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Re: [gothic-l] Re: Spanish Goths

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  • Denis Glenard
    Bonjour Ingemar, Pas de problème pour trouver des textes sur les Cagots, il y en a beaucoup sur Internet, mais en français ou en espagnol. Il faut savoir
    Message 1 of 18 , Jun 5, 2004
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      Bonjour Ingemar,

      Pas de problème pour trouver des textes sur les Cagots, il y en a beaucoup sur Internet, mais en français ou en espagnol.
      Il faut savoir qu'il est possible que certains de ces cagots, chassés devant les armées arabo-berbères, se soient retrouvés en Bretagne, où ils étaient appelés "cagous". Je ne sais pas s'il y a des textes en anglais ou en allemand sur ce sujet, puisque je ne sais pas comment on les nomme dans ces langues, il est donc difficile de faire une recherche.

      I can try and find out more about the subject in french and / or spanish if you wish. Just let me know which of the 3 languages you're comfortable with, although my guess is that this list is largely english speaking.

      Best regards,

      Denis GLENARD


      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Ingemar Nordgren
      To: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Saturday, June 05, 2004 2:50 AM
      Subject: [gothic-l] Re: Spanish Goths



      Hi Denis,

      I would appreciate all other information you may have about these
      agotes. I have been trying to find the Visigothic restpopulation and
      their destiny after 711. It was indeed not only the little realm up
      North in Asturia I am looking for but the rests in the former areas
      that later became French. I have had theories they influenced Cathars
      and Albingensae, or rather that their old Arian ideas later affected
      these movements.Your information they indeed stayed Arian fits
      exellent with my theories since not the whole population must have
      converted with the kings.

      Merci beaucoup pour l'ínformation de cagots. Je voudrai volontiers
      reciper plus information en ce sujet, quand je travaille actuallement
      avec le question de Goths restée et pas seulement avec le resistance
      en Asturie.

      Miquel est autres sont aussi bienvenu a m'écriver personallement en
      Allemagne. Peutêtre plusieurs de membres ne pas parle Allemagne mais
      nous savons au moin un autre.

      Best
      Ingemar


      --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "Denis Glenard" <denisglenard@y...>
      wrote:
      > Hi all,
      >
      > I'm interested in finding out more in the "agotes" (spanish name) or
      "cagots" (french name) who lived in the basque country up until the
      19th century.
      > Some scholars pretend they are the Wisigoths running away from the
      Moor invasion of Spain. Those who found refuge in the rest of the
      Northern mountain range were assimilated into the population, but it
      seems that the basque somehow ostracized them. They were originally
      forbidden from living in the villages, could only settle in the woods
      and could only work in wood related jobs. They were christian (aryans)
      but had a separate (small) door and benches in church. They were
      forbidden to marry with catholics and carried basque-sounding specific
      surnames (on the french side "Chrestiaa" is one).
      >
      > This "apartheid" lasted into the 19th century when they were finally
      allowed to integrate the rest of the community.
      >
      > Now, my question is, these people having stayed separate from the
      rest of the population for quite a long time, wouldn't specific
      "germanic" genetic markers be present in their descendants' genes ?
      Has this ever been studied ?
      >
      > And last, what's their name in english ?
      >
      > Best regards,
      >
      > Denis GLENARD
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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    • Denis Glenard
      Here is a bibliography on the subject: Histoire des races Maudites de la France et de l Espagne (Michel Francisque, 1847) Histoire del Peuples et des Etats
      Message 2 of 18 , Jun 5, 2004
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        Here is a bibliography on the subject:

        "Histoire des races Maudites de la France et de l'Espagne" (Michel Francisque, 1847)
        "Histoire del Peuples et des Etats Pyrenees " (Cenac Moncaut, 1873)
        "Las horas solitarias" (Pío Baroja, 1918)
        "El barrio maldito" (Félix Urabayen, 1925)
        "Bozate y los Agotes. Enigma histórico" (Julio Altadil, 1934)
        "Histoire des Cagots" (Osmin Ricau, 1963)
        "Documentos sobre agotes y grupos afines en Navarra" (Florencio Idoate, 1973)
        "Los agotes" (María del Carmen Aguirre Delclaux, 1977).

