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Re: du usfilhan ana gastim

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  • llama_nom
    Hi Dirk, Yeah, that s just the trouble: they re both quite convincing! Also ON á Englandi. Of course, the field itself isn t being moved to a foreign land,
    Message 1 of 33 , Nov 13, 2004
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      Hi Dirk,

      Yeah, that's just the trouble: they're both quite convincing! Also
      ON á Englandi. Of course, the field itself isn't being moved to a
      foreign land, but OE says _on eastenglum_ literally "among the East
      Anglians", where MnE would say "in East Anglia".

      Llama Nom


      > >
      > > 1) to be buried in, by foreigners (Terry)
      > > 2) ? to bury ... foreigners (Durante)
      > > 3) for burials among the foreign community (Llama)
      > > 4) at the foreigners, for their burials (Sigi)

      >
      > Hi Sigi and Llama Nom,
      >
      > Sigi's examples for the use of this Gothic preposition 'ana' seem
      > very plausible to a native German speaker. Thus Gothic 'ana
      speiwan',
      > would be 'an speien' in German (to spit at). In other words,
      > Gothic 'ana' seems quite similar to modern German 'an'. As for the
      > use of 'ana' for 'in the land of ...', in an older biblical German
      I
      > remember the form 'Da er ward gekommen an dem Lande der ...' (i.e.
      > Whence he had come in the land of ...'. Modern German 'an' is here
      > used like 'into, to' which is similar the last example by Llama
      Nom
      > above which suggests that Gothic 'ana' could also be used in this
      > sense.
      >
      > Cheers
      > Dirk
    • llama_nom
      Hi Sigi, Exactly like your Gothic example of J 11,18 is Old English -- Wæs seó stów hwæthwugu on healfre mile fram ðære ceastre wealle that place was
      Message 33 of 33 , Nov 18, 2004
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        Hi Sigi,

        Exactly like your Gothic example of J 11,18 is Old English -- Wæs
        seó stów hwæthwugu on healfre mile fram ðære ceastre wealle "that
        place was about half a mile from the city wall".

        Similarly, OE _on_ can also form part of placenames, like Norse
        _a'_. The nearest MnE equivalent is the locative "at" (at a certain
        place, at a distance of three miles, etc.).

        OE _on_ is also used for "during" a period of time: on þrím dagum
        hyt eft getimbraþ "in (over the course of) three days he will
        rebuild it" (=Go. bi þrins dagans). Go. sibun sinþam ana dag "seven
        times in one day" -- but note the difference in case.

        OE has _on_ for the thing sworn on/by in oaths, while Go. has bi
        +dat. (biswara thuk bi guda). But OE on secgan "bring a charge
        against" seems like Go. weitwodjan ana.

        _on_ is a very popular preposition in OE, with a much broader range
        of uses than MnE, including adverbial idioms and a lot of examples
        where we would now say "in/into" or "at", cf. Go. ana auþidai "in
        the desert" (x3), ana auþida "into the desert" (x1). As in the
        Swedish examples you give, OE _on_ is often used for the object of
        an emotion. But Go. faginon varies, between in +dat., in +gen.,
        though also _ana_, e.g. 2Cor 7,13 aþþan ana gaþrafsteinai unsarai
        filaus mais faginodedum ana fahedai Teitaus "however to our comfort
        we rejoiced much more at the joy of Titus". (I suggested 2Cor 7,7
        in a recent post as an example of "among", but I think I got that
        wrong. It's more likely used there to indicate the source of
        comfort: gaþrafstiþs was ana izwis "he was comforted in you" =Gk.
        ef'. But elsewhere in +dat. is used with gaþrafstjan = Gk. en, King
        James Bible "by").


        Some unambiguous OE examples of _on_ = "among":

        on Juda ealdrum "AMONG the princes of Judah"

        eart gebletsud on wifum "thou art blessed AMONG women" (=Go. þiuþido
        þu in qinom)


        But Gothic and Old English differ when it come to entering into a
        state of being among.

        sum gadraus in þaurnuns -- Go.
        sume feollon on þornas -- OE
        "some fell among thorns"


        OE & Go. have similar constructions for spitting and striking, OE:
        hi spætton on hyne "they spat on him", hie me spætton on mine
        onsyne "they spat on my face", on þone andwlitan men slogun "the
        face was stuck" (all acc. as in Go.).


