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Re: Gothic & Greek B in Slabonic + izba

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  • llama_nom
    ... Hi Vladimir, Re: IZBA, the Romance connection is mentioned in by Terrence Wade in his Russian Etymological Dictionary , and by Preobrazhensky,
    Message 1 of 38 , Sep 1, 2004
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      > I have no substantial comments on istuba >> izba.
      > I encountered the opinion deriving <izba> from Germanic
      > but never heard about any Romance sources. Moreover,
      > my mind fails to imagine the Romans living in izbas.
      > The common sense supposes a northern origin of the word.
      > I seem the general appearance of the word looks as Baltic.

      Hi Vladimir,

      Re: IZBA, the Romance connection is mentioned in by Terrence Wade in
      his "Russian Etymological Dictionary", and by
      Preobrazhensky, "Etimologicheskiy slobar' russkavo yaz'ika", although
      each give OHG stuba as the immediate source. The word <izba> may
      have got mixed up with OR <istonka> 'warm room with a stove', from
      <topit'> 'to heat', possibly with contamination from Romance *ex(s)
      tufare 'to heat with coals', whence the nouns in the various modern
      Romance languages meaning (stufa, estufa, etc.) 'stove, sauna, etc.'

      Preobrazhensky also has Hungarian szoba, Fin. tuba, Lit. stuba,
      Pruss. stubo.

      Here's what the Oxford English Dictionary has to say about the
      English cognate <stove>, and the Romance borrowing <stew>:

      STOVE, n1

      [OE. had stofa wk. masc., hot air bath (once, as gloss on balneum),
      and the related stuf-bæ (Leechdoms III. 92, 132) in the same sense.
      The word, however, seems not to have survived, but to have been taken
      up afresh in the 15-16th c. from MLG. or MDu. stove fem. (Du. stoof)
      = OHG. stuba fem. (MHG. stube heated room, mod.G. stube sitting-
      room), ON. stofa, stufa fem. (Sw. stufva, stuga cottage, Da. stue
      room); the Scandinavian words are prob. adopted from LG. The relation
      between the WGer. *stu- and the late L. or Rom. stufa, stufare (see
      STEW n.2 and v.2, STUFE) is uncertain.]


      STEW, n2

      [a. OF. estuve (mod.F. étuve), a Com. Romanic word, represented by
      Pr. estuba, Sp., Pg. estufa, It. stufa; the discrepant forms seem to
      proceed from the two vulgar Latin forms, stupha (stufa) and stupa,
      both which are recorded in med.Latin. The ulterior etymology is
      obscure: some regard the word as a verbal noun f. a vulgar L. vb.
      *extufare, f. *tufus (It. tufo) vapour, a. Gr. tuphos. Connexion of
      some kind no doubt exists between the Rom. word and the Teut. root
      *stu- in OE. stuf-bæ hot-air bath, stofa masc. bath (mod.Eng. STOVE
      n.), MDu. stove, mod.Du. stoof fem. stove, footwarmer, Du. stoven to
      stew, OHG. stuba fem. heated room, bath-room (MHG., mod.G. stube
      room), ON. stufa, stofa wk. fem. room with a fireplace (Sw. stufva,
      stuga cottage, Da. stue room).


      That uncertainty of connection between the Germanic & Romance forms
      might be a borrowing either way, or even just a coincidence? The two
      different Vulgar Latin forms could point to some foreign influence,
      Greek or Germanic, or perhaps some of the Romance forms come from a
      West Germanic source, while other came from Gothic?? Wade and
      Preobrazhensky both offer a possible explanation in terms of the OHG
      verb <stioban>, <stiuban> > Modern High German <stieben> 'to fly
      about' (as of sparks).


      > I can't say anything about <*oldija> as a ship, but
      > Old Russian knew the word <lodja> as a big boat
      > (<ladja> in modern Russian with the same meaning
      > and an archaic shade, also the chess rook).
      > As far as I know, this word is assumed to be
      > original Russian. The modern Russian for a boat is
      > <lodka> where the root is <lod>, <k> is a diminutive
      > suffix, and <a> is an ending (N. fem.). However,
      > the root <lod> is not productive in Russian that
      > implicitly allows a borrowing to be surmised.