        Best regards,

        Denis GLENARD



        ----- Original Message -----
        From: Ingemar Nordgren
        To: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Saturday, June 05, 2004 2:50 AM
        Subject: [gothic-l] Re: Spanish Goths



        Hi Denis,

        I would appreciate all other information you may have about these
        agotes. I have been trying to find the Visigothic restpopulation and
        their destiny after 711. It was indeed not only the little realm up
        North in Asturia I am looking for but the rests in the former areas
        that later became French. I have had theories they influenced Cathars
        and Albingensae, or rather that their old Arian ideas later affected
        these movements.Your information they indeed stayed Arian fits
        exellent with my theories since not the whole population must have
        converted with the kings.

        Merci beaucoup pour l'ínformation de cagots. Je voudrai volontiers
        reciper plus information en ce sujet, quand je travaille actuallement
        avec le question de Goths restée et pas seulement avec le resistance
        en Asturie.

        Miquel est autres sont aussi bienvenu a m'écriver personallement en
        Allemagne. Peutêtre plusieurs de membres ne pas parle Allemagne mais
        nous savons au moin un autre.

        Best
        Ingemar


        --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "Denis Glenard" <denisglenard@y...>
        wrote:
        > Hi all,
        >
        > I'm interested in finding out more in the "agotes" (spanish name) or
        "cagots" (french name) who lived in the basque country up until the
        19th century.
        > Some scholars pretend they are the Wisigoths running away from the
        Moor invasion of Spain. Those who found refuge in the rest of the
        Northern mountain range were assimilated into the population, but it
        seems that the basque somehow ostracized them. They were originally
        forbidden from living in the villages, could only settle in the woods
        and could only work in wood related jobs. They were christian (aryans)
        but had a separate (small) door and benches in church. They were
        forbidden to marry with catholics and carried basque-sounding specific
        surnames (on the french side "Chrestiaa" is one).
        >
        > This "apartheid" lasted into the 19th century when they were finally
        allowed to integrate the rest of the community.
        >
        > Now, my question is, these people having stayed separate from the
        rest of the population for quite a long time, wouldn't specific
        "germanic" genetic markers be present in their descendants' genes ?
        Has this ever been studied ?
        >
        > And last, what's their name in english ?
        >
        > Best regards,
        >
        > Denis GLENARD
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • F.E.J.D. IV
        Hello Denis, I was so surprised when you brought up the Cagots. They are rarely ever mentioned. I am curious to know how you ever heard of them? -- ... I have
        Message 3 of 18 , Jun 6, 2004
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          Hello Denis,
          I was so surprised when you brought up the Cagots. They are rarely
          ever mentioned. I am curious to know how you ever heard of them? --

          --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "Denis Glenard" <denisglenard@y...>
          wrote:
          > Hi all,
          >
          > I'm interested in finding out more in the "agotes" (spanish name) or
          >"cagots" (french >name) who lived in the basque country up until the
          >19th century.

