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Re: Ostrogothic coins pictures

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  • yafet_rasnal@yahoo.com
    Thank you Brian. I have few information about the gothic language Lorenzo
    Message 1 of 15 , Jan 31, 2005
      Thank you Brian. I have few information about the gothic language

      Lorenzo

      --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "brianbeck_au" <babeck@a...> wrote:
      >
      > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, yafet_rasnal@y... wrote:
      > > ostrogoths/visigoths/gepids/vandals kings? And maybe explain me the
      > > meaning of their names? I just know that Amalaswintha means virgin
      > of
      > > the Amals.
      > > Thanx
      > >
      > > Lorenzo
      > Hi Lorenzo,
      > I believe Amalaswintha actually means "Strength of the Amals" < G.
      > swinths, strong (cf. O.E. swíth, strong).
      > Cheers,
      > Brian Beck
    • Francisc Czobor
      Hi, Lorenzo, Looking for translated works of Procopius and Cassiodorus, this is what I ve found by googling the web: Procopiu s Secret History in English:
      Message 2 of 15 , Jan 31, 2005
        Hi, Lorenzo,

        Looking for translated works of Procopius and Cassiodorus, this is
        what I've found by "googling" the web:

        Procopiu's Secret History in English:
        http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/basis/procop-anec.html

        Regarding Cassiodorus, no complete translation in English.
        Translated fragments:
        Variae 4.51: http://www.theaterofpompey.com/auditorium/pa-
        sources/cassiodorus-4-51.html
        Excerpts from Variae:
        http://www.deremilitari.org/RESOURCES/SOURCES/cassiodorus.htm
        Excerpts from Institutiones:
        http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/jod/texts/cass.inst.html

        Cassiodorus in Latin:
        http://www.thelatinlibrary.com/cassiodorus.html
        http://www.gmu.edu/departments/fld/CLASSICS/cassiodorus.variae.html
        http://www.intratext.com/Catalogo/Autori/Aut58.HTM
        The Variae: http://freespace.virgin.net/angus.graham/Cassiodorus.htm
        The Variae etc.: http://www.forumromanum.org/literature/table.html

        Secondary source about Cassiodorus: O'Donnell's "Cassiodorus":
        http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/jod/texts/cassbook/toc.html
        http://www.ptsem.edu/grow/library/nyatla/cassiodorus/toc.htm

        Regarding Amalaswintha, this name means rather "strength of the
        Amals" or "strong (lady) of the Amals", since swintha is the feminine
        form of the adjective swinths "strong, physically powerful".

        Best regards,
        Francisc



        --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, yafet_rasnal@y... wrote:
        >
        >
        > Hello Francisc
        > thank you for yr nice words. Do you know where i could find online
        > translated works of Procopius and Cassiodorus? I already found
        > Jordanes. I think i will include the latin works and if i will find
        > them and have authorizations, also the english translations.
        > Moreover can anyone tell me the exact spelling of
        > ostrogoths/visigoths/gepids/vandals kings? And maybe explain me the
        > meaning of their names? I just know that Amalaswintha means virgin
        of
        > the Amals.
        > Thanx
        >
        > Lorenzo
        >
        >...
      • yafet_rasnal@yahoo.com
        Hello Francisc, thank you very much for your research. i Would need Cassiodorus, Variae I.X for a reference about the coinage. i will check between the links
        Message 3 of 15 , Jan 31, 2005
          Hello Francisc, thank you very much for your research. i Would need
          Cassiodorus, Variae I.X for a reference about the coinage. i will
          check between the links you gave me.
          So if swintha refers to strenght, what is the meaning of Mataswintha?
          Can anybody tell me the gothic form of these names and, if it's not
          too boring, also their meaning

          Theodoricus
          Athalaricus
          Amalasuntha = Amalaswintha = the strenght of the amals
          Eraricus
          Matasuntha
          Theodahatus
          Witiges
          Ildibaldus
          Baduila
          Totila = (if i remember well it's "the immortal")
          Theia
          Sorry for being so boring but i have no books to search on.
          Thanx

