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Re: "would" & "should"

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  • llama_nom
    ... faur were...samaain gatiehan mis....thagkam ... were is wes , so is would wesith....you could use skuld or should ,but would and should are different
    Message 1 of 15 , Feb 4, 2005
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      --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, OSCAR HERRERA <duke.co@s...> wrote:
      > whats the word for would....ist wesith thau hwa....wes ist waurd
      faur were...samaain gatiehan mis....thagkam
      >
      > OSCAR HERRERA <duke.co@s...> wrote:
      > who were the amals...also when you use would,like for instance
      were is wes , so is would wesith....you could use skuld or
      should ,but would and should are different words....oscar herr


      Hi Oscar,

      For a table of verbal inflections in Gothic and related languages:

      http://titus.fkidg1.uni-frankfurt.de/didact/idg/germ/gotverb.htm

      In English, the words "would" and "should" each have a number of
      different uses, which would be translated in different ways into
      Gothic. Often "would" is not represented by a separate word in
      Gothic, but by a change in the form of the verb, usually the past
      subjunctive (sometimes "past" is also called "preterite", and some
      people call the "subjunctive" the "optative"--but in Gothic these
      refer to the same thing).

      Simple statements are usually in the indicative mood: WAS "it was";
      but the subjunctive mood expresses doubt, uncertainty WESI "it would
      have been". WESUN "they were"; WESEINA "they would have been".
      TAWIDEDUN "they did"; TAWIDEDEINA "they would do / have done". Just
      as there are indicative endings for past tense and present, in both
      active and passive voices, so there are past active & passive
      subjunctive endings and present active and passive ones.

      Some examples:

      WOULD

      1) hypothetical: "that WOULD have gone against what is appropriate"
      (if he did that, but he didn't, so it's just hypothetical, an
      imaginary possibility).

      3) possibility (whether): "they watched him to see if he WOULD heal
      on the sabbath so that they could accuse him" (he might yet do, but
      so far we just don't know).

      3) intentional: "and many made threats to him SO THAT HE WOULD BE
      SILENT" (or: ...to be silent / ...that he should be quiet / warned
      him to be quiet, etc).

      4) concessive (then, in that case--accompanying an "if"
      clause): "WOULD it not then seem...?"

      5) future in past: "for he WOULD betray him" = he was going to
      betray him (but this hadn't happened yet at this time in the story).


      1) þatuh wesi wiþra þata gadob
      2) jah witaidedun imma hailidediu sabbato daga, ei wrohidedeina ina
      3) ei þahaidedi
      4) ni auk þuhtedi þau...
      5) sa auk habaida ina galewjan


      Things to note:

      1 and 3, "would" is represented not by a separate word, but by a
      change of inflection in the verb to the subjunctive mood,
      specifically the past subjunctive. Thus: WAS WIÞRA ÞATA GADOB "it
      was inappropriate"; WESI "it would have been". The subjunctive has
      various uses besides this, connected with the idea of uncertainty or
      unreality or wishing/intention: maht wesi frabugjan "it could have
      been sold" (but it wasn't); nih qemjau jah rodidedjau du im,
      frawaurht ni habaidedeina "if I hadn't come and spoken to them, they
      WOULDN'T have had sin".

      2 also uses the subjunctive, but with the addition of the
      interrogative particle -u. The quote is from Mark; Luke's gospel
      expresses it in a slightly different way: witaidedunuh þan þai
      bokarjos jah Fareisaieis, jau in sabbato daga leikinodedi, ei
      bigeteina til du wrohjan ina "now the scribes and Pharasees kept a
      watch to see if he WOULD heal on the sabbath, so that they
      WOULD/might/could have a chance to accuse him".

      In 4, the concessive particle ÞAU would probably come nearer the
      front of the clause if it wasn't for the other particle AUK. E.g.
      iþ weseis her, ni þau gadauþnodedi broþar meins "if you had been
      here, then my brother would not have died"; jabai allis Mose
      galaubidedeiþ, ga-þau-laubidedeiþ mis "if you had believed Moses,
      then you would have believed me". ÞAU can be omitted in the "then"
      clause, whether the "if" clause is introduced by IÞ or JABAI or
      simply a subjunctive verb as in the example NIH QEMJAU... above.

      5, future in past, is a compound tense formed with an infinitive
      verb + the past tense of haban "to have".

      The subjunctive is also used in various other circumsatnces where
      English has "would" expressing uncertainty, e.g. "we went to see
      what he would do" (MADE UP EXAMPLE, TREAT WITH CAUTION: iddjedum ei
      gasehveima hva tawidedi; iddjedum gasaihvan hva wesi þatei tawidedi--
      or something like that maybe), and requests "would you
      [please]...?". In fact the irregular verb WILJAN "want" only has
      subjunctive-like forms: WILJAU "I want/like, I would like".


      SHOULD

      This is often expressed with the Gothic verb SKULAN, e.g. skulum
      weis "we should / ought to".

      Obligation "should" or "must" can sometimes be expressed with the
      combination of neuter past participle of skulan + the verb "to be"--
      SKULD IST +dative, e.g. skuld ist unsis "we must/should... / we are
      obliged / have a duty to" + infinitive. Ni skuld ist unsis "we
      should not / are not allowed to / it is not right for us to..." +
      infinitive.

      The passive is similar, except that SKULD is inflected for person
      and number: allai weis ataugjan skuldai sijum faura stauastola
      Xristaus "...we must all be shown [i.e. appear] before the judgement
      seat of Christ"; sunus mans skulds ist atgiban in handuns manne "the
      son of man must be given into the hands of men".

      I've used "must" here, but it's easy to see how such constructions
      might be equivalent to English "should", for example in indirect
      speech, perhaps with Gothic subjunctives. If MAHT WESI FRABUGJAN
      = "it could have been sold", presumably SKULD WESI = "it should have
      been". I can't think of an example of this right now...

      Llama Nom
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