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Re: Ostrogothic coins pictures

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  • yafet_rasnal@yahoo.com
    Thank you Brian. I have few information about the gothic language Lorenzo
    Message 1 of 15 , Jan 31, 2005
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      Thank you Brian. I have few information about the gothic language

      Lorenzo

      --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "brianbeck_au" <babeck@a...> wrote:
      >
      > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, yafet_rasnal@y... wrote:
      > > ostrogoths/visigoths/gepids/vandals kings? And maybe explain me the
      > > meaning of their names? I just know that Amalaswintha means virgin
      > of
      > > the Amals.
      > > Thanx
      > >
      > > Lorenzo
      > Hi Lorenzo,
      > I believe Amalaswintha actually means "Strength of the Amals" < G.
      > swinths, strong (cf. O.E. swíth, strong).
      > Cheers,
      > Brian Beck
    • yafet_rasnal@yahoo.com
      Hello Francisc, thank you very much for your research. i Would need Cassiodorus, Variae I.X for a reference about the coinage. i will check between the links
      Message 2 of 15 , Jan 31, 2005
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        Hello Francisc, thank you very much for your research. i Would need
        Cassiodorus, Variae I.X for a reference about the coinage. i will
        check between the links you gave me.
        So if swintha refers to strenght, what is the meaning of Mataswintha?
        Can anybody tell me the gothic form of these names and, if it's not
        too boring, also their meaning

        Theodoricus
        Athalaricus
        Amalasuntha = Amalaswintha = the strenght of the amals
        Eraricus
        Matasuntha
        Theodahatus
        Witiges
        Ildibaldus
        Baduila
        Totila = (if i remember well it's "the immortal")
        Theia
        Sorry for being so boring but i have no books to search on.
        Thanx

        Lorenzo

        --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "Francisc Czobor" <fericzobor@y...>
        wrote:
        >
        > Hi, Lorenzo,
        >
        > Looking for translated works of Procopius and Cassiodorus, this is
        > what I've found by "googling" the web:
        >
        > Procopiu's Secret History in English:
        > http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/basis/procop-anec.html
        >
        > Regarding Cassiodorus, no complete translation in English.
        > Translated fragments:
        > Variae 4.51: http://www.theaterofpompey.com/auditorium/pa-
        > sources/cassiodorus-4-51.html
        > Excerpts from Variae:
        > http://www.deremilitari.org/RESOURCES/SOURCES/cassiodorus.htm
        > Excerpts from Institutiones:
        > http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/jod/texts/cass.inst.html
        >
        > Cassiodorus in Latin:
        > http://www.thelatinlibrary.com/cassiodorus.html
        > http://www.gmu.edu/departments/fld/CLASSICS/cassiodorus.variae.html
        > http://www.intratext.com/Catalogo/Autori/Aut58.HTM
        > The Variae: http://freespace.virgin.net/angus.graham/Cassiodorus.htm
        > The Variae etc.: http://www.forumromanum.org/literature/table.html
        >
        > Secondary source about Cassiodorus: O'Donnell's "Cassiodorus":
        > http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/jod/texts/cassbook/toc.html
        > http://www.ptsem.edu/grow/library/nyatla/cassiodorus/toc.htm
        >
        > Regarding Amalaswintha, this name means rather "strength of the
        > Amals" or "strong (lady) of the Amals", since swintha is the feminine
        > form of the adjective swinths "strong, physically powerful".
        >
        > Best regards,
        > Francisc
        >
        >
        >
        > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, yafet_rasnal@y... wrote:
        > >
        > >
        > > Hello Francisc
        > > thank you for yr nice words. Do you know where i could find online
        > > translated works of Procopius and Cassiodorus? I already found
        > > Jordanes. I think i will include the latin works and if i will find
        > > them and have authorizations, also the english translations.
        > > Moreover can anyone tell me the exact spelling of
        > > ostrogoths/visigoths/gepids/vandals kings? And maybe explain me the
        > > meaning of their names? I just know that Amalaswintha means virgin
        > of
        > > the Amals.
        > > Thanx
        > >
        > > Lorenzo
        > >
        > >...
      • Francisc Czobor
        Hello, Lorenzo A list of attested Gothic names, with indication of etymology, you can find in Annex 3 of Koeblers Gotisches Wörterbuch: Gotische Namen
        Message 3 of 15 , Feb 1, 2005
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          Hello, Lorenzo

          A list of attested Gothic names, with indication of etymology, you
          can find in Annex 3 of Koeblers Gotisches Wörterbuch: "Gotische Namen"
          (http://www.koeblergerhard.de/germanistischewoerterbuecher/gotischeswo
          erterbuch/GotischeNamen.pdf)
          There is also a good site: "Gothic Names"
          (http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Salon/2385/gothnames.html)
          which gives exactly what you need: the significance of the Gothic
          name elements.
          Using these sources, the names listed by you could be explained as
          follows:

