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Re: Want som comments and corrections

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  • Fredrik
    Hi! When I made this translation I didn t use the greek to translate from. Instead I used, mostly, the swedish, and also a little the english and an older
    Message 1 of 5 , Nov 15, 2004
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      Hi!

      When I made this translation I didn't use the greek to translate
      from. Instead I used, mostly, the swedish, and also a little the
      english and an older version of the english. Why I did that is
      because I can't understand a single word in greek, almost.
      So if it's different from the greek version in case of the use of
      other words for 'kurios' it's because the swedish or english version
      used another.
      If some one know the greek, I won't mind if you tell me how it is and
      explain in to me.

      The word gagrefts. Isn't that fem. i-stem? And maybe I lack in my
      knowledge there, but I thought it was -ais in plurar. Got to check
      this soon, when I'll be back home :)

      house of bondage: is this the way the wordorder is in greek to? And
      is this the way to say it in gothic? When I earlier asked about
      compound words I thought about the english way to use genitive just
      as this sample. And I thought it would be more common to use a
      compound form in gothic, so instead of house of bondage it would be
      like a bondagehouse.

      About 'laitham'. This was a word I just used temporary because I
      didn't know the real word. And yes, I was thinking of swedish led,
      whidch is the word used in the swedish bible.

      Thank you for your comments and corrections. I will now try to make a
      new better version of this biblepart.

      Just some question more about this: which version of 20:5 was the
      better translation? Also which is less diferent from the greek?

