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Spanish Goths

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  • Denis Glenard
    Hi all, I m interested in finding out more in the agotes (spanish name) or cagots (french name) who lived in the basque country up until the 19th century.
    Message 1 of 18 , Jun 4, 2004
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      Hi all,

      I'm interested in finding out more in the "agotes" (spanish name) or "cagots" (french name) who lived in the basque country up until the 19th century.
      Some scholars pretend they are the Wisigoths running away from the Moor invasion of Spain. Those who found refuge in the rest of the Northern mountain range were assimilated into the population, but it seems that the basque somehow ostracized them. They were originally forbidden from living in the villages, could only settle in the woods and could only work in wood related jobs. They were christian (aryans) but had a separate (small) door and benches in church. They were forbidden to marry with catholics and carried basque-sounding specific surnames (on the french side "Chrestiaa" is one).

      This "apartheid" lasted into the 19th century when they were finally allowed to integrate the rest of the community.

      Now, my question is, these people having stayed separate from the rest of the population for quite a long time, wouldn't specific "germanic" genetic markers be present in their descendants' genes ? Has this ever been studied ?

      And last, what's their name in english ?

      Best regards,

      Denis GLENARD


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Ingemar Nordgren
      Hi Denis, I would appreciate all other information you may have about these agotes. I have been trying to find the Visigothic restpopulation and their destiny
      Message 2 of 18 , Jun 4, 2004
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        Hi Denis,

        I would appreciate all other information you may have about these
        agotes. I have been trying to find the Visigothic restpopulation and
        their destiny after 711. It was indeed not only the little realm up
        North in Asturia I am looking for but the rests in the former areas
        that later became French. I have had theories they influenced Cathars
        and Albingensae, or rather that their old Arian ideas later affected
        these movements.Your information they indeed stayed Arian fits
        exellent with my theories since not the whole population must have
        converted with the kings.

        Merci beaucoup pour l'ínformation de cagots. Je voudrai volontiers
        reciper plus information en ce sujet, quand je travaille actuallement
        avec le question de Goths restée et pas seulement avec le resistance
        en Asturie.

        Miquel est autres sont aussi bienvenu a m'écriver personallement en
        Allemagne. Peutêtre plusieurs de membres ne pas parle Allemagne mais
        nous savons au moin un autre.

        Best
        Ingemar


        --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "Denis Glenard" <denisglenard@y...>
        wrote:
        > Hi all,
        >
        > I'm interested in finding out more in the "agotes" (spanish name) or
        "cagots" (french name) who lived in the basque country up until the
        19th century.
        > Some scholars pretend they are the Wisigoths running away from the
        Moor invasion of Spain. Those who found refuge in the rest of the
        Northern mountain range were assimilated into the population, but it
        seems that the basque somehow ostracized them. They were originally
        forbidden from living in the villages, could only settle in the woods
        and could only work in wood related jobs. They were christian (aryans)
        but had a separate (small) door and benches in church. They were
        forbidden to marry with catholics and carried basque-sounding specific
        surnames (on the french side "Chrestiaa" is one).
        >
        > This "apartheid" lasted into the 19th century when they were finally
        allowed to integrate the rest of the community.
        >
        > Now, my question is, these people having stayed separate from the
        rest of the population for quite a long time, wouldn't specific
        "germanic" genetic markers be present in their descendants' genes ?
        Has this ever been studied ?
        >
        > And last, what's their name in english ?
        >
        > Best regards,
        >
        > Denis GLENARD
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Denis Glenard
        Bonjour Ingemar, Pas de problème pour trouver des textes sur les Cagots, il y en a beaucoup sur Internet, mais en français ou en espagnol. Il faut savoir
        Message 3 of 18 , Jun 5, 2004
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          Bonjour Ingemar,

          Pas de problème pour trouver des textes sur les Cagots, il y en a beaucoup sur Internet, mais en français ou en espagnol.
          Il faut savoir qu'il est possible que certains de ces cagots, chassés devant les armées arabo-berbères, se soient retrouvés en Bretagne, où ils étaient appelés "cagous". Je ne sais pas s'il y a des textes en anglais ou en allemand sur ce sujet, puisque je ne sais pas comment on les nomme dans ces langues, il est donc difficile de faire une recherche.

          I can try and find out more about the subject in french and / or spanish if you wish. Just let me know which of the 3 languages you're comfortable with, although my guess is that this list is largely english speaking.

          Best regards,

          Denis GLENARD


          ----- Original Message -----
          From: Ingemar Nordgren
          To: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Saturday, June 05, 2004 2:50 AM
          Subject: [gothic-l] Re: Spanish Goths



          Hi Denis,

          I would appreciate all other information you may have about these
          agotes. I have been trying to find the Visigothic restpopulation and
          their destiny after 711. It was indeed not only the little realm up
          North in Asturia I am looking for but the rests in the former areas
          that later became French. I have had theories they influenced Cathars
          and Albingensae, or rather that their old Arian ideas later affected
          these movements.Your information they indeed stayed Arian fits
          exellent with my theories since not the whole population must have
          converted with the kings.

