finnish ditch,
            Message 5 of 18 , Feb 16, 2005
            • 0 Attachment
              *****

              Hi Llama Nom!

              If <Aujom> is treated as the dative, what could be the nominative?
              Accordingly, may be considered, in your opinion,
              Finnish <oja> "ditch, drain" as a possible origin
              of this mysterious toponym?

              Vladimir






              -----Original Message-----
              From: llama_nom [mailto:600cell@...]
              Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 7:48 PM
              To: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [gothic-l] Re: kusanata (Jordanes in Gothic)




              ...
              "ana Aujom" I treated it like names where the preposition and dative
              are conventionally fixed as part of the name, as sometimes happens
              in OE and ON, since the Latin form seems to have taken over the
              dative ending from Gothic.
              ...

              Llama Nom






              You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a blank email to <gothic-l-unsubscribe@egroups.com>.
              Yahoo! Groups Links
            • llama_nom
              Hi Vladimir, That s interesting. The nominative singular of Gothic *aujom (dat.pl.) would be *auja (feminine jo-stem). The actualy form in Jordanes is
              Message 6 of 18 , Feb 17, 2005
              • 0 Attachment
                Hi Vladimir,

                That's interesting. The nominative singular of Gothic *aujom
                (dat.pl.) would be *auja (feminine jo-stem). The actualy form in
                Jordanes is Oium/Ojum. Germanic cognates include:

                OIc. ey
                OFris. ey
                Langobardic *auja
                OE ieg (survives in MnE island, with spelling influenced by the
                unrelated French isle)

                Under island the Oxford English dictionary comments: "1. a. A piece
                of land completely surrounded by water. Formerly used less
                definitely, including a peninsula, or a place insulated at high
                water or during floods, or begirt by marshes, a usage which survives
                in particular instances..." (e.g. certain place names.)

                (And related, German Au(e) < OHG ouwa.)

                I'm completely ignorant of the history of Finnish, so I don't know
                if changes in Finnish alone can account for the form given, but in
                Germanic this word would be *aujo > Proto Norse *auju.

                Llama Nom





                --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "?????? ????????" <vegorov@i...>
                wrote:
                > *****
                >
                > Hi Llama Nom!
                >
                > If <Aujom> is treated as the dative, what could be the nominative?
                > Accordingly, may be considered, in your opinion,
                > Finnish <oja> "ditch, drain" as a possible origin
                > of this mysterious toponym?
                >
                > Vladimir
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > -----Original Message-----
                > From: llama_nom [mailto:600cell@o...]
                > Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 7:48 PM
                > To: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com
                > Subject: [gothic-l] Re: kusanata (Jordanes in Gothic)
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > ...
                > "ana Aujom" I treated it like names where the preposition and
                dative
                > are conventionally fixed as part of the name, as sometimes happens
                > in OE and ON, since the Latin form seems to have taken over the
                > dative ending from Gothic.
                > ...
                >
                > Llama Nom
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a
                blank email to <gothic-l-unsubscribe@egroups.com>.
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
              • faltin2001
                ... See also modern German Eiland = Insel = island. However, I thought that Jordanes Oium is linked with modern German Heim, i.e. home. Cheers Dirk
                Message 7 of 18 , Feb 24, 2005
                • 0 Attachment
                  --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <600cell@o...> wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > Hi Vladimir,
                  >
                  > That's interesting. The nominative singular of Gothic *aujom
                  > (dat.pl.) would be *auja (feminine jo-stem). The actualy form in
                  > Jordanes is Oium/Ojum. Germanic cognates include:
                  >
                  > OIc. ey
                  > OFris. ey
                  > Langobardic *auja
                  > OE ieg (survives in MnE island, with spelling influenced by the
                  > unrelated French isle)




                  See also modern German Eiland = Insel = island.

                  However, I thought that Jordanes' Oium is linked with modern German
                  Heim, i.e. home.


                  Cheers
                  Dirk
                • llama_nom
                  ... German ... Hi Dirk, Maybe, but I gather Latin writers usually render Gothic in personal names as or , or sometimes (Dagalaiphus, Gaina,
                  Message 8 of 18 , Feb 24, 2005
                  • 0 Attachment
                    --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "faltin2001" <dirk@s...> wrote:

                    > However, I thought that Jordanes' Oium is linked with modern
                    German
                    > Heim, i.e. home.