      Thanks. According to Wade the meaning 'rook' is first recorded from
      1762. He also gives Lith. eldija 'canoe'. Preobrazhensky has Lith.
      eldija, also aldija. Interestingly he cites a number of Germanic
      words, as cognates, with the meaning 'trough': Norwegian dialect
      <olda>, Sw. dial. <ålla>, and OE <aldaht>, to which Bosworth & Toller
      add Bavarian <alden> 'furrow'. I guess the idea here was originally
      of a dug-out boat made from a trunk. The Scandinavian forms,
      including Ellidi imply an earlier *alþ-, which would become *ald- in
      WGerm. So it seems the history of this word might be more complex.
      Maybe the meaning 'ship' was taken from Baltic or Slavonic to give
      OIc. <elliði> and the word was partly assimilated to the native
      cognate root.

      It's still not really clear to me why the Germanic forms don't have
      <t> rather than <*þ/d>, from PIE [d].

      And no, I'm afraid I don't know how all those words got into Finnish
      either! Could they have come through Baltic?


      Llama Nom




      --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, åÇÏÒÏ× ÷ÌÁÄÉÍÉÒ <vegorov@i...> wrote:
      > ******<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-
      com:office:office" />
      >
      >
      >
      > Hi Llama nom!
      >
      >
      >
      > Thank you for an interesting and useful excursus,
      > but Finnish borrowings from Common Germanic remain
      > a mystery. It is a pity. All the rest has a little
      > connection to Gothic.
      >
      > No one contends against the fact that the Slavs
      > borrowed the word <korabl'> just because they
      > had not got practice in seafaring and just from Greek
      > because the Greeks had it a lot. The point is whether
      > the loan took place in a written or oral way.
      > The first one is easily explainable while the second
      > needs a serious elucidation of early contacts between
      > the Slavs and Greeks.

