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Re: Spanish surnames

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  • faltin2001
    ... apparently nothing much has changed around here, thank God. :) ... spanish and another one gothic, well, I m not very much into the good old Divide and
    Message 1 of 28 , May 17, 2004
      --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Leonardo Frithunanths
      <frithunanths_scandza@y...> wrote:
      >
      > Hails Allum!
      >
      > After an absence of 3 years I've returned to this list, and
      apparently nothing much has changed around here, thank God. :)
      >
      > I would like to make comment on what Oscargoth once wrote.
      >
      > Oscar,- I couldn't agree more with you!!!!
      >
      > But regarding a possible division where one part would speak
      spanish and another one gothic, well, I'm not very much into
      the 'good old' "Divide and conquer/rule" system, I think that we've
      seen too much of that throughout history.
      >
      > But I'm most definitely positive to that idea of awakening the
      spanish people into the knowledge of their glorious legacy, the
      Visigoths, successors of the romans and defenders of the Iberian
      Peninsula.



      Dirk:
      They didn't do a particularly good job defending the Peninsula I
      think. I mean loosing the whole place in one battle? In fact, as you
      know the last Visigothic rulers were highly divided and parts of them
      have most likely called in the Moors. Also, by far most Visigoths
      lived well under the Moors.









      >This glorious, highly intelligent





      Dirk:
      I don't think that a people as such can be highly intelligent. Some
      of them will have been intelligent others will have been less so.







      and also from a cultural/religious point of view, interesting people
      who in modern times have most often been blemished by far too many
      people(specially from the church...).






      Dirk:
      I think they have mostly been glorified out of all proportion,
      especially by the church in Spain. Afterall the reconquista tried to
      envoke the Catholic Visigothic realm.












      For me it seems extremely reasonable to do all this (except for the
      division of Spain) considering the following things:
      In Spain there's today a growing awareness of their celtic heritage,
      very much expressed in e.g newly founded cultural groups and feasts.
      Euskera needs no further introduction considering the great
      importance that it already enjoys in today's Northern Spain.
      Regarding Iberian, well.. very little is known still today about this
      ancient language and apparently those who understand it, even a
      little bit, are all scientists or amateur scientists.
      > Arabic is taught in Spain at several institutions and besides,
      today's spanish urban citizens have a close contact with them and
      their culture considering the vast amount of arabic inmigrants that
      live in Spain today.
      >
      > Latin and the cultures that it spawned has, is and will most
      definitely always be taught at schools, universities and other
      institutions throughout Spain.
      >
      > It therefore leaves us with the Gothic discourse. As people in
      Spain are taught in history about the Romans, La Reconquista and the
      Moors(+ the very, very little that is also taught about the Iberians,
      Basques, Greeks, Phoenicians, Celts/Celtiberians, Alans and the
      Germanic tribes). Spanish is being taught, as well as other languages
      which have nothing much to do with the Peninsula such as English or
      French. Why can't Gothic be taught then?





      Dirk:
      I suppose it could be taught, but there will likely be very little
      interest, apart from students of Germanistics. The Goths who arrived
      on the Iberian peninsular around 500AD were already in the process of
      loosing their Germanic language. The Visigoths in Spain spoke at best
      only for about 1 generation Gothic if it all. A 6 century source
      calls them the Roman Goths, likely to show that they were mostly
      Latin speaking.







      Considering that they did establish themselves on the Peninsula,
      they ruled and influenced it forever by mixing themselves with the
      rest of the population.






      Dirk:
      Their cultural influence is undeniably very significant, but their
      ethnic input is hardly more than a drop in an ocean, outnumbered even
      by the input of other minorities like Jews, Berbers etc.










      They also provided to the heritage by leaving customs, sayings, words
      and other cultural traits. As mentioned, they ruled it and left
      behind them significant edifications such as churches, monuments
      etc... and even at least one town(!) such as Reccopolis.
      >
      > The goths and their descendants were crucial in all means in
      contributing to the outcome of what is known today as Spain.
      >
      > Therefore I call out to everyone out there (especialmente a
      aquellos de esta lista que viven en España), isn't there anything
      that can be done in order to promulge yet again the knowledge(e.g
      their language, history and religion) about AND of the Goths in
      Spain?
      >
      > 'Anything?! There must be!
      >






      Dirk:
      No harm in trying; but it would be an artificial reconstruction based
      on some sort of patriotism/nationalism and in disregard of the true
      ethnnic and cultural origins of Spain, which certainly is not
      Visigothic, but to which the Visigoths made a contribution.

      Cheers
      Dirk
    • OSCAR HERRERA
      oscargoth- dirk you know little of the goths.how spanish was invoked as a language ,well lets say we dont know.it was spoken there before the romans
      Message 2 of 28 , May 18, 2004
        oscargoth- dirk you know little of the goths.how spanish was invoked as a language ,well lets say we dont know.it was spoken there before the romans arrived.the goths on the other hand were a well adapting germanic tribe and were very loyal to their own language as shown by many gothic kings that ruled in spain prior to the moors invasion. their names were germanic,such as sisabut,sigeric,wallia,theudigiesel and on....history also said the goths drove the moors out..... so, why did these people give up their language and change spanish to its present pronunciation instead of invoking the gothic language and using a liitle spanish in it. in conclusion gothic is nice to speak and i think the germanic peoples of europe should be entitled to more than just a few germanic languages spoken in north europe...

        faltin2001 <dirk@...> wrote:--- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Leonardo Frithunanths
        wrote:
        >
        > Hails Allum!
        >
        > After an absence of 3 years I've returned to this list, and
        apparently nothing much has changed around here, thank God. :)
        >
        > I would like to make comment on what Oscargoth once wrote.
        >
        > Oscar,- I couldn't agree more with you!!!!
        >
        > But regarding a possible division where one part would speak
        spanish and another one gothic, well, I'm not very much into
        the 'good old' "Divide and conquer/rule" system, I think that we've
        seen too much of that throughout history.
        >
        > But I'm most definitely positive to that idea of awakening the
        spanish people into the knowledge of their glorious legacy, the
        Visigoths, successors of the romans and defenders of the Iberian
        Peninsula.



        Dirk:
        They didn't do a particularly good job defending the Peninsula I
        think. I mean loosing the whole place in one battle? In fact, as you
        know the last Visigothic rulers were highly divided and parts of them
        have most likely called in the Moors. Also, by far most Visigoths
        lived well under the Moors.









        >This glorious, highly intelligent





        Dirk:
        I don't think that a people as such can be highly intelligent. Some
        of them will have been intelligent others will have been less so.







        and also from a cultural/religious point of view, interesting people
        who in modern times have most often been blemished by far too many
        people(specially from the church...).






        Dirk:
        I think they have mostly been glorified out of all proportion,
        especially by the church in Spain. Afterall the reconquista tried to
        envoke the Catholic Visigothic realm.












        For me it seems extremely reasonable to do all this (except for the
        division of Spain) considering the following things:
        In Spain there's today a growing awareness of their celtic heritage,
        very much expressed in e.g newly founded cultural groups and feasts.
        Euskera needs no further introduction considering the great
        importance that it already enjoys in today's Northern Spain.
        Regarding Iberian, well.. very little is known still today about this
        ancient language and apparently those who understand it, even a
        little bit, are all scientists or amateur scientists.
        > Arabic is taught in Spain at several institutions and besides,
        today's spanish urban citizens have a close contact with them and
        their culture considering the vast amount of arabic inmigrants that
        live in Spain today.
        >
        > Latin and the cultures that it spawned has, is and will most
        definitely always be taught at schools, universities and other
        institutions throughout Spain.
        >
        > It therefore leaves us with the Gothic discourse. As people in
        Spain are taught in history about the Romans, La Reconquista and the
        Moors(+ the very, very little that is also taught about the Iberians,
        Basques, Greeks, Phoenicians, Celts/Celtiberians, Alans and the
        Germanic tribes). Spanish is being taught, as well as other languages
        which have nothing much to do with the Peninsula such as English or
        French. Why can't Gothic be taught then?





        Dirk:
        I suppose it could be taught, but there will likely be very little
        interest, apart from students of Germanistics. The Goths who arrived
        on the Iberian peninsular around 500AD were already in the process of
        loosing their Germanic language. The Visigoths in Spain spoke at best
        only for about 1 generation Gothic if it all. A 6 century source
        calls them the Roman Goths, likely to show that they were mostly
        Latin speaking.







        Considering that they did establish themselves on the Peninsula,
        they ruled and influenced it forever by mixing themselves with the
        rest of the population.






        Dirk:
        Their cultural influence is undeniably very significant, but their
        ethnic input is hardly more than a drop in an ocean, outnumbered even
        by the input of other minorities like Jews, Berbers etc.










        They also provided to the heritage by leaving customs, sayings, words
        and other cultural traits. As mentioned, they ruled it and left
        behind them significant edifications such as churches, monuments
        etc... and even at least one town(!) such as Reccopolis.
        >
        > The goths and their descendants were crucial in all means in
        contributing to the outcome of what is known today as Spain.
        >
        > Therefore I call out to everyone out there (especialmente a
        aquellos de esta lista que viven en Espa�a), isn't there anything
        that can be done in order to promulge yet again the knowledge(e.g
        their language, history and religion) about AND of the Goths in
        Spain?
        >
        > 'Anything?! There must be!
        >






        Dirk:
        No harm in trying; but it would be an artificial reconstruction based
        on some sort of patriotism/nationalism and in disregard of the true
        ethnnic and cultural origins of Spain, which certainly is not
        Visigothic, but to which the Visigoths made a contribution.

        Cheers
        Dirk




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        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • F. E. Jiménez Díaz
        Hello Leonardo, I missed seeing your post for an entire week, but I m quite glad that I stumbled on to it this morning. Welcome back to the Gothic-L. I am glad
        Message 3 of 28 , May 26, 2004
          Hello Leonardo,
          I missed seeing your post for an entire week, but I'm quite glad that
          I stumbled on to it this morning.
          Welcome back to the Gothic-L.
          I am glad to read of your interest in the Visigoths of the Spanish
          Gothia.

          >--- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Leonardo Frithunanths
          ><frithunanths_scandza@y...> >wrote:
          >
          >Hails Allum!
          >
          >After an absence of 3 years I've returned to this list, and
          apparently nothing much has >changed around here, thank God. :)
          >
          >I would like to make comment on what Oscargoth once wrote.
          >But regarding a possible division where one part would speak Spanish
          >and another one gothic, well, I'm not very much into the 'good old'
          >"Divide and conquer/rule" system, I think that we've seen too much
          >of that throughout history.
          >But I'm most definitely positive to that idea of awakening the
          >Spanish people into the knowledge of their glorious legacy,

          F.E.J.D writes:
          Leonardo, I think the idea of offering Spaniards more exposure to
          their Gothic heritage, language and culture is an interesting cause
          especially since at present there is a great resurgence of interest in
          those very things, however, I am convinced that what you state can
          best be accomplished by allowing your interest and enthusiasm to spark
          the same interest and enthusiasm in those around you. Get involved
          yourself and do not count on anyone else. In addition, along with your
          interest, you must also be ready to supply cogent, meaningful and
          relevant content that will make the undertaking reasonable to others.
          Therefore, read voraciously, learn and contrast the differing points
          of view and become well rounded in as many aspects of that scholarship
          as you can.
          It is quite true that knowing one's history can be an enriching and
          positive life changing experience. It informs our worldview, and
          allows us to imbue with value the things that we ordinarily take for
          granted. It also tends to ground us in the consensus of knowledge
          concerning such matters so that we are not fooled by the inadequately
          informed and/or purposely misleading opinions of other individuals.

          >the Visigoths, successors of the Romans and defenders of the Iberian
          >Peninsula.

          F.E.J.D. writes:
          I am also of the opinion that the Visigoths WERE able defenders of
          their people as the Clades Variana and other subsequent battles inform
          us. Like you, I believe that they continued to defend their people and
          homeland in Gothispania. They subdued the Vandals, Suebi, Byzantines
          and turned away the advances of the Franks and other menacing
          elements. Nonetheless, human frailty is always at work. Unfortunately,
          the success of the Moorish invasion can be attributed to certain
          Visigoth factions that conspired with certain other religious and/or
          ethnic elements whom the Visigoths had oppressed under Sisebut (among
          others). The latter elements allowed the passage of the Moors into
          Spain while Roderick was quelling an insurrection in the Basque
          highlands. By the time Roderick received the news, made retreat,
          resupplied, tasked his generals and arrived to do battle, the Moors
          had penetrated well into the south and were rested, rehearsed in their
          tactics and ready to wage war. The ensuing death of Roderick put the
          Visigoths into disarray but the Visigoths managed, to delay the
          Moorish advance for some months and to keep them from taking the
          territories in the northern mountains, the latter allowed the time and
          space to let a great host of nobles and warriors and their families to
          take refuge there. Thereafter, they were successful in keeping the
          Moors from taking those areas. Those that remained in Moorish occupied
          lands did not fare as well. The latter were subjected to extremely
          high taxes, curtailed freedoms, certain religious oppressions and even
          a yearly territorial tribute of 100 virgins "having blue eyes and
          golden hair" who were subjected to "forcible rape" in the caliph's
          harems. Fortunately, the latter practice was eliminated within a short
          time after a great revolt ensued. Such revolt and resistance to the
          Moors was revelatory of the things to come. As regards conditions and
          relations under the Moors, John Crow states, "Quite unlike the
          Visigoths, the Moors were never able effectively to establish their
          dominion over Catholic Spain. By the eleventh century the battle lines
          between the two religions were clearly drawn, and by the thirteenth
          century (only the southern parts of Iberia were yet occupied by the
          Moors, [mine]) these lines had become a part of the national folk and
          literary tradition. Hence, the particular and very Christian point of
          view, which comes across to us from the ballads about Rodereik, a
          feeble monarch who had been turned into a national legend, indicates
          to us how oral tradition faithfully caught and reflected the
          polarization of Spanish resistance to Islam (sic), (Crow, 1985). Here
          I make two points. 1). Even after the defeat at Guadalete, resistance
          to the invaders was consistently demonstrated. 2). Despite the defeat
          at Guadalete (which must NOT be seen as an end to Visigothic identity)
          the exiled Visigoths in the mountains of Asturias (quite aware of
          their duty to defend) remained steadfast in protecting their people
          and homeland. In fact, only seven years after the Moorish invasion a
          horde of nobles and warriors, the great majority being Visigoths from
          the previous Toledan kingdom or their direct descendants (commanded
          under Pelagius - grandson of Reccesvinth), successfully expelled
          Munuza, the Moorish provincial governor from the footsteps of the
          northern highlands. Thereafter, the defeat of Alkama at Covadonga
          sealed the beginning of the 700-year long but eventually successful
          struggle of the Reconquista. Thus, the origins of the Reconquista
          itself can be attributed to Pelagius, Reccesvinth's grandson who by
          example in leadership and political savvy was able to lead the remnant
          Visigoths and amalgamate the forces of the Vascones and Celtic people
          of Galicia and Asturias against the Moorish enemy. The latter was the
          only way that massive enough forces could successfully be mustered
          against the enemy. It is important to note that after Covadonga and
          after all Moorish forces were expelled from northern Spain the council
          of Albelda (822CE) records NOT CHURCH LEADERS or some other vicarious
          entity but Alfons II (great-great-great-grandson of Visigothic King
          Reccared instituting OMNEM GOTORUM ORDINEM SICUT TOLETO FUERAT - THE
          WHOLE ORGANIZATION OF THE GOTHS JUST AS IT WAS AT TOLEDO. What needs
          to be understood here is that the singular defeat at Guadalete
          (especially under its particular circumstances) cannot define and
          fault a lack of resolve on the part of the Visigoths to defend person
          and homeland. Rather, it is evident in the above stated events that
          there was a continuation and affirmation of Visigothic identity by the
          descendents of Visigoths in the royal lineage, nobility and warrior
          ranks while exiled in Asturias as well as a resolve to defend person
          and homeland (especially against the Moorish invaders) for centuries
          well after 711.