          Merci beaucoup pour l'ínformation de cagots. Je voudrai volontiers
          reciper plus information en ce sujet, quand je travaille actuallement
          avec le question de Goths restée et pas seulement avec le resistance
          en Asturie.

          Miquel est autres sont aussi bienvenu a m'écriver personallement en
          Allemagne. Peutêtre plusieurs de membres ne pas parle Allemagne mais
          nous savons au moin un autre.

          Best
          Ingemar


          --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "Denis Glenard" <denisglenard@y...>
          wrote:
          > Hi all,
          >
          > I'm interested in finding out more in the "agotes" (spanish name) or
          "cagots" (french name) who lived in the basque country up until the
          19th century.
          > Some scholars pretend they are the Wisigoths running away from the
          Moor invasion of Spain. Those who found refuge in the rest of the
          Northern mountain range were assimilated into the population, but it
          seems that the basque somehow ostracized them. They were originally
          forbidden from living in the villages, could only settle in the woods
          and could only work in wood related jobs. They were christian (aryans)
          but had a separate (small) door and benches in church. They were
          forbidden to marry with catholics and carried basque-sounding specific
          surnames (on the french side "Chrestiaa" is one).
          >
          > This "apartheid" lasted into the 19th century when they were finally
          allowed to integrate the rest of the community.
          >
          > Now, my question is, these people having stayed separate from the
          rest of the population for quite a long time, wouldn't specific
          "germanic" genetic markers be present in their descendants' genes ?
          Has this ever been studied ?
          >
          > And last, what's their name in english ?
          >
          > Best regards,
          >
          > Denis GLENARD
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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        • Denis Glenard
          Here is a bibliography on the subject: Histoire des races Maudites de la France et de l Espagne (Michel Francisque, 1847) Histoire del Peuples et des Etats
          Message 4 of 18 , Jun 5, 2004
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            Here is a bibliography on the subject:

            "Histoire des races Maudites de la France et de l'Espagne" (Michel Francisque, 1847)
            "Histoire del Peuples et des Etats Pyrenees " (Cenac Moncaut, 1873)
            "Las horas solitarias" (Pío Baroja, 1918)
            "El barrio maldito" (Félix Urabayen, 1925)
            "Bozate y los Agotes. Enigma histórico" (Julio Altadil, 1934)
            "Histoire des Cagots" (Osmin Ricau, 1963)
            "Documentos sobre agotes y grupos afines en Navarra" (Florencio Idoate, 1973)
            "Los agotes" (María del Carmen Aguirre Delclaux, 1977).

            Best regards,

            Denis GLENARD



            ----- Original Message -----
            From: Ingemar Nordgren
            To: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Saturday, June 05, 2004 2:50 AM
            Subject: [gothic-l] Re: Spanish Goths



            Hi Denis,

            I would appreciate all other information you may have about these
            agotes. I have been trying to find the Visigothic restpopulation and
            their destiny after 711. It was indeed not only the little realm up
            North in Asturia I am looking for but the rests in the former areas
            that later became French. I have had theories they influenced Cathars
            and Albingensae, or rather that their old Arian ideas later affected
            these movements.Your information they indeed stayed Arian fits
            exellent with my theories since not the whole population must have
            converted with the kings.

            Merci beaucoup pour l'ínformation de cagots. Je voudrai volontiers
            reciper plus information en ce sujet, quand je travaille actuallement
            avec le question de Goths restée et pas seulement avec le resistance
            en Asturie.

            Miquel est autres sont aussi bienvenu a m'écriver personallement en
            Allemagne. Peutêtre plusieurs de membres ne pas parle Allemagne mais
            nous savons au moin un autre.

            Best
            Ingemar


            --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "Denis Glenard" <denisglenard@y...>
            wrote:
            > Hi all,
            >
            > I'm interested in finding out more in the "agotes" (spanish name) or
            "cagots" (french name) who lived in the basque country up until the
            19th century.
            > Some scholars pretend they are the Wisigoths running away from the
            Moor invasion of Spain. Those who found refuge in the rest of the
            Northern mountain range were assimilated into the population, but it
            seems that the basque somehow ostracized them. They were originally
            forbidden from living in the villages, could only settle in the woods
            and could only work in wood related jobs. They were christian (aryans)
            but had a separate (small) door and benches in church. They were
            forbidden to marry with catholics and carried basque-sounding specific
            surnames (on the french side "Chrestiaa" is one).
            >
            > This "apartheid" lasted into the 19th century when they were finally
            allowed to integrate the rest of the community.
            >
            > Now, my question is, these people having stayed separate from the
            rest of the population for quite a long time, wouldn't specific
            "germanic" genetic markers be present in their descendants' genes ?
            Has this ever been studied ?
            >
            > And last, what's their name in english ?
            >
            > Best regards,
            >
            > Denis GLENARD
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • F.E.J.D. IV
            Hello Denis, I was so surprised when you brought up the Cagots. They are rarely ever mentioned. I am curious to know how you ever heard of them? -- ... I have
            Message 5 of 18 , Jun 6, 2004
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              Hello Denis,
              I was so surprised when you brought up the Cagots. They are rarely
              ever mentioned. I am curious to know how you ever heard of them? --

