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Pronouns and other questions

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  • seitokojiro
    Hi, I be been learning Gothic on and off for a few years and I ve got a few questions. 1) How do you know whether to use pronouns (like is, ita, si) and their
    Message 1 of 8 , Dec 11, 2004
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      Hi, I'be been learning Gothic on and off for a few years and I've got
      a few questions.

      1) How do you know whether to use pronouns (like is, ita, si) and
      their respective demonstrative pronouns (sa, thata, so) when refering
      back to someone or something aforementioned? It seems that they are
      almost interchangeable sometimes. Is there some circumstance, for
      example, where 'thai' would be preferable to 'eis', or is it simply a
      matter of preference?

      2) I've been searching through the list archives and I can't seem to
      find David Salo's 11th lesson. I remember coming across it sometime
      before, but I may be mistaken. Did he even get up to lesson 11?

      3) Would the s -> z change take place in masculine stems that end
      is 's' therefore lacking the nom sing 's'? I'm not quite sure how to
      decline them, which of these paradigms would be correct?
      hals halzos
      hals halzans
      halzis halze
      halza halzam
      or
      hals halsos
      hals halsans
      halsis halse
      halsa halsam

      and

      runs runseis
      runs runsins
      runsis runse
      runsa runsim
      or
      runs runzeis
      runs runzins
      runzis runze
      runza runzim

      4) I'm also having trouble with 'naus'. Is this paradigm correct?

      naus naweis
      naus nawins
      nawis nawe
      nawa nawim

      I think that's it for now. Thanks.

      -Mike
    • Francisc Czobor
      Hi, Mike, on David Salo s Lessons site (http://members.terracom.net/~dorothea/david/gothic/), there are 11 lessons listed, but only the first 8 are active.
      Message 2 of 8 , Dec 20, 2004
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        Hi, Mike,

        on David Salo's Lessons site
        (http://members.terracom.net/~dorothea/david/gothic/), there are 11
        lessons listed, but only the first 8 are active.

        Francisc

        --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "seitokojiro" <MRemick01@a...> wrote:
        >
        >
        > ...
        >
        > 2) I've been searching through the list archives and I can't seem
        to
        > find David Salo's 11th lesson. I remember coming across it sometime
        > before, but I may be mistaken. Did he even get up to lesson 11?
        >
        > ...
      • Fredrik
        ... to ... At http://www.gotisch.de/ you may find some more of the lessons but it is in german.
        Message 3 of 8 , Dec 20, 2004
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          --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "seitokojiro" <MRemick01@a...> wrote:

          >
          > 2) I've been searching through the list archives and I can't seem
          to
          > find David Salo's 11th lesson. I remember coming across it sometime
          > before, but I may be mistaken. Did he even get up to lesson 11?
          >

          At http://www.gotisch.de/ you may find some more of the lessons but
          it is in german.
        • llama_nom
          Hi Mike, *hals *halsos hals *halsans *halsis *halse (frei)halsa *halsam Braune/Helm Gotische Grammatik cites _halsis_, but I can t
          Message 4 of 8 , Dec 20, 2004
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            Hi Mike,

            *hals *halsos
            hals *halsans
            *halsis *halse
            (frei)halsa *halsam

            Braune/Helm "Gotische Grammatik" cites _halsis_, but I can't seem to
            find that. But dat.sg. _freihalsa_ clears things up. Another clue
            is the fact that other Germanic languages have -s- rather than -r-
            here.

            runs *runeis
            run *runins
            *runis *rune
            runa *runim

            Here the -s is just the nom.sg. inflection, and not part of the
            root, cf. OE ryne.

            naus naweis
            *nau nawins
            *nawis *nawe
            *nawa *nawim

            Exactly as you had it, except that acc.sg. would have no ending.
            The form _nawis_ is recorded, but only as the f.nom.sg. of an i-stem
            adjective.

            For nominatives ending -s, where the sibilant is part of the root,
            there is no general rule: some words have -z- in oblique cases,
            others -s-. To see what is actually attested, you can search the
            Gothic corpus here:

            http://www.wulfila.be/Corpus/Search.html

            Or look in Gerhard Koebler's dictionary, which gives all forms of
            the word that occur as well as etymological information:

            http://www.koeblergerhard.de/publikat.html

            If doubts remain, the next step would be to compare cognate words in
            other old Germanic languages. GK's site has a lot of other useful
            dictionaries--although some only have definitions in German. You
            might also find something of interest in amongst this lot (my page
            of Gothic links):

            http://www.oe.eclipse.co.uk/nom/linkspage.htm

            But the comparative method doesn't always work, for example Gothic
            dat.sg. nauþai, gen.sg. bloþis--where the equivalent forms in West
            Germanic have -d- (or later developments thereof).


            Incidentally, the nominal inflection -s itself goes back to
            Germanic -z, as can be seen from Old Norse. With enclitic
            particles, Gothic fluctuates

            sumanzuh
            sumzuþ-þan
            bijandzuþ-þan

            sumsuh

            Even in the same sentence:

            jah silba gaf sumans apaustauluns, sumanzuþ-þan praufetuns, sumansuþ-
            þan aiwaggelistans, sumansuþ-þan hairdjans jah laisarjans,
            (Eph 7,11)


            I wonder how the statistics compare...