          Theodoricus: thiuda- "people" + reiks "ruler / king"
          Athalaricus: athala- "noble" + reiks "ruler / king"
          Amalasuntha = Amalaswintha: Amala + swintha "strong" (fem.)
          Eraricus: era- (aira-) ? (air "early" or era "era" ??) +
          reiks "ruler / king"
          Matasuntha: ? mahta- "mighty" or matha "good" + swintha "strong"
          (fem.)
          Theodahatus: thiuda- "people" + hathus "fight, struggle, battle"
          Witiges: weiti "punishment" + geis < geisls "hostage"
          Ildibaldus: hildi- "war" + badws "war"
          Baduila: badw- "war" + -ila (diminutive suffix)
          Totila: unknown etymology; in any case, a diminutive (because of the
          ending –ila)
          Theia: probably a diminutive from an unknown full form

          Best regards,
          Francisc
        • OSCAR HERRERA
          whats the word for would....ist wesith thau hwa....wes ist waurd faur were...samaain gatiehan mis....thagkam OSCAR HERRERA wrote: who
          Message 4 of 15 , Feb 1, 2005
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            whats the word for would....ist wesith thau hwa....wes ist waurd faur were...samaain gatiehan mis....thagkam

            OSCAR HERRERA <duke.co@...> wrote:
            who were the amals...also when you use would,like for instance were is wes , so is would wesith....you could use skuld or should ,but would and should are different words....oscar herr

            brianbeck_au wrote:

            --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, yafet_rasnal@y... wrote:
            > ostrogoths/visigoths/gepids/vandals kings? And maybe explain me the
            > meaning of their names? I just know that Amalaswintha means virgin
            of
            > the Amals.
            > Thanx
            >
            > Lorenzo
            Hi Lorenzo,
            I believe Amalaswintha actually means "Strength of the Amals" < G.
            swinths, strong (cf. O.E. sw�th, strong).
            Cheers,
            Brian Beck






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          • Francisc Czobor
            In my previous mail, I missread Ildibaldus as Ildibadus and analyzed the word as hildi- war + badws war . In fact it is: Ildibaldus: hildi- war + balths
            Message 5 of 15 , Feb 2, 2005
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              In my previous mail, I missread Ildibaldus as "Ildibadus" and
              analyzed the word as hildi- "war" + badws "war".
              In fact it is:
              Ildibaldus: hildi- "war" + balths / bald- "bold"

              Francisc
            • yafet_rasnal@yahoo.com
              Thank you very much. it s really interesting Lorenzo
              Message 6 of 15 , Feb 2, 2005
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                Thank you very much. it's really interesting

                Lorenzo

                --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "Francisc Czobor" <fericzobor@y...>
                wrote:
                >
                > Hello, Lorenzo
                >
                > A list of attested Gothic names, with indication of etymology, you
                > can find in Annex 3 of Koeblers Gotisches Wörterbuch: "Gotische Namen"
                > (http://www.koeblergerhard.de/germanistischewoerterbuecher/gotischeswo
                > erterbuch/GotischeNamen.pdf)
                > There is also a good site: "Gothic Names"
                > (http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Salon/2385/gothnames.html)
                > which gives exactly what you need: the significance of the Gothic
                > name elements.
                > Using these sources, the names listed by you could be explained as
                > follows:
                >
                > Theodoricus: thiuda- "people" + reiks "ruler / king"
                > Athalaricus: athala- "noble" + reiks "ruler / king"
                > Amalasuntha = Amalaswintha: Amala + swintha "strong" (fem.)
                > Eraricus: era- (aira-) ? (air "early" or era "era" ??) +
                > reiks "ruler / king"
                > Matasuntha: ? mahta- "mighty" or matha "good" + swintha "strong"
                > (fem.)
                > Theodahatus: thiuda- "people" + hathus "fight, struggle, battle"
                > Witiges: weiti "punishment" + geis < geisls "hostage"
                > Ildibaldus: hildi- "war" + badws "war"
                > Baduila: badw- "war" + -ila (diminutive suffix)
                > Totila: unknown etymology; in any case, a diminutive (because of the
                > ending –ila)
                > Theia: probably a diminutive from an unknown full form
                >
                > Best regards,
                > Francisc
              • llama_nom
                ... faur were...samaain gatiehan mis....thagkam ... were is wes , so is would wesith....you could use skuld or should ,but would and should are different
                Message 7 of 15 , Feb 4, 2005
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                  --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, OSCAR HERRERA <duke.co@s...> wrote:
                  > whats the word for would....ist wesith thau hwa....wes ist waurd
                  faur were...samaain gatiehan mis....thagkam
                  >
                  > OSCAR HERRERA <duke.co@s...> wrote:
                  > who were the amals...also when you use would,like for instance
                  were is wes , so is would wesith....you could use skuld or
                  should ,but would and should are different words....oscar herr


                  Hi Oscar,

                  For a table of verbal inflections in Gothic and related languages:

                  http://titus.fkidg1.uni-frankfurt.de/didact/idg/germ/gotverb.htm

                  In English, the words "would" and "should" each have a number of
                  different uses, which would be translated in different ways into
                  Gothic. Often "would" is not represented by a separate word in
                  Gothic, but by a change in the form of the verb, usually the past
                  subjunctive (sometimes "past" is also called "preterite", and some
                  people call the "subjunctive" the "optative"--but in Gothic these
                  refer to the same thing).