              --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "Denis Glenard" <denisglenard@y...>
              wrote:
              > Hi all,
              >
              > I'm interested in finding out more in the "agotes" (spanish name) or
              >"cagots" (french >name) who lived in the basque country up until the
              >19th century.

              I have some information that may be of help but I think in the end,
              the Cagots will still be an enigma.
              You might already know that the name Agote or Cagot is most likely
              derived from "Canis Gothi" (Dogs of the Goths), (see Dictionaire
              Quillet 1932 ed). Some have speculated that they were to the Arian
              Goths what "Dominicani" the "Dogs of God" were to the Catholic Church.
              Most articles I have read seem to agree that Agotes or Cagots were a
              group of Arian Visigoths that refused to convert to Catholicism under
              the orders of Reccared and moved to the mountains in order to defend
              and protect their sect and escape retribution. These Cagot enclaves or
              "Cagoterie" existed in Guipuzcoa, Navarre and the region of Jaca. I
              encourage you to see some photos of Jaca should you not be familiar
              with its environs. It is very remote and makes an excellent hideaway
              since the surrounding countryside is very rough and tumble Pyreneean
              highland somewhat geographically reminiscent of Switzerland. In France
              Cagots lived around the villages of Gascogne, Bearn and Comminges but
              a small group may have made it as far as Brittany. In Spain they were
              subjected to extreme segregation by town and church alike.
              There is an (small) out of the way museum in Navarre (don't remember
              the town) that has some good information on this group and the area
              where they resided. It can be found at:
              http://www.euskalnet.net/tik/museo.htm
              There is also an excellent study with photos (but it is in Castilian),
              titled ("Documentos Sobre Agotes y Grupos Afines en Navarra" by
              Florencio Idoate, 1973). In French there is "Histoire des Cagots, Race
              Maudite", Osmin Ricau, 1969) I recommend the former over the latter.
              These books are available at the aforementioned museum but I also
              found them at the library in Princeton and Penn.
              The fact that this group existed is well documented. The first book
              shows a photo of a late 15th century papal bull rescinding the imposed
              privations, it is dated thirteenth of May, fifteen hundred and
              fifteen. (I will try to post the photo in my web page in the not too
              distant future). The bull orders that they be well treated and calls
              for them to be given the same privileges as other men. The church then
              charges Don Juan de Santa Maria of Pamplona to execute the letter of
              the bull, though it seems that Santa Maria shirked his charge since
              documents later show that the Cagots had applied to the Cortes of
              Navarre for relief where they were (nonetheless) opposed on a variety
              of grounds allowing some of the privations to continue to as late as
              the 19th century.
              The latter privations are too numerous to mention but entailed such
              things as the wearing of distinctive costume. In some villages it
              consisted of a badge of a red colored duck's foot worn on the right
              sleeve, in other villages the same badge was worn over the left
              shoulder or on the front of their hats. They could only practice as
              carpenters, tilers and slaters, and seem to have been primarily
              employed in church construction. It is said that the roster of workers
              of the abbey Church of Saint Savin and other medieval monuments in the
              area (especially those on the way to Compostela are replete with the
              names of Cagots. It is also documented that they were not allowed to
              go near regular townsfolk and could only enter a village on certain
              days and at certain hours. They had their own entrance in church and
              could not use the communal holy water or baptismal fonts and were not
              allowed to come close to the priest and ciborium but rather received
              the communion host on the end of a long pole.

              > Some scholars pretend they are the Wisigoths running away from the
              Moor invasion of >Spain.

              It is hard to separate fact from fiction as concerns the Cagots. Some
              have thought that they were a colony of lepers and others have
              speculated that they were escaped Cathars. Alas, there is countless
              speculation as concerns their origin and the imposed privations.

              One item of note is that in 1625 Arnault De Oihenart in the "Gran
              Enciclopedia Vascaren berrargitalpena" affirms that they were
              descendants of Arrian Goths that did not convert. However, I am not
              familiar with the veracity of the latter.