            Llama Nom




            --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "seitokojiro" <MRemick01@a...>
            wrote:
            >
            >
            > Hi, I'be been learning Gothic on and off for a few years and I've
            got
            > a few questions.
            >
            > 1) How do you know whether to use pronouns (like is, ita, si) and
            > their respective demonstrative pronouns (sa, thata, so) when
            refering
            > back to someone or something aforementioned? It seems that they
            are
            > almost interchangeable sometimes. Is there some circumstance, for
            > example, where 'thai' would be preferable to 'eis', or is it
            simply a
            > matter of preference?
            >
            > 2) I've been searching through the list archives and I can't seem
            to
            > find David Salo's 11th lesson. I remember coming across it
            sometime
            > before, but I may be mistaken. Did he even get up to lesson 11?
            >
            > 3) Would the s -> z change take place in masculine stems that end
            > is 's' therefore lacking the nom sing 's'? I'm not quite sure how
            to
            > decline them, which of these paradigms would be correct?
            > hals halzos
            > hals halzans
            > halzis halze
            > halza halzam
            > or
            > hals halsos
            > hals halsans
            > halsis halse
            > halsa halsam
            >
            > and
            >
            > runs runseis
            > runs runsins
            > runsis runse
            > runsa runsim
            > or
            > runs runzeis
            > runs runzins
            > runzis runze
            > runza runzim
            >
            > 4) I'm also having trouble with 'naus'. Is this paradigm correct?
            >
            > naus naweis
            > naus nawins
            > nawis nawe
            > nawa nawim
            >
            > I think that's it for now. Thanks.
            >
            > -Mike
          • llama_nom
            ... refering ... are ... simply a ... Good question. I d like to know this too. Both can translate Gk. autos, so the variation is presumably a feature of
            Message 5 of 8 , Dec 20, 2004
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              --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "seitokojiro" <MRemick01@a...>
              wrote:

              > 1) How do you know whether to use pronouns (like is, ita, si) and
              > their respective demonstrative pronouns (sa, thata, so) when
              refering
              > back to someone or something aforementioned? It seems that they
              are
              > almost interchangeable sometimes. Is there some circumstance, for
              > example, where 'thai' would be preferable to 'eis', or is it
              simply a
              > matter of preference?
              >

              Good question. I'd like to know this too. Both can translate Gk.
              autos, so the variation is presumably a feature of Gothic. Both can
              appear where English has "he". Sometimes _sa_ looks like it might
              be a bit more emphatic, while _is_ might imply more familiarity with
              the person on the part of the reader, but other times I can't really
              see the difference. In the gospel narratives is _sa_ reserved for
              newly encountered people, or relatively newly mentioned people, do
              you think? I can't recall _sa_ being applied with the meaning "he"
              to Jesus in the middle of the narrative of his travels.

              It might be stylistic sometimes though--there might be a grey area
              in the middle of the Venn diagram of sa/is where either is
              acceptable--or maybe I just haven't figured it out yet. Without
              being able to give any rules, Gothic seems to me similar in this way
              to Old English and Old Norse, both of which can have þæt/þat, etc.
              in some circumstances where MnE has "it" rather than "that". But
              I'd like to know more.

              Mk 1,25 jah andbait ina Iesus qiþands: þahai jah usgagg ut us þamma,
              ahma unhrainja.
              26 jah tahida ina...jah...usiddja us imma

              Mk 1,30 iþ swaihro Seimonis lag in brinnon: jah suns qeþun ina bi
              ija.
              31 jah duatgaggands urraisida þo undgreipands handos izos, jah
              aflaitot þo so brinnon suns, jah andbahtida im.

              In the first of these examples _þamma_ seems emphatic, but in the
              second _þo_ no more so than _ija_. When qualified by an adjective
              or some qualifying phrase, þai = Gk. hoi, English "those" (þai miþ
              imma, etc.).

              Llama Nom

              PS. I don´t know if this is useful to you, but you can download the
              Gothis corpus here

              http://www.wulfila.be/gothic/download/
            • llama_nom
              ... ...by the narrator, I mean. Other people do, but that might be because they ve just started talking about him, or are expressing less familiarity: who is
              Message 6 of 8 , Dec 21, 2004
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                > I can't recall _sa_ being applied with the meaning "he"
                > to Jesus in the middle of the narrative of his travels.


                ...by the narrator, I mean. Other people do, but that might be
                because they've just started talking about him, or are expressing
                less familiarity: who is that man? I wonder how Gothic compares
                with modern German on this point. I think you can use der/die/das
                sometimes where English has he/she/it...

