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Spanish Goths

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  • F.E.J.D. IV
    Cagots, en folkstam, som annu lefver på snorra slutninggarna af Pyreneerna afvensom I Bretagne, Poitou, Gascogne och Guienne I Frankrike samt I Baskiska
    Message 1 of 18 , Jun 6, 2004
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      Cagots, en folkstam, som annu lefver på snorra slutninggarna af
      Pyreneerna afvensom I Bretagne, Poitou, Gascogne och Guienne I
      Frankrike samt I Baskiska provinserna I Spanien. Den uppkom i 13:de
      årh. och härstammar från spetälska personer, som uteslutis ur
      samhället. Under flere århundraden behandlades cagots som parias. De
      fingo gifta sig endast med hvarandra, voro uteslunta från åtskilliga
      verksamhetsområden, måste under gudstjensten uppehålla sig i ett
      afskildt rum i kyrkan o. S. V. Oaktadt lagstiftningen och
      lagskipningen redan på 1600-talet sökte skydda dem och 1789 års
      revolution gafdem medborgerliga råtigheter, har dock fördomen mot dem
      ännu icke helt och hållet gifvit sig. Deras utseende och språk skilja
      sig icke från den omgifvande befolkningens. I Pyreneerna äro de i
      allmänhet snickare eller tunnbindare. Jfr V. De Rochas, "Les parias de
      France et d'Espagne" (1876) och en på detta arbete grundad uppsats sf
      Louis-Laude, "Les Cagots et leur congeneres" (i Revue des deux mondes
      for 1878).

      Cheers
      F.E.J.D.
    • Denis Glenard
      Hi Fernando, ... I guess my shortcut was too simplistic. What I mean is, IF there are some populations nowadays the origin of whom can be definitely traced to
      Message 2 of 18 , Jun 6, 2004
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        Hi Fernando,


        > I was so surprised when you brought up the Cagots. They are rarely
        > ever mentioned. I am curious to know how you ever heard of them? --

        Well, I'm versed in basque genealogy, therefore the Cagots are a recurrent theme, especially whenever someone asks questions about the Baztán valley in upper-Navarre. I like the mistery surrounding them, so if we can learn more about their true origins it will help clear their ill (and undeserved) reputation. Hence what follows:



        >>Now, my question is, these people having stayed separate from the
        >> rest of the >population for quite a long time, wouldn't specific
        >> "germanic" genetic markers be present in their descendants' genes ?

        >I hope I understand your question correctly. Simply stated (once in
        >your genes always in your genes).

        I guess my shortcut was too simplistic. What I mean is, IF there are some populations nowadays the origin of whom can be definitely traced to the Visigoths, would they have some specific genetic material that, if also found in the Cagots, would leave no doubt as to the Goth origin of the Cagots ?

        I take it from your answer that it's not that simple or easy...

        If you don't mind, I'll pass your comments to the basque genealogy groups where many people will be interested in learning more about the topic.

        Best regards,

        Denis GLENARD



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Ingemar Nordgren
        Bonjour Denis, Mertci beacoup pour ton aidé. Je veux volontier trouver tous qui est possible. Les langues etrangère pour mois son naturellemant l Angleterre
        Message 3 of 18 , Jun 6, 2004
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          Bonjour Denis,

          Mertci beacoup pour ton aidé. Je veux volontier trouver tous qui est
          possible. Les langues etrangère pour mois son naturellemant
          l'Angleterre et l'Allemande fluissant mais je comprend aussi Français
          resonable et jeu peu lire aussi Espanjol mais pas très bon - je
          comprend le sense. C'est a dire je suis interessé en tous les languages.

          Bonnes saluts
          Ingemar



          --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "Denis Glenard" <denisglenard@y...>
          wrote:
          > Bonjour Ingemar,
          >
          > Pas de problème pour trouver des textes sur les Cagots, il y en a
          beaucoup sur Internet, mais en français ou en espagnol.
          > Il faut savoir qu'il est possible que certains de ces cagots,
          chassés devant les armées arabo-berbères, se soient retrouvés en
          Bretagne, où ils étaient appelés "cagous". Je ne sais pas s'il y a des
          textes en anglais ou en allemand sur ce sujet, puisque je ne sais pas
          comment on les nomme dans ces langues, il est donc difficile de faire
          une recherche.
          >
          > I can try and find out more about the subject in french and / or
          spanish if you wish. Just let me know which of the 3 languages you're
          comfortable with, although my guess is that this list is largely
          english speaking.
        • Ingemar Nordgren
          Exellent! Thank you very much. Merci beacoup! Ingemar ... Francisque, 1847) ... Idoate, 1973)
          Message 4 of 18 , Jun 6, 2004
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            Exellent! Thank you very much. Merci beacoup!