              The whole affair with the Cagots seems to have been hatched in
              Hollywood does it not?. But then one asks the question why would an
              entire populace deprive a group in such a way and for so long unless
              it was some sort of religious argument or difference? –

              >Those who found refuge in the rest of the Northern mountain range
              were assimilated >into the population, but it seems that the basque
              somehow ostracized them. They were >originally forbidden from living
              in the villages, could only settle in the woods and could >only work
              in wood related jobs. They were christian (aryans) but had a separate
              (small) >door and benches in church.They were forbidden to marry with
              catholics and carried >basque-sounding specific surnames (on the
              french side "Chrestiaa" is one).
              >This "apartheid" lasted into the 19th century when they were finally
              allowed to >integrate with the rest of the community.

              It appears that there were some groups in the province of Asturias as
              well and they were also persecuted. One of the books I mentioned,
              points out that in Luz-Saint-Sauveur there were descendents of Cagots
              families that could still be identified as late as 1967, however, it
              seems that after the mid-19th Century most made a good effort to hide
              their identity seemingly with rather good success.

              >Now, my question is, these people having stayed separate from the
              rest of the >population for quite a long time, wouldn't specific
              "germanic" genetic markers be >present in their descendants' genes ?

              I hope I understand your question correctly… Simply stated (once in
              your genes always in your genes). Any marker, suggesting admixture
              from a different well-established geographical group will show up in
              the genes of the offspring and their descendants as long as those
              lineages are viable. It does not matter if that group has commingled
              with other groups, the genes will always show the record of their
              descent.
              Also it may help to point out that it is rather difficult to
              understand at first but try to keep in mind that there is no such
              thing as a "Germanic marker". Some molecular biologists et al may at
              times blurt-out something to that effect but only for the sake of
              brevity. The markers by which populations are identified tell nothing
              about culture, and/or language, they simply refer to a certain
              mutation passed on to the breeding population living in a certain
              ((geographical area)) during a period of time (a long length of time).
              Thus, the mutation is passed on through breeding to most of the
              population. One may contrast these markers against other different
              mutations passed within other breeding populations in other
              geographical areas for long periods of time. The "refugiums" (where
              people took refuge from the cold and ice) during the last ice age in
              Europe did some of the work. These refugiums were isolated
              geographical areas where a great many people lived very closely. They
              allowed the people living in each refugium (which were separated by a
              distance of about over one thousand miles each) and by a great many
              barriers, to intermingle and to become somewhat genetically
              homogenous. Thus, the non-coding areas of the "Y" chromosome or of the
              Mitochondrial DNA show the homogeneity that occurred during the time
              we were together in our particular refugium. However, please keep in
              mind that the latter mutations have nothing to do with appearance
              (phenotype) since the mutations studied are in the non-coding region
              of the genomes. As I stated, there were several Refugiums, one of them
              was in Spain. Those living there followed the retreat of the glaciers
              during the end of the last ice age and colonised the British Isles and
              the Atlantic facing areas of Europe as far north as Norway, and
              eastward into central Europe, thus it is termed the AMH or Atlantic
              Modal Haplogroup (R1b). Another refugium in the Balkans caused
              homogeneity in (that) geographical area and much like those in the
              Iberian refugium migrated northward from their refugium following the
              game kept corralled from the north by retreating ice. The later two
              groups interbred where the R1b Haplogroup met the I Haplogroup of
              Central and Northern Europe. One important item to your question is
              that individuals of the R1b and I Haplogroups interbred in the
              relative geographical area of Central and Northern Europe at varying
              percentages with the I Hpalogroup attaining a higher degree of
              saturation the farther it is from the Atlantic coast so that the
              geographical population comprising the Goths could to some degree have
              had individuals of the I as well as other Haplogroups including the
              R1b, the latter being identical to the Haplogroup found in Spain, (its
              refugium), there, at very high concentrations. Therefore, one cannot
              rely on just a few individuals. A serious study must look for
              variation in extant and deceased populations throughout the entire
              geographical area that may have originally contributed individuals to
              the population of the Goths as well as to those areas where the Goths
              may have made significant genetic contributions. Then all samples must
              be contrasted and studied. Furthermore, one must look beyond the
              established Haplogroup markers to other possible markers that may
              allow a good contrast of the population that comprised the area of the
              Goth homeland from other nearby populations and further, to those
              populations in which the Goths made genetic contributions. Only after
              broad sampling takes place will the markers from as you say "people
              having stayed separate from the rest of the population for quite a
              long time" make significant sense.
              What I wrote is intentionally very diluted and simplistic. I hope it
              may have touched on some salient points. It was very difficult for
              most students in my class to arrive at some understanding of
              ethnicity, but things get even more complicated when we insert such
              appellations as "Germanic marker" into the fray. The appellation
              Germanic is bandied about quite carelessly and at times even I have
              shared the blame. But for most individuals the whole idea needs some
              re thinking.

