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Re: SV: [gothic-l] Hansa

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  • faltin2001
    ... der ... does not pop ... That is not quite correct I am afraid. As pointed out earlier, the word is used in the Gothic bible and it is also mentioned as
    Message 1 of 19 , Nov 19, 2004
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      --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "WILHELM OTTO" <wilhelm.otto@s...>
      wrote:
      >
      > Hi Terje,
      > Cabor wrote:
      > as Tore already pointed out, "Hansa" is a common Germanic word, the
      > reconstructed form being *hanso
      >
      > Tore Gannholm wrote:
      > Die Engländer kannten
      > diese Bezeichnung freliich schon viel länger als Bezeichnung für
      > freiwillige Zusammenschlüsse von Händlern auf fremden Märkten: In
      der
      > «flandrischen Hanse von London» hatten sich Kaufleute aus Ypern,
      > Brügge, Lille und anderen flännschen Städten zusammengeschlossen.
      >
      > The word is common, it is known "all over the world", and still
      does not pop
      > up until 1267 and does so in London.




      That is not quite correct I am afraid. As pointed out earlier, the
      word is used in the Gothic bible and it is also mentioned as
      components in German words like Hansagraf, which was a public office
      in the South Gemran town of Regensburg mentioned in the 12th century.

      Cheers
      Dirk
    • WILHELM OTTO
      Hi Dirk Dirk wrote: That is not quite correct I am afraid. As pointed out earlier, the word is used in the Gothic bible and it is also mentioned as components
      Message 2 of 19 , Nov 19, 2004
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        Hi Dirk
        Dirk wrote:
        That is not quite correct I am afraid. As pointed out earlier, the
        word is used in the Gothic bible and it is also mentioned as
        components in German words like Hansagraf, which was a public office
        in the South Gemran town of Regensburg mentioned in the 12th century.

        Thanks a lot. You are probably right and I am accepting your view. But,
        being a bit stubborn, are there not a few hundred unaccounted years? St.
        Hanse/Hans guilds in Denmark/Gothland/Visby connected with trade of furs on
        Novgorod and Regensburg in the 12:th century. Are these two points of view
        really excluding each other? I do not know myself.
        Cheers
        Wilhelm
      • Francisc Czobor
        ... My name is not Cabor . My first name is Francisc, and my last name is Czobor. This etymology for German Hanse (i.e., MLG hanse from Common-Gmc *hanso:,
        Message 3 of 19 , Nov 19, 2004
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          --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "WILHELM OTTO" <wilhelm.otto@s...>
          wrote:
          >
          > Hi Terje,
          > Cabor wrote:
          > as Tore already pointed out, "Hansa" is a common Germanic word, the
          > reconstructed form being *hanso
          > ...

          My name is not "Cabor". My first name is Francisc, and my last name
          is Czobor.
          This etymology for German Hanse (i.e., MLG hanse from Common-Gmc
          *hanso:, whence also Got. hansa, OHG hansa, OE hós, the basic meaning
          being "group of (armed) people") I have found in several etymological
          dictionaries. Please note that in MLG the meaning shifted
          to "fellowship, merchants' guild". According to the "Online Etymology
          Dictionary" (http://www.etymonline.com/index.php): "M.E. borrowed
          hanse from O.Fr. hanse, M.L. hansa (both from O.H.G.) in sense of "a
          company of merchants" (1199)."

          Francisc Czobor
        • Tore Gannholm
          ... Please don t include Gotland, The word Hanse does not appear in the middel Baltic until after 1356 Tore ... [Non-text portions of this message have been
          Message 4 of 19 , Nov 19, 2004
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            On Nov 19, 2004, at 1:50 PM, WILHELM OTTO wrote:

            >
            > Hi Dirk
            > Dirk wrote:
            > That is not quite correct I am afraid. As pointed out earlier, the
            > word is used in the Gothic bible and it is also mentioned as
            > components in German words like Hansagraf, which was a public office
            > in the South Gemran town of Regensburg mentioned in the 12th century.
            >
            > Thanks a lot. You are probably right and I am accepting your view.
            > But,
            > being a bit stubborn, are there not a few hundred unaccounted years?�
            > St.
            > Hanse/Hans guilds in Denmark/Gothland/Visby