          >This glorious, highly intelligent and also from a cultural/religious
          >point of view, interesting people –cut-

          F.E.J.D. writes:
          Leonardo, I am convinced that all humans are relatively intelligent;
          also, the word glorious is too subjective here and must be embraced as
          a matter of opinion. Nonetheless the Visigoths must be commended for
          learning to survive against great odds, their incredible journey
          through almost an entire continent, their conquests; legal codes,
          artistic and architectural endeavors which devised the forerunner to
          Romanesque architecture and the flying buttress as well as their
          relentless pursuit for liberty, their contribution to the preservation
          of certain Germanic and Roman institutions through a thoughtful
          synthesis of each other's ideas and most importantly, the mysterious
          glue that held all of the latter and their people together through so
          much hardship for so many years. --- Wow! No wonder we are still
          asking questions about them…

          >who in modern times have most often been blemished by far too many
          >people(specially from the church...).

          F.E.J.D. writes:
          Leonardo, (Very Broadly) it seems (in Spain) there have been two
          ideological camps as concerns the Visigoths. One camp sees them
          generally as having made positive contributions; it weighs their pros
          and cons in a relatively balanced way. The other - realizes their
          contributions but in the end sees them as uncouth barbarian
          interlopers that destroyed the primacy of Roman civilization. The
          latter I attribute to certain historical biases found in the faculties
          of certain universities. They tend to worship everything Roman and
          chafe when dealing with Germanic contributions. They fail to see that
          what the Visigoth's accomplished is part of their very loins.
          Fortunately it is a minority view. Nonetheless, as has been already
          stated the Germanic contribution be it genetic, artistic or
          intellectual is inescapable.

          >For me it seems extremely reasonable to do all this (except for the
          >division of Spain) considering the following things:
          >In Spain there's today a growing awareness of their celtic heritage,
          >very much expressed in e.g newly founded cultural groups and feasts.
          >Euskera needs no further introduction considering the great
          >importance that it already enjoys in today's Northern Spain.
          >Regarding Iberian, well.. very little is known still today about this
          >ancient language and apparently those who understand it, even a
          >little bit, are all scientists or amateur scientists. Arabic is
          >taught in Spain at several Institutions and besides, today's spanish
          >urban citizens have a close contact with them and their culture
          >considering the vast amount of arabic inmigrants that live in Spain
          >today.

          >Latin and the cultures that it spawned has, is and will most
          >definitely always be taught at schools, universities and other
          >institutions throughout Spain.

          >It therefore leaves us with the Gothic discourse. As people in Spain
          >are taught in history about the Romans, La Reconquista and the
          >Moors(+ the very, very little that is also taught about the Iberians,
          >Basques, Greeks, Phoenicians, Celts/Celtiberians, Alans and the
          >Germanic tribes).

          F.E.J.D. writes:
          Leonardo, the latter is part of the bias that I just explained.

          >Spanish is being taught, as well as other languages which have
          >nothing much to do with the Peninsula such as English or French. Why
          >can't Gothic be taught then?


          F.E.J.D. writes:
          Interestingly, Leonardo, I know of someone who is in the process of
          home schooling his children and he and his wife have been teaching
          them Old English and Gothic. The children are incredibly bright and
          have already mastered several known languages. In my own experience,
          language is best learned at an early age, and as I found out while
          taking the course anthropological linguistics during my baccalaureate,
          it develops our "metalinguistic awareness", which further serves us in
          attaining mastery over yet other languages. -- Nonetheless Leonardo,
          language is only part of the whole; a comprehensive understanding of
          the Goths and Visigoths as well as other relevant Germanic tribes must
          encompass all aspects of those cultures. To that end I wonder if a
          (less passive) forum should be created where members are more actively
          led, engaged, and encouraged to publish and/or discuss good articles
          and anecdotes on relevant Germanic and Gothic/Visigothic languages,
          culture, history, anthropology and all other aspects of relevant
          Germanic and Gothic/Visigothic scholarship. The group should also have
          a web page and also accommodate people posting in other languages.
          Perhaps I'll look into creating such a list myself. My only concern
          would be not to negatively impact this lists member base. I do not
          think it would. Also, my suggestion should not be construed as
          negative criticism of the (Gothic-L). In fact, I corresponded with the
          founders before they created it was the third person to join after the
          owners. Thereafter, I announced this groups formation in "Oldnorsenet"
          (an old defunct forum) and quite a few joined-up forming the group's
          earliest member base. Rather, this list could remain just as it is,
          especially with its strong expertise as concerns questions about the
          Gothic language for which it is an excellent resource and with which
          it is often preoccupied.

          >Considering that they did establish themselves on the Peninsula, they
          >ruled and influenced it forever by mixing themselves with the rest of
          >the population.

          F.E.J.D. writes:
          Presently Leonardo, genetic haplotyping has minimized the inaccuracy
          of population studies, which relied solely on historical data,
          craniometry and typology and other circuitous and highly
          interpretational methods. No longer do we have to accept unreliable
          and/or sometimes "ulterior" subjective opinions on such things as the
          genetic contribution of people groups such as Visigoths (the largest
          of ALL Germanic tribes) to the Spanish population. Simply by
          understanding, contrasting and comparing the relevant haplogroups and
          haplotypes within a given population one is able to tell if there has
          been any extraneous admixture. It is interesting however that before
          there was haplotyping it had been thought (quite correctly) by many
          scholars, (including Bury), that the Visigoths numbered approximately
          300,000 in a peninsula of (at the time) [3,500,000 inhabitants
          (Kenneth W. Harl, Tulane U. 1998)]. Likewise, (Stanley Payne, 1973)
          concluded that the same number existed after the time of Alaric II
          (484-507); a ratio of (11.66) to (1). The later ratio is in fact close
          to the present ratio of African-Americans to European Americans in the
          U.S, a sizable element in the overall population. Even so, it is
          further thought that despite pressures from disease etc; the
          Visigothic law of "thirds", (where 2/3 of each Hispano-Roman villa was
          confiscated by Visigoths), would have given the Visigoths a greater
          advantage in increasing their numbers, that, since the ability to
          raise comestibles by having more land and better soils would have
          favored Visigoth families over those who had poor soil and less land
          and could not raise as much food. Furthermore, by projecting the
          previous trend to 711CE (a period of some 200 years) it is quite
          conceivable that the Visigoths could have narrowed the previously
          stated ratio to as little as 10 to 1. You must also notice that I have
          not factored-in other people Germanic people already in the peninsula,
          they are simply not included as part of the Visigothic population,
          namely the Suebi, which probably numbered around 80,000, and the
          remnant Vandals that remained in Spain or returned to the Balearic
          Islands and elsewhere after their ruinous mission to the south,
          however these were probably few. – Nonetheless, underpinning the best
          estimate of Visigoth admixture in Spain is the presence of suspect
          genetic signatures in the Y-chromosome and/or mtDNA of extant
          individuals where an inference may be made. The latter is in the
          process of being collected from the extant populations of (Spain,
          Pomerania, Gotland, and Southern Sweden as well as other suspected
          homelands. It is also being collected from bone found in known
          Gothic/Visigothic necropoli confirmed during archaeological excavation
          through sartorial fashion, jewelry and other relevant artifacts.
          Unfortunately, this study has been and will be underway for quite
          sometime since it is quite comprehensive and the collection and
          amplification of ancient materials is a slow process and/or has to be
          done with great care and covers such an extensive geographical area.
          Similar but smaller studies have been done by Dr. Brian Sykes to
          estimate the Norse Viking admixture in Britain and Iceland. Dr. Sykes,
          author of the "Seven Daughters of Eve" (a fantastic read that I highly
          recommend).

          [Explanation follows] (During the Last Glacial Maximum, about 18,000
          years ago, the people bearing the R1b haplogroup over wintered in
          Northern Spain (a refugium). After the glacial retreat about 12,000
          years before present, R1b began a migration to the north in large
          numbers and to the east in lesser numbers. "R1b probably arrived in
          Spain from the east some 30,000 years ago among the Paleolithic or
          "old stone age" peoples and is considered to be aboriginal to Europe.
          They absorbed and/or replaced the handful of inhabitants living in
          those areas. R1b is most concentrated in the population of the Basques
          and nearby areas of Northern Spain as well as Wales and western
          Ireland. It is at nearly 100% in those areas likely due to their
          geographical isolation curtailing immigration. In other words, the
          latter populations are among the most homogenous or (unmixed)
          populations in Europe, almost exclusively comprised of the R1b
          haplogroup and having almost no other haplogroup signatures in them.
          Further east R1b attains a distribution of 70% in the Low-countries
          and about 55% in places thought to be the contributing populations of
          the Anglo-Saxon and Danish tribes and also thins-out in its
          northernmost cline- Norway, where it is at 30%. The latter is current
          standard knowledge in the DNA concordances of Europe and well
          supported in a plethora of studies by numerous universities. "Everyone
          who has the R1b is a descendant in the male line from an individual
          known as "the patriarch" since his descendants account for over 40% of
          all the chromosomes of Europe. This haplogroup is characteristic of
          the Basques whose language is probably that of the first R1b, and who
          are genetically the closest to the original R1b population (which
          probably amounted to only a few thousand individuals)." (Source: Dr.
          David Faux). Now Leonardo – In order to contrast the genetic
          Contribution that may have come by way of other groups such as the
          Visigoths against the Spanish population at large, it is important to
          understand the aforementioned, as well as the signatures of nearby
          populations. However, the genetic neighborhood around Spain is either
          very similar (in the case of western France and the British Isles
          declining to the north and east, or radically different such as in the
          case of the populations of Northern Africa which originate from
          distinctly different patrilineages. To that end I include the
          following citations and several of my own findings: 1). "It is now
          understood that the Strait of Gibraltar seems to have acted as a
          strong (although not complete) barrier to gene flow…" (Bosch et al.,
          Am J Hum Genet, 2001) . 2). "The majority of Iberian lineages resemble
          those of central and northern Europe (Richards et al. 1996). 3). "It
          seems therefore that the genetic contribution by the Moorish presence
          in the peninsula, ((which had been considered by some as
          substantial)), (Reyment, 1983)…((has left little trace in the modern
          mtDNA gene pool))." (B. C. Sykes et al. 1996). 4). "The Islamic rule
          of Spain, which began in A.D. 711 and lasted almost 8 centuries, left
          only a minor contribution to the current Iberian Y-chromosome pool."
          (Bertranpetit et al. 1995; Côrte-Real et al. 1996; Pinto et al. 1996;
          Salas et al. 1998). In fact Leonardo, signatures from other
          populations only appear as tiny fractions of the Spanish population.
          For example, haplogroup U6 (A Berber signature) is only found at very
          low frequencies: 5). …"it has been found in 3 of 196 Portuguese and 2
          of 96 Galicians"… In view of the latter "MEAGER" contribution I am
          always bewildered why certain individuals who's knowledge about Spain
          or molecular anthropology is all but nil will go out of their way to
          make it seem that Spain's genetic makeup is largely Moorish; that,
          when the latter assertion (as has been shown) is scientifically
          untenable. I can only think it is an ulterior motive. Rather, the
          numbers of Berber lineages have several very good explanations. 1).
          The presence of U6 is an extremely ancient contribution dating to
          45,000YBP. This haplotype originated in western Asia and a handful of
          these individuals migrated to an almost empty Iberia just before the
          R1b haplogroup arrived there. Thus, many U6 signatures are echoes of
          an ancient handful of individuals living in Iberia prior to the LGM
          (last glacial maximum). 2). Depending on genetic distance it could
          also be the signature left over from the previously stated "tribute of
          Virgins" which took place in the areas where the U6 haplogroup is
          found). [Explanation]: It is well known that some of the women taken
          were returned to their families, either by the payment of ransom or
          during the rebellion of the local Christians (who found the practice
          intolerable). Some of the women had already been raped. Thus, it is
          very plausible since the "U6 signature is completely absent from all
          Andalusians tested and again absent in 162 other Iberians comprising
          the statistical population (5). (Bertranpetit et al. 1995; Côrte-Real
          et al. 1996; Pinto et al. 1996; Salas et al. 1998), and yet present in
          areas where the tribute took place that it is related to a genetic
          contribution through the raped victims. There is yet a further
          explanation. There is curious anecdotal and historical evidence as
          concerns the populace in the stated area, which does not come as a
          surprise to those of us that have invested considerable time studying
          the Spanish populace. Here I mean the "Maragatos", or Moorish-Goths.
          The latter are well attested in an old article by George Borrow
          (1803-1881) a British evangelist and travel writer of that time.
          (Please see the University of Adelaide Library Electronic Texts
          Collection.) Borrow states, "The Maragatos are perhaps the most
          singular caste to be found amongst the checquered population of Spain.
          They have their own peculiar customs and dress, and never intermarry
          with the Spaniards…There can be little doubt that they are a remnant
          of those Goths who sided with the Moors on their invasion of Spain,
          and who adopted their customs, and manner of dress, which, with the
          exception of the first, are still to a considerable degree retained by
          them. It is, however, evident that their blood has at no time mingled
          with that of the wild children of the desert, for scarcely amongst the
          hills of Norway would you find figures and faces more essentially
          Gothic than those of the Maragatos. They are strong athletic men, but
          loutish and heavy, and their features, though for the most part well
          formed, are vacant and devoid of expression. They are slow and plain
          of speech, and those eloquent and imaginative sallies so common in the
          conversation of other Spaniards, seldom or never escape them; they
          have, moreover, a coarse thick pronunciation, and when you hear them
          speak, you almost imagine that it is some German or English peasant
          attempting to express himself in the language of the Peninsula
          (Borrow, 1840)" The latter is obviously only anecdotal, however,
          recent findings have shed great scientific light on the Maragatos. In
          the new study; Mitochondrial DNA characterization of European
          isolates: the Maragatos from Spain, (Larruga JM, Diez F, Pinto et al.)
          their uniqueness becomes clear. The study states; Mitochondrial DNA
          analysis confirms that Maragatos from Spain are a genetically isolated
          human group. Genetic distances between Maragatos and the comparison
          samples are significantly different even with the Leon sample
          (P<0.001), which shares the same geographic area as the Maragatos.
          Although the north-African haplogroup U6 is present in them, their
          attributed Berber origin is weakened, as this haplogroup is also
          detected in surrounding populations with which, in addition, Maragatos
          have the smaller genetic distances." The later only a vestige echo
          from 45,000 years BP of the meager presence of U6 in the population
          before the R1b became ubiquitous and homogenous in the peninsula. The
          presence of Neolithic haplogroups (meaning haplogroups extraneous to
          Iberia and ubiquitous in such places as the purported homeland of the
          Goths where the R1a and I haplogroups and its haplotypes enjoy wide
          distribution) in this sample suggests that their isolation culture was
          not absolute until recent times." Thus the Maragatos may be an
          isolated extant population perhaps the direct descendants of a faction
          of Visigoths that for certain reasons remained separate from the
          surrounding populace. At the moment however, it is too soon to
          disclose much more or arrive at any conclusions as pertains conclusive
          estimates of Visigoth genetic contribution in Iberia. The sampling
          must be completed and all the markers contrasted before conclusions
          are finalized.

