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Re: Gothic font

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  • F.E.J.D. IV
    Greetings, This has become a very confusing thread. Oscar wrote:
    Message 1 of 15 , Aug 1, 2004
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      Greetings,
      This has become a very confusing thread.

      Oscar wrote:
      <I know its of gothic origins, manie. i see alot of names in spain of
      <gothic origins.i go there every month.

      1).
      Oscar, how can you say (YOU KNOW) it is of Gothic origin? Just because
      someone goes to Spain every month and sees many Gothic names does not
      make their assertions correct.
      2).
      I wonder about your spelling, perhaps you meant - Castelldefels? I
      have never seen it spelled (castlefels), nor can I find a city (thus
      spelled) on a map of Spain?
      3).
      Even so, Francisc and Mannie are correct (castell; castellum,
      castilla; castillo) are all derived from the Latin << castellum >>. It
      is NOT a Germanic/Gothic word at all. BTW the city of "Castelldefells"
      is (I believe) in Catalonia and I spell it here as it would be in the
      Catalan Language.
      4).
      Nonetheless, the area known as Castilla (Castile) was the area most
      densely settled by the Visigoths. I have heard say that about 1 - 2%
      of toponyms in this area and to the North are of Germanic origin,
      however, I have never seen a list or a study on the latter.
      5).
      There are two toponyms that pertain to Germanic groups in Spain. One
      such is Catalonia, said to be derived from "Gotalonia" (the place of
      the Goths), but I cannot attest to it since I have not consulted
      reliable sources. The other is Andalusia, it is said to be derived
      from Vandalusia, (the land of the Vandals), this seems to be well
      attested.
      6).
      Also, the name of the city of "Burgos" is said to be of Germanic
      origin, however, I am not sure whether it is Suebic or Gothic, perhaps
      Francisc can elucidate on this word?


      Cheers,
      F.E.J.D
    • Francisc Czobor
      Dear Fernando, I m affraid that I m not the authority to elucidate this issue; I have to remind that I m only an amateur in linguistics. From my point of view,
      Message 2 of 15 , Aug 2, 2004
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        Dear Fernando,

        I'm affraid that I'm not the authority to elucidate this issue; I
        have to remind that I'm only an amateur in linguistics.
        From my point of view, "Burgos" seems to be rather Suebic than Gothic.
        If of Germanic origin, then it is cognate with the terms related to
        German Burg "castle".
        In Gothic the equivalent is baúrgs (pronounced [borgs]), whereas in
        Suebic (a West-Germanic language) it should be something similar to
        Old High German (OHG) burg. Spanish had not the tendency to shift
        short [o] > short [u], in the contrary, like all the western Romanic
        languages, it changed short [u] > short [o]. Thus, if the word would
        be Gothic, it should be Borg(-os).
        Unclear for me is the ending -os. Apparently, it looks like a Gothic
        plural form (like wulfs, pl. wulfos, dags, pl. dagos, etc.), but this
        applies to thematic nouns, and Gothic baúrgs (like OHG burg) is a
        feminine athematic noun, having the nominative plural baúrgs
        (identical with the singular). Maybe this ending comes from Spanish?
        What is sure is that your first name comes from Gothic: Fridinandus
        (Latinized) < *Frithu-nanths.

        Francisc


        --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "F.E.J.D. IV" <visigoth@a...> wrote:
        > ...
        > Also, the name of the city of "Burgos" is said to be of Germanic
        > origin, however, I am not sure whether it is Suebic or Gothic,
        perhaps
        > Francisc can elucidate on this word?
        >
        >
        > Cheers,
        > F.E.J.D
      • F.E.J.D. IV
        Dear Francisc, Please also see my next post regarding Gothic names. Francisc, I think many of us have forgotten that you modestly consider yourself an
        Message 3 of 15 , Aug 3, 2004
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          Dear Francisc,

          Please also see my next post regarding "Gothic" names.