                  Simple statements are usually in the indicative mood: WAS "it was";
                  but the subjunctive mood expresses doubt, uncertainty WESI "it would
                  have been". WESUN "they were"; WESEINA "they would have been".
                  TAWIDEDUN "they did"; TAWIDEDEINA "they would do / have done". Just
                  as there are indicative endings for past tense and present, in both
                  active and passive voices, so there are past active & passive
                  subjunctive endings and present active and passive ones.

                  Some examples:

                  WOULD

                  1) hypothetical: "that WOULD have gone against what is appropriate"
                  (if he did that, but he didn't, so it's just hypothetical, an
                  imaginary possibility).

                  3) possibility (whether): "they watched him to see if he WOULD heal
                  on the sabbath so that they could accuse him" (he might yet do, but
                  so far we just don't know).

                  3) intentional: "and many made threats to him SO THAT HE WOULD BE
                  SILENT" (or: ...to be silent / ...that he should be quiet / warned
                  him to be quiet, etc).

                  4) concessive (then, in that case--accompanying an "if"
                  clause): "WOULD it not then seem...?"

                  5) future in past: "for he WOULD betray him" = he was going to
                  betray him (but this hadn't happened yet at this time in the story).


                  1) þatuh wesi wiþra þata gadob
                  2) jah witaidedun imma hailidediu sabbato daga, ei wrohidedeina ina
                  3) ei þahaidedi
                  4) ni auk þuhtedi þau...
                  5) sa auk habaida ina galewjan


                  Things to note:

                  1 and 3, "would" is represented not by a separate word, but by a
                  change of inflection in the verb to the subjunctive mood,
                  specifically the past subjunctive. Thus: WAS WIÞRA ÞATA GADOB "it
                  was inappropriate"; WESI "it would have been". The subjunctive has
                  various uses besides this, connected with the idea of uncertainty or
                  unreality or wishing/intention: maht wesi frabugjan "it could have
                  been sold" (but it wasn't); nih qemjau jah rodidedjau du im,
                  frawaurht ni habaidedeina "if I hadn't come and spoken to them, they
                  WOULDN'T have had sin".

                  2 also uses the subjunctive, but with the addition of the
                  interrogative particle -u. The quote is from Mark; Luke's gospel
                  expresses it in a slightly different way: witaidedunuh þan þai
                  bokarjos jah Fareisaieis, jau in sabbato daga leikinodedi, ei
                  bigeteina til du wrohjan ina "now the scribes and Pharasees kept a
                  watch to see if he WOULD heal on the sabbath, so that they
                  WOULD/might/could have a chance to accuse him".

                  In 4, the concessive particle ÞAU would probably come nearer the
                  front of the clause if it wasn't for the other particle AUK. E.g.
                  iþ weseis her, ni þau gadauþnodedi broþar meins "if you had been
                  here, then my brother would not have died"; jabai allis Mose
                  galaubidedeiþ, ga-þau-laubidedeiþ mis "if you had believed Moses,
                  then you would have believed me". ÞAU can be omitted in the "then"
                  clause, whether the "if" clause is introduced by IÞ or JABAI or
                  simply a subjunctive verb as in the example NIH QEMJAU... above.

                  5, future in past, is a compound tense formed with an infinitive
                  verb + the past tense of haban "to have".

                  The subjunctive is also used in various other circumsatnces where
                  English has "would" expressing uncertainty, e.g. "we went to see
                  what he would do" (MADE UP EXAMPLE, TREAT WITH CAUTION: iddjedum ei
                  gasehveima hva tawidedi; iddjedum gasaihvan hva wesi þatei tawidedi--
                  or something like that maybe), and requests "would you
                  [please]...?". In fact the irregular verb WILJAN "want" only has
                  subjunctive-like forms: WILJAU "I want/like, I would like".


                  SHOULD

                  This is often expressed with the Gothic verb SKULAN, e.g. skulum
                  weis "we should / ought to".

                  Obligation "should" or "must" can sometimes be expressed with the
                  combination of neuter past participle of skulan + the verb "to be"--
                  SKULD IST +dative, e.g. skuld ist unsis "we must/should... / we are
                  obliged / have a duty to" + infinitive. Ni skuld ist unsis "we
                  should not / are not allowed to / it is not right for us to..." +
                  infinitive.

                  The passive is similar, except that SKULD is inflected for person
                  and number: allai weis ataugjan skuldai sijum faura stauastola
                  Xristaus "...we must all be shown [i.e. appear] before the judgement
                  seat of Christ"; sunus mans skulds ist atgiban in handuns manne "the
                  son of man must be given into the hands of men".

                  I've used "must" here, but it's easy to see how such constructions
                  might be equivalent to English "should", for example in indirect
                  speech, perhaps with Gothic subjunctives. If MAHT WESI FRABUGJAN
                  = "it could have been sold", presumably SKULD WESI = "it should have
                  been". I can't think of an example of this right now...

                  Llama Nom
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