          >They also provided to the heritage by leaving customs, sayings, words
          >and other cultural traits. As mentioned, they ruled it and left
          >behind them significant edifications such as churches, monuments
          >etc... and even at least one town(!) such as Reccopolis.

          F.E.J.D. writes:
          Concerning the Goths, Lucien Musset wrote, "…their ensuing prestige
          among other Germans was expressed in the epic tradition for over a
          thousand years". Undoubtedly, the Goths have been an ever-present
          preoccupation in the minds of some Europeans since the beginning of
          modern Europe.

          Lastly Leonardo, Do not let others dissuade you from learning about
          your Gothic heritage. The truth is that the Visigoths are simply and
          undeniably an important part of Spanish history and part of the
          Spanish populace. Those that would have you think otherwise by mere
          opinion are sure to be uninformed or simply ignorant of history or
          have sinister ulterior motives for doing so.

          Cheers,
          Frithunanths.
          (Fernando Elatheus Jiménez-Díaz)
        • faltin2001
          ... that ... Spanish ... in ... spark ... your ... others. ... scholarship ... inadequately ... Iberian ... You mean the Clades Variana in 9AD? the Cherusci
          Message 4 of 28 , May 27, 2004
            --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, F. E. Jiménez Díaz <visigoth@a...>
            wrote:
            > Hello Leonardo,
            > I missed seeing your post for an entire week, but I'm quite glad
            that
            > I stumbled on to it this morning.
            > Welcome back to the Gothic-L.
            > I am glad to read of your interest in the Visigoths of the Spanish
            > Gothia.
            >
            > >--- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Leonardo Frithunanths
            > ><frithunanths_scandza@y...> >wrote:
            > >
            > >Hails Allum!
            > >
            > >After an absence of 3 years I've returned to this list, and
            > apparently nothing much has >changed around here, thank God. :)
            > >
            > >I would like to make comment on what Oscargoth once wrote.
            > >But regarding a possible division where one part would speak
            Spanish
            > >and another one gothic, well, I'm not very much into the 'good old'
            > >"Divide and conquer/rule" system, I think that we've seen too much
            > >of that throughout history.
            > >But I'm most definitely positive to that idea of awakening the
            > >Spanish people into the knowledge of their glorious legacy,
            >
            > F.E.J.D writes:
            > Leonardo, I think the idea of offering Spaniards more exposure to
            > their Gothic heritage, language and culture is an interesting cause
            > especially since at present there is a great resurgence of interest
            in
            > those very things, however, I am convinced that what you state can
            > best be accomplished by allowing your interest and enthusiasm to
            spark
            > the same interest and enthusiasm in those around you. Get involved
            > yourself and do not count on anyone else. In addition, along with
            your
            > interest, you must also be ready to supply cogent, meaningful and
            > relevant content that will make the undertaking reasonable to
            others.
            > Therefore, read voraciously, learn and contrast the differing points
            > of view and become well rounded in as many aspects of that
            scholarship
            > as you can.
            > It is quite true that knowing one's history can be an enriching and
            > positive life changing experience. It informs our worldview, and
            > allows us to imbue with value the things that we ordinarily take for
            > granted. It also tends to ground us in the consensus of knowledge
            > concerning such matters so that we are not fooled by the
            inadequately
            > informed and/or purposely misleading opinions of other individuals.
            >
            > >the Visigoths, successors of the Romans and defenders of the
            Iberian
            > >Peninsula.
            >
            > F.E.J.D. writes:
            > I am also of the opinion that the Visigoths WERE able defenders of
            > their people as the Clades Variana



            You mean 'the' Clades Variana in 9AD? the Cherusci (not Visigoths)
            against the Romans?








            and other subsequent battles inform
            > us. Like you, I believe that they continued to defend their people
            and
            > homeland in Gothispania.



            What is Gothispania?









            > They subdued the Vandals, Suebi, Byzantines



            The defeated both Vandals and Suebi in their capacity as Roman
            federate troops, and spend decades battling with the Byzantines.









            > and turned away the advances of the Franks and other menacing
            > elements.




            Like in 507AD? In 507 the Visigoths were defeated decisively by the
            Franks and forced to retreat to Spain.









            Nonetheless, human frailty is always at work. Unfortunately,
            > the success of the Moorish invasion can be attributed to certain
            > Visigoth factions that conspired with certain other religious and/or
            > ethnic elements whom the Visigoths had oppressed under Sisebut
            (among
            > others). The latter elements allowed the passage of the Moors into
            > Spain while Roderick was quelling an insurrection in the Basque
            > highlands. By the time Roderick received the news, made retreat,
            > resupplied, tasked his generals and arrived to do battle, the Moors
            > had penetrated well into the south and were rested, rehearsed in
            their
            > tactics and ready to wage war. The ensuing death of Roderick put the
            > Visigoths into disarray but the Visigoths managed, to delay the
            > Moorish advance for some months and to keep them from taking the
            > territories in the northern mountains, the latter allowed the time
            and
            > space to let a great host of nobles and warriors and their families
            to
            > take refuge there.



            Where did you take that from? Most Visigothic nobles had no reason to
            abandon their estates, because the Moors were mostly glad to let them
            stay on as owners.








            > Thereafter, they were successful in keeping the
            > Moors from taking those areas.



            It was probably mostly the typically independent minded mountain
            people who kept the Muslims out. The Muslims would probably have been
            able to take the regions, but they had to content with uprisings of
            Berbers, draught etc.







            > Those that remained in Moorish occupied
            > lands did not fare as well.




            Most seemed to have fared very well among the Muslims, marring into
            Muslim families, retaining their estates.












            The latter were subjected to extremely
            > high taxes, curtailed freedoms, certain religious oppressions and
            even
            > a yearly territorial tribute of 100 virgins "having blue eyes and
            > golden hair" who were subjected to "forcible rape" in the caliph's
            > harems. Fortunately, the latter practice was eliminated within a
            short
            > time after a great revolt ensued.



            This sounds very much like a propaganda story. Sources?







            Such revolt and resistance to the
            > Moors was revelatory of the things to come. As regards conditions
            and
            > relations under the Moors, John Crow states, "Quite unlike the
            > Visigoths, the Moors were never able effectively to establish their
            > dominion over Catholic Spain. By the eleventh century the battle
            lines
            > between the two religions were clearly drawn, and by the thirteenth
            > century (only the southern parts of Iberia were yet occupied by the
            > Moors, [mine]) these lines had become a part of the national folk
            and
            > literary tradition. Hence, the particular and very Christian point
            of
            > view, which comes across to us from the ballads about Rodereik, a
            > feeble monarch who had been turned into a national legend, indicates
            > to us how oral tradition faithfully caught and reflected the
            > polarization of Spanish resistance to Islam (sic), (Crow, 1985).
            Here
            > I make two points. 1). Even after the defeat at Guadalete,
            resistance
            > to the invaders was consistently demonstrated. 2). Despite the
            defeat
            > at Guadalete (which must NOT be seen as an end to Visigothic
            identity)
            > the exiled Visigoths in the mountains of Asturias (quite aware of
            > their duty to defend) remained steadfast in protecting their people
            > and homeland. In fact, only seven years after the Moorish invasion a
            > horde of nobles and warriors, the great majority being Visigoths
            from
            > the previous Toledan kingdom or their direct descendants (commanded
            > under Pelagius - grandson of Reccesvinth),




            Pelagius' identity is mostly unkown. That he was grandson of
            Reccesvind is speculation at best.







            successfully expelled
            > Munuza, the Moorish provincial governor from the footsteps of the
            > northern highlands. Thereafter, the defeat of Alkama at Covadonga
            > sealed the beginning of the 700-year long but eventually successful
            > struggle of the Reconquista. Thus, the origins of the Reconquista
            > itself can be attributed to Pelagius, Reccesvinth's grandson who by
            > example in leadership and political savvy was able to lead the
            remnant
            > Visigoths and amalgamate the forces of the Vascones and Celtic
            people
            > of Galicia and Asturias against the Moorish enemy. The latter was
            the
            > only way that massive enough forces could successfully be mustered
            > against the enemy. It is important to note that after Covadonga and
            > after all Moorish forces were expelled from northern Spain the
            council
            > of Albelda (822CE) records NOT CHURCH LEADERS or some other
            vicarious
            > entity but Alfons II (great-great-great-grandson of Visigothic King
            > Reccared instituting






            To get from Alfons II to Reccared, you probably need a couple for
            more 'great-greats-'. Also, the exact decend of Reccared is not
            clear. Such claims to great ancestry should be seen mostly as
            political statements rather than geneological accuracy.







            OMNEM GOTORUM ORDINEM SICUT TOLETO FUERAT - THE
            > WHOLE ORGANIZATION OF THE GOTHS JUST AS IT WAS AT TOLEDO. What needs
            > to be understood here is that the singular defeat at Guadalete
            > (especially under its particular circumstances) cannot define and
            > fault a lack of resolve on the part of the Visigoths to defend
            person
            > and homeland. Rather, it is evident in the above stated events that
            > there was a continuation and affirmation of Visigothic identity by
            the
            > descendents of Visigoths in the royal lineage, nobility and warrior
            > ranks while exiled in Asturias as well as a resolve to defend person
            > and homeland (especially against the Moorish invaders) for centuries
            > well after 711.




            I think this is mostly a recreated identity. Gothic identity in Spain
            was vanishing already in the course of the 7th century under
            Visighothic rule. The various council documents show that the Goths
            regarded themselves as Hispanics already at that time.







            >
            > >This glorious, highly intelligent and also from a
            cultural/religious
            > >point of view, interesting people –cut-
            >
            > F.E.J.D. writes:
            > Leonardo, I am convinced that all humans are relatively intelligent;
            > also, the word glorious is too subjective here and must be embraced
            as
            > a matter of opinion. Nonetheless the Visigoths must be commended for
            > learning to survive against great odds, their incredible journey
            > through almost an entire continent, their conquests; legal codes,
            > artistic and architectural endeavors which devised the forerunner to
            > Romanesque architecture and the flying buttress as well as their
            > relentless pursuit for liberty, their contribution to the
            preservation
            > of certain Germanic and Roman institutions through a thoughtful
            > synthesis of each other's ideas and most importantly, the mysterious
            > glue that held all of the latter and their people together through
            so
            > much hardship for so many years. --- Wow! No wonder we are still
            > asking questions about them…




            Now you are surprised about their greatness and glory yourself aren't
            you? ;-) I wonder how any human being on earth can compare to the
            mighty, intelligent, thoughtfull, glorious master race of the
            Visigoths?



            >
            > >who in modern times have most often been blemished by far too many
            > >people(specially from the church...).
            >
            > F.E.J.D. writes:
            > Leonardo, (Very Broadly) it seems (in Spain) there have been two
            > ideological camps as concerns the Visigoths. One camp sees them
            > generally as having made positive contributions; it weighs their
            pros
            > and cons in a relatively balanced way. The other - realizes their
            > contributions but in the end sees them as uncouth barbarian
            > interlopers that destroyed the primacy of Roman civilization. The
            > latter I attribute to certain historical biases found in the
            faculties
            > of certain universities. They tend to worship everything Roman and
            > chafe when dealing with Germanic contributions. They fail to see
            that
            > what the Visigoth's accomplished is part of their very loins.
            > Fortunately it is a minority view. Nonetheless, as has been already
            > stated the Germanic contribution be it genetic, artistic or
            > intellectual is inescapable.
            >





            At least their genetic contribution to modern Spaniards will have
            been rather minute.

            Before you can even start to understand the contribution of the
            Visigoths to the hisotry and culture of the Spanish peninsula, I
            think you have to drop all this partiotic glorification. The truth,
            as often, lies somewhere between your wishful thinking and those who
            discount everything non-Roman.