              >Has this ever been studied ?

              There have been several physicians that studied the Cagots. Some very
              early studies actually bled a group of Cagots in order to see whether
              they had different "humors" and salts. Others observed that there was
              no leprosy or other disease in the group. One observation in the 19th
              Century noted that the shape of the Cagot's ears were different,
              (almost round). And that their bodily temperatures were on average
              higher than the normal mean. The latter items would have
              anthropological significance but the observations would have to be
              made once again under laboratory conditions.
              As concerns molecular investigations, there has never been a study
              specifically geared to the question of the Cagots. Nonetheless a paper
              on the Genetic diversity in the Iberian Peninsula may have stumbled
              unto some unusual markers that partition a segment of the population
              in Alava and Vizcaya, the areas where Cagots lived. However, whether
              it has something to do with the Cagots is totally uncertain.

              >And last, what's their name in english ?

              I think I touched on this earlier in this post.
              Cagot is, according to (Dictionaire Quillet 1932 ed.), derived from
              Canis Gothi, meaning Dogs of the Goths.

              Cheers,
              F.E.J.D.
            • F.E.J.D. IV
              Cagots, en folkstam, som annu lefver på snorra slutninggarna af Pyreneerna afvensom I Bretagne, Poitou, Gascogne och Guienne I Frankrike samt I Baskiska
              Message 6 of 18 , Jun 6, 2004
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                Cagots, en folkstam, som annu lefver på snorra slutninggarna af
                Pyreneerna afvensom I Bretagne, Poitou, Gascogne och Guienne I
                Frankrike samt I Baskiska provinserna I Spanien. Den uppkom i 13:de
                årh. och härstammar från spetälska personer, som uteslutis ur
                samhället. Under flere århundraden behandlades cagots som parias. De
                fingo gifta sig endast med hvarandra, voro uteslunta från åtskilliga
                verksamhetsområden, måste under gudstjensten uppehålla sig i ett
                afskildt rum i kyrkan o. S. V. Oaktadt lagstiftningen och
                lagskipningen redan på 1600-talet sökte skydda dem och 1789 års
                revolution gafdem medborgerliga råtigheter, har dock fördomen mot dem
                ännu icke helt och hållet gifvit sig. Deras utseende och språk skilja
                sig icke från den omgifvande befolkningens. I Pyreneerna äro de i
                allmänhet snickare eller tunnbindare. Jfr V. De Rochas, "Les parias de
                France et d'Espagne" (1876) och en på detta arbete grundad uppsats sf
                Louis-Laude, "Les Cagots et leur congeneres" (i Revue des deux mondes
                for 1878).

                Cheers
                F.E.J.D.
              • Denis Glenard
                Hi Fernando, ... I guess my shortcut was too simplistic. What I mean is, IF there are some populations nowadays the origin of whom can be definitely traced to
                Message 7 of 18 , Jun 6, 2004
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                  Hi Fernando,


                  > I was so surprised when you brought up the Cagots. They are rarely
                  > ever mentioned. I am curious to know how you ever heard of them? --

                  Well, I'm versed in basque genealogy, therefore the Cagots are a recurrent theme, especially whenever someone asks questions about the Baztán valley in upper-Navarre. I like the mistery surrounding them, so if we can learn more about their true origins it will help clear their ill (and undeserved) reputation. Hence what follows:



                  >>Now, my question is, these people having stayed separate from the
                  >> rest of the >population for quite a long time, wouldn't specific
                  >> "germanic" genetic markers be present in their descendants' genes ?

                  >I hope I understand your question correctly. Simply stated (once in
                  >your genes always in your genes).

                  I guess my shortcut was too simplistic. What I mean is, IF there are some populations nowadays the origin of whom can be definitely traced to the Visigoths, would they have some specific genetic material that, if also found in the Cagots, would leave no doubt as to the Goth origin of the Cagots ?

                  I take it from your answer that it's not that simple or easy...

                  If you don't mind, I'll pass your comments to the basque genealogy groups where many people will be interested in learning more about the topic.

                  Best regards,

                  Denis GLENARD



                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Ingemar Nordgren
                  Bonjour Denis, Mertci beacoup pour ton aidé. Je veux volontier trouver tous qui est possible. Les langues etrangère pour mois son naturellemant l Angleterre
                  Message 8 of 18 , Jun 6, 2004
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                    Bonjour Denis,

                    Mertci beacoup pour ton aidé. Je veux volontier trouver tous qui est
                    possible. Les langues etrangère pour mois son naturellemant
                    l'Angleterre et l'Allemande fluissant mais je comprend aussi Français
                    resonable et jeu peu lire aussi Espanjol mais pas très bon - je
                    comprend le sense. C'est a dire je suis interessé en tous les languages.