          I have some information that may be of help but I think in the end,
          the Cagots will still be an enigma.
          You might already know that the name Agote or Cagot is most likely
          derived from "Canis Gothi" (Dogs of the Goths), (see Dictionaire
          Quillet 1932 ed). Some have speculated that they were to the Arian
          Goths what "Dominicani" the "Dogs of God" were to the Catholic Church.
          Most articles I have read seem to agree that Agotes or Cagots were a
          group of Arian Visigoths that refused to convert to Catholicism under
          the orders of Reccared and moved to the mountains in order to defend
          and protect their sect and escape retribution. These Cagot enclaves or
          "Cagoterie" existed in Guipuzcoa, Navarre and the region of Jaca. I
          encourage you to see some photos of Jaca should you not be familiar
          with its environs. It is very remote and makes an excellent hideaway
          since the surrounding countryside is very rough and tumble Pyreneean
          highland somewhat geographically reminiscent of Switzerland. In France
          Cagots lived around the villages of Gascogne, Bearn and Comminges but
          a small group may have made it as far as Brittany. In Spain they were
          subjected to extreme segregation by town and church alike.
          There is an (small) out of the way museum in Navarre (don't remember
          the town) that has some good information on this group and the area
          where they resided. It can be found at:
          http://www.euskalnet.net/tik/museo.htm
          There is also an excellent study with photos (but it is in Castilian),
          titled ("Documentos Sobre Agotes y Grupos Afines en Navarra" by
          Florencio Idoate, 1973). In French there is "Histoire des Cagots, Race
          Maudite", Osmin Ricau, 1969) I recommend the former over the latter.
          These books are available at the aforementioned museum but I also
          found them at the library in Princeton and Penn.
          The fact that this group existed is well documented. The first book
          shows a photo of a late 15th century papal bull rescinding the imposed
          privations, it is dated thirteenth of May, fifteen hundred and
          fifteen. (I will try to post the photo in my web page in the not too
          distant future). The bull orders that they be well treated and calls
          for them to be given the same privileges as other men. The church then
          charges Don Juan de Santa Maria of Pamplona to execute the letter of
          the bull, though it seems that Santa Maria shirked his charge since
          documents later show that the Cagots had applied to the Cortes of
          Navarre for relief where they were (nonetheless) opposed on a variety
          of grounds allowing some of the privations to continue to as late as
          the 19th century.
          The latter privations are too numerous to mention but entailed such
          things as the wearing of distinctive costume. In some villages it
          consisted of a badge of a red colored duck's foot worn on the right
          sleeve, in other villages the same badge was worn over the left
          shoulder or on the front of their hats. They could only practice as
          carpenters, tilers and slaters, and seem to have been primarily
          employed in church construction. It is said that the roster of workers
          of the abbey Church of Saint Savin and other medieval monuments in the
          area (especially those on the way to Compostela are replete with the
          names of Cagots. It is also documented that they were not allowed to
          go near regular townsfolk and could only enter a village on certain
          days and at certain hours. They had their own entrance in church and
          could not use the communal holy water or baptismal fonts and were not
          allowed to come close to the priest and ciborium but rather received
          the communion host on the end of a long pole.

          > Some scholars pretend they are the Wisigoths running away from the
          Moor invasion of >Spain.

          It is hard to separate fact from fiction as concerns the Cagots. Some
          have thought that they were a colony of lepers and others have
          speculated that they were escaped Cathars. Alas, there is countless
          speculation as concerns their origin and the imposed privations.

          One item of note is that in 1625 Arnault De Oihenart in the "Gran
          Enciclopedia Vascaren berrargitalpena" affirms that they were
          descendants of Arrian Goths that did not convert. However, I am not
          familiar with the veracity of the latter.

          The whole affair with the Cagots seems to have been hatched in
          Hollywood does it not?. But then one asks the question why would an
          entire populace deprive a group in such a way and for so long unless
          it was some sort of religious argument or difference? –

          >Those who found refuge in the rest of the Northern mountain range
          were assimilated >into the population, but it seems that the basque
          somehow ostracized them. They were >originally forbidden from living
          in the villages, could only settle in the woods and could >only work
          in wood related jobs. They were christian (aryans) but had a separate
          (small) >door and benches in church.They were forbidden to marry with
          catholics and carried >basque-sounding specific surnames (on the
          french side "Chrestiaa" is one).
          >This "apartheid" lasted into the 19th century when they were finally
          allowed to >integrate with the rest of the community.

          It appears that there were some groups in the province of Asturias as
          well and they were also persecuted. One of the books I mentioned,
          points out that in Luz-Saint-Sauveur there were descendents of Cagots
          families that could still be identified as late as 1967, however, it
          seems that after the mid-19th Century most made a good effort to hide
          their identity seemingly with rather good success.

          >Now, my question is, these people having stayed separate from the
          rest of the >population for quite a long time, wouldn't specific
          "germanic" genetic markers be >present in their descendants' genes ?