            Please don't include Gotland, The word Hanse does not appear in the
            middel Baltic until after 1356

            Tore

            > connected with trade of furs on
            > Novgorod and Regensburg in the 12:th century. Are these two points of
            > view
            > really excluding each other? I do not know myself.
            > Cheers
            > Wilhelm
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
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            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • faltin2001
            ... the ... office ... century. ... view. ... years?  ... Hi Tore, I don t want to repeat an old discussion, but I think it is important to note that German
            Message 5 of 19 , Nov 22, 2004
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              --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Tore Gannholm <tore@g...> wrote:
              >
              > On Nov 19, 2004, at 1:50 PM, WILHELM OTTO wrote:
              >
              > >
              > > Hi Dirk
              > > Dirk wrote:
              > > That is not quite correct I am afraid. As pointed out earlier,
              the
              > > word is used in the Gothic bible and it is also mentioned as
              > > components in German words like Hansagraf, which was a public
              office
              > > in the South Gemran town of Regensburg mentioned in the 12th
              century.
              > >
              > > Thanks a lot. You are probably right and I am accepting your
              view.
              > > But,
              > > being a bit stubborn, are there not a few hundred unaccounted
              years? 
              > > St.
              > > Hanse/Hans guilds in Denmark/Gothland/Visby
              >
              > Please don't include Gotland, The word Hanse does not appear in the
              > middel Baltic until after 1356
              >
              > Tore


              Hi Tore,

              I don't want to repeat an old discussion, but I think it is important
              to note that German merchants visited Gotland since 1161, when
              the 'Union of German merchants visiting Gotland' was founded. The
              German word for 'union' is Hanse/Hansa and this Union of merchants
              would certainly have been called Hansa by its members. Thus,
              documents in Bardowik, Lueneburg and further to the west Lemgo call
              the Union of German merchants in Gotland' 'chense/henze', i.e. Hanse
              already in the 13th century. The town of Lemgo sought representation
              by a chenzeman (Hansa man) in 1295 for its trade in Norrbys
              Gotland. In 1191/92 the German merchants union set up a contor in
              Nowgorod and this early Hansa is usually called the merchants' Hansa,
              as opposed to the cities Hansa which was founded in 1356/58 and
              called 'stede van der dudeschen hense', i.e. 'towns of the German
              Hansa'.

              http://www.dsm.de/Pubs/20_18.htm

              The Luebeck merchants guilt financed the founding of many Baltic
              cities like Riga (1201) and Reval. It had set up its own contor in
              Nowgorod in 1191/92 and founded the Peterhof there in the first
              decades of the 13th century. When the merchants Hansa was transformed
              into a cities' Hansa in 1356/58 the assets of the merchants Hansa
              formed the basis for the new union (hansa) of cities.

              Again, I know Tore does not agree and he argues that the German word
              Hansa was used for German merchants in the Baltic sea only since 1358
              and was thus limited only for German merchants operating in the North
              Sea, London, Paris, Flanders etc..

              Cheers
              Dirk
            • WILHELM OTTO
              Dear Francisc, Tore, Dirk and others, Let us sum up our position of the word Hansa/Hanse. The word is used in the Gothic Bible translated by Wulfila about 370
              Message 6 of 19 , Nov 22, 2004
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                Dear Francisc, Tore, Dirk and others,
                Let us sum up our position of the word Hansa/Hanse.

                The word is used in the Gothic Bible translated by Wulfila about 370
                The word is used in the title Hansa Graf in Regensburg 12 century
                The word is used in London in connection with a Flemish Hanse from London
                1267
                The word Hanse does not appear in the middle Baltic until after 1356
                So far the Gothic list members. Thanks a lot for the help.

