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RE: [gothic-l] Re: Gothic & Greek B in Slabonic

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  • Егоров Владимир
    ****** Hi Llama nom! Thank you for an interesting and useful excursus, but Finnish
    Message 1 of 38 , Aug 31, 2004
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      ******<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

      Hi Llama nom!

      Thank you for an interesting and useful excursus,
      but Finnish borrowings from Common Germanic remain
      a mystery. It is a pity. All the rest has a little
      connection to Gothic.

      No one contends against the fact that the Slavs
      borrowed the word <korabl'> just because they
      had not got practice in seafaring and just from Greek
      because the Greeks had it a lot. The point is whether
      the loan took place in a written or oral way.
      The first one is easily explainable while the second
      needs a serious elucidation of early contacts between
      the Slavs and Greeks.

      I can't say anything about <*oldija> as a ship, but
      Old Russian knew the word <lodja> as a big boat
      (<ladja> in modern Russian with the same meaning
      and an archaic shade, also the chess rook).
      As far as I know, this word is assumed to be
      original Russian. The modern Russian for a boat is
      <lodka> where the root is <lod>, <k> is a diminutive
      suffix, and <a> is an ending (N. fem.). However,
      the root <lod> is not productive in Russian that
      implicitly allows a borrowing to be surmised.

      I have no substantial comments on istuba >> izba.
      I encountered the opinion deriving <izba> from Germanic
      but never heard about any Romance sources. Moreover,
      my mind fails to imagine the Romans living in izbas.
      The common sense supposes a northern origin of the word.
      I seem the general appearance of the word looks as Baltic.


      -----Original Message-----
      From: llama_nom [mailto:penterakt@...]
      Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2004 4:15 PM
      To: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [gothic-l] Re: Gothic & Greek B in Slabonic

      --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, ������ �������� <vegorov@i...> wrote:
      > ****<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-
      com:office:office" />
      > Finnish borrowings from the Common Germanic are
      > an intriguing riddle that gives me no rest.
      > Where and when the Finns had contacts with speakers
      > of Common Germanic? Besides, is the form <hlaibaz>
      > really attested in Germanic? (BTW, the same question
      > in respect of the form <hlaibaR> in ON.)
      > However that may be, Finnish actually has borrowings
      > from Common Germanic, not Norse, that is a fact and--
      > a mystery!

      Hi Vladimir,

      I'm not aware of of any Proto-Norse inscriptions containing the word
      *hlaibaz/*hlaibaR itself, but there is attested, on the Tune rune-
      stone, Norway c. 400, a Proto-Norse compound word, or perhaps a
      phrase: WITANDAHALAIBAN. This is usually taken as a compound of
      witanda- 'protecting' + hlaiba, dat. sg. masculine n-stem, a
      derivative of hlaibaR 'bread'. The sense is probably 'lord',
      literally 'bread-protector', cf. MnE lord < OE hlaford < hlaf +
      weard, with the same meaning. Alternatively, HALAIBA (the first A is
      a parasitic/svarabhakti vowel, quite common in these inscriptions)
      might represent a Proto-Norse cognate of Got. gahlaiba, OHG
      galeipo 'comrade, colleague, companion' (literally: 'mess-mate,
      someone you eat bread together with). For more details, see the
      indepth discussion of the Tune inscription on the Theudiskon group
      some months ago, and check out the Kiel Runenprojekt site, which
      offers the interpretations of various scholars.

      > If it is of interest, the pronunciation _hlep_
      > in Russian is not a "development" from _hleb_.
      > In all Slavonic languages, more or less, voiced stops
      > at the end of words are pronounced as paired unvoiced.
      > That is, <hleb> is a written form, which was pronounced,
      > from the very beginning, as _hlep_. To compare,
      > the genitive is <hleba> with the same pronunciation _hleba_.
      > I have mentioned this example only in order to show that
      > a Slavonic ear took Gothic <hlaifs> as containing a stop
      > (its voicing is here of no importance) rather than
      > a fricative (Old Slavonic knew both _f_ and _v_).
      > Perhaps this feature sheds a little light upon specificity
      > of the Gothic _b/f_.