            Certainly, the Visigoths had to overcome great difficulties. After
            king Euric, they were cast into disarray. Chased from Gaul by the
            Franks and remaining so weak that the Ostrogoths had to run Spain for
            them for a while. Much of the 6th century Visigothic reign remained
            chaotic. Only at the very end of the 6th century do we see a
            resurgens of Visigothic kingship in Spain. Their conversion to
            Catholicism at the time was certainly helpful, but they nontheless
            failed to rally the Spanish population as a whole. Large parts of
            Spanish society, including many Visigothic nobles prefered foreign
            rule to that of their own kings, which inevitably led to the
            catastroph in 711.


            Cheers
            Dirk
          • faltin2001
            ... the ... There is so much wrong with this text that I point out only a few things. The Visigoths were certainly not the largest of all Germanic tribes.
            Message 5 of 28 , May 27, 2004
              >
              > F.E.J.D. writes:
              > Presently Leonardo, genetic haplotyping has minimized the inaccuracy
              > of population studies, which relied solely on historical data,
              > craniometry and typology and other circuitous and highly
              > interpretational methods. No longer do we have to accept unreliable
              > and/or sometimes "ulterior" subjective opinions on such things as
              the
              > genetic contribution of people groups such as Visigoths (the largest
              > of ALL Germanic tribes)




              There is so much wrong with this text that I point out only a few
              things. The Visigoths were certainly not the largest of all Germanic
              tribes. Franks, Saxons, Alamannians, Anglo-Saxons, Bavarians and the
              North Germanic peoples were all much larger than the Visigoths.












              to the Spanish population. Simply by
              > understanding, contrasting and comparing the relevant haplogroups
              and
              > haplotypes within a given population one is able to tell if there
              has
              > been any extraneous admixture. It is interesting however that before
              > there was haplotyping it had been thought (quite correctly) by many
              > scholars, (including Bury), that the Visigoths numbered
              approximately
              > 300,000 in a peninsula of (at the time)






              This is likely far to high a number. More like 100,000 perhaps more
              and many of them were, according to the historical sources, hangers
              on. Runaway Roman peasants, slaves, Roman mine workers and so on, who
              joined the Visigoths on their way to Spain.







              [3,500,000 inhabitants
              > (Kenneth W. Harl, Tulane U. 1998)]. Likewise, (Stanley Payne, 1973)
              > concluded that the same number existed after the time of Alaric II
              > (484-507); a ratio of (11.66) to (1). The later ratio is in fact
              close
              > to the present ratio of African-Americans to European Americans in
              the
              > U.S, a sizable element in the overall population. Even so, it is
              > further thought that despite pressures from disease etc; the
              > Visigothic law of "thirds", (where 2/3 of each Hispano-Roman villa
              was
              > confiscated by Visigoths), would have given the Visigoths a greater
              > advantage in increasing their numbers, that, since the ability to
              > raise comestibles by having more land and better soils would have
              > favored Visigoth families over those who had poor soil and less land
              > and could not raise as much food. Furthermore, by projecting the
              > previous trend to 711CE (a period of some 200 years) it is quite
              > conceivable that the Visigoths could have narrowed the previously
              > stated ratio to as little as 10 to 1. You must also notice that I
              have
              > not factored-in other people Germanic people already in the
              peninsula,
              > they are simply not included as part of the Visigothic population,
              > namely the Suebi, which probably numbered around 80,000, and the
              > remnant Vandals that remained in Spain or returned to the Balearic
              > Islands and elsewhere after their ruinous mission to the south,
              > however these were probably few. – Nonetheless, underpinning the
              best
              > estimate of Visigoth admixture in Spain is the presence of suspect
              > genetic signatures in the Y-chromosome and/or mtDNA of extant
              > individuals where an inference may be made. The latter is in the
              > process of being collected from the extant populations of (Spain,
              > Pomerania, Gotland, and Southern Sweden as well as other suspected
              > homelands.






              One cannot, but smile and shake ones head at such nonsense.
              I am sure you will succeed in calculating the Spanish into a Germanic
              people, strange only that most of them just don't look the part;-)

              Dirk
            • Jorge Alexandre S G
              It was very comforting to read this superb and scientifically based posting, which clears up the other one which arrogantly belittled the Visigothic
              Message 6 of 28 , May 27, 2004
                It was very comforting to read this superb and scientifically based posting, which clears up the other one which arrogantly belittled the Visigothic contribution to the Iberic Peninsula. It seems that many scholars nowadays are actually politically biased ,which shows in itself the great danger of science being seen as truely neutral, as I once learned when I took one year of Social Sciences ,cause its objectivity is only an ideal,its being highly influenced by many subjective and political reasons.
                Congratulations mr Díaz, you are a true sage .
                Jorge Alexandre

                F. E. Jiménez Díaz <visigoth@...> wrote:
                Hello Leonardo,
                I missed seeing your post for an entire week, but I'm quite glad that
                I stumbled on to it this morning.
                Welcome back to the Gothic-L.
                I am glad to read of your interest in the Visigoths of the Spanish
                Gothia.

                >--- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Leonardo Frithunanths
                ><frithunanths_scandza@y...> >wrote:
                >
                >Hails Allum!
                >
                >After an absence of 3 years I've returned to this list, and
                apparently nothing much has >changed around here, thank God. :)
                >
                >I would like to make comment on what Oscargoth once wrote.
                >But regarding a possible division where one part would speak Spanish
                >and another one gothic, well, I'm not very much into the 'good old'
                >"Divide and conquer/rule" system, I think that we've seen too much
                >of that throughout history.
                >But I'm most definitely positive to that idea of awakening the
                >Spanish people into the knowledge of their glorious legacy,

                F.E.J.D writes:
                Leonardo, I think the idea of offering Spaniards more exposure to
                their Gothic heritage, language and culture is an interesting cause
                especially since at present there is a great resurgence of interest in
                those very things, however, I am convinced that what you state can
                best be accomplished by allowing your interest and enthusiasm to spark
                the same interest and enthusiasm in those around you. Get involved
                yourself and do not count on anyone else. In addition, along with your
                interest, you must also be ready to supply cogent, meaningful and
                relevant content that will make the undertaking reasonable to others.
                Therefore, read voraciously, learn and contrast the differing points
                of view and become well rounded in as many aspects of that scholarship
                as you can.
                It is quite true that knowing one's history can be an enriching and
                positive life changing experience. It informs our worldview, and
                allows us to imbue with value the things that we ordinarily take for
                granted. It also tends to ground us in the consensus of knowledge
                concerning such matters so that we are not fooled by the inadequately
                informed and/or purposely misleading opinions of other individuals.

                >the Visigoths, successors of the Romans and defenders of the Iberian
                >Peninsula.

                F.E.J.D. writes:
                I am also of the opinion that the Visigoths WERE able defenders of
                their people as the Clades Variana and other subsequent battles inform
                us. Like you, I believe that they continued to defend their people and
                homeland in Gothispania. They subdued the Vandals, Suebi, Byzantines
                and turned away the advances of the Franks and other menacing
                elements. Nonetheless, human frailty is always at work. Unfortunately,
                the success of the Moorish invasion can be attributed to certain
                Visigoth factions that conspired with certain other religious and/or
                ethnic elements whom the Visigoths had oppressed under Sisebut (among
                others). The latter elements allowed the passage of the Moors into
                Spain while Roderick was quelling an insurrection in the Basque
                highlands. By the time Roderick received the news, made retreat,
                resupplied, tasked his generals and arrived to do battle, the Moors
                had penetrated well into the south and were rested, rehearsed in their
                tactics and ready to wage war. The ensuing death of Roderick put the
                Visigoths into disarray but the Visigoths managed, to delay the
                Moorish advance for some months and to keep them from taking the
                territories in the northern mountains, the latter allowed the time and
                space to let a great host of nobles and warriors and their families to
                take refuge there. Thereafter, they were successful in keeping the
                Moors from taking those areas. Those that remained in Moorish occupied
                lands did not fare as well. The latter were subjected to extremely
                high taxes, curtailed freedoms, certain religious oppressions and even
                a yearly territorial tribute of 100 virgins "having blue eyes and
                golden hair" who were subjected to "forcible rape" in the caliph's
                harems. Fortunately, the latter practice was eliminated within a short
                time after a great revolt ensued. Such revolt and resistance to the
                Moors was revelatory of the things to come. As regards conditions and
                relations under the Moors, John Crow states, "Quite unlike the
                Visigoths, the Moors were never able effectively to establish their
                dominion over Catholic Spain. By the eleventh century the battle lines
                between the two religions were clearly drawn, and by the thirteenth
                century (only the southern parts of Iberia were yet occupied by the
                Moors, [mine]) these lines had become a part of the national folk and
                literary tradition. Hence, the particular and very Christian point of
                view, which comes across to us from the ballads about Rodereik, a
                feeble monarch who had been turned into a national legend, indicates
                to us how oral tradition faithfully caught and reflected the
                polarization of Spanish resistance to Islam (sic), (Crow, 1985). Here
                I make two points. 1). Even after the defeat at Guadalete, resistance
                to the invaders was consistently demonstrated. 2). Despite the defeat
                at Guadalete (which must NOT be seen as an end to Visigothic identity)
                the exiled Visigoths in the mountains of Asturias (quite aware of
                their duty to defend) remained steadfast in protecting their people
                and homeland. In fact, only seven years after the Moorish invasion a
                horde of nobles and warriors, the great majority being Visigoths from
                the previous Toledan kingdom or their direct descendants (commanded
                under Pelagius - grandson of Reccesvinth), successfully expelled
                Munuza, the Moorish provincial governor from the footsteps of the
                northern highlands. Thereafter, the defeat of Alkama at Covadonga
                sealed the beginning of the 700-year long but eventually successful
                struggle of the Reconquista. Thus, the origins of the Reconquista
                itself can be attributed to Pelagius, Reccesvinth's grandson who by
                example in leadership and political savvy was able to lead the remnant
                Visigoths and amalgamate the forces of the Vascones and Celtic people
                of Galicia and Asturias against the Moorish enemy. The latter was the
                only way that massive enough forces could successfully be mustered
                against the enemy. It is important to note that after Covadonga and
                after all Moorish forces were expelled from northern Spain the council
                of Albelda (822CE) records NOT CHURCH LEADERS or some other vicarious
                entity but Alfons II (great-great-great-grandson of Visigothic King
                Reccared instituting OMNEM GOTORUM ORDINEM SICUT TOLETO FUERAT - THE
                WHOLE ORGANIZATION OF THE GOTHS JUST AS IT WAS AT TOLEDO. What needs
                to be understood here is that the singular defeat at Guadalete
                (especially under its particular circumstances) cannot define and
                fault a lack of resolve on the part of the Visigoths to defend person
                and homeland. Rather, it is evident in the above stated events that
                there was a continuation and affirmation of Visigothic identity by the
                descendents of Visigoths in the royal lineage, nobility and warrior
                ranks while exiled in Asturias as well as a resolve to defend person
                and homeland (especially against the Moorish invaders) for centuries
                well after 711.

                >This glorious, highly intelligent and also from a cultural/religious
                >point of view, interesting people –cut-

                F.E.J.D. writes:
                Leonardo, I am convinced that all humans are relatively intelligent;
                also, the word glorious is too subjective here and must be embraced as
                a matter of opinion. Nonetheless the Visigoths must be commended for
                learning to survive against great odds, their incredible journey
                through almost an entire continent, their conquests; legal codes,
                artistic and architectural endeavors which devised the forerunner to
                Romanesque architecture and the flying buttress as well as their
                relentless pursuit for liberty, their contribution to the preservation
                of certain Germanic and Roman institutions through a thoughtful
                synthesis of each other's ideas and most importantly, the mysterious
                glue that held all of the latter and their people together through so
                much hardship for so many years. --- Wow! No wonder we are still
                asking questions about them…

                >who in modern times have most often been blemished by far too many
                >people(specially from the church...).

                F.E.J.D. writes:
                Leonardo, (Very Broadly) it seems (in Spain) there have been two
                ideological camps as concerns the Visigoths. One camp sees them
                generally as having made positive contributions; it weighs their pros
                and cons in a relatively balanced way. The other - realizes their
                contributions but in the end sees them as uncouth barbarian
                interlopers that destroyed the primacy of Roman civilization. The
                latter I attribute to certain historical biases found in the faculties
                of certain universities. They tend to worship everything Roman and
                chafe when dealing with Germanic contributions. They fail to see that
                what the Visigoth's accomplished is part of their very loins.
                Fortunately it is a minority view. Nonetheless, as has been already
                stated the Germanic contribution be it genetic, artistic or
                intellectual is inescapable.

                >For me it seems extremely reasonable to do all this (except for the
                >division of Spain) considering the following things:
                >In Spain there's today a growing awareness of their celtic heritage,
                >very much expressed in e.g newly founded cultural groups and feasts.
                >Euskera needs no further introduction considering the great
                >importance that it already enjoys in today's Northern Spain.
                >Regarding Iberian, well.. very little is known still today about this
                >ancient language and apparently those who understand it, even a
                >little bit, are all scientists or amateur scientists. Arabic is
                >taught in Spain at several Institutions and besides, today's spanish
                >urban citizens have a close contact with them and their culture
                >considering the vast amount of arabic inmigrants that live in Spain
                >today.

                >Latin and the cultures that it spawned has, is and will most
                >definitely always be taught at schools, universities and other
                >institutions throughout Spain.

                >It therefore leaves us with the Gothic discourse. As people in Spain
                >are taught in history about the Romans, La Reconquista and the
                >Moors(+ the very, very little that is also taught about the Iberians,
                >Basques, Greeks, Phoenicians, Celts/Celtiberians, Alans and the
                >Germanic tribes).

                F.E.J.D. writes:
                Leonardo, the latter is part of the bias that I just explained.

                >Spanish is being taught, as well as other languages which have
                >nothing much to do with the Peninsula such as English or French. Why
                >can't Gothic be taught then?


