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Re: Spanish surnames

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  • faltin2001
    ... posting, which clears up the other one which arrogantly belittled the Visigothic contribution to the Iberic Peninsula. It seems that many scholars nowadays
    Message 1 of 28 , Jun 4 4:55 AM
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      --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Jorge Alexandre S G <dowrgwyns@y...>

      wrote:
      > It was very comforting to read this superb and scientifically based
      posting, which clears up the other one which arrogantly belittled the
      Visigothic contribution to the Iberic Peninsula.
      It seems that many scholars nowadays are actually politically
      biased ,which shows in itself the great danger of science being seen
      as truely neutral, as I once learned when I took one year of Social
      Sciences ,cause its objectivity is only an ideal,its being highly
      influenced by many subjective and political reasons.


      Dirk:
      That is true, and that is why some people glorify ethnic groups and
      distort their history. Certainly, these distortions are often to the
      taste of many people, which, however, does not make them any more
      correct.

      Cheers
      Dirk
    • Denis Glenard
      Hi Dirk, Hi everyone, I m not a scholar in these things, but there are a couple points from your previous Emails I d like to press here: Dirk: I doubt that
      Message 2 of 28 , Jun 4 6:48 AM
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        Hi Dirk,
        Hi everyone,

        I'm not a scholar in these things, but there are a couple points from your previous Emails I'd like to press here:

        "Dirk:
        I doubt that this is correct to be honest. The Roman period in Spain
        is very important and Spanish, as a romanic language is a direct
        result."

        Spanish is definitely a romance language. We should perhaps be very precise and call it castilian, as there are many other languages in Spain.
        Castilian is only a romance dialect, mainly spoken by the southern basques/castilians at the beginning of the 2nd millenium, hence the pronunciation of modern "spanish" is derived from basque (that's why they "sound" the same). The fact that the Reconquista was undertaken from the northern territories, including the Basque Country, helped impose this dialect as the main one in the kingdom, although many others were and still are spoken locally (whether these are languages or dialects is not relevant here, there are many battles going around this, quite a few of them political).

        The Iberian language, the language spoken before the Roman invasion of Spain, is quite well known. It has it's own alphabet and although some of it is still not understood, progress is made every year.

        Modern Spanish language is therefore made of bits and pieces taken from the languages spoken by it's invaders and original inhabitants, Celts, Iberians, Basque, Goths, Moors, etc. in varyiing degrees, obviously.

        Dirk, you state in your other Email : "modern Spaniards (...) include a
        rich mixure of ethnic groups including people like Celt-Iberians,
        Romans, Greeks, North Africans, Jews and of course Germanics."

        I resent your leaving out the Basque, who were there before almost all of the other ethnic groups, who have fought every battle to free Spain from every kind of invader. You also leave out the Phoenicians (the palm fields in Elche (Elx) were planted by them as a food resource for their maritime trips) and the Cartaginese (although one could say they're part of the "north Africans").
        I'm not sure either I agree with you assertion of the mixture with the Moors and Jews. The mixture was rare, for religious, not race reasons.
        The Moors (who weren't that many to start with) did not take in converts, simply beacause christians paid more taxes. As for Jews, it is a well known fact that they do not proselytise and you are only Jewish because your mother was Jewish. This is why it was easy for the Catholic Kings to root out Muslims and Jews in 1492; had they been mixed within the general population, it would have been impossible.
        This of course does not mean 100% separation, just that mixing was so small than it would probably be impossible to trace nowadays.

        Sorry if I've been a bit long on this one, but the Basque can never be taken for granted ;-)))