      /Fredrik

      --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <600cell@o...> wrote:
      >
      >
      > Hi Fredrik,
      >
      > Well done! Here's a few random thoughts to be going on with.
      > According to Koebler, Gk. kurios always = Go. frauja. The word
      > _guth_ appears as if neuter, with no masc. nominative -s, even when
      > used as the proper name for the Christian God (usually abbreviated
      > to gth), but you are right in using masculine adjectives/pronouns
      > with it, when it does mean the Christian God (and perhaps also if
      > used for a particular named pagan god?)
      >
      > taihun gagreftais: did you mean _taihun gagrefteis_?
      >
      > 2) "out of the house of bondage", more literally: us razna
      > thiwadwis. (If we follow the Greek word order and construction.)
      > But your compound makes sense too.
      >
      > 3) guthans: probably guda, neut.pl., as in other Gmc. languages,
      cf.
      > neut.nom.pl. galiugaguda 1Kr 10,19 A. The forms gth, gtha, gths
      > that appear in the manuscripts should probably be expanded to guth,
      > guda, gudis (according to Braune & Helm), cf. derivatives
      > gudafaurhts, gudaskaunei, etc.
      >
      > 3) ufar mik: could be, although I think usually alja = plhn in this
      > sense. Ufar 'except' occurs Sk 7,4: ni wisandin aljai waihtai ufar
      > þans fimf hlaibans "not having anything except those 5 loaves", but
      > maybe the sense there is 'beyond, more than' (cf. Sk 6,3 alla ufar
      > insaht manniskodaus Iohannes) I reckon ALJA is probably the safest
      > translation here.
      >
      > 5) fidworta: *fidurda, or *fidworda?
      >
      > 5) in thridja jah fidworta laithaim: maybe "du thridjom jah
      fidurdom
      > aldim" or "in/ana thridjons jah fidurdons aldins" (or dat. with
      > in/ana) = Gk. geneas 'generations'. Re. *laithaim, were you
      > thinking of Swedish led (släktled)? This actually goes back to
      OSw.
      > lither = Go. lithus (
      > http://www.lysator.liu.se/runeberg/svetym/0489.html ).
      >
      > 5 & 6) frijond mis, fijand mis: frijond mik, fijand mik.
      >
      > 8) gamunei: gamun (preterite present verb, rather than Weak Class
      > 1). Good use of genitive here, though.
      >
      > 10) ni waurstwa taujan: usually _ni_ comes directly before the
      verb,
      > even where this is different for the Gk. word order.
      >
      > 11) Duthe ist sabbato dagis: dags (nom.)
      >
      > 12) fadar jah mothar: *modar, but the word never occurs in Go.
      > Instead _aithei_ is used. Fadar only accurs at Gal 6,4 in an
      > exclamation; everywhere else, it's _atta_.
      >
      > 16) galiuga weitwodjan: galiug weitwodjan
      >
      > 16) ana nehvundjan theinana: good! This is an example of what Sigi
      > mentioned in our recent discussion of this preposition, namely
      > casting something unpleasant at someone -- in this case,
      > metaphorically, a false accusation.
      >
      >
      > Good work, anyway. Lots of subtle things you got right, like dat.
      > with skalkinon. I haven't looked carefully at the whole of your
      > translation, nor checked it all against the Septuagint, but it
      looks
      > generally quite convincing, and makes sense as Gothic!
      >
      > Llama Nom
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "Fredrik" <gadrauhts@h...> wrote:
      > >
      > > Hi!
      > > >
      > > > I've tried to translate some of the bible into
      > > > gothic. I first thought
      > > > I should translate the ten commandments of God, but
      > > > I found out that these
      > > > ten isn't the same in all languages and all
      > > > churches. Acctualy I found
      > > > totaly thirteen commandments. But anyway, I changed
      > > > my mind and began to
      > > > translate the part of the bible where the
      > > > commandments are mentioned, exodus
      > > > 20:1-20:17. I'd like you to comment it and make corrections.
      > There
      > > are words and grammar that I have been more or less insecure (<-
      > > spelling?) about. Well, here it is:
      > > >
      > > > Ur-runs (2:ra Mosaíboka) kap. 20
      > > >
      > > > Taihun ga-greftais Gudis
      > > >
      > > > 1. Jah rodida Guths tho allona waurda jah qath:
      > > > 2. Ik im Frauja, Guths theins, saei thuk ustauh fram
      > > > landa Aigwptis, us
      > > > thiwadwarazna.
      > > > 3. Ni skalt thu alja guthans haban ufar mik.
      > > > 4. Ni skalt thu thus man-leikans aiththau
      > > > taikneinins taujan, ni af thamma
      > > > in himina jah af thamma ana airthai aiththau af
      > > > thamma in watin uf airthai.
      > > > 5. Ni skalt thu blotan jah skalkinon thaim. Unte Ik,
      > > > Frauja, Guths theins,
      > > > ist us-dauths Guths, saei ga-weisoth missa-dethais
      > > > fadre ana barnam jah
      > > > afaram in thridja jah fidworta laithaim, thizeei
      > > > fijand mis,
      > > > 6. ith armaith thusundjos laithans, thizeei frijond
      > > > mis jah ga-greftins
      > > > meinos haldand.
      > > > 7. Ni skalt thu missa-brukjan namo Fraujins, Gudis
      > > > theinis, unte Frauja skal
      > > > ni letan ina unwliziths wairthan, saei
      > > > missa-brukeith namo is.
      > > > 8. Ga-munei sabbato dagis thatei weihaith ina.
      > > > 9. Saihs dagos skalt thu arbaidjan jah waurstwa
      > > > theina taujan.
      > > > 10. Ith sibunda dags ist sabbato Fraujins, Gudis
      > > > theinis. Than skalt thu ni
      > > > waurstwa taujan, ni jah sunus theins aiththau
      > > > dauhtar theina, ni jah skalks
      > > > theins aiththau thiwairna theina aiththau faihu
      > > > thein, ni jah alja-kunja
      > > > saei in daurom theinaim ist.
      > > > 11. Unte in saihs dagam ga-skop Frauja himin jah
      > > > airtha jah saiw jah all
      > > > thanei in thaim sind, ith hweilaida sibunda daga.
      > > > Duthe ist sabbato dagis
      > > > ga-thiuthiths jah weihaiths af Fraujin.
      > > > 12. Swerai fadar jah mothar theinai, ei thu skalt
      > > > liban laggaba in landa
      > > > thammei Frauja, Guths theins, thus gibith.
      > > > 13. Ni skalt thu maúrthrjan.
      > > > 14. Ni skalt thu horinon.
      > > > 15. Ni skalt thu stilan.
      > > > 16. Ni skalt thu ga-liuga weitwodjan ana nehwundjan
      > > > theinana.
      > > > 17. Ni skalt thu lustus haban bi razn nehwundjins
      > > > theinis. Ni skalt thu
      > > > lustus haban bi qen nehwundjins theinis, jah ni bi
      > > > skalk is aiththau
      > > > thiwairna is, ni bi auhsan is aiththau asilu is, ni
      > > > jah bi sumana thanei ist
      > > > nehwundjins theinis.
      > > >
      > > > Alternative for Exodus 20:5
      > > >
      > > > 5. Ni skalt thu blotan jah hneiwan faura thaim. Unte
      > > > Ik, Frauja, Guths
      > > > theins, ist aiwiskonds Guths, jah ana-lagjith
      > > > fairina ana barnam jah iuthom
      > > > in thridja jah fidworta laithaim, bi inwindithom
      > > > attane hatandaize mis.
      > > >
      > > > /Fredrik
    • llama_nom
      ... Hi there Fredrik, I don t know that much Greek myself;) One trick is to look in the Greek-Gothic appendix of Gerhard Koebler s dictionary (
      Message 2 of 5 , Nov 15, 2004
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        --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "Fredrik" <gadrauhts@h...> wrote:
        >
        > Hi!
        >
        > When I made this translation I didn't use the greek to translate
        > from. Instead I used, mostly, the swedish, and also a little the
        > english and an older version of the english. Why I did that is
        > because I can't understand a single word in greek, almost.