          I hope I understand your question correctly… Simply stated (once in
          your genes always in your genes). Any marker, suggesting admixture
          from a different well-established geographical group will show up in
          the genes of the offspring and their descendants as long as those
          lineages are viable. It does not matter if that group has commingled
          with other groups, the genes will always show the record of their
          descent.
          Also it may help to point out that it is rather difficult to
          understand at first but try to keep in mind that there is no such
          thing as a "Germanic marker". Some molecular biologists et al may at
          times blurt-out something to that effect but only for the sake of
          brevity. The markers by which populations are identified tell nothing
          about culture, and/or language, they simply refer to a certain
          mutation passed on to the breeding population living in a certain
          ((geographical area)) during a period of time (a long length of time).
          Thus, the mutation is passed on through breeding to most of the
          population. One may contrast these markers against other different
          mutations passed within other breeding populations in other
          geographical areas for long periods of time. The "refugiums" (where
          people took refuge from the cold and ice) during the last ice age in
          Europe did some of the work. These refugiums were isolated
          geographical areas where a great many people lived very closely. They
          allowed the people living in each refugium (which were separated by a
          distance of about over one thousand miles each) and by a great many
          barriers, to intermingle and to become somewhat genetically
          homogenous. Thus, the non-coding areas of the "Y" chromosome or of the
          Mitochondrial DNA show the homogeneity that occurred during the time
          we were together in our particular refugium. However, please keep in
          mind that the latter mutations have nothing to do with appearance
          (phenotype) since the mutations studied are in the non-coding region
          of the genomes. As I stated, there were several Refugiums, one of them
          was in Spain. Those living there followed the retreat of the glaciers
          during the end of the last ice age and colonised the British Isles and
          the Atlantic facing areas of Europe as far north as Norway, and
          eastward into central Europe, thus it is termed the AMH or Atlantic
          Modal Haplogroup (R1b). Another refugium in the Balkans caused
          homogeneity in (that) geographical area and much like those in the
          Iberian refugium migrated northward from their refugium following the
          game kept corralled from the north by retreating ice. The later two
          groups interbred where the R1b Haplogroup met the I Haplogroup of
          Central and Northern Europe. One important item to your question is
          that individuals of the R1b and I Haplogroups interbred in the
          relative geographical area of Central and Northern Europe at varying
          percentages with the I Hpalogroup attaining a higher degree of
          saturation the farther it is from the Atlantic coast so that the
          geographical population comprising the Goths could to some degree have
          had individuals of the I as well as other Haplogroups including the
          R1b, the latter being identical to the Haplogroup found in Spain, (its
          refugium), there, at very high concentrations. Therefore, one cannot
          rely on just a few individuals. A serious study must look for
          variation in extant and deceased populations throughout the entire
          geographical area that may have originally contributed individuals to
          the population of the Goths as well as to those areas where the Goths
          may have made significant genetic contributions. Then all samples must
          be contrasted and studied. Furthermore, one must look beyond the
          established Haplogroup markers to other possible markers that may
          allow a good contrast of the population that comprised the area of the
          Goth homeland from other nearby populations and further, to those
          populations in which the Goths made genetic contributions. Only after
          broad sampling takes place will the markers from as you say "people
          having stayed separate from the rest of the population for quite a
          long time" make significant sense.
          What I wrote is intentionally very diluted and simplistic. I hope it
          may have touched on some salient points. It was very difficult for
          most students in my class to arrive at some understanding of
          ethnicity, but things get even more complicated when we insert such
          appellations as "Germanic marker" into the fray. The appellation
          Germanic is bandied about quite carelessly and at times even I have
          shared the blame. But for most individuals the whole idea needs some
          re thinking.

          >Has this ever been studied ?

          There have been several physicians that studied the Cagots. Some very
          early studies actually bled a group of Cagots in order to see whether
          they had different "humors" and salts. Others observed that there was
          no leprosy or other disease in the group. One observation in the 19th
          Century noted that the shape of the Cagot's ears were different,
          (almost round). And that their bodily temperatures were on average
          higher than the normal mean. The latter items would have
          anthropological significance but the observations would have to be
          made once again under laboratory conditions.
          As concerns molecular investigations, there has never been a study
          specifically geared to the question of the Cagots. Nonetheless a paper
          on the Genetic diversity in the Iberian Peninsula may have stumbled
          unto some unusual markers that partition a segment of the population
          in Alava and Vizcaya, the areas where Cagots lived. However, whether
          it has something to do with the Cagots is totally uncertain.

          >And last, what's their name in english ?

          I think I touched on this earlier in this post.
          Cagot is, according to (Dictionaire Quillet 1932 ed.), derived from
          Canis Gothi, meaning Dogs of the Goths.

