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Visigoths not "Booted Out"

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  • F.E.J.D. IV
    James, You seem to be somewhat confused about this period of history. The Visigoths were absolutely not as you say booted out of Spain . Neither is there
    Message 1 of 43 , Jul 20, 2004
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      James,
      You seem to be somewhat confused about this period of history.
      The Visigoths were absolutely not as you say "booted out of Spain".
      Neither is there evidence of any meaningful emigration outside of
      Spain after their defeat in 711. Rather- after Guadalete, a great many
      of remaining Visigoths retreated to Asturias, an area never occupied
      by the moors. It is from Asturias that an organized resistance against
      the moors (see covadonga) began under the leadership of Pelagius,
      attested in period documents to have been a Visigoth noble and one of
      King Roderick's bodyguards. Fafila, the son of Pelagius was actually
      recognized as Rex Gothorum (King of the Goths) by the Pope after his
      father's death. Roderick was of course the last king of the Toletan
      Gothia. I might also add that some Visigoths were allowed to stay-on
      in their lands in Castile, (North-Central Spain)and elsewhere after
      the moorish invasion, however, the conditions under which they existed
      became increasingly intolerable and led to what is termed as the
      "Martyr's Movement". The intolerable conditions leading to the
      Martyr's Movement caused many individuals, the majority being
      Visigoths, to migrate northward to Asturias and Leon in northern
      Spain. By that time a considerable amount of territory had already
      been retaken from the moors. The latter migration is well documented
      in period documents once archived at the library of the monastery of
      Sahagun and subsequent onomastic research. (Fortunately, there is a
      wealth of documentation in Spain even from the time of the Visigoths,
      which unfortunately has not yet been fully exploited by researchers).
      A paper, based on such documents and whose findings further support
      the stated migration was recently published and accounts for a sudden
      dearth of Gothic names in the Visigothic area under Moorish control
      and a subsequent flood of Gothic names in the areas under Christian
      control to the north in Asturias and Leon. I will present some
      highlights of that paper at a later time.

      Cheers,
      F.E.J.D.


      --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "James Young" <daddio52@s...> wrote:
      > The Visigoths had just been booted out of Spain and the Franks didn't
      > want them. Some of them probably went back to their old homeland from
      > Roman days. I wonder if they had to get permission from
      > Constantinople? The Turks still hadn't gotten to Turkey.
      >
      > Kon52476
    • llama_nom
      Some sources for Gothic loans in German & Bavarian. INTERNET: http://www.bayerische-sprache.de/Index/Rundbriefe/ Rundbrief%20Nr.% 2049%20-%20Maerz%202004.pdf
      Message 43 of 43 , Aug 18, 2004
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        Some sources for Gothic loans in German & Bavarian.

        INTERNET:
        http://www.bayerische-sprache.de/Index/Rundbriefe/ Rundbrief%20Nr.%
        2049%20-%20Maerz%202004.pdf
        http://www.degruyter.de/rfiles/p/3110112574Textprobe.pdf

        PRINT:
        Wiesinger, Peter (1985) "Gotische Lehnwoerter im Bairischen", in
        Fruemittelalterliche Ethnogenese im Alpenraum, 153-200


        Here are some of the German words claimed as from Gothic, or from
        Greek/Latin through the medium of Gothic:

        STANDARD HIGH GERMAN:
        Ablass < aflet(s)
        anst < ansts
        Bischof < Aipiskopus
        Engel < Aggilus
        erfuellen < usfulljan
        glauben < galaubjan
        Kirche < *kiriko?
        Pfaffe < papa
        Pfingsten (see: pfinstag)
        taufen < daupjan
        Teufel < diabulus

        OHG
        wih < weihs
        nerrendeo, nerrento < nasjands

        BAVARIAN:
        dult < dulths
        maut < mota
        pfaid < paida
        Ertag, Irta, etc. < *arjausdags
        Pfinstag, Pfinsta, etc. < *pintadags


        COMMENTS:
        Some of these, like Ablass, might be calques, "loan translations",
        rather than loanwords as such. Some, like nerrento, wih, erfuellen,
        etc., could just as well be native German words, cognate with the
        Gothic ones, used by later missionaries for the same reason as the
        Goths chose them: because they had the right meaning. Or the use of
        nerrento might owe something to Anglo-Saxon missionaries, cf. OE
        neriend. Of course, certain of the English cognates are ultimately
        loans, maybe via Gothic (OE deofol, engel, cirica). The regional
        preference in OHG for certain words in the south: wih, versus
        Franconian heilag; anst, vesus Franconian geba/huldi - might in some
        cases reflect Gothic influence, or it could just be due to later
        missions, or arbitrary differences.

        Kirche/church might have been an early loans from Latin direct into
        West Germanic. (It is not thought to have come into German from with
        the Anglo-Saxon missionaries.) But the normal word in the Latin west
        was ecclesia (or basilica), hence the forms in the modern Romance and
        Celtic languages. And according to the OED, "Ulphilas... belonged to
        the very region and time for which we have the most weighty evidence
        for the [rare] use of [Gk.] kuriakon [in the sense of a church
        building]". The derivation of the word is even discussed by Walafrid
        in the 9th century, with reference to the Goths in the Greek
        provinces.

        Re: dulths, Koebler cites a suggestion by Lehmann, that it might be
        from Latin indultum 'Erlaubnis' - but this is just a guess, I think.


        Llama Nom



        --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "faltin2001" <dirk@s...> wrote:
        > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <penterakt@f...> wrote:
        > >
        > > Hi Dirk,
        > >
        > > I'd be interested to see a list of the Gothic loanwords into
        > > Bavarian; I'm especially curious about the "Gothic words which
        are
        > > uniquely preserved in Bavarian".
        >
        >
        > Hi,
        >
        > I will have to dig out the article I refered to earlier. One
        Bavarian
        > word that springs to mind is 'Dulds' for festival.
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Do you know if these include any
        > > others apart from the days of the week?
        > >
        > > How certain is it that Pfait is a Gothic loan? The word is also
        > > found in Old English, as PAD, with compounds such as HEREPAD (war-
        > > shirt = armour) and HASUPAD (grey-shirt = wolf). According to
        > > Priebsch & Collinson "The German Language", OHG pfeit "seems to
        > have
        > > been shifted from a Thracian word BAITEE for a sheepskin".
        (BAITEE
        > is
        > > spelt in Greek letters, I used EE for Gk. eta.)
        >
        >
        >
        > That seem possible. I had not heard of Pfait as a Gothic loanword
        > before Francisc mentioned it.
        >
        >
        >
        > >
        > > Is AU the normal development of Gmc. long U: in Bavarian, as in
        > > standard Modern High German? If so, this might point to the
        > > confusion in Gothic between O: and U:, and I guess the final T in
        > > Maut would imply that it was borrowed after the High German
        > consonant
        > > shift. So this looks quite a good candidate.
        > >
        > > The "supposedly Crimean" TELICH, of course, being so very similar
        > to
        > > the Low German, raises the question of how much Bousbeque was
        > > assimilating the forms of these Gothic words to those of German
        or
        > > Dutch words he was more familiar with. I wonder what the
        etymology
        > > of this is.
        >
        >
        >
        > I don't know. But you are right many or most of Busbeque's Crimean
        > Gothis words are really Low German/Flemmish.
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > >
        > > Another thought: is there any evidence of Gothic vocabulary in
        the
        > > Alemannic dialects of Switzerland?
        >
        >
        >
        > I am no aware of any study on this issue.
        >
        > Cheers
        > Dirk
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