                    Bonnes saluts
                    Ingemar



                    --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "Denis Glenard" <denisglenard@y...>
                    wrote:
                    > Bonjour Ingemar,
                    >
                    > Pas de problème pour trouver des textes sur les Cagots, il y en a
                    beaucoup sur Internet, mais en français ou en espagnol.
                    > Il faut savoir qu'il est possible que certains de ces cagots,
                    chassés devant les armées arabo-berbères, se soient retrouvés en
                    Bretagne, où ils étaient appelés "cagous". Je ne sais pas s'il y a des
                    textes en anglais ou en allemand sur ce sujet, puisque je ne sais pas
                    comment on les nomme dans ces langues, il est donc difficile de faire
                    une recherche.
                    >
                    > I can try and find out more about the subject in french and / or
                    spanish if you wish. Just let me know which of the 3 languages you're
                    comfortable with, although my guess is that this list is largely
                    english speaking.
                  • Ingemar Nordgren
                    Exellent! Thank you very much. Merci beacoup! Ingemar ... Francisque, 1847) ... Idoate, 1973)
                    Message 9 of 18 , Jun 6, 2004
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                      Exellent! Thank you very much. Merci beacoup!

                      Ingemar




                      --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "Denis Glenard" <denisglenard@y...>
                      wrote:
                      > Here is a bibliography on the subject:
                      >
                      > "Histoire des races Maudites de la France et de l'Espagne" (Michel
                      Francisque, 1847)
                      > "Histoire del Peuples et des Etats Pyrenees " (Cenac Moncaut, 1873)
                      > "Las horas solitarias" (Pío Baroja, 1918)
                      > "El barrio maldito" (Félix Urabayen, 1925)
                      > "Bozate y los Agotes. Enigma histórico" (Julio Altadil, 1934)
                      > "Histoire des Cagots" (Osmin Ricau, 1963)
                      > "Documentos sobre agotes y grupos afines en Navarra" (Florencio
                      Idoate, 1973)
                      > "Los agotes" (María del Carmen Aguirre Delclaux, 1977).
                      >
                      > Best regards,
                      >
                      > Denis GLENARD
                    • Ingemar Nordgren
                      Dear Ferdinand, Thank you very much for this contribution to the understanding of cagotes and their problem. Ingemar
                      Message 10 of 18 , Jun 6, 2004
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                        Dear Ferdinand,

                        Thank you very much for this contribution to the understanding of
                        cagotes and their problem.

                        Ingemar


                        --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "F.E.J.D. IV" <visigoth@a...> wrote:

                        >
                        > I have some information that may be of help but I think in the end,
                        > the Cagots will still be an enigma.
                      • Ingemar Nordgren
                        Fantastical Fernando! Where did you find this old Swedish text? I am impressed and it is quite amusing to read. Best Ingemar
                        Message 11 of 18 , Jun 6, 2004
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                          Fantastical Fernando!

                          Where did you find this old Swedish text? I am impressed and it is
                          quite amusing to read.

                          Best
                          Ingemar


                          --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "F.E.J.D. IV" <visigoth@a...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Cagots, en folkstam, som annu lefver på snorra slutninggarna af
                          > Pyreneerna afvensom I Bretagne, Poitou, Gascogne och Guienne I
                          > Frankrike samt I Baskiska provinserna I Spanien. Den uppkom i 13:de
                          > årh. och härstammar från spetälska personer, som uteslutis ur
                          > samhället. Under flere århundraden behandlades cagots som parias. De
                          > fingo gifta sig endast med hvarandra, voro uteslunta från åtskilliga
                          > verksamhetsområden, måste under gudstjensten uppehålla sig i ett
                          > afskildt rum i kyrkan o. S. V. Oaktadt lagstiftningen och
                          > lagskipningen redan på 1600-talet sökte skydda dem och 1789 års
                          > revolution gafdem medborgerliga råtigheter, har dock fördomen mot dem
                          > ännu icke helt och hållet gifvit sig. Deras utseende och språk skilja
                          > sig icke från den omgifvande befolkningens. I Pyreneerna äro de i
                          > allmänhet snickare eller tunnbindare. Jfr V. De Rochas, "Les parias de
                          > France et d'Espagne" (1876) och en på detta arbete grundad uppsats sf
                          > Louis-Laude, "Les Cagots et leur congeneres" (i Revue des deux mondes
                          > for 1878).
                          >
                          > Cheers
                          > F.E.J.D.
                        • F.E.J.D. IV
                          Dear Ingemar, Glad it was of some value. I believe it is either from an 1888 Swedish edition of Weners Konversations Lexicon or from the 1870´s ed. of Nordisk
                          Message 12 of 18 , Jun 6, 2004
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                            Dear Ingemar,
                            Glad it was of some value. I believe it is either from an 1888 Swedish
                            edition of Weners Konversations Lexicon or from the 1870´s ed. of
                            Nordisk Familjebok. I will try to verify this in the near future.
                            Unfortunately, I forgot to note the source on the photocopy.