                There are a few complicating factors.
                One is that at first it is used of tradesmen, and later as a groupword for
                merchant towns. Some towns contained hanseatic tradesmen, and did a lot of
                trade, but were not hanseatic towns, Bergen, Stockholm. Later a group of
                towns were formally organised as a Hanse, with an organisational
                constitution and such paraphernalia.
                "London's Cannon Street Station was formerly the site of the hanseatic
                steel-yard, and remained hanseatic property until 1853." (Heer p. 64.) So it
                was a long-lived organisation.
                The origin seems to be a company of traders calling themselves "Gotland
                merchants of the Holy Roman German Empire or something the like. In the
                beginning they cooperated with the Gotland farming merchants (farbönder) on
                the Novgorod trade.
                There are traces in Visby of an old wall encircling at least three church
                ruins, and two profane buildings, an old town hall and the oldest profane
                building in Scandinavia, the "Gunpowder tower" just at the entrance of the
                harbour. This small town is conservatively dated about 1000. It is probable
                that there lived Gotland tradesmen, Russians and Germans. The Germans built
                their quarters to the south.
                1293 was the office for Novgorod trade moved from Visby to Lübeck.

                Here were a lot of people doing a lot of work and by no means keeping to
                themselves. And people are usually called something. There are two
                descriptive names for these traders. They differ those who stayed the winter
                from them coming back next season; mercatrores frequentes and mercatores
                manentes respectively.

                I am telling this because if you should happen to see The Lone Trader, on a
                bench in a bierstube or a tap hall, giving such an impression of extreme
                honesty and trustworthiness that you might be tempted to give him your
                account number of your Cayman Island Bank, don't do it. Instead you should
                ask the landlord what he called; not by what name, but by what profession.
                Even if you have to pay for his bier, it could be worth it.

                Cheers
                Wilhelm
              • Tore Gannholm
                ... The correct name of that tower is Torres lambitus ... First of all there was no office for Novgorod trade in Visby. When Lübeck was populated from
                Message 7 of 19 , Nov 22, 2004
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                  On Nov 22, 2004, at 8:55 PM, WILHELM OTTO wrote:

                  >
                  > Dear Francisc, Tore, Dirk and others,
                  > Let us sum up our position of the word Hansa/Hanse.
                  >
                  > The word is used in the Gothic Bible translated by Wulfila about 370
                  > The word is used in the title Hansa Graf in Regensburg 12 century
                  > The word is used in London in connection with a Flemish Hanse from
                  > London
                  > 1267
                  > The word Hanse does not appear in the middle Baltic until after 1356
                  > So far the Gothic list members. Thanks a lot for the help.
                  >
                  > There are a few complicating factors.
                  > One is that at first it is used of tradesmen, and later as a
                  > groupword for
                  > merchant towns. Some towns contained hanseatic tradesmen, and did a
                  > lot of
                  > trade, but were not hanseatic towns, Bergen, Stockholm. Later a group
                  > of
                  > towns were formally organised as a Hanse, with an organisational
                  > constitution and such paraphernalia.
                  > "London's Cannon Street Station was formerly the site of the hanseatic
                  > steel-yard, and remained hanseatic property until 1853." (Heer p.
                  > 64.) So it
                  > was a long-lived organisation.
                  > The origin seems to be a company of traders calling themselves
                  > "Gotland
                  > merchants of the Holy Roman German Empire or something the like. In
                  > the
                  > beginning they cooperated with the Gotland farming merchants
                  > (farb�nder) on
                  > the Novgorod trade.
                  > There are traces in Visby of an old wall encircling at least three
                  > church
                  > ruins, and two profane buildings, an old town hall and the oldest
                  > profane
                  > building in Scandinavia, the "Gunpowder tower"


                  The correct name of that tower is "Torres lambitus"


                  > just at the entrance of the
                  > harbour. This small town is conservatively dated about 1000. It is
                  > probable
                  > that there lived Gotland tradesmen, Russians and Germans. The Germans
                  > built
                  > their quarters to the south.
                  > 1293 was the office for Novgorod trade moved from Visby to L�beck.

                  First of all there was no office for Novgorod trade in Visby. When
                  L�beck was populated from Westphalia in the second half of the 12th
                  century also Visby got their part of Westphalians. At the Civil war in
                  Gotland 1288 when Visby broke away from Gotland and formed their own
                  City republic about half of the population was German speaking and the
                  other half Gotlandic speaking.