          Francisc, I think many of us have forgotten that you "modestly"
          consider yourself an "amateur", however your explanation was quite
          astute and I consider this list fortunate to have you on board. --

          Lore had it that Burgos was founded in about 884 by Diego Rodriguez
          heir to the first Count of Castile, Rodrigo I, however, it is now
          widely accepted by historians that Burgos already existed a few
          (centuries) before this proclamation. Records show that in 864 another
          leader named Gundisalviz had already defended Burgos against invaders.
          The latter and the fact that Burgos is located in the fringes of the
          Southeastern areas of what was once the Suebic kingdom and the
          Northwestern areas of the densest area of Visigothic settlement
          indicates that geographically and chronologically, Burgos could have
          been founded by either people (Suebi or Visigoths), but Even if it
          were founded in the 9th C, it would mean that the Germanic word Burg
          (whether Suebic or Gothic) had already somehow found its way into the
          "formative" Castilian language (which at the time had not yet even
          taken its medieval form). BTW I seem to remember somewhere
          (Gamillscheg perhaps) that the word Burgos is (as you surmize) most
          likely of Suebic provenance.

          Cheers,
          F.E.J.D. IV
          (Frithunanths Alatheus Ximenez Diaz)
        • F.E.J.D. IV
          Dear Francisc, Thank you for your response and the information concerning my Gothic name Frithunanths . Indeed, for some time I have known that my first name
          Message 4 of 15 , Aug 3, 2004
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            Dear Francisc,

            Thank you for your response and the information concerning my Gothic
            name "Frithunanths".
            Indeed, for some time I have known that my first name Fernando comes
            from the Gothic Frithu (peaceful?) + Nanths (daring or brave?). I also
            believe that my second name Eladio may (as my family and others have
            told me) also be of Gothic origin by way of the name Alatheus. --
            Alatheus is attested to have been a *Tervingi Goth and a young general
            said to have commanded the cavalry at that battle of Hadrianople under
            Fritigern. (*I am not sure however, if the appellation "Tervingi" is
            correct by this period of time).

            I wonder if you or others may know something about the name Alatheus?

            Cheers,
            Frithunanths Alatheus Ximenez Diaz
            ( Fernando Eladio Jimenez Diaz )
            Fern

            --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "Francisc Czobor" <fericzobor@y...>
            wrote:
            > Dear Fernando,
            >
            > From my point of view, "Burgos" seems to be rather Suebic than Gothic.
            -cut-

            > What is sure is that your first name comes from Gothic: Fridinandus
            > (Latinized) < *Frithu-nanths.
            >
            > Francisc
          • Francisc Czobor
            Háils, Frithunanths! According to Annex 3, which deals with Gothic names, of Köbler s Gotisches Wörterbuch
            Message 5 of 15 , Aug 4, 2004
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              Háils, Frithunanths!