          Cheers,
          F.E.J.D.
        • F.E.J.D. IV
          Cagots, en folkstam, som annu lefver på snorra slutninggarna af Pyreneerna afvensom I Bretagne, Poitou, Gascogne och Guienne I Frankrike samt I Baskiska
          Message 4 of 18 , Jun 6, 2004
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            Cagots, en folkstam, som annu lefver på snorra slutninggarna af
            Pyreneerna afvensom I Bretagne, Poitou, Gascogne och Guienne I
            Frankrike samt I Baskiska provinserna I Spanien. Den uppkom i 13:de
            årh. och härstammar från spetälska personer, som uteslutis ur
            samhället. Under flere århundraden behandlades cagots som parias. De
            fingo gifta sig endast med hvarandra, voro uteslunta från åtskilliga
            verksamhetsområden, måste under gudstjensten uppehålla sig i ett
            afskildt rum i kyrkan o. S. V. Oaktadt lagstiftningen och
            lagskipningen redan på 1600-talet sökte skydda dem och 1789 års
            revolution gafdem medborgerliga råtigheter, har dock fördomen mot dem
            ännu icke helt och hållet gifvit sig. Deras utseende och språk skilja
            sig icke från den omgifvande befolkningens. I Pyreneerna äro de i
            allmänhet snickare eller tunnbindare. Jfr V. De Rochas, "Les parias de
            France et d'Espagne" (1876) och en på detta arbete grundad uppsats sf
            Louis-Laude, "Les Cagots et leur congeneres" (i Revue des deux mondes
            for 1878).

            Cheers
            F.E.J.D.
          • Denis Glenard
            Hi Fernando, ... I guess my shortcut was too simplistic. What I mean is, IF there are some populations nowadays the origin of whom can be definitely traced to
            Message 5 of 18 , Jun 6, 2004
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              Hi Fernando,


              > I was so surprised when you brought up the Cagots. They are rarely
              > ever mentioned. I am curious to know how you ever heard of them? --

              Well, I'm versed in basque genealogy, therefore the Cagots are a recurrent theme, especially whenever someone asks questions about the Baztán valley in upper-Navarre. I like the mistery surrounding them, so if we can learn more about their true origins it will help clear their ill (and undeserved) reputation. Hence what follows:



              >>Now, my question is, these people having stayed separate from the
              >> rest of the >population for quite a long time, wouldn't specific
              >> "germanic" genetic markers be present in their descendants' genes ?

              >I hope I understand your question correctly. Simply stated (once in
              >your genes always in your genes).

              I guess my shortcut was too simplistic. What I mean is, IF there are some populations nowadays the origin of whom can be definitely traced to the Visigoths, would they have some specific genetic material that, if also found in the Cagots, would leave no doubt as to the Goth origin of the Cagots ?

              I take it from your answer that it's not that simple or easy...

              If you don't mind, I'll pass your comments to the basque genealogy groups where many people will be interested in learning more about the topic.

              Best regards,

              Denis GLENARD



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Ingemar Nordgren
              Bonjour Denis, Mertci beacoup pour ton aidé. Je veux volontier trouver tous qui est possible. Les langues etrangère pour mois son naturellemant l Angleterre
              Message 6 of 18 , Jun 6, 2004
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                Bonjour Denis,

                Mertci beacoup pour ton aidé. Je veux volontier trouver tous qui est
                possible. Les langues etrangère pour mois son naturellemant
                l'Angleterre et l'Allemande fluissant mais je comprend aussi Français
                resonable et jeu peu lire aussi Espanjol mais pas très bon - je
                comprend le sense. C'est a dire je suis interessé en tous les languages.

                Bonnes saluts
                Ingemar



                --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "Denis Glenard" <denisglenard@y...>
                wrote:
                > Bonjour Ingemar,
                >
                > Pas de problème pour trouver des textes sur les Cagots, il y en a
                beaucoup sur Internet, mais en français ou en espagnol.
                > Il faut savoir qu'il est possible que certains de ces cagots,
                chassés devant les armées arabo-berbères, se soient retrouvés en
                Bretagne, où ils étaient appelés "cagous". Je ne sais pas s'il y a des
                textes en anglais ou en allemand sur ce sujet, puisque je ne sais pas
                comment on les nomme dans ces langues, il est donc difficile de faire
                une recherche.
                >
                > I can try and find out more about the subject in french and / or
                spanish if you wish. Just let me know which of the 3 languages you're
                comfortable with, although my guess is that this list is largely
                english speaking.
              • Ingemar Nordgren
                Exellent! Thank you very much. Merci beacoup! Ingemar ... Francisque, 1847) ... Idoate, 1973)
                Message 7 of 18 , Jun 6, 2004
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                  Exellent! Thank you very much. Merci beacoup!