                  Where did you find that date 1293? It is not true. It was an only an
                  attempt by L�beck to move the court handling disputes on the Novgorod
                  trade from Visby to L�beck. However that attempt failed.

                  All disputes for trade on Novgorod was handled at the court in Visby.
                  In the 1290's L�beck tried to have these disputes moved to a court in
                  L�beck. In 1299 L�beck managed to prohibit the seal of "Mercantores" to
                  be used any longer. Probably in the 1320 L�beck managed to also accept
                  L�beck together with Visby as places for the court to handle disputes
                  on the Novgorod trade. However disputes handled in L�beck had to be
                  approve by the court in Visby.
                  As you can see there was a struggle between Visby and L�beck for the
                  dominance of the important Novgorod trade.

                  A common meeting in Novgorod where merchants from L�beck and Visby
                  were present announced that "de menen stede" on May 1st 1373 in L�beck
                  had agreed that the court for disputes on the Novgorod trade should be
                  moved to L�beck.

                  However it was not the Novgorod trade that had any influence on the
                  formning of the "Dudeschen Hanse" in 1356.
                  It was the problems that were in Br�gge as the visiting merchats did
                  not have a working organization there. Therefore when the cities from
                  whom merchants traded in Br�gge commonly took control of the Br�gge
                  office a Hanse organization was formed.

                  Tore



                  >
                  > Here were a lot of people doing a lot of work and by no means keeping
                  > to
                  > themselves. And people are usually called something. There are two
                  > descriptive names for these traders. They differ those who stayed the
                  > winter
                  > from them coming back next season; mercatrores frequentes and
                  > mercatores
                  > manentes respectively.
                  >
                  > I am telling this because if you should happen to see The Lone
                  > Trader, on a
                  > bench in a bierstube or a tap hall, giving such an impression of
                  > extreme
                  > honesty and trustworthiness that you might be tempted to give him your
                  > account number of your Cayman Island Bank, don't do it. Instead you
                  > should
                  > ask the landlord what he called; not by what name, but by what
                  > profession.
                  > Even if you have to pay for his bier, it could be worth it.
                  >
                  > Cheers
                  > Wilhelm
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > You are a member of the Gothic-L list.� To unsubscribe, send a blank
                  > email to <gothic-l-unsubscribe@egroups.com>.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                  >
                  > ADVERTISEMENT
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                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • WILHELM OTTO
                  Dear Dirk and Francisc. I note that Dirk refers to an earlier discussion with Tore about Hansa. I only have followed the list for a year or so, and did not
                  Message 8 of 19 , Nov 24, 2004
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                    Dear Dirk and Francisc.
                    I note that Dirk refers to an earlier discussion with Tore about Hansa. I
                    only have followed the list for a year or so, and did not know about this.
                    Sorry.
                    Most of our knowledge, and especially scientific knowledge, is mainstream.
                    Social communication would not work otherwise. But as our knowledge is not
                    static, we have to try to expand it a little now and then. It was what I
                    tried to do when I started the discussion with Terje. It was not a planned
                    assault from my part. I just drifted into it.
                    But the thoughts I have hade for some time is that the victorious writes the
                    history. The Lübeck Germans were very successful for a long time. And the
                    Baltic trade is old. Kjell Kumlien points out that the Danes plans for an
                    emporium were lost 1227 in a battle at "Bornhoeved". Does that mean
                    Bornholm? From around 1000, when Canute became the absolute power in
                    Scandinavia until then the Danes had an upper hand. There are a lot of St
                    Canute and St. Hans guilds and their churches around.