        Denis GLENARD








        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • faltin2001
        ... Spain ... precise and call it castilian, as there are many other languages in Spain. ... basques/castilians at the beginning of the 2nd millenium, hence
        Message 3 of 28 , Jun 4 7:35 AM
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          --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "Denis Glenard" <denisglenard@y...>
          wrote:
          > Hi Dirk,
          > Hi everyone,
          >
          > I'm not a scholar in these things, but there are a couple points
          from your previous Emails I'd like to press here:
          >
          > "Dirk:
          > I doubt that this is correct to be honest. The Roman period in
          Spain
          > is very important and Spanish, as a romanic language is a direct
          > result."
          >
          > Spanish is definitely a romance language. We should perhaps be very
          precise and call it castilian, as there are many other languages in
          Spain.
          > Castilian is only a romance dialect, mainly spoken by the southern
          basques/castilians at the beginning of the 2nd millenium, hence the
          pronunciation of modern "spanish" is derived from basque (that's why
          they "sound" the same). The fact that the Reconquista was undertaken
          from the northern territories, including the Basque Country, helped
          impose this dialect as the main one in the kingdom, although many
          others were and still are spoken locally (whether these are languages
          or dialects is not relevant here, there are many battles going around
          this, quite a few of them political).



          Hi Dennis,

          thanks for elaborating the point. This is exactly what I thought as
          well. Thus, Spanish is a Romanic language of course and Spanish is
          due to the Roman presence in Spain.






          >
          > The Iberian language, the language spoken before the Roman invasion
          of Spain, is quite well known. It has it's own alphabet and although
          some of it is still not understood, progress is made every year.
          >


          Dirk:
          Yes, an intesting alphabet too which bears casual similarity with
          Germanic runes, although it has nothing to do with Runes.





          > Modern Spanish language is therefore made of bits and pieces taken
          from the languages spoken by it's invaders and original inhabitants,
          Celts, Iberians, Basque, Goths, Moors, etc. in varyiing degrees,
          obviously.



          Dirk:
          Yep, but nontheless Spanish is clearly recognisable a Romanic
          language it is infact so close to Italian that Italian often claim to
          understand Spanish without any prior study.







          >
          > Dirk, you state in your other Email : "modern Spaniards (...)
          include a
          > rich mixure of ethnic groups including people like Celt-Iberians,
          > Romans, Greeks, North Africans, Jews and of course Germanics."
          >
          > I resent your leaving out the Basque, who were there before almost
          all of the other ethnic groups, who have fought every battle to free
          Spain from every kind of invader.



          Dirk:
          True, I just foregot the Basques. In fact, I probably foregot a few
          more other groups and I did not claim to have presented a
          comprehensive list. The Basques are however, more important and
          should not be left out.







          Denis:
          You also leave out the Phoenicians (the palm fields in Elche (Elx)
          were planted by them as a food resource for their maritime trips) and
          the Cartaginese (although one could say they're part of the "north
          Africans").


          Dirk:
          As I said the list was not meant to include all.




          Denis:
          > I'm not sure either I agree with you assertion of the mixture with
          the Moors and Jews. The mixture was rare, for religious, not race
          reasons.




          Dirk:
          We certainly know that Visigoths and Moors intermarried at the
          highest levels of society. Many Spanish Jews converted to Catholicsim
          thus removing the religious barrier. Spain traditionally had a very
          strong Jewish population and I guess a lot of intermarriage took
          place over time, but I cannot be certain.








          Denis:
          > The Moors (who weren't that many to start with) did not take in
          converts, simply beacause christians paid more taxes.





          As I said we know that the Moslem elite married with Visigothic
          elites. So the barrier cannot have been too high. Also, I included
          the Berbers with the actual Arabs.






          Denis:
          As for Jews, it is a well known fact that they do not proselytise and
          you are only Jewish because your mother was Jewish. This is why it
          was easy for the Catholic Kings to root out Muslims and Jews in 1492;
          had they been mixed within the general population, it would have been
          impossible.



          Dirk
          That is probably correct, but we are discussing ethnic (non-
          religious) backgrounds. Thus, many Spanish Jews converted to
          Catholicism (I think there was even a special name for them) and
          those will to a large extend have been absorbed into the modern
          Spanish population.






          > This of course does not mean 100% separation, just that mixing was
          so small than it would probably be impossible to trace nowadays.


          Dirk:
          That might be the case, but this is probably also true for the
          Visigothic input.




          >
          > Sorry if I've been a bit long on this one, but the Basque can never
          be taken for granted ;-)))
          >



          Newer research suggests that the Basques may have played a much
          bigger role in holding of the Moslems from the North than was
          traditionally acknowledged.

          Cheers
          Dirk
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