                    Hi Dirk,

                    Maybe, but I gather Latin writers usually render Gothic <ai> in
                    personal names as <ai> or <ei>, or sometimes <e> (Dagalaiphus,
                    Gaina, Radagaisus, Vajasindus; Gisaleicus; Gesila, Gesimundus;
                    also 'eils' in De Conviviis Barbaris).

                    But <auj> tends to appear as <oi> in Latin, e.g. names beginning
                    Froi-, Froj- = Go. Frauj-.

                    Examples from Braune/Helm "Gotische Grammatik", and Koebler's Anhang
                    3 Wörterbuch der gotischen Namen:

                    http://www.koeblergerhard.de/gotwbhin.html

                    Llama Nom
                  • Manie Lombard
                    Hails But does not auja mean luck ? Manie ... From: llama_nom To: Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2005
                    Message 9 of 18 , Feb 24, 2005
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Hails

                      But does not auja mean "luck"?

                      Manie

                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: "llama_nom" <600cell@...>
                      To: <gothic-l@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2005 7:25 PM
                      Subject: [gothic-l] Re: kusanata (Jordanes in Gothic)


                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Hi Vladimir,
                      >
                      > That's interesting. The nominative singular of Gothic *aujom
                      > (dat.pl.) would be *auja (feminine jo-stem). The actualy form in
                      > Jordanes is Oium/Ojum. Germanic cognates include:
                      >
                      > OIc. ey
                      > OFris. ey
                      > Langobardic *auja
                      > OE ieg (survives in MnE island, with spelling influenced by the
                      > unrelated French isle)
                      >
                      > Under island the Oxford English dictionary comments: "1. a. A piece
                      > of land completely surrounded by water. Formerly used less
                      > definitely, including a peninsula, or a place insulated at high
                      > water or during floods, or begirt by marshes, a usage which survives
                      > in particular instances..." (e.g. certain place names.)
                      >
                      > (And related, German Au(e) < OHG ouwa.)
                      >
                      > I'm completely ignorant of the history of Finnish, so I don't know
                      > if changes in Finnish alone can account for the form given, but in
                      > Germanic this word would be *aujo > Proto Norse *auju.
                      >
                      > Llama Nom
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "?????? ????????" <vegorov@i...>
                      > wrote:
                      >> *****
                      >>
                      >> Hi Llama Nom!
                      >>
                      >> If <Aujom> is treated as the dative, what could be the nominative?
                      >> Accordingly, may be considered, in your opinion,
                      >> Finnish <oja> "ditch, drain" as a possible origin
                      >> of this mysterious toponym?
                      >>
                      >> Vladimir
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >> -----Original Message-----
                      >> From: llama_nom [mailto:600cell@o...]
                      >> Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 7:48 PM
                      >> To: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com
                      >> Subject: [gothic-l] Re: kusanata (Jordanes in Gothic)
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >> ...
                      >> "ana Aujom" I treated it like names where the preposition and
                      > dative
                      >> are conventionally fixed as part of the name, as sometimes happens
                      >> in OE and ON, since the Latin form seems to have taken over the
                      >> dative ending from Gothic.
                      >> ...
                      >>
                      >> Llama Nom
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >> You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a
                      > blank email to <gothic-l-unsubscribe@egroups.com>.
                      >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a blank email
                      > to <gothic-l-unsubscribe@egroups.com>.
                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                    • llama_nom
                      Hails Manie, First, a correction to something I wrote: The word meaning water meadow, land liable to flooding, island, etc. , jo-stem, feminine, would
                      Message 10 of 18 , Feb 24, 2005
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Hails Manie,

                        First, a correction to something I wrote: The word meaning "water
                        meadow, land liable to flooding, island, etc.", jo-stem, feminine,
                        would actually give Gothic *AWI in the nominative singular, declined
                        like 'mawi' (acc.sg. *auja, etc.).

                        I think the word meaning "luck" is cited in the form AUJA by Koebler
                        because one of the early Scandinavian runic inscriptions which
                        contains it has been considered East Germanic. But the grounds for
                        such attributions I gather is often quite tenuous.

                        The regular Gothic form corresponding to Proto Norse AUJA would be
                        *AWI as well, neuter ja-stem, declined like 'hawi'.