                F.E.J.D. writes:
                Interestingly, Leonardo, I know of someone who is in the process of
                home schooling his children and he and his wife have been teaching
                them Old English and Gothic. The children are incredibly bright and
                have already mastered several known languages. In my own experience,
                language is best learned at an early age, and as I found out while
                taking the course anthropological linguistics during my baccalaureate,
                it develops our "metalinguistic awareness", which further serves us in
                attaining mastery over yet other languages. -- Nonetheless Leonardo,
                language is only part of the whole; a comprehensive understanding of
                the Goths and Visigoths as well as other relevant Germanic tribes must
                encompass all aspects of those cultures. To that end I wonder if a
                (less passive) forum should be created where members are more actively
                led, engaged, and encouraged to publish and/or discuss good articles
                and anecdotes on relevant Germanic and Gothic/Visigothic languages,
                culture, history, anthropology and all other aspects of relevant
                Germanic and Gothic/Visigothic scholarship. The group should also have
                a web page and also accommodate people posting in other languages.
                Perhaps I'll look into creating such a list myself. My only concern
                would be not to negatively impact this lists member base. I do not
                think it would. Also, my suggestion should not be construed as
                negative criticism of the (Gothic-L). In fact, I corresponded with the
                founders before they created it was the third person to join after the
                owners. Thereafter, I announced this groups formation in "Oldnorsenet"
                (an old defunct forum) and quite a few joined-up forming the group's
                earliest member base. Rather, this list could remain just as it is,
                especially with its strong expertise as concerns questions about the
                Gothic language for which it is an excellent resource and with which
                it is often preoccupied.

                >Considering that they did establish themselves on the Peninsula, they
                >ruled and influenced it forever by mixing themselves with the rest of
                >the population.

                F.E.J.D. writes:
                Presently Leonardo, genetic haplotyping has minimized the inaccuracy
                of population studies, which relied solely on historical data,
                craniometry and typology and other circuitous and highly
                interpretational methods. No longer do we have to accept unreliable
                and/or sometimes "ulterior" subjective opinions on such things as the
                genetic contribution of people groups such as Visigoths (the largest
                of ALL Germanic tribes) to the Spanish population. Simply by
                understanding, contrasting and comparing the relevant haplogroups and
                haplotypes within a given population one is able to tell if there has
                been any extraneous admixture. It is interesting however that before
                there was haplotyping it had been thought (quite correctly) by many
                scholars, (including Bury), that the Visigoths numbered approximately
                300,000 in a peninsula of (at the time) [3,500,000 inhabitants
                (Kenneth W. Harl, Tulane U. 1998)]. Likewise, (Stanley Payne, 1973)
                concluded that the same number existed after the time of Alaric II
                (484-507); a ratio of (11.66) to (1). The later ratio is in fact close
                to the present ratio of African-Americans to European Americans in the
                U.S, a sizable element in the overall population. Even so, it is
                further thought that despite pressures from disease etc; the
                Visigothic law of "thirds", (where 2/3 of each Hispano-Roman villa was
                confiscated by Visigoths), would have given the Visigoths a greater
                advantage in increasing their numbers, that, since the ability to
                raise comestibles by having more land and better soils would have
                favored Visigoth families over those who had poor soil and less land
                and could not raise as much food. Furthermore, by projecting the
                previous trend to 711CE (a period of some 200 years) it is quite
                conceivable that the Visigoths could have narrowed the previously
                stated ratio to as little as 10 to 1. You must also notice that I have
                not factored-in other people Germanic people already in the peninsula,
                they are simply not included as part of the Visigothic population,
                namely the Suebi, which probably numbered around 80,000, and the
                remnant Vandals that remained in Spain or returned to the Balearic
                Islands and elsewhere after their ruinous mission to the south,
                however these were probably few. – Nonetheless, underpinning the best
                estimate of Visigoth admixture in Spain is the presence of suspect
                genetic signatures in the Y-chromosome and/or mtDNA of extant
                individuals where an inference may be made. The latter is in the
                process of being collected from the extant populations of (Spain,
                Pomerania, Gotland, and Southern Sweden as well as other suspected
                homelands. It is also being collected from bone found in known
                Gothic/Visigothic necropoli confirmed during archaeological excavation
                through sartorial fashion, jewelry and other relevant artifacts.
                Unfortunately, this study has been and will be underway for quite
                sometime since it is quite comprehensive and the collection and
                amplification of ancient materials is a slow process and/or has to be
                done with great care and covers such an extensive geographical area.
                Similar but smaller studies have been done by Dr. Brian Sykes to
                estimate the Norse Viking admixture in Britain and Iceland. Dr. Sykes,
                author of the "Seven Daughters of Eve" (a fantastic read that I highly
                recommend).

                [Explanation follows] (During the Last Glacial Maximum, about 18,000
                years ago, the people bearing the R1b haplogroup over wintered in
                Northern Spain (a refugium). After the glacial retreat about 12,000
                years before present, R1b began a migration to the north in large
                numbers and to the east in lesser numbers. "R1b probably arrived in
                Spain from the east some 30,000 years ago among the Paleolithic or
                "old stone age" peoples and is considered to be aboriginal to Europe.
                They absorbed and/or replaced the handful of inhabitants living in
                those areas. R1b is most concentrated in the population of the Basques
                and nearby areas of Northern Spain as well as Wales and western
                Ireland. It is at nearly 100% in those areas likely due to their
                geographical isolation curtailing immigration. In other words, the
                latter populations are among the most homogenous or (unmixed)
                populations in Europe, almost exclusively comprised of the R1b
                haplogroup and having almost no other haplogroup signatures in them.
                Further east R1b attains a distribution of 70% in the Low-countries
                and about 55% in places thought to be the contributing populations of
                the Anglo-Saxon and Danish tribes and also thins-out in its
                northernmost cline- Norway, where it is at 30%. The latter is current
                standard knowledge in the DNA concordances of Europe and well
                supported in a plethora of studies by numerous universities. "Everyone
                who has the R1b is a descendant in the male line from an individual
                known as "the patriarch" since his descendants account for over 40% of
                all the chromosomes of Europe. This haplogroup is characteristic of
                the Basques whose language is probably that of the first R1b, and who
                are genetically the closest to the original R1b population (which
                probably amounted to only a few thousand individuals)." (Source: Dr.
                David Faux). Now Leonardo – In order to contrast the genetic
                Contribution that may have come by way of other groups such as the
                Visigoths against the Spanish population at large, it is important to
                understand the aforementioned, as well as the signatures of nearby
                populations. However, the genetic neighborhood around Spain is either
                very similar (in the case of western France and the British Isles
                declining to the north and east, or radically different such as in the
                case of the populations of Northern Africa which originate from
                distinctly different patrilineages. To that end I include the
                following citations and several of my own findings: 1). "It is now
                understood that the Strait of Gibraltar seems to have acted as a
                strong (although not complete) barrier to gene flow…" (Bosch et al.,
                Am J Hum Genet, 2001) . 2). "The majority of Iberian lineages resemble
                those of central and northern Europe (Richards et al. 1996). 3). "It
                seems therefore that the genetic contribution by the Moorish presence
                in the peninsula, ((which had been considered by some as
                substantial)), (Reyment, 1983)…((has left little trace in the modern
                mtDNA gene pool))." (B. C. Sykes et al. 1996). 4). "The Islamic rule
                of Spain, which began in A.D. 711 and lasted almost 8 centuries, left
                only a minor contribution to the current Iberian Y-chromosome pool."
                (Bertranpetit et al. 1995; Côrte-Real et al. 1996; Pinto et al. 1996;
                Salas et al. 1998). In fact Leonardo, signatures from other
                populations only appear as tiny fractions of the Spanish population.
                For example, haplogroup U6 (A Berber signature) is only found at very
                low frequencies: 5). …"it has been found in 3 of 196 Portuguese and 2
                of 96 Galicians"… In view of the latter "MEAGER" contribution I am
                always bewildered why certain individuals who's knowledge about Spain
                or molecular anthropology is all but nil will go out of their way to
                make it seem that Spain's genetic makeup is largely Moorish; that,
                when the latter assertion (as has been shown) is scientifically
                untenable. I can only think it is an ulterior motive. Rather, the
                numbers of Berber lineages have several very good explanations. 1).
                The presence of U6 is an extremely ancient contribution dating to
                45,000YBP. This haplotype originated in western Asia and a handful of
                these individuals migrated to an almost empty Iberia just before the
                R1b haplogroup arrived there. Thus, many U6 signatures are echoes of
                an ancient handful of individuals living in Iberia prior to the LGM
                (last glacial maximum). 2). Depending on genetic distance it could
                also be the signature left over from the previously stated "tribute of
                Virgins" which took place in the areas where the U6 haplogroup is
                found). [Explanation]: It is well known that some of the women taken
                were returned to their families, either by the payment of ransom or
                during the rebellion of the local Christians (who found the practice
                intolerable). Some of the women had already been raped. Thus, it is
                very plausible since the "U6 signature is completely absent from all
                Andalusians tested and again absent in 162 other Iberians comprising
                the statistical population (5). (Bertranpetit et al. 1995; Côrte-Real
                et al. 1996; Pinto et al. 1996; Salas et al. 1998), and yet present in
                areas where the tribute took place that it is related to a genetic
                contribution through the raped victims. There is yet a further
                explanation. There is curious anecdotal and historical evidence as
                concerns the populace in the stated area, which does not come as a
                surprise to those of us that have invested considerable time studying
                the Spanish populace. Here I mean the "Maragatos", or Moorish-Goths.
                The latter are well attested in an old article by George Borrow
                (1803-1881) a British evangelist and travel writer of that time.
                (Please see the University of Adelaide Library Electronic Texts
                Collection.) Borrow states, "The Maragatos are perhaps the most
                singular caste to be found amongst the checquered population of Spain.
                They have their own peculiar customs and dress, and never intermarry
                with the Spaniards…There can be little doubt that they are a remnant
                of those Goths who sided with the Moors on their invasion of Spain,
                and who adopted their customs, and manner of dress, which, with the
                exception of the first, are still to a considerable degree retained by
                them. It is, however, evident that their blood has at no time mingled
                with that of the wild children of the desert, for scarcely amongst the
                hills of Norway would you find figures and faces more essentially
                Gothic than those of the Maragatos. They are strong athletic men, but
                loutish and heavy, and their features, though for the most part well
                formed, are vacant and devoid of expression. They are slow and plain
                of speech, and those eloquent and imaginative sallies so common in the
                conversation of other Spaniards, seldom or never escape them; they
                have, moreover, a coarse thick pronunciation, and when you hear them
                speak, you almost imagine that it is some German or English peasant
                attempting to express himself in the language of the Peninsula
                (Borrow, 1840)" The latter is obviously only anecdotal, however,
                recent findings have shed great scientific light on the Maragatos. In
                the new study; Mitochondrial DNA characterization of European
                isolates: the Maragatos from Spain, (Larruga JM, Diez F, Pinto et al.)
                their uniqueness becomes clear. The study states; Mitochondrial DNA
                analysis confirms that Maragatos from Spain are a genetically isolated
                human group. Genetic distances between Maragatos and the comparison
                samples are significantly different even with the Leon sample
                (P<0.001), which shares the same geographic area as the Maragatos.
                Although the north-African haplogroup U6 is present in them, their
                attributed Berber origin is weakened, as this haplogroup is also
                detected in surrounding populations with which, in addition, Maragatos
                have the smaller genetic distances." The later only a vestige echo
                from 45,000 years BP of the meager presence of U6 in the population
                before the R1b became ubiquitous and homogenous in the peninsula. The
                presence of Neolithic haplogroups (meaning haplogroups extraneous to
                Iberia and ubiquitous in such places as the purported homeland of the
                Goths where the R1a and I haplogroups and its haplotypes enjoy wide
                distribution) in this sample suggests that their isolation culture was
                not absolute until recent times." Thus the Maragatos may be an
                isolated extant population perhaps the direct descendants of a faction
                of Visigoths that for certain reasons remained separate from the
                surrounding populace. At the moment however, it is too soon to
                disclose much more or arrive at any conclusions as pertains conclusive
                estimates of Visigoth genetic contribution in Iberia. The sampling
                must be completed and all the markers contrasted before conclusions
                are finalized.

                >They also provided to the heritage by leaving customs, sayings, words
                >and other cultural traits. As mentioned, they ruled it and left
                >behind them significant edifications such as churches, monuments
                >etc... and even at least one town(!) such as Reccopolis.

                F.E.J.D. writes:
                Concerning the Goths, Lucien Musset wrote, "…their ensuing prestige
                among other Germans was expressed in the epic tradition for over a
                thousand years". Undoubtedly, the Goths have been an ever-present
                preoccupation in the minds of some Europeans since the beginning of
                modern Europe.

                Lastly Leonardo, Do not let others dissuade you from learning about
                your Gothic heritage. The truth is that the Visigoths are simply and
                undeniably an important part of Spanish history and part of the
                Spanish populace. Those that would have you think otherwise by mere
                opinion are sure to be uninformed or simply ignorant of history or
                have sinister ulterior motives for doing so.

                Cheers,
                Frithunanths.
                (Fernando Elatheus Jiménez-Díaz)




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              • cheyenne nicole
                faltin2001 wrote: hey everyone....I won t be on the computer for a while. so if i don t respond to anything you guys send me its not
                Message 7 of 28 , May 28, 2004
                  faltin2001 <dirk@...> wrote:> hey everyone....I won't be on the computer for a while. so if i don't respond to anything you guys send me its not because i'm rude. Bye Have fun!
                  > F.E.J.D. writes:
                  > Presently Leonardo, genetic haplotyping has minimized the inaccuracy
                  > of population studies, which relied solely on historical data,
                  > craniometry and typology and other circuitous and highly
                  > interpretational methods. No longer do we have to accept unreliable
                  > and/or sometimes "ulterior" subjective opinions on such things as
                  the
                  > genetic contribution of people groups such as Visigoths (the largest
                  > of ALL Germanic tribes)




                  There is so much wrong with this text that I point out only a few
                  things. The Visigoths were certainly not the largest of all Germanic
                  tribes. Franks, Saxons, Alamannians, Anglo-Saxons, Bavarians and the
                  North Germanic peoples were all much larger than the Visigoths.












                  to the Spanish population. Simply by
                  > understanding, contrasting and comparing the relevant haplogroups
                  and
                  > haplotypes within a given population one is able to tell if there
                  has
                  > been any extraneous admixture. It is interesting however that before
                  > there was haplotyping it had been thought (quite correctly) by many
                  > scholars, (including Bury), that the Visigoths numbered
                  approximately
                  > 300,000 in a peninsula of (at the time)






                  This is likely far to high a number. More like 100,000 perhaps more
                  and many of them were, according to the historical sources, hangers
                  on. Runaway Roman peasants, slaves, Roman mine workers and so on, who
                  joined the Visigoths on their way to Spain.