              According to Annex 3, which deals with Gothic names, of
              Köbler's "Gotisches Wörterbuch"
              (http://www.koeblergerhard.de/germanistischewoerterbuecher/gotischeswo
              erterbuch/GotischeNamen.pdf)
              the 4th century Gothic name Alatheus would be in classical (Wulfilan)
              Gothic Alaþius (Alathius). Thus it is formed by ala-"all" and þius
              (thius) "thrall, servant, boy".
              Jordanes writes about Alatheus in Getica XXVI-XXVII, in the section
              dealing with the Visigoths ("Vesegothae"):
              "XXV (131) The Visigoths ("Vesegothae"), who were their other allies
              and inhabitants of the western country, were terrified as their
              kinsmen had been, and knew not how to plan for safety against the
              race of the Huns. After long deliberation by common consent they
              finally sent ambassadors into Romania to the Emperor Valens, brother
              of Valentinian, the elder Emperor, to say that if he would give them
              part of Thrace or Moesia to keep, they would submit themselves to his
              laws and commands. That he might have greater confidence in them,
              they promised to become Christians, if he would give them teachers
              who spoke their language. (132) When Valens learned this, he gladly
              and promptly granted what he had himself intended to ask. He received
              the Getae into the region of Moesia and placed them there as a wall
              of defense for his kingdom against other tribes. And since at that
              time the Emperor Valens, who was infected with the Arian perfidy, had
              closed all the churches of our party, he sent as preachers to them
              those who favored his sect. They came and straightway filled a rude
              and ignorant people with the poison of their heresy. Thus the Emperor
              Valens made the Visigoths Arians rather than Christians. (133)
              Moreover, from the love they bore them, they preached the gospel both
              to the Ostrogoths and to their kinsmen the Gepidae, teaching them to
              reverence this heresy, and they invited all people of their speech
              everywhere to attach themselves to this sect. They themselves as we
              have said, crossed the Danube and settled Dacia Ripensis, Moesia and
              Thrace by permission of the Emperor.
              XXVI (134) Soon famine and want came upon them, as often happens to a
              people not yet well settled in a country. Their princes and the
              leaders who ruled them in place of kings, that is Fritigern,
              **ALATHEUS** and Safrac, began to lament the plight of their army and
              begged Lupicinus and Maximus, the Roman commanders, to open a market.
              But to what will not the "cursed lust for gold" compel men to assent?
              The generals, swayed by avarice, sold them at a high price not only
              the flesh of sheep and oxen, but even the carcasses of dogs and
              unclean animals, so that a slave would be bartered for a loaf of
              bread or ten pounds of meat. (135) When their goods and chattels
              failed, the greedy trader demanded their sons in return for the
              necessities of life. And the parents consented even to this, in order
              to provide for the safety of their children, arguing that it was
              better to lose liberty than life; and indeed it is better that one be
              sold, if he will be mercifully fed, than that he should be kept free
              only to die.
              Now it came to pass in that troubIous time that Lupicinus, the Roman
              general, invited Fritigern, a chieftain of the Goths, to a feast and,
              as the event revealed, devised a plot against him. (136) But
              Fritigern, thinking no evil, came to the feast with a few followers.
              While he was dining in the praetorium he heard the dying cries of his
              ill-fated men, for, by order of the general, the soldiers were
              slaying his companions who were shut up in another part of the house.
              The loud cries of the dying fell upon ears already suspicious, and
              Fritigern at once perceived the treacherous trick. He drew his sword
              and with great courage dashed quickly from the banqueting-hall,
              rescued his men from their threatening doom and incited them to slay
              the Romans. (137) Thus these valiant men gained the chance they had
              longed for--to be free to die in battle rather than to perish of
              hunger--and immediately took arms to kill the generals Lupicinus and
              Maximus. Thus that day put an end to the famine of the Goths and the
              safety of the Romans, for the Goths no longer as strangers and
              pilgrims, but as citizens and lords, began to rule the inhabitants
              and to hold in their own right all the northern country as far as the
              Danube.
              (138) When the Emperor Valens heard of this at Antioch, he made ready
              an army at once and set out for the country of Thrace. Here a
              grievous battle took place and the Goths prevailed. The Emperor
              himself was wounded and fled to a farm near Hadrianople. The Goths,
              not knowing that an emperor lay hidden in so poor a hut, set fire to
              it (as is customary in dealing with a cruel foe), and thus he was
              cremated in royal splendor. Plainly it was a direct judgment of God
              that he should be burned with fire by the very men whom he had
              perfidiously led astray when they sought the true faith, turning them
              aside from the flame of love into the fire of hell. From this time
              the Visigoths, in consequence of their glorious victory, possessed
              Thrace and Dacia Ripensis as if it were their native land.
              XXVII (139) Now in the place of Valens, his uncle, the Emperor
              Gratian established Theodosius the Spaniard in the Eastern Empire.
              Military discipline was soon restored to a high level, and the Goth,
              perceiving that the cowardice and sloth of former princes was ended,
              became afraid. For the Emperor was famed alike for his acuteness and
              discretion. By stern commands and by generosity and kindness he
              encouraged a demoralized army to deeds of daring. (140) But when the
              soldiers, who had obtained a better leader by the change, gained new
              confidence, they sought to attack the Goths and drive them from the
              borders of Thrace. But as the Emperor Theodosius fell so sick at this
              time that his life was almost despaired of, the Goths were again
              inspired with courage. Dividing the Gothic army, Fritigern set out to
              plunder Thessaly, Epirus and Achaia, while **ALATHEUS** and Safrac
              with the rest of the troops made for Pannonia. (141) Now the Emperor
              Gratian had at this time retreated from Rome to Gaul because of the
              invasions of the Vandals. When he learned that the Goths were acting
              with greater boldness because Theodosius was in despair of his life,
              he quickly gathered an army and came against them. Yet he put no
              trust in arms, but sought to conquer them by kindness and gifts. So
              he entered on a truce with them and made peace, giving them
              provisions."
              (http://www.acs.ucalgary.ca/~vandersp/Courses/texts/jordgeti.html)
              (http://www.thelatinlibrary.com/iordanes.html)