          Lorenzo

          --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "Francisc Czobor" <fericzobor@y...>
          wrote:
          >
          > Hi, Lorenzo,
          >
          > Looking for translated works of Procopius and Cassiodorus, this is
          > what I've found by "googling" the web:
          >
          > Procopiu's Secret History in English:
          > http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/basis/procop-anec.html
          >
          > Regarding Cassiodorus, no complete translation in English.
          > Translated fragments:
          > Variae 4.51: http://www.theaterofpompey.com/auditorium/pa-
          > sources/cassiodorus-4-51.html
          > Excerpts from Variae:
          > http://www.deremilitari.org/RESOURCES/SOURCES/cassiodorus.htm
          > Excerpts from Institutiones:
          > http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/jod/texts/cass.inst.html
          >
          > Cassiodorus in Latin:
          > http://www.thelatinlibrary.com/cassiodorus.html
          > http://www.gmu.edu/departments/fld/CLASSICS/cassiodorus.variae.html
          > http://www.intratext.com/Catalogo/Autori/Aut58.HTM
          > The Variae: http://freespace.virgin.net/angus.graham/Cassiodorus.htm
          > The Variae etc.: http://www.forumromanum.org/literature/table.html
          >
          > Secondary source about Cassiodorus: O'Donnell's "Cassiodorus":
          > http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/jod/texts/cassbook/toc.html
          > http://www.ptsem.edu/grow/library/nyatla/cassiodorus/toc.htm
          >
          > Regarding Amalaswintha, this name means rather "strength of the
          > Amals" or "strong (lady) of the Amals", since swintha is the feminine
          > form of the adjective swinths "strong, physically powerful".
          >
          > Best regards,
          > Francisc
          >
          >
          >
          > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, yafet_rasnal@y... wrote:
          > >
          > >
          > > Hello Francisc
          > > thank you for yr nice words. Do you know where i could find online
          > > translated works of Procopius and Cassiodorus? I already found
          > > Jordanes. I think i will include the latin works and if i will find
          > > them and have authorizations, also the english translations.
          > > Moreover can anyone tell me the exact spelling of
          > > ostrogoths/visigoths/gepids/vandals kings? And maybe explain me the
          > > meaning of their names? I just know that Amalaswintha means virgin
          > of
          > > the Amals.
          > > Thanx
          > >
          > > Lorenzo
          > >
          > >...
        • Francisc Czobor
          Hello, Lorenzo A list of attested Gothic names, with indication of etymology, you can find in Annex 3 of Koeblers Gotisches Wörterbuch: Gotische Namen
          Message 4 of 15 , Feb 1, 2005
            Hello, Lorenzo

            A list of attested Gothic names, with indication of etymology, you
            can find in Annex 3 of Koeblers Gotisches Wörterbuch: "Gotische Namen"
            (http://www.koeblergerhard.de/germanistischewoerterbuecher/gotischeswo
            erterbuch/GotischeNamen.pdf)
            There is also a good site: "Gothic Names"
            (http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Salon/2385/gothnames.html)
            which gives exactly what you need: the significance of the Gothic
            name elements.
            Using these sources, the names listed by you could be explained as
            follows:

            Theodoricus: thiuda- "people" + reiks "ruler / king"
            Athalaricus: athala- "noble" + reiks "ruler / king"
            Amalasuntha = Amalaswintha: Amala + swintha "strong" (fem.)
            Eraricus: era- (aira-) ? (air "early" or era "era" ??) +
            reiks "ruler / king"
            Matasuntha: ? mahta- "mighty" or matha "good" + swintha "strong"
            (fem.)
            Theodahatus: thiuda- "people" + hathus "fight, struggle, battle"
            Witiges: weiti "punishment" + geis < geisls "hostage"
            Ildibaldus: hildi- "war" + badws "war"
            Baduila: badw- "war" + -ila (diminutive suffix)
            Totila: unknown etymology; in any case, a diminutive (because of the
            ending –ila)
            Theia: probably a diminutive from an unknown full form

            Best regards,
            Francisc
          • OSCAR HERRERA
            whats the word for would....ist wesith thau hwa....wes ist waurd faur were...samaain gatiehan mis....thagkam OSCAR HERRERA wrote: who
            Message 5 of 15 , Feb 1, 2005
              whats the word for would....ist wesith thau hwa....wes ist waurd faur were...samaain gatiehan mis....thagkam

              OSCAR HERRERA <duke.co@...> wrote:
              who were the amals...also when you use would,like for instance were is wes , so is would wesith....you could use skuld or should ,but would and should are different words....oscar herr

              brianbeck_au wrote:

              --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, yafet_rasnal@y... wrote:
              > ostrogoths/visigoths/gepids/vandals kings? And maybe explain me the
              > meaning of their names? I just know that Amalaswintha means virgin
              of
              > the Amals.
              > Thanx
              >
              > Lorenzo
              Hi Lorenzo,
              I believe Amalaswintha actually means "Strength of the Amals" < G.
              swinths, strong (cf. O.E. sw�th, strong).
              Cheers,
              Brian Beck






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            • Francisc Czobor
              In my previous mail, I missread Ildibaldus as Ildibadus and analyzed the word as hildi- war + badws war . In fact it is: Ildibaldus: hildi- war + balths
              Message 6 of 15 , Feb 2, 2005
                In my previous mail, I missread Ildibaldus as "Ildibadus" and
                analyzed the word as hildi- "war" + badws "war".
                In fact it is:
                Ildibaldus: hildi- "war" + balths / bald- "bold"

                Francisc
              • yafet_rasnal@yahoo.com
                Thank you very much. it s really interesting Lorenzo
                Message 7 of 15 , Feb 2, 2005
                  Thank you very much. it's really interesting

                  Lorenzo

                  --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "Francisc Czobor" <fericzobor@y...>
                  wrote:
                  >
                  > Hello, Lorenzo
                  >
                  > A list of attested Gothic names, with indication of etymology, you
                  > can find in Annex 3 of Koeblers Gotisches Wörterbuch: "Gotische Namen"
                  > (http://www.koeblergerhard.de/germanistischewoerterbuecher/gotischeswo
                  > erterbuch/GotischeNamen.pdf)
                  > There is also a good site: "Gothic Names"
                  > (http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Salon/2385/gothnames.html)
                  > which gives exactly what you need: the significance of the Gothic
                  > name elements.
                  > Using these sources, the names listed by you could be explained as
                  > follows:
                  >
                  > Theodoricus: thiuda- "people" + reiks "ruler / king"
                  > Athalaricus: athala- "noble" + reiks "ruler / king"
                  > Amalasuntha = Amalaswintha: Amala + swintha "strong" (fem.)
                  > Eraricus: era- (aira-) ? (air "early" or era "era" ??) +
                  > reiks "ruler / king"
                  > Matasuntha: ? mahta- "mighty" or matha "good" + swintha "strong"
                  > (fem.)
                  > Theodahatus: thiuda- "people" + hathus "fight, struggle, battle"
                  > Witiges: weiti "punishment" + geis < geisls "hostage"
                  > Ildibaldus: hildi- "war" + badws "war"
                  > Baduila: badw- "war" + -ila (diminutive suffix)
                  > Totila: unknown etymology; in any case, a diminutive (because of the
                  > ending –ila)
                  > Theia: probably a diminutive from an unknown full form
                  >
                  > Best regards,
                  > Francisc
                • llama_nom
                  ... faur were...samaain gatiehan mis....thagkam ... were is wes , so is would wesith....you could use skuld or should ,but would and should are different
                  Message 8 of 15 , Feb 4, 2005
                    --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, OSCAR HERRERA <duke.co@s...> wrote:
                    > whats the word for would....ist wesith thau hwa....wes ist waurd
                    faur were...samaain gatiehan mis....thagkam
                    >
                    > OSCAR HERRERA <duke.co@s...> wrote:
                    > who were the amals...also when you use would,like for instance
                    were is wes , so is would wesith....you could use skuld or
                    should ,but would and should are different words....oscar herr


                    Hi Oscar,

                    For a table of verbal inflections in Gothic and related languages:

                    http://titus.fkidg1.uni-frankfurt.de/didact/idg/germ/gotverb.htm

                    In English, the words "would" and "should" each have a number of
                    different uses, which would be translated in different ways into
                    Gothic. Often "would" is not represented by a separate word in
                    Gothic, but by a change in the form of the verb, usually the past
                    subjunctive (sometimes "past" is also called "preterite", and some
                    people call the "subjunctive" the "optative"--but in Gothic these
                    refer to the same thing).

                    Simple statements are usually in the indicative mood: WAS "it was";
                    but the subjunctive mood expresses doubt, uncertainty WESI "it would
                    have been". WESUN "they were"; WESEINA "they would have been".
                    TAWIDEDUN "they did"; TAWIDEDEINA "they would do / have done". Just
                    as there are indicative endings for past tense and present, in both
                    active and passive voices, so there are past active & passive
                    subjunctive endings and present active and passive ones.

