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Names - Correction

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  • Francisc Czobor
    In my previous mail, I missread Ildibaldus as Ildibadus and analyzed the word as hildi- war + badws war . In fact it is: Ildibaldus: hildi- war + balths
    Message 1 of 15 , Feb 2, 2005
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      In my previous mail, I missread Ildibaldus as "Ildibadus" and
      analyzed the word as hildi- "war" + badws "war".
      In fact it is:
      Ildibaldus: hildi- "war" + balths / bald- "bold"

      Francisc
    • yafet_rasnal@yahoo.com
      Thank you very much. it s really interesting Lorenzo
      Message 2 of 15 , Feb 2, 2005
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        Thank you very much. it's really interesting

        Lorenzo

        --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "Francisc Czobor" <fericzobor@y...>
        wrote:
        >
        > Hello, Lorenzo
        >
        > A list of attested Gothic names, with indication of etymology, you
        > can find in Annex 3 of Koeblers Gotisches Wörterbuch: "Gotische Namen"
        > (http://www.koeblergerhard.de/germanistischewoerterbuecher/gotischeswo
        > erterbuch/GotischeNamen.pdf)
        > There is also a good site: "Gothic Names"
        > (http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Salon/2385/gothnames.html)
        > which gives exactly what you need: the significance of the Gothic
        > name elements.
        > Using these sources, the names listed by you could be explained as
        > follows:
        >
        > Theodoricus: thiuda- "people" + reiks "ruler / king"
        > Athalaricus: athala- "noble" + reiks "ruler / king"
        > Amalasuntha = Amalaswintha: Amala + swintha "strong" (fem.)
        > Eraricus: era- (aira-) ? (air "early" or era "era" ??) +
        > reiks "ruler / king"
        > Matasuntha: ? mahta- "mighty" or matha "good" + swintha "strong"
        > (fem.)
        > Theodahatus: thiuda- "people" + hathus "fight, struggle, battle"
        > Witiges: weiti "punishment" + geis < geisls "hostage"
        > Ildibaldus: hildi- "war" + badws "war"
        > Baduila: badw- "war" + -ila (diminutive suffix)
        > Totila: unknown etymology; in any case, a diminutive (because of the
        > ending –ila)
        > Theia: probably a diminutive from an unknown full form
        >
        > Best regards,
        > Francisc
      • llama_nom
        ... faur were...samaain gatiehan mis....thagkam ... were is wes , so is would wesith....you could use skuld or should ,but would and should are different
        Message 3 of 15 , Feb 4, 2005
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          --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, OSCAR HERRERA <duke.co@s...> wrote:
          > whats the word for would....ist wesith thau hwa....wes ist waurd
          faur were...samaain gatiehan mis....thagkam
          >
          > OSCAR HERRERA <duke.co@s...> wrote:
          > who were the amals...also when you use would,like for instance
          were is wes , so is would wesith....you could use skuld or
          should ,but would and should are different words....oscar herr


          Hi Oscar,

          For a table of verbal inflections in Gothic and related languages:

          http://titus.fkidg1.uni-frankfurt.de/didact/idg/germ/gotverb.htm

          In English, the words "would" and "should" each have a number of
          different uses, which would be translated in different ways into
          Gothic. Often "would" is not represented by a separate word in
          Gothic, but by a change in the form of the verb, usually the past
          subjunctive (sometimes "past" is also called "preterite", and some
          people call the "subjunctive" the "optative"--but in Gothic these
          refer to the same thing).

          Simple statements are usually in the indicative mood: WAS "it was";
          but the subjunctive mood expresses doubt, uncertainty WESI "it would
          have been". WESUN "they were"; WESEINA "they would have been".
          TAWIDEDUN "they did"; TAWIDEDEINA "they would do / have done". Just
          as there are indicative endings for past tense and present, in both
          active and passive voices, so there are past active & passive
          subjunctive endings and present active and passive ones.

          Some examples:

          WOULD

          1) hypothetical: "that WOULD have gone against what is appropriate"
          (if he did that, but he didn't, so it's just hypothetical, an
          imaginary possibility).