                        Llama Nom



                        --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "Manie Lombard" <manielombard@c...>
                        wrote:
                        > Hails
                        >
                        > But does not auja mean "luck"?
                        >
                        > Manie
                        >
                        > ----- Original Message -----
                        > From: "llama_nom" <600cell@o...>
                        > To: <gothic-l@yahoogroups.com>
                        > Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2005 7:25 PM
                        > Subject: [gothic-l] Re: kusanata (Jordanes in Gothic)
                        >
                        >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Hi Vladimir,
                        > >
                        > > That's interesting. The nominative singular of Gothic *aujom
                        > > (dat.pl.) would be *auja (feminine jo-stem). The actualy form in
                        > > Jordanes is Oium/Ojum. Germanic cognates include:
                        > >
                        > > OIc. ey
                        > > OFris. ey
                        > > Langobardic *auja
                        > > OE ieg (survives in MnE island, with spelling influenced by the
                        > > unrelated French isle)
                        > >
                        > > Under island the Oxford English dictionary comments: "1. a. A
                        piece
                        > > of land completely surrounded by water. Formerly used less
                        > > definitely, including a peninsula, or a place insulated at high
                        > > water or during floods, or begirt by marshes, a usage which
                        survives
                        > > in particular instances..." (e.g. certain place names.)
                        > >
                        > > (And related, German Au(e) < OHG ouwa.)
                        > >
                        > > I'm completely ignorant of the history of Finnish, so I don't
                        know
                        > > if changes in Finnish alone can account for the form given, but
                        in
                        > > Germanic this word would be *aujo > Proto Norse *auju.
                        > >
                        > > Llama Nom
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "?????? ????????" <vegorov@i...>
                        > > wrote:
                        > >> *****
                        > >>
                        > >> Hi Llama Nom!
                        > >>
                        > >> If <Aujom> is treated as the dative, what could be the
                        nominative?
                        > >> Accordingly, may be considered, in your opinion,
                        > >> Finnish <oja> "ditch, drain" as a possible origin
                        > >> of this mysterious toponym?
                        > >>
                        > >> Vladimir
                        > >>
                        > >>
                        > >>
                        > >>
                        > >>
                        > >>
                        > >> -----Original Message-----
                        > >> From: llama_nom [mailto:600cell@o...]
                        > >> Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 7:48 PM
                        > >> To: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com
                        > >> Subject: [gothic-l] Re: kusanata (Jordanes in Gothic)
                        > >>
                        > >>
                        > >>
                        > >>
                        > >> ...
                        > >> "ana Aujom" I treated it like names where the preposition and
                        > > dative
                        > >> are conventionally fixed as part of the name, as sometimes
                        happens
                        > >> in OE and ON, since the Latin form seems to have taken over the
                        > >> dative ending from Gothic.
                        > >> ...
                        > >>
                        > >> Llama Nom
                        > >>
                        > >>
                        > >>
                        > >>
                        > >>
                        > >>
                        > >> You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a
                        > > blank email to <gothic-l-unsubscribe@egroups.com>.
                        > >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a
                        blank email
                        > > to <gothic-l-unsubscribe@egroups.com>.
                        > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                      • llama_nom
                        In which case: Go. *Skadinawi = OE scedenig = OIc. Skáney = Skaane, if this contains the island word, in its broader sense of land only partly surrounded by
                        Message 11 of 18 , Feb 25, 2005
                        • 0 Attachment
                          In which case: Go. *Skadinawi = OE scedenig = OIc. Skáney = Skaane,
                          if this contains the "island" word, in its broader sense of land
                          only partly surrounded by water.

                          LN



                          --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <600cell@o...> wrote:
                          >
                          >
                          > Hails Manie,
                          >
                          > First, a correction to something I wrote: The word meaning "water
                          > meadow, land liable to flooding, island, etc.", jo-stem, feminine,
                          > would actually give Gothic *AWI in the nominative singular,
                          declined
                          > like 'mawi' (acc.sg. *auja, etc.).
                          >
                          > I think the word meaning "luck" is cited in the form AUJA by
                          Koebler
                          > because one of the early Scandinavian runic inscriptions which
                          > contains it has been considered East Germanic. But the grounds
                          for
                          > such attributions I gather is often quite tenuous.
                          >
                          > The regular Gothic form corresponding to Proto Norse AUJA would be
                          > *AWI as well, neuter ja-stem, declined like 'hawi'.
                          >
                          > Llama Nom
                        • faltin2001
                          ... Anhang ... Hi Llama Nom, that is interesting. I only cited the supposed link with m.Germ. Heim, because it is mentioned in H. Wolfram s book (I think).
                          Message 12 of 18 , Feb 25, 2005
                          • 0 Attachment
                            --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <600cell@o...> wrote:
                            >
                            > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "faltin2001" <dirk@s...> wrote:
                            >
                            > > However, I thought that Jordanes' Oium is linked with modern
                            > German
                            > > Heim, i.e. home.
                            >
                            >
                            > Hi Dirk,
                            >
                            > Maybe, but I gather Latin writers usually render Gothic <ai> in
                            > personal names as <ai> or <ei>, or sometimes <e> (Dagalaiphus,
                            > Gaina, Radagaisus, Vajasindus; Gisaleicus; Gesila, Gesimundus;
                            > also 'eils' in De Conviviis Barbaris).
                            >
                            > But <auj> tends to appear as <oi> in Latin, e.g. names beginning
                            > Froi-, Froj- = Go. Frauj-.
                            >
                            > Examples from Braune/Helm "Gotische Grammatik", and Koebler's
                            Anhang
                            > 3 Wörterbuch der gotischen Namen:
                            >
                            > http://www.koeblergerhard.de/gotwbhin.html
                            >
                            > Llama Nom