                  [3,500,000 inhabitants
                  > (Kenneth W. Harl, Tulane U. 1998)]. Likewise, (Stanley Payne, 1973)
                  > concluded that the same number existed after the time of Alaric II
                  > (484-507); a ratio of (11.66) to (1). The later ratio is in fact
                  close
                  > to the present ratio of African-Americans to European Americans in
                  the
                  > U.S, a sizable element in the overall population. Even so, it is
                  > further thought that despite pressures from disease etc; the
                  > Visigothic law of "thirds", (where 2/3 of each Hispano-Roman villa
                  was
                  > confiscated by Visigoths), would have given the Visigoths a greater
                  > advantage in increasing their numbers, that, since the ability to
                  > raise comestibles by having more land and better soils would have
                  > favored Visigoth families over those who had poor soil and less land
                  > and could not raise as much food. Furthermore, by projecting the
                  > previous trend to 711CE (a period of some 200 years) it is quite
                  > conceivable that the Visigoths could have narrowed the previously
                  > stated ratio to as little as 10 to 1. You must also notice that I
                  have
                  > not factored-in other people Germanic people already in the
                  peninsula,
                  > they are simply not included as part of the Visigothic population,
                  > namely the Suebi, which probably numbered around 80,000, and the
                  > remnant Vandals that remained in Spain or returned to the Balearic
                  > Islands and elsewhere after their ruinous mission to the south,
                  > however these were probably few. � Nonetheless, underpinning the
                  best
                  > estimate of Visigoth admixture in Spain is the presence of suspect
                  > genetic signatures in the Y-chromosome and/or mtDNA of extant
                  > individuals where an inference may be made. The latter is in the
                  > process of being collected from the extant populations of (Spain,
                  > Pomerania, Gotland, and Southern Sweden as well as other suspected
                  > homelands.






                  One cannot, but smile and shake ones head at such nonsense.
                  I am sure you will succeed in calculating the Spanish into a Germanic
                  people, strange only that most of them just don't look the part;-)

                  Dirk





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                  Cheyenne

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                • F. E. Jiménez Díaz
                  My goodness Herr Faltin, My post seems to have made you become unhinged. Please be assured that my intention was not to make you uncomfortable or have you take
                  Message 8 of 28 , May 28, 2004
                    My goodness Herr Faltin,
                    My post seems to have made you become unhinged. Please be assured that
                    my intention was not to make you uncomfortable or have you take a
                    flight of fancy as you have done trying to deconstruct what I have
                    written.
                    Indeed I do hope that we are able to correct one another's mistakes
                    when mistakes are made but we should do so politely and cogently. I do
                    admit that in haste I substituted Varus for Valens but that is all,
                    (very similar names you know) about which you made some hay. Most
                    decent people would have rather politely pointed to the oversight.
                    Even so, though not a historically accepted appellation I will choose
                    to call Alaric's Gothic Victory over Valens, the "Clades Valensiana"
                    (sic).
                    Furthermore, my observation of your comportment stands. - I carefully
                    read through your posts #7601 and 7602. Your efforts were not
                    rebuttals but reactions, so strident, so uninformed and so
                    misrepresentative of ideas that I would not have answered them had I
                    not read to the very end where you make a deliberate ad hominem
                    attack, and even worse, a slur I shall not dignify. You sir, have done
                    great harm to whatever credibility you might have had in these groups.
                    It is also a disservice to the members of this list to demonstrate
                    such unprofessional behavior.

                    I hope everyone will read this and my next post in its entirety and
                    let things stand on their merit. Even so, I am still willing to
                    apologize if my original post made you uncomfortable in any way.

                    And by the way, Also, I am quite aware of your diversionary tactics
                    when challenging someone's ideas. First you immediately discredit
                    their ideas with a cautionary preamble making it seem as though your
                    intellect has detected some heresy and putting them on the defensive.
                    Then you will selectively parse sentences to make things seem what
                    they are not. Then you will insert your opinion where it suits
                    (without giving content or sources) while on the other hand demanding
                    them of everyone else. Lastly you close with dismissive comments that
                    make it appear you are right when in fact many times you have only
                    inserted mere OPINION. ---------- Too bad for you though, the latter
                    seems to work only with people who are not sufficiently aware of
                    history, uncritical of ideas or are in awe of your opinion.

                    I came to this group from ONN "Oldnorsenet" then with my screen name
                    of Frodenand and have been here since the under different screen names
                    as I have changed computers and locations. Interestingly, through that
                    time I have never had to defend myself in this way. I beg the lists
                    apology for having to do it, but I cannot let such insults and
                    baseless assertions stand. I promise that I will not return comments
                    nor mention these matters again after I post my two responses.

                    > > F.E.J.D. writes:
                    > > Presently Leonardo, genetic haplotyping has minimized the inaccuracy
                    > > of population studies, which relied solely on historical data,
                    > > craniometry and typology and other circuitous and highly
                    > > interpretational methods. No longer do we have to accept > >
                    unreliable
                    > > and/or sometimes "ulterior" subjective opinions on such things as
                    > the
                    > > genetic contribution of people groups such as Visigoths (the largest
                    > > of ALL Germanic tribes)
                    >
                    >
                    Faltin writes:
                    >
                    > There is so much wrong with this text that I point out only a few
                    > things. The Visigoths were certainly not the largest of all Germanic
                    > tribes. Franks, Saxons, Alamannians, Anglo-Saxons, Bavarians and the
                    >North Germanic peoples were all much larger than the >Visigoths.

                    F.E.J.D. writes:
                    First of all, please provide sources and content and stop hiding
                    behind your opinion.
                    Give us population numbers and approximate dates with citations for
                    all of the people groups you state.

                    Secondly, it is a matter of historic fact that there were only three
                    sizable Germanic tribes in Iberia (the Visigoths, Vandals and Suebi)
                    and the Visigoths were by far the largest.
                    Actually, people would have read my thought in its correct context had
                    you not snipped the text at the point which you inserted your
                    comments. The way it is snipped and separated by your comments (at mid
                    sentence) is rather convenient though. Is it not?
                    Now that you brought up the "Franks, Saxons, Alamannians,
                    Anglo-Saxons, Bavarians and the North Germanic peoples" as being
                    larger, you must prove the point.
                    Again - give us population numbers and approximate dates with
                    citations for all of the people groups you state. ---- However, you
                    will surely encounter that tribal groups in Europe at the time I cite
                    population numbers for the Visigoths (who's estimated population has
                    some verifiability) are extremely difficult to attain since these
                    purported tribes were extremely amorphous entities having few
                    verifiable geographic delineations, and in an almost constant process
                    of blending in and out of disparate groups. Therefore arriving at
                    meaningful population numbers is extremely difficult. The latter is
                    certainly so for the West Germans, (who were mainly farmers), since
                    certain of the West German tribes we have come to know; the Franks and
                    Saxons, were amalgamations of many smaller people groups having loose
                    ties. The latter is especially true of the Alemanni, the tribal group
                    from which some European states derive their name for the modern state
                    of Germany. The name Aleman simply means "all men" denoting a melting
                    pot of the checkerboard of people sharing similar culture that came to
                    be known as Germany.
                    . The Alemanni were in fact a composite nation formed from the Suevian
                    and other tribes, on the upper Rhine; same goes for the Franks. People
                    on the lower Rhine formed a "loose" conglomerate under that name. In
                    fact, most of the tribes in Central Europe remained largely amorphous
                    and unfocused until quite late, as is the case of the Franks who
                    largely remain that way until just before the time they are reported
                    as harassing the Visigoths.
                    Interestingly, quite often scholars have questioned the extent to
                    which these small tribes were committed to one another or to a larger
                    parent tribe. The only evidence of such is a text of Ammianus
                    Marcellinus that refers to the pactum vicissitudinis redendae, a pact
                    just promising mutual aid; ------- so much, for the cohesiveness of
                    these (great tribes?). It is just mere common sense that tribes could
                    not have had much association with one another or that many large
                    tribes could have existed in the type of dense forests typical in
                    Central Europe at the time and well into the early medieval period.
                    "Bury states that we must picture Germany as consisting of small
                    territories each of which was surrounded by a dense impenetrable ring
                    of primeval forest". That ring of woodland impeded attack from other
                    tribes around them. It is known through archaeological evidence that
                    "tribal groups" existed in small territories that were claimed from
                    these dense woodlands. Small tribes grew into large ones and much,
                    much later into Nation states when these small tribes grew and had to
                    chop down more of the forest for their expansion. The latter allowed
                    small tribes to come into contact with other tribes and to establish
                    some sort of (treaty or understanding) between one another in order to
                    keep war at bay etc. The reason that East German tribes were large is
                    because the geographic and environmental area in which they lived was
                    not densely wooded but rather open and prairie-like and for the most
                    part were not sedentary farmers.
                    (Please see The Invasion of Europe by the Barbarians. Especially pp10.)


                    >
                    >
                    > to the Spanish population. Simply by
                    > > understanding, contrasting and comparing the relevant haplogroups
                    >>and.

                    > > haplotypes within a given population one is able to tell if there
                    > has
                    > > been any extraneous admixture. It is interesting however that before
                    > > there was haplotyping it had been thought (quite correctly) by many
                    > > scholars, that the Visigoths numbered
                    > approximately
                    > > 300,000 in a peninsula of (at the time)
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    Faltin writes:
                    > This is likely far to high a number. More like 100,000 perhaps more
                    > and many of them were, according to the historical sources, hangers
                    > on. Runaway Roman peasants, slaves, Roman mine workers and so on, >
                    > who joined the Visigoths on their way to Spain.
                    >

                    F.E.J.D. writes:
                    There is wide debate in this actual number. I've seen as much as
                    500,000 and as little as 100,000, nonetheless...You AGAIN fail to
                    provide sources and content; this time, in order to substantiate your
                    estimate and the idea that many Visigoths were in fact not from
                    Germanic people groups but rather "hangers on" et al.

                    Here, you are making a point of quantifying (AND QUALIFYING), when it
                    was only necessary to quantify the number of Visigoths. You qualify
                    the types of individuals who joined the Visigoths by emphasizing that
                    "many" of those that joined were Roman and on (what has historically
                    been termed) the margins of society. You do so by using such words as
                    "hangers on" "Slaves", "peasants", "mine workers", etc. On the other
                    hand you avoid using individuals having other estates and occupations,
                    which may have also joined Visigothic ranks. Though it is true that
                    the lower classes openly welcomed the Visigoths. It is also true that
                    you deliberately inserted QUALIFYING criteria when qualifying criteria
                    was not needed. Your insertion of just certain types of estates and
                    occupations is also rather curious since it is extraneous to the
                    question of (how many individuals comprised the Visigoths and then
                    other tribes). The latter makes it appear that you inserted the latter
                    purposely. Furthermore, I can think of no other reason for doing so
                    other that to qualify the types of people that entered Spain.
                    Therefore you selectively make it seem that "many" Visigoths that
                    entered Spain were in fact not the descendants of ethnic Visigoths but
                    rather Romans and slaves, what has historically been considered as the
                    offal of society. Could it be that you would want readers to come away
                    with the idea that the Visigoths that entered Spain were less
                    desirable or somehow tainted by such individuals among their ranks?
                    Could it also be that you would like others to think that the Spanish
                    populace are in part descended from (as you say) "slaves, peasants
                    etc..." If so, let it be. However, your point is absurd, one cannot
                    delineate the Visigoths in such away. Though it is now obvious that
                    they were not all direct descendants of the original people groups
                    that we have come to know as Goths. They were more importantly the
                    originators and representatives of certain ideas that greatly impacted
                    the European world, which is why they are interesting and worthy of
                    study. As such, whatever type of individual joined their ranks matters
                    little. They certainly held together well by culture and language but
                    certainly also by certain ideas that transcended territorial origin,
                    occupation and estate. A good lesson for all of us in this day and age.

                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > [3,500,000 inhabitants
                    > > (Kenneth W. Harl, Tulane U. 1998)]. Likewise, (Stanley Payne, 1973)
                    > > concluded that the same number existed after the time of Alaric II
                    > > (484-507); a ratio of (11.66) to (1). The later ratio is in fact
                    > close
                    > > to the present ratio of African-Americans to European Americans in
                    > the
                    > > U.S, a sizable element in the overall population. Even so, it is
                    > > further thought that despite pressures from disease etc; the
                    > > Visigothic law of "thirds", (where 2/3 of each Hispano-Roman villa
                    > was
                    > > confiscated by Visigoths), would have given the Visigoths a greater
                    > > advantage in increasing their numbers, that, since the ability to
                    > > raise comestibles by having more land and better soils would have
                    > > favored Visigoth families over those who had poor soil and less land
                    > > and could not raise as much food. Furthermore, by projecting the
                    > > previous trend to 711CE (a period of some 200 years) it is quite
                    > > conceivable that the Visigoths could have narrowed the previously
                    > > stated ratio to as little as 10 to 1. You must also notice that I
                    > have
                    > > not factored-in other people Germanic people already in the
                    > peninsula,
                    > > they are simply not included as part of the Visigothic population,
                    > > namely the Suebi, which probably numbered around 80,000, and the
                    > > remnant Vandals that remained in Spain or returned to the Balearic
                    > > Islands and elsewhere after their ruinous mission to the south,
                    > > however these were probably few. – Nonetheless, underpinning the
                    > best
                    > > estimate of Visigoth admixture in Spain is the presence of suspect
                    > > genetic signatures in the Y-chromosome and/or mtDNA of extant
                    > > individuals where an inference may be made. The latter is in the
                    > > process of being collected from the extant populations of (Spain,
                    > > Pomerania, Gotland, and Southern Sweden as well as other suspected
                    > > homelands.
                    >
                    > Faltin writes:
                    >
                    > One cannot, but smile and shake ones head at such nonsense.
                    > I am sure you will succeed in calculating the Spanish into a Germanic
                    > people, strange only that most of them just don't look the part;-)
                    > Dirk

                    F.E.J.D. writes:
                    The last part of my post seems to have made you writhe uncomfortably.
                    I can actually picture you "shaking your head" in disgust.
                    However, I ask myself however, why would you say such things? It is
                    terribly discourteous and unprofessional to behave in such a way
                    towards anyone. If you have disagreements, I suggest you substantiate
                    them (as I have) in an intellectual cogent manner. Instead, you attack
                    me in an ad hominem manner. Such tactics are a sign that you can no
                    longer defend your points through reason.
                    FURTHERMORE:
                    WHAT YOU STATE, (THAT IS), THAT I WILL "SUCCEED IN CALCULATING THE
                    SPANISH INTO A GERMANIC PEOPLE" IS PATENTLY SLANDEROUS TOWARDS ME, MY
                    RESEARCH FELLOWS AND OUR PROFESSIONAL ETHICS. I WOULD ((( NEVER )))
                    WILLINGLY CAUSE AN EXPERIMENT OR STUDY TO SKEW IN ANY DIRECTION. to be
                    ACCUSED OF THAT BY ANYONE IS BEYOND THE PALE.
                    BE ADVICED THAT IF YOU WERE PRESENTLY IN THIS COUNTRY, I WOULD BRING A
                    LAW SUIT AGAINST YOU IMMEDIATELY. OUR CONSTITUTION DOES –NOT- PROTECT
                    SLANDEROUS SPEECH. THUS, BE ADVICED ---- YOUR COMMENTS WERE PATENTLY
                    SLANDEROUS.
                    I ALSO ASK THE MODERATOR TO TAKE NOTICE (SINCE THIS LIST IS IN THE
                    UNITED STATS), I HOPE THAT PROPER ACTION BE BROUGHT AGAINST YOU; NOT
                    ONLY FOR YOUR SLANDEROUS STATEMENTS BUT ALSO FOR YOUR RACIST COMMENTS
                    WHICH HEREAFTER I SHALL MAKE KNOWN. THEY ARE FOUND AT THE END OF YOUR
                    CLOSING.
                    ((( I HOPE EVERYONE HAS PICKED-UP ON THEM)) AND I HOPE THEY ARE ALSO
                    PASSED ON TO THE GERMANIC LIST IN WHICH YOU ARE ALSO A MEMBER.