      >
      > Vladimir
      >



      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: llama_nom [mailto:penterakt@f...]
      > Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2004 4:15 PM
      > To: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: [gothic-l] Re: Gothic & Greek B in Slabonic
      >
      >
      > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, åÇÏÒÏ× ÷ÌÁÄÉÍÉÒ <vegorov@i...>
      wrote:
      > > ****<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-
      > com:office:office" />
      > >
      > > Finnish borrowings from the Common Germanic are
      > > an intriguing riddle that gives me no rest.
      > > Where and when the Finns had contacts with speakers
      > > of Common Germanic? Besides, is the form <hlaibaz>
      > > really attested in Germanic? (BTW, the same question
      > > in respect of the form <hlaibaR> in ON.)
      > > However that may be, Finnish actually has borrowings
      > > from Common Germanic, not Norse, that is a fact and--
      > > a mystery!
      >
      >
      > Hi Vladimir,
      >
      > I'm not aware of of any Proto-Norse inscriptions containing the
      word
      > *hlaibaz/*hlaibaR itself, but there is attested, on the Tune rune-
      > stone, Norway c. 400, a Proto-Norse compound word, or perhaps a
      > phrase: WITANDAHALAIBAN. This is usually taken as a compound of
      > witanda- 'protecting' + hlaiba, dat. sg. masculine n-stem, a
      > derivative of hlaibaR 'bread'. The sense is probably 'lord',
      > literally 'bread-protector', cf. MnE lord < OE hlaford < hlaf +
      > weard, with the same meaning. Alternatively, HALAIBA (the first A
      is
      > a parasitic/svarabhakti vowel, quite common in these inscriptions)
      > might represent a Proto-Norse cognate of Got. gahlaiba, OHG
      > galeipo 'comrade, colleague, companion' (literally: 'mess-mate,
      > someone you eat bread together with). For more details, see the
      > indepth discussion of the Tune inscription on the Theudiskon group
      > some months ago, and check out the Kiel Runenprojekt site, which
      > offers the interpretations of various scholars.
      >
      > >
      > > If it is of interest, the pronunciation _hlep_
      > > in Russian is not a "development" from _hleb_.
      > > In all Slavonic languages, more or less, voiced stops
      > > at the end of words are pronounced as paired unvoiced.
      > > That is, <hleb> is a written form, which was pronounced,
      > > from the very beginning, as _hlep_. To compare,
      > > the genitive is <hleba> with the same pronunciation _hleba_.
      > > I have mentioned this example only in order to show that
      > > a Slavonic ear took Gothic <hlaifs> as containing a stop
      > > (its voicing is here of no importance) rather than
      > > a fricative (Old Slavonic knew both _f_ and _v_).
      > > Perhaps this feature sheds a little light upon specificity
      > > of the Gothic _b/f_.
      > >
      >
      > The early runic inscriptions don't necessarily offer much clue
      about
      > the development of <b>, since in the earliest times, the same rune
      > was used initially for a stop and medially for a fricative.
      Probably
      > when they were invented the initial sound was a fricative too.
      > An early borrowing into Latin, Suevi, suggests as we'd expect a
      > fricative medially rather than a stop. Ptolemy, writing in Greek,
      > has Sueeboi, presumably also representing a fricative, but without
      > the means of making that clear.
      >
      > Some more Latin spellings of Gothic names (reconstructed on the
      > right):
      >
      > Recciverga (657) < -bairga
      > Sunhivadus (6th c.) < Sunjabadws
      > Tilgeva (6/7th c.) < Tilagiba
      >
      > Spellings such as fragibtim (L 1,27) suggest that the fluctuation
      in
      > the manuscripts of voiced and voiceless spirants was not
      necessarily
      > reflected in speech, but might just be analogical spellings. The
      > admittedly late (9/10th c.) Vienna-Salzburg codex regularly
      > transcribes Gothic final <s> into Roman script as <z>, but this
      could
      > be voiceless following the conventions of OHG.
      >
      > I've read one idea that the Slavs may have taken the
      Germanic/Gothic
      > word for bread because previously they only knew rye bread, and the
      > loan was a useful term to refer to the innovation of wheat bread,
      > which perhaps reached Germanic areas first.
      >
      >
      > > Of course, it is hardly to suppose the word <korabl'>
      > > having been an early borrowing as the Slavs never were
      > > seafarers and just did not sense necessity in borrowing
      > > words to express a notion of a ship (vessel) until
      > > the word appeared in translated Greek texts.
      >
      > I wonder... Often the lack of a commodity or practice among one
      > people is taken as grounds for accepting loanwords from another
      > culture which does have that practice, whether the practise itself
      is
      > adopted too, or just the idea. That is to say: If the Greeks had a
      > certain kind of boat the Slavs didn't, the Slavs could well have
      > taken the Greek name for it (Whether they actually did or not at an
      > early date, is another matter...). But I'm always a bit suspicious
      > of theoretical proofs of what words could or couldn't be borrowed,
      > let alone must or must not! They can help us to consider the
      > likelihood, but if we follow the theory too dogmatically, we end up
      > ignoring the quirkiness of history. Sometimes words for quite
      > familiar concepts are borrowed, for cultural reasons which might
      not
      > be clear to us now. Or in some cases there may have been a nuance
      in
      > meaning which is now obscure. To know the full story, we might
      need
      > to consider not only the subtly shifting meanings of the words in
      > question, but how they fit into the evolving web of semanticly
      > related concepts.
      >
      > Do you know anything about a Slavonic word *oldija 'ship'
      (Entwhistle
      > & Moris) which is supposed to lie behind OIc ellidi 'a kind of
      ship'
      > (Zoega). This could be a case in point. The Varangians/Rus
      > presumably had a wider knowledge of ships than the Slavs at the
      time
      > of contact, but maybe this word originally stood for a type of boat
      > the Norsemen didn't know. Or the word might just have been used
      back
      > in Scandinavia for the sake of local colour, or out of sheer love
      of
      > words, or as a synonym for the sake of rhyme and alliteration (or
      > obscurity) in their poetry. In Fridthjof's Saga, Ellidi appears as
      > the proper name of a ship.
      >
      > Also, what do you think about the etymology of OB istuba, Russ.
      > izba? I've seen two radically different ideas about this, one
      > deriving it (and presumed relatives outside of Slavonic) ultimately
      > from Romance (perhaps via German), the other from a native Germanic
      > root.
      >
      > (Excuse the rant!)
      >
      > Llama Nom
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • faltin2001
      ... CE? Wow! Is that must from runic evidence? And that must be Scandanavian. Maybe that is too far west. Still, what a shocking omission. It disappoints me
      Message 38 of 38 , Sep 16, 2004
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        --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, James Young <daddio52@s...> wrote:
        > Hail Llama Nom,
        >
        > Sorry for the delay.
        >
        > Did you say that there was no German word for "Greeks" before 350
        CE? Wow! Is that must from runic evidence? And that must be
        Scandanavian. Maybe that is too far west. Still, what a shocking
        omission. It disappoints me to learn that there were no German
        stories of Persians or Parthians, no references to Cyrus or Darius
        and their trans Danube forays.


        Hi,

        I read some articles about the Germanic graves of Gommern (ca. 300)
        and Hassleben. The former is the riches Germanic grave ever
        discovered. Gommern and Hassleben are in Germany. These graves
        included objects from the Black Sea region and the dead even got a
        Charons penny in their mouths, indicating that some Greek practices
        had travelled north as well.

        Cheers
        Dirk
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