                            Hi Llama Nom,

                            that is interesting. I only cited the supposed link with m.Germ.
                            Heim, because it is mentioned in H. Wolfram's book (I think).

                            Cheers
                            Dirk
                          • OSCAR HERRERA
                            what is goth for then or than....the dictionary says thau,i think ,however im not sure....hwa ist gutiska faur then aithau than...tho boko qaths thau,ik
                            Message 13 of 18 , Feb 25, 2005
                            • 0 Attachment
                              what is goth for then or than....the dictionary says thau,i think ,however im not sure....hwa ist gutiska faur then aithau than...tho boko qaths thau,ik thigk,auk ik im ni hails....oscar herrera

                              llama_nom <600cell@...> wrote:


                              In which case: Go. *Skadinawi = OE scedenig = OIc. Sk�ney = Skaane,
                              if this contains the "island" word, in its broader sense of land
                              only partly surrounded by water.

                              LN



                              --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <600cell@o...> wrote:
                              >
                              >
                              > Hails Manie,
                              >
                              > First, a correction to something I wrote: The word meaning "water
                              > meadow, land liable to flooding, island, etc.", jo-stem, feminine,
                              > would actually give Gothic *AWI in the nominative singular,
                              declined
                              > like 'mawi' (acc.sg. *auja, etc.).
                              >
                              > I think the word meaning "luck" is cited in the form AUJA by
                              Koebler
                              > because one of the early Scandinavian runic inscriptions which
                              > contains it has been considered East Germanic. But the grounds
                              for
                              > such attributions I gather is often quite tenuous.
                              >
                              > The regular Gothic form corresponding to Proto Norse AUJA would be
                              > *AWI as well, neuter ja-stem, declined like 'hawi'.
                              >
                              > Llama Nom







                              You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a blank email to .
                              Yahoo! Groups Links










                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Сергей Черныш
                              Hello I would like to draw your attention to limestone slab with runic inscription (http://mogilnik.narod.ru/Stella.htm). It was found by South-Bosporian
                              Message 14 of 18 , Feb 27, 2005
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Hello
                                I would like to draw your attention to limestone slab with runic inscription (http://mogilnik.narod.ru/Stella.htm). It was found by South-Bosporian expedition of the Crimean branch of Institute of archeology National Academy of Science of Ukraine on mountain Opuk in Kerch region (look at the map). Here ancient authors mentioned the city of Kimmerik. In 4 AD on mountain the citadel has been constructed when Uzunlar wall becomes a border between Chersonese and Bosporus. The Citadel survived up to 6 century AD.
                                The size of a plate 0,62 х 0,49 х 0,20 m. Height of signs of 0,15 m, relief depth - 0,005-0,009 m (cut out was a background, so cross and signs are elevated).
                                Publicators interpreted inscription as a herulic and descended from local pagan sanctuary ( VK Golenko, VJ Yurochkin, OA Sin'ko, AV Djanov - Runicheskij kamen' s gory Opuk i nekotoryje problemy istorii severoprichernomorskich germanzev ( Runic stone from Opuk mountain and some questions of history of germans on North coast of Black sea ) . In: Drevnosti Bospora 2. (Antiquities of Bospor)
                                Their interpretation is disputable enough. Some of specialists considered authenticity of this find as doubtful.
                                It would be interesting to know your opinion.
                              • Troels Brandt
                                ... inscription (http://mogilnik.narod.ru/Stella.htm). It was found by South-Bosporian expedition of the Crimean branch of Institute of archeology National
                                Message 15 of 18 , Mar 7 9:41 AM
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, óÅÒÇÅÊ þÅÒÎÙÛ <authari@m...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Hello
                                  > I would like to draw your attention to limestone slab with runic
                                  inscription (http://mogilnik.narod.ru/Stella.htm). It was found by
                                  South-Bosporian expedition of the Crimean branch of Institute of
                                  archeology National Academy of Science of Ukraine on mountain Opuk in
                                  Kerch region (look at the map). Here ancient authors mentioned the
                                  city of Kimmerik. In 4 AD on mountain the citadel has been
                                  constructed when Uzunlar wall becomes a border between Chersonese and
                                  Bosporus. The Citadel survived up to 6 century AD.
                                  > The size of a plate 0,62 È 0,49 È 0,20 m. Height of signs of 0,15
                                  m, relief depth - 0,005-0,009 m (cut out was a background, so cross
                                  and signs are elevated).
                                  > Publicators interpreted inscription as a herulic and descended from
                                  local pagan sanctuary ( VK Golenko, VJ Yurochkin, OA Sin'ko, AV
                                  Djanov - Runicheskij kamen' s gory Opuk i nekotoryje problemy
                                  istorii severoprichernomorskich germanzev ( Runic stone from Opuk
                                  mountain and some questions of history of germans on North coast of
                                  Black sea ) . In: Drevnosti Bospora 2. (Antiquities of Bospor)
                                  > Their interpretation is disputable enough. Some of specialists
                                  considered authenticity of this find as doubtful.
                                  > It would be interesting to know your opinion.