                    Some examples:

                    WOULD

                    1) hypothetical: "that WOULD have gone against what is appropriate"
                    (if he did that, but he didn't, so it's just hypothetical, an
                    imaginary possibility).

                    3) possibility (whether): "they watched him to see if he WOULD heal
                    on the sabbath so that they could accuse him" (he might yet do, but
                    so far we just don't know).

                    3) intentional: "and many made threats to him SO THAT HE WOULD BE
                    SILENT" (or: ...to be silent / ...that he should be quiet / warned
                    him to be quiet, etc).

                    4) concessive (then, in that case--accompanying an "if"
                    clause): "WOULD it not then seem...?"

                    5) future in past: "for he WOULD betray him" = he was going to
                    betray him (but this hadn't happened yet at this time in the story).


                    1) þatuh wesi wiþra þata gadob
                    2) jah witaidedun imma hailidediu sabbato daga, ei wrohidedeina ina
                    3) ei þahaidedi
                    4) ni auk þuhtedi þau...
                    5) sa auk habaida ina galewjan


                    Things to note:

                    1 and 3, "would" is represented not by a separate word, but by a
                    change of inflection in the verb to the subjunctive mood,
                    specifically the past subjunctive. Thus: WAS WIÞRA ÞATA GADOB "it
                    was inappropriate"; WESI "it would have been". The subjunctive has
                    various uses besides this, connected with the idea of uncertainty or
                    unreality or wishing/intention: maht wesi frabugjan "it could have
                    been sold" (but it wasn't); nih qemjau jah rodidedjau du im,
                    frawaurht ni habaidedeina "if I hadn't come and spoken to them, they
                    WOULDN'T have had sin".

                    2 also uses the subjunctive, but with the addition of the
                    interrogative particle -u. The quote is from Mark; Luke's gospel
                    expresses it in a slightly different way: witaidedunuh þan þai
                    bokarjos jah Fareisaieis, jau in sabbato daga leikinodedi, ei
                    bigeteina til du wrohjan ina "now the scribes and Pharasees kept a
                    watch to see if he WOULD heal on the sabbath, so that they
                    WOULD/might/could have a chance to accuse him".

                    In 4, the concessive particle ÞAU would probably come nearer the
                    front of the clause if it wasn't for the other particle AUK. E.g.
                    iþ weseis her, ni þau gadauþnodedi broþar meins "if you had been
                    here, then my brother would not have died"; jabai allis Mose
                    galaubidedeiþ, ga-þau-laubidedeiþ mis "if you had believed Moses,
                    then you would have believed me". ÞAU can be omitted in the "then"
                    clause, whether the "if" clause is introduced by IÞ or JABAI or
                    simply a subjunctive verb as in the example NIH QEMJAU... above.

                    5, future in past, is a compound tense formed with an infinitive
                    verb + the past tense of haban "to have".

                    The subjunctive is also used in various other circumsatnces where
                    English has "would" expressing uncertainty, e.g. "we went to see
                    what he would do" (MADE UP EXAMPLE, TREAT WITH CAUTION: iddjedum ei
                    gasehveima hva tawidedi; iddjedum gasaihvan hva wesi þatei tawidedi--
                    or something like that maybe), and requests "would you
                    [please]...?". In fact the irregular verb WILJAN "want" only has
                    subjunctive-like forms: WILJAU "I want/like, I would like".


                    SHOULD

                    This is often expressed with the Gothic verb SKULAN, e.g. skulum
                    weis "we should / ought to".

                    Obligation "should" or "must" can sometimes be expressed with the
                    combination of neuter past participle of skulan + the verb "to be"--
                    SKULD IST +dative, e.g. skuld ist unsis "we must/should... / we are
                    obliged / have a duty to" + infinitive. Ni skuld ist unsis "we
                    should not / are not allowed to / it is not right for us to..." +
                    infinitive.

                    The passive is similar, except that SKULD is inflected for person
                    and number: allai weis ataugjan skuldai sijum faura stauastola
                    Xristaus "...we must all be shown [i.e. appear] before the judgement
                    seat of Christ"; sunus mans skulds ist atgiban in handuns manne "the
                    son of man must be given into the hands of men".

                    I've used "must" here, but it's easy to see how such constructions
                    might be equivalent to English "should", for example in indirect
                    speech, perhaps with Gothic subjunctives. If MAHT WESI FRABUGJAN
                    = "it could have been sold", presumably SKULD WESI = "it should have
                    been". I can't think of an example of this right now...

                    Llama Nom
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