                  Ingemar




                  --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "Denis Glenard" <denisglenard@y...>
                  wrote:
                  > Here is a bibliography on the subject:
                  >
                  > "Histoire des races Maudites de la France et de l'Espagne" (Michel
                  Francisque, 1847)
                  > "Histoire del Peuples et des Etats Pyrenees " (Cenac Moncaut, 1873)
                  > "Las horas solitarias" (Pío Baroja, 1918)
                  > "El barrio maldito" (Félix Urabayen, 1925)
                  > "Bozate y los Agotes. Enigma histórico" (Julio Altadil, 1934)
                  > "Histoire des Cagots" (Osmin Ricau, 1963)
                  > "Documentos sobre agotes y grupos afines en Navarra" (Florencio
                  Idoate, 1973)
                  > "Los agotes" (María del Carmen Aguirre Delclaux, 1977).
                  >
                  > Best regards,
                  >
                  > Denis GLENARD
                • Ingemar Nordgren
                  Dear Ferdinand, Thank you very much for this contribution to the understanding of cagotes and their problem. Ingemar
                  Message 8 of 18 , Jun 6, 2004
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                    Dear Ferdinand,

                    Thank you very much for this contribution to the understanding of
                    cagotes and their problem.

                    Ingemar


                    --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "F.E.J.D. IV" <visigoth@a...> wrote:

                    >
                    > I have some information that may be of help but I think in the end,
                    > the Cagots will still be an enigma.
                  • Ingemar Nordgren
                    Fantastical Fernando! Where did you find this old Swedish text? I am impressed and it is quite amusing to read. Best Ingemar
                    Message 9 of 18 , Jun 6, 2004
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                      Fantastical Fernando!

                      Where did you find this old Swedish text? I am impressed and it is
                      quite amusing to read.

                      Best
                      Ingemar


                      --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "F.E.J.D. IV" <visigoth@a...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Cagots, en folkstam, som annu lefver på snorra slutninggarna af
                      > Pyreneerna afvensom I Bretagne, Poitou, Gascogne och Guienne I
                      > Frankrike samt I Baskiska provinserna I Spanien. Den uppkom i 13:de
                      > årh. och härstammar från spetälska personer, som uteslutis ur
                      > samhället. Under flere århundraden behandlades cagots som parias. De
                      > fingo gifta sig endast med hvarandra, voro uteslunta från åtskilliga
                      > verksamhetsområden, måste under gudstjensten uppehålla sig i ett
                      > afskildt rum i kyrkan o. S. V. Oaktadt lagstiftningen och
                      > lagskipningen redan på 1600-talet sökte skydda dem och 1789 års
                      > revolution gafdem medborgerliga råtigheter, har dock fördomen mot dem
                      > ännu icke helt och hållet gifvit sig. Deras utseende och språk skilja
                      > sig icke från den omgifvande befolkningens. I Pyreneerna äro de i
                      > allmänhet snickare eller tunnbindare. Jfr V. De Rochas, "Les parias de
                      > France et d'Espagne" (1876) och en på detta arbete grundad uppsats sf
                      > Louis-Laude, "Les Cagots et leur congeneres" (i Revue des deux mondes
                      > for 1878).
                      >
                      > Cheers
                      > F.E.J.D.
                    • F.E.J.D. IV
                      Dear Ingemar, Glad it was of some value. I believe it is either from an 1888 Swedish edition of Weners Konversations Lexicon or from the 1870´s ed. of Nordisk
                      Message 10 of 18 , Jun 6, 2004
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                        Dear Ingemar,
                        Glad it was of some value. I believe it is either from an 1888 Swedish
                        edition of Weners Konversations Lexicon or from the 1870´s ed. of
                        Nordisk Familjebok. I will try to verify this in the near future.
                        Unfortunately, I forgot to note the source on the photocopy.

                        Cheers,
                        F.E.J.D.
                        Fernando Eladio Jiménez Díaz


