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Re: comments and corrections (REPAYING)

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  • llama_nom
    ... kurios ... I was wondering about the use of acc. with usgiban, and I think it s probably okay. Here are some parallels in Old English and Old Icelandic.
    Message 1 of 5 , Nov 16, 2004
      > Exodus 20,5
      > ou proskunhseis autois oude mh latreushs autois egw gar eimi
      > o qeos sou qeos zhlwths apodidous amartias paterwn epi tekna ews
      > triths kai tetarths geneas tois misousin me
      > (My attempt):
      > ni inweit ins nih blot ins. ik auk im frauja guþ þeins, guþ
      > *aljanahafts, usgibands frawaurhtins attane barnam und þridjon jah
      > *fidurdon aldins thaim fijandam mik.

      I was wondering about the use of acc. with usgiban, and I think it's
      probably okay. Here are some parallels in Old English and Old

      In OE and OIc. the following pattern is found:

      cause, original deed - acc.
      recipient of reward/punishment - dat.

      1) him þæt hearde wearð...forgolden "they were severely paid back
      for that", Judith 216-218

      2) skal ek gjalda þeim svá útrúleik sinn "I shall pay them back for
      their disloyalty", Olafs saga helga, Heimskringla, ch. 71

      An extension of this is the OE expression HE HIM þÆS LEAN
      FORGEALD "he paid him back (a reward--not necessarily a pleasant
      one!) for that". Also in OS, lón forgildan.

      In OE the word for "reward" can be omitted, leaving the deed-to-be-
      rewarded in the genitive:

      3) Nafa ðú áne niht unforgolden ðæs weorc ðe ðé wirce "do not leave
      unpaid for a night the work of him that works for thee", Lev. 19,13.

      In OIc., a similar eliptical construction is used to indicate that
      someone pays or suffers on someone else´s behalf.

      4) þess galt hún gedda...er Heiðrekr var veginn "the pike paid for
      that...when Heidrek was slain", Hervarar saga.

      In OE, the means of payment is often in the instrumental/dative
      case, as in these examples from Beowulf:

      5) forgeald hraðe, wyrsan wrixle, wælhlem þone "he paid back, with a
      more terrible response, that slaughter-stroke"

      6) lige forgyldan drincfæt dyre "pay back with fire (the theft of)
      the drinking vessel"

      I don't think there are any instances of this in Gothic, and--as I
      mentioned--there is at least one example of acc. for a penny paid
      (Mt. 5,27 usgibis thana minnistan kintu). But there are plenty of
      instrumental datives in other contexts. Maybe dat. was possible
      here too, perhaps especially where the means of repayment was
      something more metaphorical like an action, rather than a coin? Cf.
      the instrumental dat. with bugjan, frabugjan: niu twai sparwans
      assarjau bugjanda? "Aren't two sparrows bought for an assarius?"
      (type of coin)

      The OIc. equivalent of Go. und +dat. "in exchange for" is <við>.
      (OE, like MnE has <for>.)

      7) OIc. gjalda gjöf við gjöf

      8) Go. ubil und ubilamma usgibandadans/usgildai

      Whether any elliptical gen. construction was possible in Go. too
      (and with what connotations), I don't know. Certainly laun &
      andalauni each take gen. once, so I guess it's possible. And note
      the use of ?acc. + gen. for the currency of an exchange: hva gibiþ
      manna inmaidein saiwalos seinaizos? "what will a man give in
      exchange for his life?" (Gk. thn yuxhn, acc.)

      Llama Nom

      > usgiban 'repay, requite' (cf. L19,8; 1Tim 5,4; Rm 12,17). I think
      > USGILDAN and FRAGILDAN would work equally well.
      > Regarding the cases to use with these verbs, I don't think it's
      > entirely clear from the extant Gothic. I've just realised that I
      > made a mistake in my English-Gothic dictionary when I suggested
      > for the thing paid (I think I got confused by I Thess 3,9: hva auk
      > awiliude magum usgildan [fraujin] guda bi izwis ana allai
      > It should be acc. like _hva_ here. Compare: Mt. 5,27 usgibis thana
      > minnistan kintu.
      > At least we can be sure that the recipient of the repayment is
      > always dative.
      > Where English would say "for" or "in return for", Go. has UND
      > Ubil und ubilamma usgildai "pay back evil for evil" (=kakon anti
      > kakou), in other words "pay evil [back to someone] in return for
      > evil [that person has done]"; augo und augin, jah tunthu und
      > tunthau "an eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth". But also
      > _ana_ = Gk. epi, I Thess 3,9 -- see above.
      > The above examples translate Gk. prepositions. I haven't been
      > to find a clear example of "repaying a wrong" where Greek uses no
      > prepositions, unless maybe II Thess 1,6: usgildan þaim
      > izwis aggwiþa. I'm not sure if AGGWITHA is the crime or the
      > punishment; I guess both is implied.
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