                            Cheers,
                            F.E.J.D.
                            Fernando Eladio Jiménez Díaz


                            --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "Ingemar Nordgren" <ingemar@n...> wrote:
                            > Fantastical Fernando!
                            >
                            > Where did you find this old Swedish text? I am impressed and it is
                            > quite amusing to read.
                            >
                            > Best
                            > Ingemar
                            >
                            >
                            > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "F.E.J.D. IV" <visigoth@a...> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > Cagots, en folkstam, som annu lefver på snorra slutninggarna af
                            > > Pyreneerna afvensom I Bretagne, Poitou, Gascogne och Guienne I
                            > > Frankrike samt I Baskiska provinserna I Spanien. Den uppkom i 13:de
                            > > årh. och härstammar från spetälska personer, som uteslutis ur
                            > > samhället. Under flere århundraden behandlades cagots som parias. De
                            > > fingo gifta sig endast med hvarandra, voro uteslunta från åtskilliga
                            > > verksamhetsområden, måste under gudstjensten uppehålla sig i ett
                            > > afskildt rum i kyrkan o. S. V. Oaktadt lagstiftningen och
                            > > lagskipningen redan på 1600-talet sökte skydda dem och 1789 års
                            > > revolution gafdem medborgerliga råtigheter, har dock fördomen mot dem
                            > > ännu icke helt och hållet gifvit sig. Deras utseende och språk skilja
                            > > sig icke från den omgifvande befolkningens. I Pyreneerna äro de i
                            > > allmänhet snickare eller tunnbindare. Jfr V. De Rochas, "Les parias de
                            > > France et d'Espagne" (1876) och en på detta arbete grundad uppsats sf
                            > > Louis-Laude, "Les Cagots et leur congeneres" (i Revue des deux mondes
                            > > for 1878).
                            > >
                            > > Cheers
                            > > F.E.J.D.
                          • F.E.J.D. IV
                            Hello Denis, ... some populations nowadays the origin of whom can be definitely traced to the Visigoths, would they have some specific genetic material that,
                            Message 13 of 18 , Jun 7, 2004
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                              Hello Denis,


                              --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "Denis Glenard" <denisglenard@y...>
                              wrote:
                              > Hi Fernando,

                              > Denis G. wrote:
                              > I guess my shortcut was too simplistic. What I mean is, IF there are
                              some populations nowadays the origin of whom can be definitely traced
                              to the Visigoths, would they have some specific genetic material that,
                              if also found in the Cagots, would leave no doubt as to the Goth
                              origin of the Cagots ?

                              > I take it from your answer that it's not that simple or easy...
                              >

                              I think I have a better handle on your question (now).
                              Though I am a bit uncomfortable with the way the question is phrased -
                              the short, simple and sloppy answer is yes –
                              Nonetheless, the answer is really not so simple for several reasons
                              but the most important reason is because good accuracy demands a
                              foolproof well-connected study. One could make inferences by a small
                              and quick study but it would only answer a "little" question and
                              possibly cause great embarrassment during peer review since it would
                              show a lack of rigor.
                              Secondly, as concerns your strategy, you would have to substantiate
                              the connection between the "present" population you postulate, and the
                              Visigoths; thus, it would be seen as somewhat indirect (several extra
                              steps).

                              There is a more direct strategy. ---One can go directly to sources of
                              "visigothic" organic material, namely, Visigothic necropoli. There are
                              many Visigothic necropoli throughout the Iberian Peninsula. I am not
                              sure if you read through my post where I brought up my "sampling
                              strategy" but I have already collected, amplified and typed numerous
                              samples from the latter, which could be used as references by which we
                              can contrast samples from Cagot cemeteries or any other population.

                              Now, let's go back to the beginning. --------- Although the stated
                              strategy would provide some reasonably good answers (especially as
                              concerns comparisons in Spain) I would feel terribly uncomfortable
                              with the outcome since the study would not be deep enough to have the
                              kind of certainty and breadth that I am comfortable with. Simply
                              stated, the more samples in space and time the more certainty in the
                              outcome. To just sample the necropoli in Spain would be to leave out
                              too much data that could be had by sampling in Gothic necropoli in
                              Italy and Romania and the Black Sea and between the Oder and Vistula
                              and Vastergotland and Gotland. Doing the latter could answer many
                              questions including, just how homogenous the Gothic tribe was at
                              certain points in time. Even more titillating, it could provide a more
                              definitive answer as concerns the area and population from which the
                              formative Gothic tribe acquired its earliest adherents.

                              Cheers,
                              F.E.J.D.





                              > If you don't mind, I'll pass your comments to the Basque genealogy
                              groups where many people will be interested in learning more about the
                              topic.