            Ingemar




            --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "Denis Glenard" <denisglenard@y...>
            wrote:
            > Here is a bibliography on the subject:
            >
            > "Histoire des races Maudites de la France et de l'Espagne" (Michel
            Francisque, 1847)
            > "Histoire del Peuples et des Etats Pyrenees " (Cenac Moncaut, 1873)
            > "Las horas solitarias" (Pío Baroja, 1918)
            > "El barrio maldito" (Félix Urabayen, 1925)
            > "Bozate y los Agotes. Enigma histórico" (Julio Altadil, 1934)
            > "Histoire des Cagots" (Osmin Ricau, 1963)
            > "Documentos sobre agotes y grupos afines en Navarra" (Florencio
            Idoate, 1973)
            > "Los agotes" (María del Carmen Aguirre Delclaux, 1977).
            >
            > Best regards,
            >
            > Denis GLENARD
          • Ingemar Nordgren
            Dear Ferdinand, Thank you very much for this contribution to the understanding of cagotes and their problem. Ingemar
            Message 5 of 18 , Jun 6, 2004
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              Dear Ferdinand,

              Thank you very much for this contribution to the understanding of
              cagotes and their problem.

              Ingemar


              --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "F.E.J.D. IV" <visigoth@a...> wrote:

              >
              > I have some information that may be of help but I think in the end,
              > the Cagots will still be an enigma.
            • Ingemar Nordgren
              Fantastical Fernando! Where did you find this old Swedish text? I am impressed and it is quite amusing to read. Best Ingemar
              Message 6 of 18 , Jun 6, 2004
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                Fantastical Fernando!

                Where did you find this old Swedish text? I am impressed and it is
                quite amusing to read.

                Best
                Ingemar


                --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "F.E.J.D. IV" <visigoth@a...> wrote:
                >
                > Cagots, en folkstam, som annu lefver på snorra slutninggarna af
                > Pyreneerna afvensom I Bretagne, Poitou, Gascogne och Guienne I
                > Frankrike samt I Baskiska provinserna I Spanien. Den uppkom i 13:de
                > årh. och härstammar från spetälska personer, som uteslutis ur
                > samhället. Under flere århundraden behandlades cagots som parias. De
                > fingo gifta sig endast med hvarandra, voro uteslunta från åtskilliga
                > verksamhetsområden, måste under gudstjensten uppehålla sig i ett
                > afskildt rum i kyrkan o. S. V. Oaktadt lagstiftningen och
                > lagskipningen redan på 1600-talet sökte skydda dem och 1789 års
                > revolution gafdem medborgerliga råtigheter, har dock fördomen mot dem
                > ännu icke helt och hållet gifvit sig. Deras utseende och språk skilja
                > sig icke från den omgifvande befolkningens. I Pyreneerna äro de i
                > allmänhet snickare eller tunnbindare. Jfr V. De Rochas, "Les parias de
                > France et d'Espagne" (1876) och en på detta arbete grundad uppsats sf
                > Louis-Laude, "Les Cagots et leur congeneres" (i Revue des deux mondes
                > for 1878).
                >
                > Cheers
                > F.E.J.D.
              • F.E.J.D. IV
                Dear Ingemar, Glad it was of some value. I believe it is either from an 1888 Swedish edition of Weners Konversations Lexicon or from the 1870´s ed. of Nordisk
                Message 7 of 18 , Jun 6, 2004
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                  Dear Ingemar,
                  Glad it was of some value. I believe it is either from an 1888 Swedish
                  edition of Weners Konversations Lexicon or from the 1870´s ed. of
                  Nordisk Familjebok. I will try to verify this in the near future.
                  Unfortunately, I forgot to note the source on the photocopy.