                    YOUR COMMENTS STATE:
                    >"I am sure you will succeed in calculating the Spanish into a Germanic
                    > people, strange only that most of them just don't look the part;-)
                    > Dirk

                    You end your statement with an emoticon (how mature). Obviously the
                    winking emoticon is meant to be condescending and dismissive of the
                    idea that Spaniards could ever be partly descended from Visigoths. It
                    is purposely meant to be a disparaging remark to all Spaniards and me.
                    Had you stated the same phrase in a scholarly manner it would have
                    been taken as a bonafide question, however, your choice of words
                    followed by the emoticon clearly betray your intentions, it in fact
                    was meant to be clearly derogatory and offensive. EVERYONE - PLEASE
                    TAKE NOTICE!

                    Here, it is plainly evident you think people have to look a certain
                    way in order to be of Germanic ancestry (but how about those
                    individuals of full "Germanic ancestry" that are not the
                    "stereotypical idea" of Germanic, that is blond and blue-eyed)? Take
                    for example Franz Josef Wenzel, the prince of Liechtenstein and so
                    many others. And by the way, just what, in your opinion, do Germanic
                    people have to look like Herr Faltin?
                    ? Please substantiate your opinion ----- However, I suspect that you
                    won't since citing racist or anthropologically discredited literature
                    would immediately give you away and disclose exactly what you are and
                    feel. It is quite clear that you think most Spaniards do not meet your
                    criteria. That is why you constantly chafe every time someone brings
                    up the question of Visigothic descent in the Spanish populace. I say,
                    if one is partly descended from a certain people group then let the
                    genes speak for themselves, but I wonder if "you" would submit to
                    being genotyped? --- I wonder if you would be surprised?
                    You nonetheless, seem to chafe at the very idea that Spaniards are
                    partly descended from Visigoths who inhabited a common homeland. In
                    turn you ascribe to us decent from certain people groups at rates that
                    are not scientifically tenable and that (without sources and content).
                    The proof that you have done so is all over this list's archives. In
                    months past, your answers to me and to other individuals citing
                    anything to do with Visigothic heritage have been consistently
                    UNSUBSTANTIATED and full of negative opinion and dismissive comments.
                    I wonder---- what could be your reasons for doing so?
                    Anthropologically, both of your assertions are patently incorrect and
                    laughable. I will not dignify them with further answers.

                    Quite evidently you have shown your true colors, (pun intended).

                    Lastly, I am only a molecular anthropologist whose only desire is to
                    know how we got here, our descent. That sir is what drives me. The
                    Spanish people are what they are. I have no subjective desire to be or
                    to make others seem what we are not, whether "Germanic" or part of any
                    other people group. The very idea of desiring to be what we are not is
                    quite absurd anyway don't you think? Rather, we search such
                    connections in our genome because humans are curious about the world,
                    because we want to connect to our other fellow humans in profound and
                    intimate ways and because it is potentially expedient from a medical
                    point of view. It is also wonderful that we have such a tool in
                    genetics to let us search our connections and dispel the racist
                    theories and quackery so rampant today. All of us are actually related
                    anyway.

                    Actually I was going to answer Faltin's other post but I will not
                    dignify its contents nor take up this list' s time and bandwidth
                    unless the moderator and a majority feel that I ought to do so.

                    I send this in haste, please pardon grammatical errors and
                    LASTLY; beg the lists pardon for having to write this.

                    Thank you all,
                    F.E.J.D.
                  • F. E. Jiménez Díaz
                    BTW Upon re reading my previous entry I would like to clarify that it was Fritigern at Hadrianople (over Valens), however, somehow I recall that Alaric might
                    Message 9 of 28 , May 28, 2004
                      BTW Upon re reading my previous entry I would like to clarify that it
                      was Fritigern at Hadrianople (over Valens), however, somehow I recall
                      that Alaric might have been one of the Generals. Can someone clarify this?
                      Thanks,
                      F.E.J.D.
                    • OSCAR HERRERA
                      i have family in spain and visit there alot.all i see ia alot of white and german looking people in madrid and other areas as well. there are alot of
                      Message 10 of 28 , May 28, 2004
                        i have family in spain and visit there alot.all i see ia alot of white and german looking people in madrid and other areas as well. there are alot of respectedly alot of meditarranean looking people as well. many western countries have so called different peoples working and living together. we should restrain when it comes to racial differences ,but solving problems that what is right should be everyones goal/

                        F. E. Jim�nez D�az <visigoth@...> wrote:My goodness Herr Faltin,
                        My post seems to have made you become unhinged. Please be assured that
                        my intention was not to make you uncomfortable or have you take a
                        flight of fancy as you have done trying to deconstruct what I have
                        written.
                        Indeed I do hope that we are able to correct one another's mistakes
                        when mistakes are made but we should do so politely and cogently. I do
                        admit that in haste I substituted Varus for Valens but that is all,
                        (very similar names you know) about which you made some hay. Most
                        decent people would have rather politely pointed to the oversight.
                        Even so, though not a historically accepted appellation I will choose
                        to call Alaric's Gothic Victory over Valens, the "Clades Valensiana"
                        (sic).
                        Furthermore, my observation of your comportment stands. - I carefully
                        read through your posts #7601 and 7602. Your efforts were not
                        rebuttals but reactions, so strident, so uninformed and so
                        misrepresentative of ideas that I would not have answered them had I
                        not read to the very end where you make a deliberate ad hominem
                        attack, and even worse, a slur I shall not dignify. You sir, have done
                        great harm to whatever credibility you might have had in these groups.
                        It is also a disservice to the members of this list to demonstrate
                        such unprofessional behavior.

                        I hope everyone will read this and my next post in its entirety and
                        let things stand on their merit. Even so, I am still willing to
                        apologize if my original post made you uncomfortable in any way.

                        And by the way, Also, I am quite aware of your diversionary tactics
                        when challenging someone's ideas. First you immediately discredit
                        their ideas with a cautionary preamble making it seem as though your
                        intellect has detected some heresy and putting them on the defensive.
                        Then you will selectively parse sentences to make things seem what
                        they are not. Then you will insert your opinion where it suits
                        (without giving content or sources) while on the other hand demanding
                        them of everyone else. Lastly you close with dismissive comments that
                        make it appear you are right when in fact many times you have only
                        inserted mere OPINION. ---------- Too bad for you though, the latter
                        seems to work only with people who are not sufficiently aware of
                        history, uncritical of ideas or are in awe of your opinion.

                        I came to this group from ONN "Oldnorsenet" then with my screen name
                        of Frodenand and have been here since the under different screen names
                        as I have changed computers and locations. Interestingly, through that
                        time I have never had to defend myself in this way. I beg the lists
                        apology for having to do it, but I cannot let such insults and
                        baseless assertions stand. I promise that I will not return comments
                        nor mention these matters again after I post my two responses.

                        > > F.E.J.D. writes:
                        > > Presently Leonardo, genetic haplotyping has minimized the inaccuracy
                        > > of population studies, which relied solely on historical data,
                        > > craniometry and typology and other circuitous and highly
                        > > interpretational methods. No longer do we have to accept > >
                        unreliable
                        > > and/or sometimes "ulterior" subjective opinions on such things as
                        > the
                        > > genetic contribution of people groups such as Visigoths (the largest
                        > > of ALL Germanic tribes)
                        >
                        >
                        Faltin writes:
                        >
                        > There is so much wrong with this text that I point out only a few
                        > things. The Visigoths were certainly not the largest of all Germanic
                        > tribes. Franks, Saxons, Alamannians, Anglo-Saxons, Bavarians and the
                        >North Germanic peoples were all much larger than the >Visigoths.

                        F.E.J.D. writes:
                        First of all, please provide sources and content and stop hiding
                        behind your opinion.
                        Give us population numbers and approximate dates with citations for
                        all of the people groups you state.

                        Secondly, it is a matter of historic fact that there were only three
                        sizable Germanic tribes in Iberia (the Visigoths, Vandals and Suebi)
                        and the Visigoths were by far the largest.
                        Actually, people would have read my thought in its correct context had
                        you not snipped the text at the point which you inserted your
                        comments. The way it is snipped and separated by your comments (at mid
                        sentence) is rather convenient though. Is it not?
                        Now that you brought up the "Franks, Saxons, Alamannians,
                        Anglo-Saxons, Bavarians and the North Germanic peoples" as being
                        larger, you must prove the point.
                        Again - give us population numbers and approximate dates with
                        citations for all of the people groups you state. ---- However, you
                        will surely encounter that tribal groups in Europe at the time I cite
                        population numbers for the Visigoths (who's estimated population has
                        some verifiability) are extremely difficult to attain since these
                        purported tribes were extremely amorphous entities having few
                        verifiable geographic delineations, and in an almost constant process
                        of blending in and out of disparate groups. Therefore arriving at
                        meaningful population numbers is extremely difficult. The latter is
                        certainly so for the West Germans, (who were mainly farmers), since
                        certain of the West German tribes we have come to know; the Franks and
                        Saxons, were amalgamations of many smaller people groups having loose
                        ties. The latter is especially true of the Alemanni, the tribal group
                        from which some European states derive their name for the modern state
                        of Germany. The name Aleman simply means "all men" denoting a melting
                        pot of the checkerboard of people sharing similar culture that came to
                        be known as Germany.
                        . The Alemanni were in fact a composite nation formed from the Suevian
                        and other tribes, on the upper Rhine; same goes for the Franks. People
                        on the lower Rhine formed a "loose" conglomerate under that name. In
                        fact, most of the tribes in Central Europe remained largely amorphous
                        and unfocused until quite late, as is the case of the Franks who
                        largely remain that way until just before the time they are reported
                        as harassing the Visigoths.
                        Interestingly, quite often scholars have questioned the extent to
                        which these small tribes were committed to one another or to a larger
                        parent tribe. The only evidence of such is a text of Ammianus
                        Marcellinus that refers to the pactum vicissitudinis redendae, a pact
                        just promising mutual aid; ------- so much, for the cohesiveness of
                        these (great tribes?). It is just mere common sense that tribes could
                        not have had much association with one another or that many large
                        tribes could have existed in the type of dense forests typical in
                        Central Europe at the time and well into the early medieval period.
                        "Bury states that we must picture Germany as consisting of small
                        territories each of which was surrounded by a dense impenetrable ring
                        of primeval forest". That ring of woodland impeded attack from other
                        tribes around them. It is known through archaeological evidence that
                        "tribal groups" existed in small territories that were claimed from
                        these dense woodlands. Small tribes grew into large ones and much,
                        much later into Nation states when these small tribes grew and had to
                        chop down more of the forest for their expansion. The latter allowed
                        small tribes to come into contact with other tribes and to establish
                        some sort of (treaty or understanding) between one another in order to
                        keep war at bay etc. The reason that East German tribes were large is
                        because the geographic and environmental area in which they lived was
                        not densely wooded but rather open and prairie-like and for the most
                        part were not sedentary farmers.
                        (Please see The Invasion of Europe by the Barbarians. Especially pp10.)


                        >
                        >
                        > to the Spanish population. Simply by
                        > > understanding, contrasting and comparing the relevant haplogroups
                        >>and.

                        > > haplotypes within a given population one is able to tell if there
                        > has
                        > > been any extraneous admixture. It is interesting however that before
                        > > there was haplotyping it had been thought (quite correctly) by many
                        > > scholars, that the Visigoths numbered
                        > approximately
                        > > 300,000 in a peninsula of (at the time)
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        Faltin writes:
                        > This is likely far to high a number. More like 100,000 perhaps more
                        > and many of them were, according to the historical sources, hangers
                        > on. Runaway Roman peasants, slaves, Roman mine workers and so on, >
                        > who joined the Visigoths on their way to Spain.
                        >

                        F.E.J.D. writes:
                        There is wide debate in this actual number. I've seen as much as
                        500,000 and as little as 100,000, nonetheless...You AGAIN fail to
                        provide sources and content; this time, in order to substantiate your
                        estimate and the idea that many Visigoths were in fact not from
                        Germanic people groups but rather "hangers on" et al.