        Hi there Fredrik,

        I don't know that much Greek myself;) One trick is to look in the
        Greek-Gothic appendix of Gerhard Koebler's dictionary (
        http://www.koeblergerhard.de/publikat.html ), to see if that word
        was translated anywhere in the surviving portions of the Gothic
        Bible, and if so with what. Another handy link which Matthew showed
        me recently is The Unbound Bible site ( http://unbound.biola.edu/ ),
        where you can search various bibles, for example to see if the Greek
        word (or anything similar) occurs in the relevant sections. Of
        course, this takes ages--or it does for me, anyway--which is why I
        only managed a few lines!


        > Just some question more about this: which version of 20:5 was the
        > better translation? Also which is less diferent from the greek?


        Only one way to find out... I've had a go at this verse, using the
        resources mentioned; here's the Greek + my version. If you want to
        comapare, I've left your two at the bottom of this message.

        http://www.tricountyi.net/~randerse/Ex20.htm

        Exodus 20,5

        ou proskunhseis autois oude mh latreushs autois egw gar eimi kurios
        o qeos sou qeos zhlwths apodidous amartias paterwn epi tekna ews
        triths kai tetarths geneas tois misousin me

        (My attempt):

        ni inweit ins nih blot ins. ik auk im frauja guth theins, guth
        *aljanahafts, usgibands frawaurhtins attane barnam und thridjon jah
        *fidurdon aldins thaim fijandam mik.


        NOTES

        zhlos = aljan 'jealousy, zeal, enthusiasm'
        zhloun = aljanon 'be zealous, jealous; emulate'
        zeloths = Zelotes (name of a fanatical faction)

        Couldn't find a native Gothic adjective from this noun, so
        imporivised using the analogy of OHG ellanhaft 'zealous, brave'. (OE
        ellenrof, ellenheard & ON eljunfroekn both = 'brave'). As you'll
        recall, the stem-vowel -a- is usually preserved but sometimes not,
        cf. akrana-laus, himina-kunds, witoda-laus, laus-handus; manag-
        falths, mikil-thuhts, lausa-waurds. So it might possibly have been
        *aljanhafts.

        usgiban 'repay, requite' (cf. L19,8; 1Tim 5,4; Rm 12,17). I think
        USGILDAN and FRAGILDAN would work equally well.

        Regarding the cases to use with these verbs, I don't think it's
        entirely clear from the extant Gothic. I've just realised that I
        made a mistake in my English-Gothic dictionary when I suggested gen.
        for the thing paid (I think I got confused by I Thess 3,9: hva auk
        awiliude magum usgildan [fraujin] guda bi izwis ana allai fahedai).
        It should be acc. like _hva_ here. Compare: Mt. 5,27 usgibis thana
        minnistan kintu.

        At least we can be sure that the recipient of the repayment is
        always dative.

        Where English would say "for" or "in return for", Go. has UND +dat.
        Ubil und ubilamma usgildai "pay back evil for evil" (=kakon anti
        kakou), in other words "pay evil [back to someone] in return for the
        evil [that person has done]"; augo und augin, jah tunthu und
        tunthau "an eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth". But also
        _ana_ = Gk. epi, I Thess 3,9 -- see above.