                                  I guess you among other possibilities are searching for Scandinavian
                                  traces as you mentioned the Heruls.

                                  I am not the right to answer and llama has answered the linquistc
                                  part. I can only add the theoretical possibility that the runes
                                  represented their symbolic Norse names: Thurs (troll), Pertra (maybe
                                  stone), Reid (riding) and As (Ansuz, god), but I doubt - especiallly
                                  as the T is reverse, which might indicate a forgery or missing
                                  knowledge of runes. A relief was an unusal way to carve runes - and
                                  most of the early runes were not carved in stone at all, but I think
                                  that depends of local practice.

                                  The Scandinavian wheel crosses normally belonged to the Bronce Ages
                                  and were at the later bracteats normally replaced by the swastica,
                                  but a wheel cross was placed at one of the boats from the Baltic Sea
                                  found in Nydam - contemporary with the dating of your stone if 4 AD
                                  is the 4th century.

                                  Primarily I am interested to hear why this stone is combined with the
                                  Heruls - except for the runes of course. Is there any specific reason
                                  for that?

                                  Troels
                                • llama_nom
                                  ... Far from it: I haven´t answered anything, only suggested some more questions! I just tried to give a summary of what sort of inscriptions have been found
                                  Message 16 of 18 , Mar 7 7:38 PM
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "Troels Brandt" <trbrandt@p...>
                                    wrote:

                                    > I am not the right to answer and llama has answered the linquistc
                                    > part.


                                    Far from it: I haven´t answered anything, only suggested some more
                                    questions! I just tried to give a summary of what sort of
                                    inscriptions have been found so far that are attributed to East
                                    Germanic peoples such as the Goths and Heruls. Anything else is
                                    pure speculation on my part.

                                    Troels mentions the idea of runes used as ideographs, standing for
                                    the concept represented by the name of the rune
                                    (called "Begriffsrunen" in German, "begrepsruner" in Norwegian,
                                    which term is sometimes translated "concept runes" in English).
                                    That´s something I hadn´t thought of, but an interesting possibility
                                    to consider. The technique is probably used in some Scandinavian
                                    inscriptions predating the Viking Age (e.g. Stentoften & Gummarp),
                                    and it is attested somewhat later in Anglo-Saxon manuscripts, but
                                    there are many inscriptions where the use of concept runes is
                                    disputed, or impossible to prove. There is one widely accepted
                                    example of a concept rune in an inscription considered to be Gothic:
                                    the Pietroassa ring, found in Romania. Here, as at Stentoften, the
                                    ideograph as part of a text which otherwise is spelt out in full--
                                    rather than a series of initials.