        In the Dutch _op zo'n vijftien mijlen_, is that _'n_ short for
        _een_, emphasising the vagueness maybe, (or _aan_, emphasising the
        location)?


        Getting back to DU USFILHAN ANA GASTIM at last, I see that Bosworth
        & Toller have a meaning for OE _on_: marking end or purpose: ic
        wylle gán on fiscaþ "I want to go fishing"; on fultum "to help". I
        wonder if that could be relevant? (Although fiscaþ & fultum are
        both acc. here, and _ana gastim_ maybe isn't quite the same thing.)


        > Seems to me there was in Gothic a separate sense
        of "ana", "statically
        > located at/dynamically moving to be located at" -- which isn't all
        too
        > much different from its general meaning "(on its way to be)
        located on
        > the top of some object".

        Probably two separate senses, as shown by the change of case,
        whatever theoretical similarities we can see.

        Dynamic, dative, neutral, L 19,36: ufstrawidedun wastjom seinaim ana
        wiga "they strewed their clothes on the path". Dynamic, accusative,
        positive & negative?, Mt. 5,45: unte sunnon seina urranneiþ ana
        ubilans jah godans, jah rigneiþ ana garaihtans jah ana
        inwindans "for he for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on
        the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust." Am I
        right in thinking we're yet to find an example of ANA +dat. for
        casting something at someone (horizontally) in an unpleasant sense?
        On the other hand, dat. alone is used with many verbs of destruction
        and harm. Still, it's only speculation that the foreigners are
        getting something unpleasant by the field -- it may be more to do
        with the priests' own scruples and taboo rules, which they know the
        foreigners won't mind about.

        Llama Nom





        --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "Sigi Vandewinkel"
        <sigivandewinkel@y...> wrote:
        >
        > Hi all,
        >
        > In Dutch, we would also say "spuwen op iemand" lit. "spit on
        someone",
        > "throwing stones at someone" would be translated just like that:
        > stenen gooien naar iemand" (naar = at). However, in my dialect,
        which
        > has had quite some German influence, we would say: "stein guje op
        > eine", "throw stones on someone". The "op" there is probably from
        > analogy with expressions such as being angry/enraged/jealous/ "op"
        > someone -- which are also unpleasant experiences. Come to think of
        it:
        > Swedish adjectives expressing negative emotions toward someone also
        > need "på" (=on): att vara arg/sur/elak/svartsjuk på någon"
        > (to be
        > angry/upset/jealous *on* someone".
        >
        > And with reference to "on eastenglum", I recall from Mitchell's Old
        > English syntax that Old English "in" and "on" formed one
        preposition
        > "on" well into the Middle English period; but I can't recall any
        > reason. Perhaps it was contexts like "usfilhan ana gastim" that
        coaxed
        > people into linking up "in" and "on".
        >
        > In Gothic, there is this example where "ana" is used to locate a
        > village; I feel it is similar to the ones about spitting and
        stoning.
        >
        > wasuh þan Beþania nehva Iairusaulwmi[a]m, swaswe ana spaurdim
        > fimftaihunim (John 11:18).
        > Bethany then was near Jerusalem, such on fifteen miles. (transl?)
        >
        > In Dutch, there would be a similar construction there: "op zo'n
        > vijftien mijlen": lit. "on such fifteen miles"; "at about fifteen
        > miles", which is what the Gothic phrase seems to be indicating.
        Note
        > that "spaurdim fimftaihunim" is a dative case, used in a static
        > context. The examples about throwing stones and spitting are
        similar,
        > the main difference being they involved movements, dynamic
        contexts,
        > and, therefore an accusative. Still there is another difference:
        the
        > dynamic examples always involved something unpleasant, whereas the
        > "ana spaurdim" example is neutral.
        >
        > Seems to me there was in Gothic a separate sense
        of "ana", "statically
        > located at/dynamically moving to be located at" -- which isn't all
        too
        > much different from its general meaning "(on its way to be)
        located on
        > the top of some object".
        >
        > Sigi
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