          3) possibility (whether): "they watched him to see if he WOULD heal
          on the sabbath so that they could accuse him" (he might yet do, but
          so far we just don't know).

          3) intentional: "and many made threats to him SO THAT HE WOULD BE
          SILENT" (or: ...to be silent / ...that he should be quiet / warned
          him to be quiet, etc).

          4) concessive (then, in that case--accompanying an "if"
          clause): "WOULD it not then seem...?"

          5) future in past: "for he WOULD betray him" = he was going to
          betray him (but this hadn't happened yet at this time in the story).


          1) þatuh wesi wiþra þata gadob
          2) jah witaidedun imma hailidediu sabbato daga, ei wrohidedeina ina
          3) ei þahaidedi
          4) ni auk þuhtedi þau...
          5) sa auk habaida ina galewjan


          Things to note:

          1 and 3, "would" is represented not by a separate word, but by a
          change of inflection in the verb to the subjunctive mood,
          specifically the past subjunctive. Thus: WAS WIÞRA ÞATA GADOB "it
          was inappropriate"; WESI "it would have been". The subjunctive has
          various uses besides this, connected with the idea of uncertainty or
          unreality or wishing/intention: maht wesi frabugjan "it could have
          been sold" (but it wasn't); nih qemjau jah rodidedjau du im,
          frawaurht ni habaidedeina "if I hadn't come and spoken to them, they
          WOULDN'T have had sin".

          2 also uses the subjunctive, but with the addition of the
          interrogative particle -u. The quote is from Mark; Luke's gospel
          expresses it in a slightly different way: witaidedunuh þan þai
          bokarjos jah Fareisaieis, jau in sabbato daga leikinodedi, ei
          bigeteina til du wrohjan ina "now the scribes and Pharasees kept a
          watch to see if he WOULD heal on the sabbath, so that they
          WOULD/might/could have a chance to accuse him".

          In 4, the concessive particle ÞAU would probably come nearer the
          front of the clause if it wasn't for the other particle AUK. E.g.
          iþ weseis her, ni þau gadauþnodedi broþar meins "if you had been
          here, then my brother would not have died"; jabai allis Mose
          galaubidedeiþ, ga-þau-laubidedeiþ mis "if you had believed Moses,
          then you would have believed me". ÞAU can be omitted in the "then"
          clause, whether the "if" clause is introduced by IÞ or JABAI or
          simply a subjunctive verb as in the example NIH QEMJAU... above.

          5, future in past, is a compound tense formed with an infinitive
          verb + the past tense of haban "to have".

          The subjunctive is also used in various other circumsatnces where
          English has "would" expressing uncertainty, e.g. "we went to see
          what he would do" (MADE UP EXAMPLE, TREAT WITH CAUTION: iddjedum ei
          gasehveima hva tawidedi; iddjedum gasaihvan hva wesi þatei tawidedi--
          or something like that maybe), and requests "would you
          [please]...?". In fact the irregular verb WILJAN "want" only has
          subjunctive-like forms: WILJAU "I want/like, I would like".


          SHOULD

          This is often expressed with the Gothic verb SKULAN, e.g. skulum
          weis "we should / ought to".

          Obligation "should" or "must" can sometimes be expressed with the
          combination of neuter past participle of skulan + the verb "to be"--
          SKULD IST +dative, e.g. skuld ist unsis "we must/should... / we are
          obliged / have a duty to" + infinitive. Ni skuld ist unsis "we
          should not / are not allowed to / it is not right for us to..." +
          infinitive.

          The passive is similar, except that SKULD is inflected for person
          and number: allai weis ataugjan skuldai sijum faura stauastola
          Xristaus "...we must all be shown [i.e. appear] before the judgement
          seat of Christ"; sunus mans skulds ist atgiban in handuns manne "the
          son of man must be given into the hands of men".

          I've used "must" here, but it's easy to see how such constructions
          might be equivalent to English "should", for example in indirect
          speech, perhaps with Gothic subjunctives. If MAHT WESI FRABUGJAN
          = "it could have been sold", presumably SKULD WESI = "it should have
          been". I can't think of an example of this right now...

          Llama Nom
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