                        --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "Ingemar Nordgren" <ingemar@n...> wrote:
                        > Fantastical Fernando!
                        >
                        > Where did you find this old Swedish text? I am impressed and it is
                        > quite amusing to read.
                        >
                        > Best
                        > Ingemar
                        >
                        >
                        > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "F.E.J.D. IV" <visigoth@a...> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > Cagots, en folkstam, som annu lefver på snorra slutninggarna af
                        > > Pyreneerna afvensom I Bretagne, Poitou, Gascogne och Guienne I
                        > > Frankrike samt I Baskiska provinserna I Spanien. Den uppkom i 13:de
                        > > årh. och härstammar från spetälska personer, som uteslutis ur
                        > > samhället. Under flere århundraden behandlades cagots som parias. De
                        > > fingo gifta sig endast med hvarandra, voro uteslunta från åtskilliga
                        > > verksamhetsområden, måste under gudstjensten uppehålla sig i ett
                        > > afskildt rum i kyrkan o. S. V. Oaktadt lagstiftningen och
                        > > lagskipningen redan på 1600-talet sökte skydda dem och 1789 års
                        > > revolution gafdem medborgerliga råtigheter, har dock fördomen mot dem
                        > > ännu icke helt och hållet gifvit sig. Deras utseende och språk skilja
                        > > sig icke från den omgifvande befolkningens. I Pyreneerna äro de i
                        > > allmänhet snickare eller tunnbindare. Jfr V. De Rochas, "Les parias de
                        > > France et d'Espagne" (1876) och en på detta arbete grundad uppsats sf
                        > > Louis-Laude, "Les Cagots et leur congeneres" (i Revue des deux mondes
                        > > for 1878).
                        > >
                        > > Cheers
                        > > F.E.J.D.
                      • F.E.J.D. IV
                        Hello Denis, ... some populations nowadays the origin of whom can be definitely traced to the Visigoths, would they have some specific genetic material that,
                        Message 11 of 18 , Jun 7, 2004
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                          Hello Denis,


                          --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "Denis Glenard" <denisglenard@y...>
                          wrote:
                          > Hi Fernando,

                          > Denis G. wrote:
                          > I guess my shortcut was too simplistic. What I mean is, IF there are
                          some populations nowadays the origin of whom can be definitely traced
                          to the Visigoths, would they have some specific genetic material that,
                          if also found in the Cagots, would leave no doubt as to the Goth
                          origin of the Cagots ?

                          > I take it from your answer that it's not that simple or easy...
                          >

                          I think I have a better handle on your question (now).
                          Though I am a bit uncomfortable with the way the question is phrased -
                          the short, simple and sloppy answer is yes –
                          Nonetheless, the answer is really not so simple for several reasons
                          but the most important reason is because good accuracy demands a
                          foolproof well-connected study. One could make inferences by a small
                          and quick study but it would only answer a "little" question and
                          possibly cause great embarrassment during peer review since it would
                          show a lack of rigor.
                          Secondly, as concerns your strategy, you would have to substantiate
                          the connection between the "present" population you postulate, and the
                          Visigoths; thus, it would be seen as somewhat indirect (several extra
                          steps).

                          There is a more direct strategy. ---One can go directly to sources of
                          "visigothic" organic material, namely, Visigothic necropoli. There are
                          many Visigothic necropoli throughout the Iberian Peninsula. I am not
                          sure if you read through my post where I brought up my "sampling
                          strategy" but I have already collected, amplified and typed numerous
                          samples from the latter, which could be used as references by which we
                          can contrast samples from Cagot cemeteries or any other population.

                          Now, let's go back to the beginning. --------- Although the stated
                          strategy would provide some reasonably good answers (especially as
                          concerns comparisons in Spain) I would feel terribly uncomfortable
                          with the outcome since the study would not be deep enough to have the
                          kind of certainty and breadth that I am comfortable with. Simply
                          stated, the more samples in space and time the more certainty in the
                          outcome. To just sample the necropoli in Spain would be to leave out
                          too much data that could be had by sampling in Gothic necropoli in
                          Italy and Romania and the Black Sea and between the Oder and Vistula
                          and Vastergotland and Gotland. Doing the latter could answer many
                          questions including, just how homogenous the Gothic tribe was at
                          certain points in time. Even more titillating, it could provide a more
                          definitive answer as concerns the area and population from which the
                          formative Gothic tribe acquired its earliest adherents.

                          Cheers,
                          F.E.J.D.





                          > If you don't mind, I'll pass your comments to the Basque genealogy
                          groups where many people will be interested in learning more about the
                          topic.

                          >
                          > Best regards,
                          >
                          > Denis GLENARD
                          >

                          >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • ertydfh110
                          This guy is supposed to be a real Agote descendant. He is from the Batzan Vally in the Pirineos (where many agotes lived). He also played as an Agote in a
                          Message 12 of 18 , Oct 9, 2011
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                            This guy is supposed to be a real Agote descendant. He is from the Batzan Vally in the Pirineos (where many agotes lived). He also played as an Agote in a recent film.