        The above examples translate Gk. prepositions. I haven't been able
        to find a clear example of "repaying a wrong" where Greek uses no
        prepositions, unless maybe II Thess 1,6: usgildan þaim gaþreihandam
        izwis aggwiþa. I'm not sure if AGGWITHA is the crime or the
        punishment; I guess both is implied.

        Hmmmm, I'm going to have to look into this a bit more closely when I
        have time.


        > The word gagrefts. Isn't that fem. i-stem? And maybe I lack in my
        > knowledge there, but I thought it was -ais in plural. Got to check
        > this soon, when I'll be back home :)


        Yeah, fem. i-stem (you were thinking of the genitive singular)--

        N -s -eis
        A -ins
        G -ais -e
        D -ai -im


        > house of bondage: is this the way the wordorder is in greek to?
        And
        > is this the way to say it in gothic? When I earlier asked about
        > compound words I thought about the english way to use genitive
        just
        > as this sample. And I thought it would be more common to use a
        > compound form in gothic, so instead of house of bondage it would
        be
        > like a bondagehouse.


        Your compound seems perfectly good Gothic to me. The Bible was
        translated very literally, but I'm sure compounds like this were
        made up all the time, especially in poetry. There may even be
        examples in the Bible of Gr. gen. = Go. compound--I'm not sure. I
        know there are some instances of a single Greek noun being
        translated with a genitive construction, e.g. georgos = airthis
        waurstwja 'farmer'.

        Likewise, most of your translation works okay, I reckon, and most of
        the time is probably at least as good Gothic as a direct translation
        from the Greek. I guesss doing it the hard way helps us to learn
        more precisely what range of meaning particular words have. It also
        supplies extra clues about what words are best in each context, but
        it can also be instructive translating from any language into Gothic.

        Skalt thu blotan... Both your versions of this first sentence seem
        good.
        GUTH rather than *GUTHS, I mentioned.
        IST should be IM here.
        MIS should be MIK.
        GAWEISON 'visit' -- English has this idiom. Is it in Swedish too?
        Probably safer to be more literal here. (But you're right this verb
        does take genitive.) Your other version "laying/placing the blame
        on" might work.
        BI INWINDITHOM ATTANE 'in accordance with the wickedness of the
        fathers' seems good Gothic to me.
        *IUTHOM. Koebler has iutha-, ?strong masc. (i.e. iuths), implied by
        the Personal Name iutharic. But Gmc. euthuz -- I don't know why
        though. ON jóð 'child' is neuter.

        Incidentally Go. blotan (like ON blóta) takes acc. for the god
        worshipped, and dat. for the means of worship. So to worship with
        prayers: bidom blotan. I think Norse uses dat. for whatever is
        sacrificed to the god.


        > About 'laitham'. This was a word I just used temporary because I
        > didn't know the real word. And yes, I was thinking of swedish led,
        > whidch is the word used in the swedish bible.


        You can't imagine how smug that makes me feel to have guessed that...

        Good luck with future translations!

        Llama Nom




        > > > > 5. Ni skalt thu blotan jah skalkinon thaim. Unte Ik,
        > > > > Frauja, Guths theins,
        > > > > ist us-dauths Guths, saei ga-weisoth missa-dethais
        > > > > fadre ana barnam jah
        > > > > afaram in thridja jah fidworta laithaim, thizeei
        > > > > fijand mis,
        > > > >
        > > > > Alternative for Exodus 20:5
        > > > >
        > > > > 5. Ni skalt thu blotan jah hneiwan faura thaim. Unte
        > > > > Ik, Frauja, Guths
        > > > > theins, ist aiwiskonds Guths, jah ana-lagjith
        > > > > fairina ana barnam jah iuthom
        > > > > in thridja jah fidworta laithaim, bi inwindithom
        > > > > attane hatandaize mis.
      • llama_nom
        ... kurios ... I was wondering about the use of acc. with usgiban, and I think it s probably okay. Here are some parallels in Old English and Old Icelandic.
        Message 3 of 5 , Nov 16, 2004
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          > Exodus 20,5
          >
          > ou proskunhseis autois oude mh latreushs autois egw gar eimi
          kurios
          > o qeos sou qeos zhlwths apodidous amartias paterwn epi tekna ews
          > triths kai tetarths geneas tois misousin me
          >
          > (My attempt):
          >
          > ni inweit ins nih blot ins. ik auk im frauja guþ þeins, guþ
          > *aljanahafts, usgibands frawaurhtins attane barnam und þridjon jah
          > *fidurdon aldins thaim fijandam mik.



