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Re: Spanish surnames

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  • faltin2001
    ... Spain ... precise and call it castilian, as there are many other languages in Spain. ... basques/castilians at the beginning of the 2nd millenium, hence
    Message 1 of 28 , Jun 4, 2004
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      --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "Denis Glenard" <denisglenard@y...>
      wrote:
      > Hi Dirk,
      > Hi everyone,
      >
      > I'm not a scholar in these things, but there are a couple points
      from your previous Emails I'd like to press here:
      >
      > "Dirk:
      > I doubt that this is correct to be honest. The Roman period in
      Spain
      > is very important and Spanish, as a romanic language is a direct
      > result."
      >
      > Spanish is definitely a romance language. We should perhaps be very
      precise and call it castilian, as there are many other languages in
      Spain.
      > Castilian is only a romance dialect, mainly spoken by the southern
      basques/castilians at the beginning of the 2nd millenium, hence the
      pronunciation of modern "spanish" is derived from basque (that's why
      they "sound" the same). The fact that the Reconquista was undertaken
      from the northern territories, including the Basque Country, helped
      impose this dialect as the main one in the kingdom, although many
      others were and still are spoken locally (whether these are languages
      or dialects is not relevant here, there are many battles going around
      this, quite a few of them political).



      Hi Dennis,

      thanks for elaborating the point. This is exactly what I thought as
      well. Thus, Spanish is a Romanic language of course and Spanish is
      due to the Roman presence in Spain.






      >
      > The Iberian language, the language spoken before the Roman invasion
      of Spain, is quite well known. It has it's own alphabet and although
      some of it is still not understood, progress is made every year.
      >


      Dirk:
      Yes, an intesting alphabet too which bears casual similarity with
      Germanic runes, although it has nothing to do with Runes.





      > Modern Spanish language is therefore made of bits and pieces taken
      from the languages spoken by it's invaders and original inhabitants,
      Celts, Iberians, Basque, Goths, Moors, etc. in varyiing degrees,
      obviously.



      Dirk:
      Yep, but nontheless Spanish is clearly recognisable a Romanic
      language it is infact so close to Italian that Italian often claim to
      understand Spanish without any prior study.







      >
      > Dirk, you state in your other Email : "modern Spaniards (...)
      include a
      > rich mixure of ethnic groups including people like Celt-Iberians,
      > Romans, Greeks, North Africans, Jews and of course Germanics."
      >
      > I resent your leaving out the Basque, who were there before almost
      all of the other ethnic groups, who have fought every battle to free
      Spain from every kind of invader.



      Dirk:
      True, I just foregot the Basques. In fact, I probably foregot a few
      more other groups and I did not claim to have presented a
      comprehensive list. The Basques are however, more important and
      should not be left out.







      Denis:
      You also leave out the Phoenicians (the palm fields in Elche (Elx)
      were planted by them as a food resource for their maritime trips) and
      the Cartaginese (although one could say they're part of the "north
      Africans").


      Dirk:
      As I said the list was not meant to include all.




      Denis:
      > I'm not sure either I agree with you assertion of the mixture with
      the Moors and Jews. The mixture was rare, for religious, not race
      reasons.




      Dirk:
      We certainly know that Visigoths and Moors intermarried at the
      highest levels of society. Many Spanish Jews converted to Catholicsim
      thus removing the religious barrier. Spain traditionally had a very
      strong Jewish population and I guess a lot of intermarriage took
      place over time, but I cannot be certain.








      Denis:
      > The Moors (who weren't that many to start with) did not take in
      converts, simply beacause christians paid more taxes.





      As I said we know that the Moslem elite married with Visigothic
      elites. So the barrier cannot have been too high. Also, I included
      the Berbers with the actual Arabs.






      Denis:
      As for Jews, it is a well known fact that they do not proselytise and
      you are only Jewish because your mother was Jewish. This is why it
      was easy for the Catholic Kings to root out Muslims and Jews in 1492;
      had they been mixed within the general population, it would have been
      impossible.



      Dirk
      That is probably correct, but we are discussing ethnic (non-
      religious) backgrounds. Thus, many Spanish Jews converted to
      Catholicism (I think there was even a special name for them) and
      those will to a large extend have been absorbed into the modern
      Spanish population.






      > This of course does not mean 100% separation, just that mixing was
      so small than it would probably be impossible to trace nowadays.


      Dirk:
      That might be the case, but this is probably also true for the
      Visigothic input.




      >
      > Sorry if I've been a bit long on this one, but the Basque can never
      be taken for granted ;-)))
      >



      Newer research suggests that the Basques may have played a much
      bigger role in holding of the Moslems from the North than was
      traditionally acknowledged.

      Cheers
      Dirk
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