                              >
                              > Best regards,
                              >
                              > Denis GLENARD
                              >

                              >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • ertydfh110
                              This guy is supposed to be a real Agote descendant. He is from the Batzan Vally in the Pirineos (where many agotes lived). He also played as an Agote in a
                              Message 14 of 18 , Oct 9, 2011
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                                This guy is supposed to be a real Agote descendant. He is from the Batzan Vally in the Pirineos (where many agotes lived). He also played as an Agote in a recent film.

                                Picture:
                                http://zuzeu.com/wp-content/uploads/zuzeu/03_11/4742_medium_xegone.jpg

                                Video:
                                http://www.eitb.com/es/videos/detalle/617762/el-conquistador-entrevista-xegone/
                              • ertydfh110
                                I add another curiosity. In this case it is not an Agote. Last week on Spanish television there was a program about Spanish nobility. There was a man, who is a
                                Message 15 of 18 , Oct 9, 2011
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                                  I add another curiosity. In this case it is not an Agote. Last week on Spanish television there was a program about Spanish nobility. There was a man, who is a marques, that in the minute 23:50 he is showing his family genealogy and he says that he is an ancestor or Ervigio, a gothic king:

                                  http://www.rtve.es/noticias/20111003/comando-actualidad-zona-noble/465800.shtml

                                  From minute 20 he is on the program and on 23:50 he shows his genealogical tree.

                                  It is just a curiosity.
                                • OSCAR HERRE
                                   my name is derived from the gothic namesakes......i have descendants from noth central sspain and up to the northeastern part at the border of
                                  Message 16 of 18 , Oct 9, 2011
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                                     my name is derived from the gothic namesakes......i have descendants from noth central sspain and up to the northeastern part at the border of france.......back to the 16th century,,,,,,

                                    --- On Sun, 10/9/11, ertydfh110 <ertydfh110@...> wrote:


                                    From: ertydfh110 <ertydfh110@...>
                                    Subject: [gothic-l] Re: Spanish Goths
                                    To: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com
                                    Date: Sunday, October 9, 2011, 5:41 PM



                                     



                                    This guy is supposed to be a real Agote descendant. He is from the Batzan Vally in the Pirineos (where many agotes lived). He also played as an Agote in a recent film.

                                    Picture:
                                    http://zuzeu.com/wp-content/uploads/zuzeu/03_11/4742_medium_xegone.jpg

                                    Video:
                                    http://www.eitb.com/es/videos/detalle/617762/el-conquistador-entrevista-xegone/








                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • OSCAR HERRE
                                    also read when i was in college thru historical records that the goth were  say like the u. s. marines when they collaborated to turn back the muslim
                                    Message 17 of 18 , Oct 9, 2011
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                                      also read when i was in college thru historical records that the goth were  say like the u. s. marines when they collaborated to turn back the muslim invasion......

                                      --- On Sun, 10/9/11, ertydfh110 <ertydfh110@...> wrote:


                                      From: ertydfh110 <ertydfh110@...>
                                      Subject: [gothic-l] Re: Spanish Goths
                                      To: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com
                                      Date: Sunday, October 9, 2011, 5:57 PM



                                       



                                      I add another curiosity. In this case it is not an Agote. Last week on Spanish television there was a program about Spanish nobility. There was a man, who is a marques, that in the minute 23:50 he is showing his family genealogy and he says that he is an ancestor or Ervigio, a gothic king:

                                      http://www.rtve.es/noticias/20111003/comando-actualidad-zona-noble/465800.shtml

                                      From minute 20 he is on the program and on 23:50 he shows his genealogical tree.

                                      It is just a curiosity.








                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • OSCAR HERRE
                                      the goths changed all western european history thru their trimphs and tribulations and yet they have only chosen a modest civilized world with peace and
                                      Message 18 of 18 , Oct 9, 2011
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                                        the goths changed all western european history thru their trimphs and tribulations and yet they have only chosen a modest civilized world with peace and prosperity....

                                        --- On Sun, 10/9/11, ertydfh110 <ertydfh110@...> wrote:


                                        From: ertydfh110 <ertydfh110@...>
                                        Subject: [gothic-l] Re: Spanish Goths
                                        To: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com
                                        Date: Sunday, October 9, 2011, 5:57 PM



                                         



                                        I add another curiosity. In this case it is not an Agote. Last week on Spanish television there was a program about Spanish nobility. There was a man, who is a marques, that in the minute 23:50 he is showing his family genealogy and he says that he is an ancestor or Ervigio, a gothic king:

                                        http://www.rtve.es/noticias/20111003/comando-actualidad-zona-noble/465800.shtml

                                        From minute 20 he is on the program and on 23:50 he shows his genealogical tree.

                                        It is just a curiosity.








                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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