              With best regards,
              Francisc
            • F.E.J.D. IV
              Francisc, Thank you kindly for your explanation. I tried your link to Koebler s dictionary but I could not get it to work. Nonetheless, I was able to find an
              Message 6 of 15 , Aug 4, 2004
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                Francisc,
                Thank you kindly for your explanation.
                I tried your link to Koebler's dictionary but I could not get it to
                work. Nonetheless, I was able to find an alternate viable page and was
                able to download it in PDF format; the link is:

                www.koeblergerhard.de/germanistischewoerterbuecher/
                gotischeswoerterbuch/NE-GOT.pdf

                As concerns your explanation, I suppose it might be possible to
                understand the analysis of Alathius : (ala-"all") + (thius- "thrall,
                servant, boy") in two different ways. One such might give the
                understanding of a mendicant slave who waits on everyone. The other
                might possibly be more in keeping with someone who had been given the
                time the training and the grooming to eventually command the allied
                Gothic cavalry as is evidenced in the Getica at the battle of
                Hadrianople. The latter example may support understanding the name
                Alatheus as one in the service of the Thiuda; a stoic caretaker
                sacrificing himself in “service” to “all” the people. I suppose I m=
                ust
                warn everyone however, I am not an onomastician or linguist; caveat
                lector.
                Comments are welcomed.

                Thanks again Francisc.
                Cheers,
                Fernando Eladio Jiménez Díaz

                Gothically,
                (Frithunanths Alatheus Ximénez Díaz)
              • F.E.J.D. IV
                Correction: Diacritical marks in my previous post #7870 did not display correctly towards the end of the post. It is meant to read: The latter example may
                Message 7 of 15 , Aug 4, 2004
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                  Correction:
                  Diacritical marks in my previous post #7870 did not display correctly
                  towards the end of the post.

                  It is meant to read:

                  The latter example may support understanding the name Alatheus as one
                  in the service of the Thiuda; a stoic caretaker sacrificing himself in
                  "service" to "all" the people. I suppose I must warn everyone however,
                  I am not an onomatologist or linguist; caveat lector.
                  Comments are welcomed.

                  Thanks again Francisc.
                  Cheers,
                  Fernando Eladio Jiménez Dí­az

                  Gothically,
                  (Frithunanths Alatheus Ximéez Dí­az)
                • Francisc Czobor
                  Hi, Fernando, you didn t succeed to get the link to Koebler s Annex 3 (Gothic Names) probably because you tried to click on the link in my message. But,
                  Message 8 of 15 , Aug 5, 2004
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                    Hi, Fernando,

                    you didn't succeed to get the link to Koebler's Annex 3 (Gothic
                    Names) probably because you tried to click on the link in my message.
                    But, unfortunately, that addess was not displayed in one row, so in
                    this case you would click on a truncated link that obviously will
                    give an error. Therefore you have to retype the address in order to
                    accede to it.
                    Regarding your explanations regarding ala-thius, I also consider that
                    the second variant is more plasible.

                    Best regards,
                    Francisc


                    --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "F.E.J.D. IV" <visigoth@a...> wrote:
                    > Francisc,
                    > Thank you kindly for your explanation.
                    > I tried your link to Koebler's dictionary but I could not get it to
                    > work. Nonetheless, I was able to find an alternate viable page and
                    was
                    > able to download it in PDF format; the link is:
                    >
                    > www.koeblergerhard.de/germanistischewoerterbuecher/
                    > gotischeswoerterbuch/NE-GOT.pdf
                    >
                    > As concerns your explanation, I suppose it might be possible to
                    > understand the analysis of Alathius : (ala-"all") + (thius-
                    "thrall,
                    > servant, boy") in two different ways. One such might give the
                    > understanding of a mendicant slave who waits on everyone. The other
                    > might possibly be more in keeping with someone who had been given
                    the
                    > time the training and the grooming to eventually command the allied
                    > Gothic cavalry as is evidenced in the Getica at the battle of
                    > Hadrianople. The latter example may support understanding the name
                    > Alatheus as one in the service of the Thiuda; a stoic caretaker
                    > sacrificing himself in “service” to “all” the people. I
                    suppose I m=
                    > ust
                    > warn everyone however, I am not an onomastician or linguist; caveat
                    > lector.
                    > Comments are welcomed.
                    >
                    > Thanks again Francisc.
                    > Cheers,
                    > Fernando Eladio Jiménez Díaz
                    >
                    > Gothically,
                    > (Frithunanths Alatheus Ximénez Díaz)
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