                                    Here is a quote from JH Looijenga's book "Runes Around the North
                                    Sea...", she is talking about finds from before the Viking period:

                                    "Personally I have difficulties determining when and if an
                                    ideographic rune (or Begriffsrune) was used, since the runewriters'
                                    criteria for using them are unknown to us. There is at least
                                    one clear instance of the use of an ideographic rune: the single j
                                    rune on the Stentoften stone, representing its name *jara
                                    meaning `good year' = harvest. The peculiar use of this ideograph
                                    is further emphasized by the fact that it was carved in an archaic
                                    fashion. The h in Thorsberg aisgzh may or may not be such a
                                    Begriffsrune, there is no graphic peculiarity (h has no
                                    archaic forerunner), but, in Antonsen's interpretation, it could
                                    symbolize its name on syntactic grounds. In some other cases,
                                    isolated runes may be read as abbreviations, such as the r in the
                                    Sievern bracteate, which apparently denotes r[unoz]. Single runes
                                    may have been read as abbreviations in the oldest inscriptions, and
                                    may later on have come to represent the symbolic meaning of the
                                    rune's name."

                                    http://www.ub.rug.nl/eldoc/dis/arts/j.h.looijenga/


                                    Needless to say, with a whole series of abbreviations, it would be
                                    very hard to narrow down the possible interpretations. If they
                                    stood for the concepts embodied in the rune names, it's easy to
                                    think up symbolic interpretations, but hard if not impossible to
                                    test them.

                                    Llama Nom
                                  • Troels Brandt
                                    I agree in your comments below. It was the connection Kerch - Goths - Romenia - Pietroassa - Reicherts J -rune (discussed as at Stentoften) which made me
                                    Message 17 of 18 , Mar 8 5:10 AM
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      I agree in your comments below. It was the connection Kerch - Goths -
                                      Romenia - Pietroassa - Reicherts "J"-rune (discussed as at
                                      Stentoften) which made me suggest this theoretical possibility.

                                      Troels

                                      --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <600cell@o...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "Troels Brandt" <trbrandt@p...>
                                      > wrote:
                                      >
                                      > > I am not the right to answer and llama has answered the linquistc
                                      > > part.
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Far from it: I haven´t answered anything, only suggested some more
                                      > questions! I just tried to give a summary of what sort of
                                      > inscriptions have been found so far that are attributed to East
                                      > Germanic peoples such as the Goths and Heruls. Anything else is
                                      > pure speculation on my part.
                                      >
                                      > Troels mentions the idea of runes used as ideographs, standing for
                                      > the concept represented by the name of the rune
                                      > (called "Begriffsrunen" in German, "begrepsruner" in Norwegian,
                                      > which term is sometimes translated "concept runes" in English).
                                      > That´s something I hadn´t thought of, but an interesting
                                      possibility
                                      > to consider. The technique is probably used in some Scandinavian
                                      > inscriptions predating the Viking Age (e.g. Stentoften & Gummarp),
                                      > and it is attested somewhat later in Anglo-Saxon manuscripts, but
                                      > there are many inscriptions where the use of concept runes is
                                      > disputed, or impossible to prove. There is one widely accepted
                                      > example of a concept rune in an inscription considered to be
                                      Gothic:
                                      > the Pietroassa ring, found in Romania. Here, as at Stentoften, the
                                      > ideograph as part of a text which otherwise is spelt out in full--
                                      > rather than a series of initials.
                                      >
                                      > Here is a quote from JH Looijenga's book "Runes Around the North
                                      > Sea...", she is talking about finds from before the Viking period:
                                      >
                                      > "Personally I have difficulties determining when and if an
                                      > ideographic rune (or Begriffsrune) was used, since the runewriters'
                                      > criteria for using them are unknown to us. There is at least
                                      > one clear instance of the use of an ideographic rune: the single j
                                      > rune on the Stentoften stone, representing its name *jara
                                      > meaning `good year' = harvest. The peculiar use of this ideograph
                                      > is further emphasized by the fact that it was carved in an archaic
                                      > fashion. The h in Thorsberg aisgzh may or may not be such a
                                      > Begriffsrune, there is no graphic peculiarity (h has no
                                      > archaic forerunner), but, in Antonsen's interpretation, it could
                                      > symbolize its name on syntactic grounds. In some other cases,
                                      > isolated runes may be read as abbreviations, such as the r in the
                                      > Sievern bracteate, which apparently denotes r[unoz]. Single runes
                                      > may have been read as abbreviations in the oldest inscriptions, and
                                      > may later on have come to represent the symbolic meaning of the
                                      > rune's name."
                                      >
                                      > http://www.ub.rug.nl/eldoc/dis/arts/j.h.looijenga/
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Needless to say, with a whole series of abbreviations, it would be
                                      > very hard to narrow down the possible interpretations. If they
                                      > stood for the concepts embodied in the rune names, it's easy to
                                      > think up symbolic interpretations, but hard if not impossible to
                                      > test them.
                                      >
                                      > Llama Nom
                                    Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.