                    This is not enough to make a forceful argument, but a tentative question if
                    anyone may see a pattern I am grasping for. Sometime it is mainstream to
                    identify a loser's history as well as the victors´!
                    Wilhelm
                  • WILHELM OTTO
                    Hello Tore. You have taught me a lot about Visby s relations with Lübeck. It is clear that they by no means were uncomplicated. It says a lot of Visby s
                    Message 9 of 19 , Nov 24, 2004
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                      Hello Tore.
                      You have taught me a lot about Visby's relations with Lübeck. It is clear
                      that they by no means were uncomplicated. It says a lot of Visby's
                      importance that it took so long for Lübeck to get the upper hand.
                      It is right that you point out the decision to move the office of the Russia
                      travellers (rysslandsfararnas kontor) 1293 was just a decision. Ingvar
                      Andersson in Swedish Encyclopaedia (article on the word HANSAN) states that
                      Visby fate was sealed as the loser in this power struggle when this decision
                      was taken. Ingvar Andersson might be and old reference but I am quite sure
                      he has got it right. He is, as you well know, kept in the highest regard,
                      among Swedish historians.
                      Concerning "the Gunpowder Tower" (Kruttornet) it is the name that is used to
                      day. That is the name you find on maps telling you were it is. It was, once,
                      called the "Torres lambitus", the Lamb tower. It was the correct name.
                      Kruttornet is the correct name.

                      Wilhelm
                    • Tore Gannholm
                      Wilhelm, You are quite correct that we must see the history from more sides. Lübeck was the Deutsche Hanse in the 15th century. From German point of view and
                      Message 10 of 19 , Nov 25, 2004
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                        Wilhelm,
                        You are quite correct that we must see the history from more sides.
                        Lübeck was the Deutsche Hanse in the 15th century. From German point of
                        view and especially with the contribution of Rörig this is the Hanse
                        and the historian have projected the history backwards.
                        This is very common.
                        I attended a Hanse symposium in Lübeck some years back and brought up
                        the background to the Hanse. Most scolars there had suppressed it or
                        were unaware of it as it did not fit into their picture.
                        However when we discussed the matter they agreed that the Gotlandic
                        involvement in the early Baltic trade was gigantic and that the
                        Westphalians had broken into that trade by settleling in the newly
                        formed village of Lübeck and after the Artlenburg peace between
                        Heinrich Löwe and Gotland in 1161 started to settle in Visby and
                        forming "universitatem communium mercatorun".

                        When I started researching the history of Gotland the mainstream was
                        100% the Swedish view as they were the winners after annexing Gotland
                        in 1679.

                        Today the Gotlandic side of the history is accepted even by most Swedes.



                        On Nov 24, 2004, at 3:01 PM, WILHELM OTTO wrote:

                        >
                        > Dear Dirk and Francisc.
                        > I note that Dirk refers to an earlier discussion with Tore about
                        > Hansa. I
                        > only have followed the list for a year or so, and did not know about
                        > this.
                        > Sorry.
                        > Most of our knowledge, and especially scientific knowledge, is
                        > mainstream.
                        > Social communication would not work otherwise. But as our knowledge
                        > is not
                        > static, we have to try to expand it a little now and then. It was
                        > what I
                        > tried to do when I started the discussion with Terje. It was not a
                        > planned
                        > assault from my part. I just drifted into it.
                        > But the thoughts I have hade for some time is that the victorious
                        > writes the
                        > history. The Lübeck Germans were very successful for a long time. And
                        > the
                        > Baltic trade is old. Kjell Kumlien points out that the Danes plans
                        > for an
                        > emporium were lost 1227 in a battle at "Bornhoeved".


                        It is north to Hamburg.

                        > Does that mean
                        > Bornholm? From around 1000, when Canute became the absolute power in
                        > Scandinavia until then the Danes had an upper hand.  There are a lot
                        > of St
                        > Canute and St. Hans guilds and their churches around.
                        >
                        > This is not enough to make a forceful argument, but a tentative
                        > question if
                        > anyone may see a pattern I am grasping for. Sometime it is mainstream
                        > to
                        > identify a loser's history as well as the victors´!
                        > Wilhelm
                        >

                        Tore



                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Tore Gannholm
                        ... Wilhelm, Torres lambitus means The tower that is licked by water It was located at the northern entrance to the harbour where the ships left the harbour.
                        Message 11 of 19 , Nov 25, 2004
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                          On Nov 24, 2004, at 3:01 PM, WILHELM OTTO wrote:

                          >
                          > Hello Tore.
                          > You have taught me a lot about Visby's relations with Lübeck. It is
                          > clear
                          > that they by no means were uncomplicated. It says a lot of Visby's
                          > importance that it took so long for Lübeck to get the upper hand.
                          > It is right that you point out the decision to move the office of the
                          > Russia
                          > travellers (rysslandsfararnas kontor) 1293 was just a decision. Ingvar
                          > Andersson in Swedish Encyclopaedia (article on the word HANSAN)
                          > states that
                          > Visby fate was sealed as the loser in this power struggle when this
                          > decision
                          > was taken. Ingvar Andersson might be and old reference but I am quite
                          > sure
                          > he has got it right. He is, as you well know, kept in the highest
                          > regard,
                          > among Swedish historians.
                          > Concerning "the Gunpowder Tower" (Kruttornet) it is the name that is
                          > used to
                          > day. That is the name you find on maps telling you were it is. It
                          > was, once,
                          > called the "Torres lambitus", the Lamb tower.

                          Wilhelm,
                          Torres lambitus means "The tower that is licked by water"
                          It was located at the northern entrance to the harbour where the ships
                          left the harbour.
                          At the southern entrace was the tower "Turris fluviatilis"

                          Tore


                          > It was the correct name.
                          > Kruttornet is the correct name.
                          >
                          > Wilhelm




                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • OSCAR HERRERA
                          thattei alls god ist. auk weis skuld gamelid in gutrazda. Tore Gannholm wrote: Wilhelm, You are quite correct that we must see the history
                          Message 12 of 19 , Nov 25, 2004
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                            thattei alls god ist. auk weis skuld gamelid in gutrazda.

                            Tore Gannholm <tore@...> wrote:
                            Wilhelm,
                            You are quite correct that we must see the history from more sides.
                            L�beck was the Deutsche Hanse in the 15th century. From German point of
                            view and especially with the contribution of R�rig this is the Hanse
                            and the historian have projected the history backwards.
                            This is very common.
                            I attended a Hanse symposium in L�beck some years back and brought up
                            the background to the Hanse. Most scolars there had suppressed it or
                            were unaware of it as it did not fit into their picture.
                            However when we discussed the matter they agreed that the Gotlandic
                            involvement in the early Baltic trade was gigantic and that the
                            Westphalians had broken into that trade by settleling in the newly
                            formed village of L�beck and after the Artlenburg peace between
                            Heinrich L�we and Gotland in 1161 started to settle in Visby and
                            forming "universitatem communium mercatorun".

                            When I started researching the history of Gotland the mainstream was
                            100% the Swedish view as they were the winners after annexing Gotland
                            in 1679.

                            Today the Gotlandic side of the history is accepted even by most Swedes.



                            On Nov 24, 2004, at 3:01 PM, WILHELM OTTO wrote:

                            >
                            > Dear Dirk and Francisc.
                            > I note that Dirk refers to an earlier discussion with Tore about
                            > Hansa. I
                            > only have followed the list for a year or so, and did not know about
                            > this.
                            > Sorry.
                            > Most of our knowledge, and especially scientific knowledge, is
                            > mainstream.
                            > Social communication would not work otherwise. But as our knowledge
                            > is not
                            > static, we have to try to expand it a little now and then. It was
                            > what I
                            > tried to do when I started the discussion with Terje. It was not a
                            > planned
                            > assault from my part. I just drifted into it.
                            > But the thoughts I have hade for some time is that the victorious
                            > writes the
                            > history. The L�beck Germans were very successful for a long time. And
                            > the
                            > Baltic trade is old. Kjell Kumlien points out that the Danes plans
                            > for an
                            > emporium were lost 1227 in a battle at "Bornhoeved".


                            It is north to Hamburg.

                            > Does that mean
                            > Bornholm? From around 1000, when Canute became the absolute power in
                            > Scandinavia until then the Danes had an upper hand. There are a lot
                            > of St
                            > Canute and St. Hans guilds and their churches around.
                            >
                            > This is not enough to make a forceful argument, but a tentative
                            > question if
                            > anyone may see a pattern I am grasping for. Sometime it is mainstream
                            > to
                            > identify a loser's history as well as the victors�!
                            > Wilhelm
                            >

                            Tore



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