                  Cheers,
                  F.E.J.D.
                  Fernando Eladio Jiménez Díaz


                  --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "Ingemar Nordgren" <ingemar@n...> wrote:
                  > Fantastical Fernando!
                  >
                  > Where did you find this old Swedish text? I am impressed and it is
                  > quite amusing to read.
                  >
                  > Best
                  > Ingemar
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "F.E.J.D. IV" <visigoth@a...> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Cagots, en folkstam, som annu lefver på snorra slutninggarna af
                  > > Pyreneerna afvensom I Bretagne, Poitou, Gascogne och Guienne I
                  > > Frankrike samt I Baskiska provinserna I Spanien. Den uppkom i 13:de
                  > > årh. och härstammar från spetälska personer, som uteslutis ur
                  > > samhället. Under flere århundraden behandlades cagots som parias. De
                  > > fingo gifta sig endast med hvarandra, voro uteslunta från åtskilliga
                  > > verksamhetsområden, måste under gudstjensten uppehålla sig i ett
                  > > afskildt rum i kyrkan o. S. V. Oaktadt lagstiftningen och
                  > > lagskipningen redan på 1600-talet sökte skydda dem och 1789 års
                  > > revolution gafdem medborgerliga råtigheter, har dock fördomen mot dem
                  > > ännu icke helt och hållet gifvit sig. Deras utseende och språk skilja
                  > > sig icke från den omgifvande befolkningens. I Pyreneerna äro de i
                  > > allmänhet snickare eller tunnbindare. Jfr V. De Rochas, "Les parias de
                  > > France et d'Espagne" (1876) och en på detta arbete grundad uppsats sf
                  > > Louis-Laude, "Les Cagots et leur congeneres" (i Revue des deux mondes
                  > > for 1878).
                  > >
                  > > Cheers
                  > > F.E.J.D.
                • F.E.J.D. IV
                  Hello Denis, ... some populations nowadays the origin of whom can be definitely traced to the Visigoths, would they have some specific genetic material that,
                  Message 8 of 18 , Jun 7, 2004
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                    Hello Denis,


                    --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "Denis Glenard" <denisglenard@y...>
                    wrote:
                    > Hi Fernando,

                    > Denis G. wrote:
                    > I guess my shortcut was too simplistic. What I mean is, IF there are
                    some populations nowadays the origin of whom can be definitely traced
                    to the Visigoths, would they have some specific genetic material that,
                    if also found in the Cagots, would leave no doubt as to the Goth
                    origin of the Cagots ?

                    > I take it from your answer that it's not that simple or easy...
                    >

                    I think I have a better handle on your question (now).
                    Though I am a bit uncomfortable with the way the question is phrased -
                    the short, simple and sloppy answer is yes –
                    Nonetheless, the answer is really not so simple for several reasons
                    but the most important reason is because good accuracy demands a
                    foolproof well-connected study. One could make inferences by a small
                    and quick study but it would only answer a "little" question and
                    possibly cause great embarrassment during peer review since it would
                    show a lack of rigor.
                    Secondly, as concerns your strategy, you would have to substantiate
                    the connection between the "present" population you postulate, and the
                    Visigoths; thus, it would be seen as somewhat indirect (several extra
                    steps).

                    There is a more direct strategy. ---One can go directly to sources of
                    "visigothic" organic material, namely, Visigothic necropoli. There are
                    many Visigothic necropoli throughout the Iberian Peninsula. I am not
                    sure if you read through my post where I brought up my "sampling
                    strategy" but I have already collected, amplified and typed numerous
                    samples from the latter, which could be used as references by which we
                    can contrast samples from Cagot cemeteries or any other population.

                    Now, let's go back to the beginning. --------- Although the stated
                    strategy would provide some reasonably good answers (especially as
                    concerns comparisons in Spain) I would feel terribly uncomfortable
                    with the outcome since the study would not be deep enough to have the
                    kind of certainty and breadth that I am comfortable with. Simply
                    stated, the more samples in space and time the more certainty in the
                    outcome. To just sample the necropoli in Spain would be to leave out
                    too much data that could be had by sampling in Gothic necropoli in
                    Italy and Romania and the Black Sea and between the Oder and Vistula
                    and Vastergotland and Gotland. Doing the latter could answer many
                    questions including, just how homogenous the Gothic tribe was at
                    certain points in time. Even more titillating, it could provide a more
                    definitive answer as concerns the area and population from which the
                    formative Gothic tribe acquired its earliest adherents.

                    Cheers,
                    F.E.J.D.





                    > If you don't mind, I'll pass your comments to the Basque genealogy
                    groups where many people will be interested in learning more about the
                    topic.