                            Picture:
                            http://zuzeu.com/wp-content/uploads/zuzeu/03_11/4742_medium_xegone.jpg

                            Video:
                            http://www.eitb.com/es/videos/detalle/617762/el-conquistador-entrevista-xegone/
                          • ertydfh110
                            I add another curiosity. In this case it is not an Agote. Last week on Spanish television there was a program about Spanish nobility. There was a man, who is a
                            Message 13 of 18 , Oct 9, 2011
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                              I add another curiosity. In this case it is not an Agote. Last week on Spanish television there was a program about Spanish nobility. There was a man, who is a marques, that in the minute 23:50 he is showing his family genealogy and he says that he is an ancestor or Ervigio, a gothic king:

                              http://www.rtve.es/noticias/20111003/comando-actualidad-zona-noble/465800.shtml

                              From minute 20 he is on the program and on 23:50 he shows his genealogical tree.

                              It is just a curiosity.
                            • OSCAR HERRE
                               my name is derived from the gothic namesakes......i have descendants from noth central sspain and up to the northeastern part at the border of
                              Message 14 of 18 , Oct 9, 2011
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                                 my name is derived from the gothic namesakes......i have descendants from noth central sspain and up to the northeastern part at the border of france.......back to the 16th century,,,,,,

                                --- On Sun, 10/9/11, ertydfh110 <ertydfh110@...> wrote:


                                From: ertydfh110 <ertydfh110@...>
                                Subject: [gothic-l] Re: Spanish Goths
                                To: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com
                                Date: Sunday, October 9, 2011, 5:41 PM



                                 



                                This guy is supposed to be a real Agote descendant. He is from the Batzan Vally in the Pirineos (where many agotes lived). He also played as an Agote in a recent film.

                                Picture:
                                http://zuzeu.com/wp-content/uploads/zuzeu/03_11/4742_medium_xegone.jpg

                                Video:
                                http://www.eitb.com/es/videos/detalle/617762/el-conquistador-entrevista-xegone/








                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • OSCAR HERRE
                                also read when i was in college thru historical records that the goth were  say like the u. s. marines when they collaborated to turn back the muslim
                                Message 15 of 18 , Oct 9, 2011
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                                  also read when i was in college thru historical records that the goth were  say like the u. s. marines when they collaborated to turn back the muslim invasion......

                                  --- On Sun, 10/9/11, ertydfh110 <ertydfh110@...> wrote:


                                  From: ertydfh110 <ertydfh110@...>
                                  Subject: [gothic-l] Re: Spanish Goths
                                  To: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com
                                  Date: Sunday, October 9, 2011, 5:57 PM



                                   



                                  I add another curiosity. In this case it is not an Agote. Last week on Spanish television there was a program about Spanish nobility. There was a man, who is a marques, that in the minute 23:50 he is showing his family genealogy and he says that he is an ancestor or Ervigio, a gothic king:

                                  http://www.rtve.es/noticias/20111003/comando-actualidad-zona-noble/465800.shtml

                                  From minute 20 he is on the program and on 23:50 he shows his genealogical tree.

                                  It is just a curiosity.








                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • OSCAR HERRE
                                  the goths changed all western european history thru their trimphs and tribulations and yet they have only chosen a modest civilized world with peace and
                                  Message 16 of 18 , Oct 9, 2011
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                                    the goths changed all western european history thru their trimphs and tribulations and yet they have only chosen a modest civilized world with peace and prosperity....

                                    --- On Sun, 10/9/11, ertydfh110 <ertydfh110@...> wrote:


                                    From: ertydfh110 <ertydfh110@...>
                                    Subject: [gothic-l] Re: Spanish Goths
                                    To: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com
                                    Date: Sunday, October 9, 2011, 5:57 PM



                                     



                                    I add another curiosity. In this case it is not an Agote. Last week on Spanish television there was a program about Spanish nobility. There was a man, who is a marques, that in the minute 23:50 he is showing his family genealogy and he says that he is an ancestor or Ervigio, a gothic king:

                                    http://www.rtve.es/noticias/20111003/comando-actualidad-zona-noble/465800.shtml

                                    From minute 20 he is on the program and on 23:50 he shows his genealogical tree.

                                    It is just a curiosity.








                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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