          I was wondering about the use of acc. with usgiban, and I think it's
          probably okay. Here are some parallels in Old English and Old
          Icelandic.


          In OE and OIc. the following pattern is found:

          cause, original deed - acc.
          recipient of reward/punishment - dat.

          1) him þæt hearde wearð...forgolden "they were severely paid back
          for that", Judith 216-218

          2) skal ek gjalda þeim svá útrúleik sinn "I shall pay them back for
          their disloyalty", Olafs saga helga, Heimskringla, ch. 71



          An extension of this is the OE expression HE HIM þÆS LEAN
          FORGEALD "he paid him back (a reward--not necessarily a pleasant
          one!) for that". Also in OS, lón forgildan.


          In OE the word for "reward" can be omitted, leaving the deed-to-be-
          rewarded in the genitive:

          3) Nafa ðú áne niht unforgolden ðæs weorc ðe ðé wirce "do not leave
          unpaid for a night the work of him that works for thee", Lev. 19,13.



          In OIc., a similar eliptical construction is used to indicate that
          someone pays or suffers on someone else´s behalf.

          4) þess galt hún gedda...er Heiðrekr var veginn "the pike paid for
          that...when Heidrek was slain", Hervarar saga.



          In OE, the means of payment is often in the instrumental/dative
          case, as in these examples from Beowulf:

          5) forgeald hraðe, wyrsan wrixle, wælhlem þone "he paid back, with a
          more terrible response, that slaughter-stroke"

          6) lige forgyldan drincfæt dyre "pay back with fire (the theft of)
          the drinking vessel"



          I don't think there are any instances of this in Gothic, and--as I
          mentioned--there is at least one example of acc. for a penny paid
          (Mt. 5,27 usgibis thana minnistan kintu). But there are plenty of
          instrumental datives in other contexts. Maybe dat. was possible
          here too, perhaps especially where the means of repayment was
          something more metaphorical like an action, rather than a coin? Cf.
          the instrumental dat. with bugjan, frabugjan: niu twai sparwans
          assarjau bugjanda? "Aren't two sparrows bought for an assarius?"
          (type of coin)



          The OIc. equivalent of Go. und +dat. "in exchange for" is <við>.
          (OE, like MnE has <for>.)

          7) OIc. gjalda gjöf við gjöf

          8) Go. ubil und ubilamma usgibandadans/usgildai


          Whether any elliptical gen. construction was possible in Go. too
          (and with what connotations), I don't know. Certainly laun &
          andalauni each take gen. once, so I guess it's possible. And note
          the use of ?acc. + gen. for the currency of an exchange: hva gibiþ
          manna inmaidein saiwalos seinaizos? "what will a man give in
          exchange for his life?" (Gk. thn yuxhn, acc.)

          Llama Nom





          >
          > usgiban 'repay, requite' (cf. L19,8; 1Tim 5,4; Rm 12,17). I think
          > USGILDAN and FRAGILDAN would work equally well.
          >
          > Regarding the cases to use with these verbs, I don't think it's
          > entirely clear from the extant Gothic. I've just realised that I
          > made a mistake in my English-Gothic dictionary when I suggested
          gen.
          > for the thing paid (I think I got confused by I Thess 3,9: hva auk
          > awiliude magum usgildan [fraujin] guda bi izwis ana allai
          fahedai).
          > It should be acc. like _hva_ here. Compare: Mt. 5,27 usgibis thana
          > minnistan kintu.
          >
          > At least we can be sure that the recipient of the repayment is
          > always dative.
          >
          > Where English would say "for" or "in return for", Go. has UND
          +dat.
          > Ubil und ubilamma usgildai "pay back evil for evil" (=kakon anti
          > kakou), in other words "pay evil [back to someone] in return for
          the
          > evil [that person has done]"; augo und augin, jah tunthu und
          > tunthau "an eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth". But also
          > _ana_ = Gk. epi, I Thess 3,9 -- see above.
          >
          > The above examples translate Gk. prepositions. I haven't been
          able
          > to find a clear example of "repaying a wrong" where Greek uses no
          > prepositions, unless maybe II Thess 1,6: usgildan þaim
          gaþreihandam
          > izwis aggwiþa. I'm not sure if AGGWITHA is the crime or the
          > punishment; I guess both is implied.
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