                    >
                    > Best regards,
                    >
                    > Denis GLENARD
                    >

                    >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • ertydfh110
                    This guy is supposed to be a real Agote descendant. He is from the Batzan Vally in the Pirineos (where many agotes lived). He also played as an Agote in a
                    Message 9 of 18 , Oct 9, 2011
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                      This guy is supposed to be a real Agote descendant. He is from the Batzan Vally in the Pirineos (where many agotes lived). He also played as an Agote in a recent film.

                      Picture:
                      http://zuzeu.com/wp-content/uploads/zuzeu/03_11/4742_medium_xegone.jpg

                      Video:
                      http://www.eitb.com/es/videos/detalle/617762/el-conquistador-entrevista-xegone/
                    • ertydfh110
                      I add another curiosity. In this case it is not an Agote. Last week on Spanish television there was a program about Spanish nobility. There was a man, who is a
                      Message 10 of 18 , Oct 9, 2011
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                        I add another curiosity. In this case it is not an Agote. Last week on Spanish television there was a program about Spanish nobility. There was a man, who is a marques, that in the minute 23:50 he is showing his family genealogy and he says that he is an ancestor or Ervigio, a gothic king:

                        http://www.rtve.es/noticias/20111003/comando-actualidad-zona-noble/465800.shtml

                        From minute 20 he is on the program and on 23:50 he shows his genealogical tree.

                        It is just a curiosity.
                      • OSCAR HERRE
                         my name is derived from the gothic namesakes......i have descendants from noth central sspain and up to the northeastern part at the border of
                        Message 11 of 18 , Oct 9, 2011
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                           my name is derived from the gothic namesakes......i have descendants from noth central sspain and up to the northeastern part at the border of france.......back to the 16th century,,,,,,

                          --- On Sun, 10/9/11, ertydfh110 <ertydfh110@...> wrote:


                          From: ertydfh110 <ertydfh110@...>
                          Subject: [gothic-l] Re: Spanish Goths
                          To: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com
                          Date: Sunday, October 9, 2011, 5:41 PM



                           



                          This guy is supposed to be a real Agote descendant. He is from the Batzan Vally in the Pirineos (where many agotes lived). He also played as an Agote in a recent film.

                          Picture:
                          http://zuzeu.com/wp-content/uploads/zuzeu/03_11/4742_medium_xegone.jpg

                          Video:
                          http://www.eitb.com/es/videos/detalle/617762/el-conquistador-entrevista-xegone/








                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • OSCAR HERRE
                          also read when i was in college thru historical records that the goth were  say like the u. s. marines when they collaborated to turn back the muslim
                          Message 12 of 18 , Oct 9, 2011
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                            also read when i was in college thru historical records that the goth were  say like the u. s. marines when they collaborated to turn back the muslim invasion......

                            --- On Sun, 10/9/11, ertydfh110 <ertydfh110@...> wrote:


                            From: ertydfh110 <ertydfh110@...>
                            Subject: [gothic-l] Re: Spanish Goths
                            To: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com
                            Date: Sunday, October 9, 2011, 5:57 PM



                             



                            I add another curiosity. In this case it is not an Agote. Last week on Spanish television there was a program about Spanish nobility. There was a man, who is a marques, that in the minute 23:50 he is showing his family genealogy and he says that he is an ancestor or Ervigio, a gothic king:

                            http://www.rtve.es/noticias/20111003/comando-actualidad-zona-noble/465800.shtml

                            From minute 20 he is on the program and on 23:50 he shows his genealogical tree.

                            It is just a curiosity.








                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • OSCAR HERRE
                            the goths changed all western european history thru their trimphs and tribulations and yet they have only chosen a modest civilized world with peace and
                            Message 13 of 18 , Oct 9, 2011
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                              the goths changed all western european history thru their trimphs and tribulations and yet they have only chosen a modest civilized world with peace and prosperity....

                              --- On Sun, 10/9/11, ertydfh110 <ertydfh110@...> wrote:


                              From: ertydfh110 <ertydfh110@...>
                              Subject: [gothic-l] Re: Spanish Goths
                              To: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com
                              Date: Sunday, October 9, 2011, 5:57 PM



                               



                              I add another curiosity. In this case it is not an Agote. Last week on Spanish television there was a program about Spanish nobility. There was a man, who is a marques, that in the minute 23:50 he is showing his family genealogy and he says that he is an ancestor or Ervigio, a gothic king:

                              http://www.rtve.es/noticias/20111003/comando-actualidad-zona-noble/465800.shtml

                              From minute 20 he is on the program and on 23:50 he shows his genealogical tree.

                              It is just a curiosity.








                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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