                Llama Nom




                --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <600cell@o...> wrote:
                >
                > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "seitokojiro" <MRemick01@a...>
                > wrote:
                >
                > > 1) How do you know whether to use pronouns (like is, ita, si)
                and
                > > their respective demonstrative pronouns (sa, thata, so) when
                > refering
                > > back to someone or something aforementioned? It seems that they
                > are
                > > almost interchangeable sometimes. Is there some circumstance,
                for
                > > example, where 'thai' would be preferable to 'eis', or is it
                > simply a
                > > matter of preference?
                > >
                >
                > Good question. I'd like to know this too. Both can translate Gk.
                > autos, so the variation is presumably a feature of Gothic. Both
                can
                > appear where English has "he". Sometimes _sa_ looks like it might
                > be a bit more emphatic, while _is_ might imply more familiarity
                with
                > the person on the part of the reader, but other times I can't
                really
                > see the difference. In the gospel narratives is _sa_ reserved for
                > newly encountered people, or relatively newly mentioned people, do
                > you think? I can't recall _sa_ being applied with the
                meaning "he"
                > to Jesus in the middle of the narrative of his travels.
                >
                > It might be stylistic sometimes though--there might be a grey area
                > in the middle of the Venn diagram of sa/is where either is
                > acceptable--or maybe I just haven't figured it out yet. Without
                > being able to give any rules, Gothic seems to me similar in this
                way
                > to Old English and Old Norse, both of which can have þæt/þat, etc.
                > in some circumstances where MnE has "it" rather than "that". But
                > I'd like to know more.
                >
                > Mk 1,25 jah andbait ina Iesus qiþands: þahai jah usgagg ut us
                þamma,
                > ahma unhrainja.
                > 26 jah tahida ina...jah...usiddja us imma
                >
                > Mk 1,30 iþ swaihro Seimonis lag in brinnon: jah suns qeþun ina bi
                > ija.
                > 31 jah duatgaggands urraisida þo undgreipands handos izos, jah
                > aflaitot þo so brinnon suns, jah andbahtida im.
                >
                > In the first of these examples _þamma_ seems emphatic, but in the
                > second _þo_ no more so than _ija_. When qualified by an adjective
                > or some qualifying phrase, þai = Gk. hoi, English "those" (þai miþ
                > imma, etc.).
                >
                > Llama Nom
                >
                > PS. I don´t know if this is useful to you, but you can download
                the
                > Gothis corpus here
                >
                > http://www.wulfila.be/gothic/download/
              • Budelberger, Richard
                ... De : llama_nom À : Envoyé : lundi 20 décembre 2004 19:37 Objet : [gothic-l] Re: Pronouns and other
                Message 7 of 8 , Dec 25, 2004
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                  ----- Message d'origine -----
                  De : llama_nom <600cell@...>
                  À : <gothic-l@yahoogroups.com>
                  Envoyé : lundi 20 décembre 2004 19:37
                  Objet : [gothic-l] Re: Pronouns and other questions

                  > You might also find something of interest in amongst this lot
                  > (my page of Gothic links):
                  >
                  > http://www.oe.eclipse.co.uk/nom/linkspage.htm


                  Sean is only /Crist/ !.. :

                  Sean *Christ's* Indo-European Language Resources
                  (The Germanic Lexicon Project): a wealth of material
                  including Heyne's dictionary (Gothic-German), Balg's
                  'Comparative Glossary of the Gothic Language', Wright's
                  'Grammar of the Gothic Language' & Braune's
                  'Gotische Grammatik' + grammars and dictionaries for
                  Old Icelandic, Old English, and many more...
                  http://www.ling.upenn.edu/~kurisuto/germanic/language_resources.html


                  Sean *Christ's* Indo-European Language Resources / The Germanic
                  Lexicon Project: As well as the Gothic books mentioned above, this
                  has the Anglo-Saxon dictionaries of Bosworth & Toller, and of JR Clark Hall,
                  and the Icelandic dictionaries of Cleasby & Vigfusson, and Zoega, together
                  with works on Old Saxon, Old High German, Old Frisian, etc.
                  http://www.ling.upenn.edu/~kurisuto/germanic/language_resources.html


                  Anglo-Saxon dictionaries of Bosworth & Toller, and of JR Clark Hall,
                  together with works on Old Norse, Old Saxon, Old High German,
                  Old Frisian, etc. at Sean *Christ's* Indo-European Language Resources:
                  http://www.ling.upenn.edu/~kurisuto/germanic/language_resources.html


                  Budelberger, Richard.
                • llama_nom
                  ... Thanks Richard, Links page duly corrected. And one rather spectacular new link added: The Codex Argenteus Online (Uppsala University Library, a freely
                  Message 8 of 8 , Dec 29, 2004
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                    --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "Budelberger, Richard"
                    <budelberger.richard@9...> wrote:

                    > > http://www.oe.eclipse.co.uk/nom/linkspage.htm
                    >
                    >
                    > Sean is only /Crist/ !.. :
                    >
                    > Sean *Christ's* Indo-European Language Resources
                    > (The Germanic Lexicon Project)...


                    Thanks Richard,

                    Links page duly corrected. And one rather spectacular new link
                    added:

                    The Codex Argenteus Online (Uppsala University Library, a freely
                    available digital version of the 1927 facsimile edition)

                    http://www.ub.uu.se/arv/codex/faksimiledition/contents.html

                    Llama Nom
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