      The early runic inscriptions don't necessarily offer much clue about
      the development of <b>, since in the earliest times, the same rune
      was used initially for a stop and medially for a fricative. Probably
      when they were invented the initial sound was a fricative too.
      An early borrowing into Latin, Suevi, suggests as we'd expect a
      fricative medially rather than a stop. Ptolemy, writing in Greek,
      has Sueeboi, presumably also representing a fricative, but without
      the means of making that clear.

      Some more Latin spellings of Gothic names (reconstructed on the

      Recciverga (657) < -bairga
      Sunhivadus (6th c.) < Sunjabadws
      Tilgeva (6/7th c.) < Tilagiba

      Spellings such as fragibtim (L 1,27) suggest that the fluctuation in
      the manuscripts of voiced and voiceless spirants was not necessarily
      reflected in speech, but might just be analogical spellings. The
      admittedly late (9/10th c.) Vienna-Salzburg codex regularly
      transcribes Gothic final <s> into Roman script as <z>, but this could
      be voiceless following the conventions of OHG.

      I've read one idea that the Slavs may have taken the Germanic/Gothic
      word for bread because previously they only knew rye bread, and the
      loan was a useful term to refer to the innovation of wheat bread,
      which perhaps reached Germanic areas first.

      > Of course, it is hardly to suppose the word <korabl'>
      > having been an early borrowing as the Slavs never were
      > seafarers and just did not sense necessity in borrowing
      > words to express a notion of a ship (vessel) until
      > the word appeared in translated Greek texts.

      I wonder... Often the lack of a commodity or practice among one
      people is taken as grounds for accepting loanwords from another
      culture which does have that practice, whether the practise itself is
      adopted too, or just the idea. That is to say: If the Greeks had a
      certain kind of boat the Slavs didn't, the Slavs could well have
      taken the Greek name for it (Whether they actually did or not at an
      early date, is another matter...). But I'm always a bit suspicious
      of theoretical proofs of what words could or couldn't be borrowed,
      let alone must or must not! They can help us to consider the
      likelihood, but if we follow the theory too dogmatically, we end up
      ignoring the quirkiness of history. Sometimes words for quite
      familiar concepts are borrowed, for cultural reasons which might not
      be clear to us now. Or in some cases there may have been a nuance in
      meaning which is now obscure. To know the full story, we might need
      to consider not only the subtly shifting meanings of the words in
      question, but how they fit into the evolving web of semanticly
      related concepts.

      Do you know anything about a Slavonic word *oldija 'ship' (Entwhistle
      & Moris) which is supposed to lie behind OIc ellidi 'a kind of ship'
      (Zoega). This could be a case in point. The Varangians/Rus
      presumably had a wider knowledge of ships than the Slavs at the time
      of contact, but maybe this word originally stood for a type of boat
      the Norsemen didn't know. Or the word might just have been used back
      in Scandinavia for the sake of local colour, or out of sheer love of
      words, or as a synonym for the sake of rhyme and alliteration (or
      obscurity) in their poetry. In Fridthjof's Saga, Ellidi appears as
      the proper name of a ship.

      Also, what do you think about the etymology of OB istuba, Russ.
      izba? I've seen two radically different ideas about this, one
      deriving it (and presumed relatives outside of Slavonic) ultimately
      from Romance (perhaps via German), the other from a native Germanic

      (Excuse the rant!)

      Llama Nom

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • faltin2001
      ... CE? Wow! Is that must from runic evidence? And that must be Scandanavian. Maybe that is too far west. Still, what a shocking omission. It disappoints me
      Message 38 of 38 , Sep 16, 2004
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        --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, James Young <daddio52@s...> wrote:
        > Hail Llama Nom,
        > Sorry for the delay.
        > Did you say that there was no German word for "Greeks" before 350
        CE? Wow! Is that must from runic evidence? And that must be
        Scandanavian. Maybe that is too far west. Still, what a shocking
        omission. It disappoints me to learn that there were no German
        stories of Persians or Parthians, no references to Cyrus or Darius
        and their trans Danube forays.


        I read some articles about the Germanic graves of Gommern (ca. 300)
        and Hassleben. The former is the riches Germanic grave ever
        discovered. Gommern and Hassleben are in Germany. These graves
        included objects from the Black Sea region and the dead even got a
        Charons penny in their mouths, indicating that some Greek practices
        had travelled north as well.

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