                        Here, you are making a point of quantifying (AND QUALIFYING), when it
                        was only necessary to quantify the number of Visigoths. You qualify
                        the types of individuals who joined the Visigoths by emphasizing that
                        "many" of those that joined were Roman and on (what has historically
                        been termed) the margins of society. You do so by using such words as
                        "hangers on" "Slaves", "peasants", "mine workers", etc. On the other
                        hand you avoid using individuals having other estates and occupations,
                        which may have also joined Visigothic ranks. Though it is true that
                        the lower classes openly welcomed the Visigoths. It is also true that
                        you deliberately inserted QUALIFYING criteria when qualifying criteria
                        was not needed. Your insertion of just certain types of estates and
                        occupations is also rather curious since it is extraneous to the
                        question of (how many individuals comprised the Visigoths and then
                        other tribes). The latter makes it appear that you inserted the latter
                        purposely. Furthermore, I can think of no other reason for doing so
                        other that to qualify the types of people that entered Spain.
                        Therefore you selectively make it seem that "many" Visigoths that
                        entered Spain were in fact not the descendants of ethnic Visigoths but
                        rather Romans and slaves, what has historically been considered as the
                        offal of society. Could it be that you would want readers to come away
                        with the idea that the Visigoths that entered Spain were less
                        desirable or somehow tainted by such individuals among their ranks?
                        Could it also be that you would like others to think that the Spanish
                        populace are in part descended from (as you say) "slaves, peasants
                        etc..." If so, let it be. However, your point is absurd, one cannot
                        delineate the Visigoths in such away. Though it is now obvious that
                        they were not all direct descendants of the original people groups
                        that we have come to know as Goths. They were more importantly the
                        originators and representatives of certain ideas that greatly impacted
                        the European world, which is why they are interesting and worthy of
                        study. As such, whatever type of individual joined their ranks matters
                        little. They certainly held together well by culture and language but
                        certainly also by certain ideas that transcended territorial origin,
                        occupation and estate. A good lesson for all of us in this day and age.

                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > [3,500,000 inhabitants
                        > > (Kenneth W. Harl, Tulane U. 1998)]. Likewise, (Stanley Payne, 1973)
                        > > concluded that the same number existed after the time of Alaric II
                        > > (484-507); a ratio of (11.66) to (1). The later ratio is in fact
                        > close
                        > > to the present ratio of African-Americans to European Americans in
                        > the
                        > > U.S, a sizable element in the overall population. Even so, it is
                        > > further thought that despite pressures from disease etc; the
                        > > Visigothic law of "thirds", (where 2/3 of each Hispano-Roman villa
                        > was
                        > > confiscated by Visigoths), would have given the Visigoths a greater
                        > > advantage in increasing their numbers, that, since the ability to
                        > > raise comestibles by having more land and better soils would have
                        > > favored Visigoth families over those who had poor soil and less land
                        > > and could not raise as much food. Furthermore, by projecting the
                        > > previous trend to 711CE (a period of some 200 years) it is quite
                        > > conceivable that the Visigoths could have narrowed the previously
                        > > stated ratio to as little as 10 to 1. You must also notice that I
                        > have
                        > > not factored-in other people Germanic people already in the
                        > peninsula,
                        > > they are simply not included as part of the Visigothic population,
                        > > namely the Suebi, which probably numbered around 80,000, and the
                        > > remnant Vandals that remained in Spain or returned to the Balearic
                        > > Islands and elsewhere after their ruinous mission to the south,
                        > > however these were probably few. � Nonetheless, underpinning the
                        > best
                        > > estimate of Visigoth admixture in Spain is the presence of suspect
                        > > genetic signatures in the Y-chromosome and/or mtDNA of extant
                        > > individuals where an inference may be made. The latter is in the
                        > > process of being collected from the extant populations of (Spain,
                        > > Pomerania, Gotland, and Southern Sweden as well as other suspected
                        > > homelands.
                        >
                        > Faltin writes:
                        >
                        > One cannot, but smile and shake ones head at such nonsense.
                        > I am sure you will succeed in calculating the Spanish into a Germanic
                        > people, strange only that most of them just don't look the part;-)
                        > Dirk

                        F.E.J.D. writes:
                        The last part of my post seems to have made you writhe uncomfortably.
                        I can actually picture you "shaking your head" in disgust.
                        However, I ask myself however, why would you say such things? It is
                        terribly discourteous and unprofessional to behave in such a way
                        towards anyone. If you have disagreements, I suggest you substantiate
                        them (as I have) in an intellectual cogent manner. Instead, you attack
                        me in an ad hominem manner. Such tactics are a sign that you can no
                        longer defend your points through reason.
                        FURTHERMORE:
                        WHAT YOU STATE, (THAT IS), THAT I WILL "SUCCEED IN CALCULATING THE
                        SPANISH INTO A GERMANIC PEOPLE" IS PATENTLY SLANDEROUS TOWARDS ME, MY
                        RESEARCH FELLOWS AND OUR PROFESSIONAL ETHICS. I WOULD ((( NEVER )))
                        WILLINGLY CAUSE AN EXPERIMENT OR STUDY TO SKEW IN ANY DIRECTION. to be
                        ACCUSED OF THAT BY ANYONE IS BEYOND THE PALE.
                        BE ADVICED THAT IF YOU WERE PRESENTLY IN THIS COUNTRY, I WOULD BRING A
                        LAW SUIT AGAINST YOU IMMEDIATELY. OUR CONSTITUTION DOES �NOT- PROTECT
                        SLANDEROUS SPEECH. THUS, BE ADVICED ---- YOUR COMMENTS WERE PATENTLY
                        SLANDEROUS.
                        I ALSO ASK THE MODERATOR TO TAKE NOTICE (SINCE THIS LIST IS IN THE
                        UNITED STATS), I HOPE THAT PROPER ACTION BE BROUGHT AGAINST YOU; NOT
                        ONLY FOR YOUR SLANDEROUS STATEMENTS BUT ALSO FOR YOUR RACIST COMMENTS
                        WHICH HEREAFTER I SHALL MAKE KNOWN. THEY ARE FOUND AT THE END OF YOUR
                        CLOSING.
                        ((( I HOPE EVERYONE HAS PICKED-UP ON THEM)) AND I HOPE THEY ARE ALSO
                        PASSED ON TO THE GERMANIC LIST IN WHICH YOU ARE ALSO A MEMBER.

                        YOUR COMMENTS STATE:
                        >"I am sure you will succeed in calculating the Spanish into a Germanic
                        > people, strange only that most of them just don't look the part;-)
                        > Dirk

                        You end your statement with an emoticon (how mature). Obviously the
                        winking emoticon is meant to be condescending and dismissive of the
                        idea that Spaniards could ever be partly descended from Visigoths. It
                        is purposely meant to be a disparaging remark to all Spaniards and me.
                        Had you stated the same phrase in a scholarly manner it would have
                        been taken as a bonafide question, however, your choice of words
                        followed by the emoticon clearly betray your intentions, it in fact
                        was meant to be clearly derogatory and offensive. EVERYONE - PLEASE
                        TAKE NOTICE!

                        Here, it is plainly evident you think people have to look a certain
                        way in order to be of Germanic ancestry (but how about those
                        individuals of full "Germanic ancestry" that are not the
                        "stereotypical idea" of Germanic, that is blond and blue-eyed)? Take
                        for example Franz Josef Wenzel, the prince of Liechtenstein and so
                        many others. And by the way, just what, in your opinion, do Germanic
                        people have to look like Herr Faltin?
                        ? Please substantiate your opinion ----- However, I suspect that you
                        won't since citing racist or anthropologically discredited literature
                        would immediately give you away and disclose exactly what you are and
                        feel. It is quite clear that you think most Spaniards do not meet your
                        criteria. That is why you constantly chafe every time someone brings
                        up the question of Visigothic descent in the Spanish populace. I say,
                        if one is partly descended from a certain people group then let the
                        genes speak for themselves, but I wonder if "you" would submit to
                        being genotyped? --- I wonder if you would be surprised?
                        You nonetheless, seem to chafe at the very idea that Spaniards are
                        partly descended from Visigoths who inhabited a common homeland. In
                        turn you ascribe to us decent from certain people groups at rates that
                        are not scientifically tenable and that (without sources and content).
                        The proof that you have done so is all over this list's archives. In
                        months past, your answers to me and to other individuals citing
                        anything to do with Visigothic heritage have been consistently
                        UNSUBSTANTIATED and full of negative opinion and dismissive comments.
                        I wonder---- what could be your reasons for doing so?
                        Anthropologically, both of your assertions are patently incorrect and
                        laughable. I will not dignify them with further answers.

                        Quite evidently you have shown your true colors, (pun intended).

                        Lastly, I am only a molecular anthropologist whose only desire is to
                        know how we got here, our descent. That sir is what drives me. The
                        Spanish people are what they are. I have no subjective desire to be or
                        to make others seem what we are not, whether "Germanic" or part of any
                        other people group. The very idea of desiring to be what we are not is
                        quite absurd anyway don't you think? Rather, we search such
                        connections in our genome because humans are curious about the world,
                        because we want to connect to our other fellow humans in profound and
                        intimate ways and because it is potentially expedient from a medical
                        point of view. It is also wonderful that we have such a tool in
                        genetics to let us search our connections and dispel the racist
                        theories and quackery so rampant today. All of us are actually related
                        anyway.

                        Actually I was going to answer Faltin's other post but I will not
                        dignify its contents nor take up this list' s time and bandwidth
                        unless the moderator and a majority feel that I ought to do so.

                        I send this in haste, please pardon grammatical errors and
                        LASTLY; beg the lists pardon for having to write this.

                        Thank you all,
                        F.E.J.D.






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                      • Ingemar Nordgren
                        ... this? ... Hi F.E.J.D., I am sorry but you are wrong out. Fritigern is correct but Alaric is a much later thing and with him the Visigoths form during that
                        Message 11 of 28 , May 28, 2004
                          --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, F. E. Jiménez Díaz <visigoth@a...> wrote:
                          > BTW Upon re reading my previous entry I would like to clarify that it
                          > was Fritigern at Hadrianople (over Valens), however, somehow I recall
                          > that Alaric might have been one of the Generals. Can someone clarify
                          this?
                          > Thanks,
                          > F.E.J.D.


                          Hi F.E.J.D.,

                          I am sorry but you are wrong out. Fritigern is correct but Alaric is a
                          much later thing and with him the Visigoths form during that very
                          name. Fritgern was a Vesi-Tervingi coming over the limes from
                          Gutþiuda/Romania after the Hunnic attack in 376.

                          Best
                          Ingemar
                        • Fern
                          Ingemar, Thanks for the information, I guess Alaric must have been a young boy or adolescent at the time of Hadrianople Cheers, F.J. ... [Non-text portions of
                          Message 12 of 28 , May 29, 2004
                            Ingemar,
                            Thanks for the information, I guess Alaric must have been a young boy or
                            adolescent at the time of Hadrianople

                            Cheers,
                            F.J.


                            Ingemar Nordgren wrote:

                            > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, F. E. Jiménez Díaz <visigoth@a...> wrote:
                            > > BTW Upon re reading my previous entry I would like to clarify that it
                            > > was Fritigern at Hadrianople (over Valens), however, somehow I recall
                            > > that Alaric might have been one of the Generals. Can someone clarify
                            > this?
                            > > Thanks,
                            > > F.E.J.D.
                            >
                            >
                            > Hi F.E.J.D.,
                            >
                            > I am sorry but you are wrong out. Fritigern is correct but Alaric is a
                            > much later thing and with him the Visigoths form during that very
                            > name. Fritgern was a Vesi-Tervingi coming over the limes from
                            > Gutþiuda/Romania after the Hunnic attack in 376.
                            >
                            > Best
                            > Ingemar
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a blank
                            > email to <gothic-l-unsubscribe@egroups.com>.
                            >
                            >
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                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • faltin2001
                            ... it ... recall ... clarify this? ... Hi, Alaric lived at the begining of the 5th century. The battle of Adrianople took place at the end of the 4th century.
                            Message 13 of 28 , Jun 4, 2004
                              --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, F. E. Jiménez Díaz <visigoth@a...>
                              wrote:
                              > BTW Upon re reading my previous entry I would like to clarify that
                              it
                              > was Fritigern at Hadrianople (over Valens), however, somehow I
                              recall
                              > that Alaric might have been one of the Generals. Can someone
                              clarify this?
                              > Thanks,
                              > F.E.J.D.


                              Hi,

                              Alaric lived at the begining of the 5th century. The battle of
                              Adrianople took place at the end of the 4th century.

                              Cheers
                              Dirk
                            • faltin2001
                              ... that ... A very sacrosanct, but highly cynical and offensive tone I detect here. ... Yes, and without recourse to cyncicism;-) I do ... No, that is not
                              Message 14 of 28 , Jun 4, 2004
                                --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, F. E. Jiménez Díaz <visigoth@a...>
                                wrote:
                                > My goodness Herr Faltin,
                                > My post seems to have made you become unhinged. Please be assured
                                that
                                > my intention was not to make you uncomfortable or have you take a
                                > flight of fancy as you have done trying to deconstruct what I have
                                > written.





                                A very sacrosanct, but highly cynical and offensive tone I detect
                                here.






                                > Indeed I do hope that we are able to correct one another's mistakes
                                > when mistakes are made but we should do so politely and cogently.






                                Yes, and without recourse to cyncicism;-)







                                I do
                                > admit that in haste I substituted Varus for Valens but that is all,







                                No, that is not all. Your post is full of misinterpretations or lets
                                say misunderstandings and a few genuine confusions as you admitted
                                yourself.








                                > (very similar names you know) about which you made some hay. Most
                                > decent people would have rather politely pointed to the oversight.








                                Your tone is still very offensive to me.











                                > Even so, though not a historically accepted appellation I will
                                choose
                                > to call Alaric's Gothic Victory over Valens, the "Clades Valensiana"
                                > (sic).




                                Lets call it battle of Adrianopel and everybody will know what mean.






                                > Furthermore, my observation of your comportment stands. - I
                                carefully
                                > read through your posts #7601 and 7602. Your efforts were not
                                > rebuttals but reactions, so strident, so uninformed and so
                                > misrepresentative of ideas that I would not have answered them had I
                                > not read to the very end where you make a deliberate ad hominem
                                > attack, and even worse, a slur I shall not dignify. You sir, have
                                done
                                > great harm to whatever credibility you might have had in these
                                groups.







                                Well, your in my view nationallistically teinted posts certainly did
                                nothing for your credibility.









                                > It is also a disservice to the members of this list to demonstrate
                                > such unprofessional behavior.




                                dito





                                >
                                > I hope everyone will read this and my next post in its entirety and
                                > let things stand on their merit. Even so, I am still willing to
                                > apologize if my original post made you uncomfortable in any way.
                                >






                                I think your posts would make many people uncomfortable who detest
                                the deliberate twisting and bending of history for the purpose of
                                agrandisation of a specific ethnic group. But your apology (if meant
                                sincerely) is accepted!









                                <snip>









                                >
                                > > > F.E.J.D. writes:
                                > > > Presently Leonardo, genetic haplotyping has minimized the
                                inaccuracy
                                > > > of population studies, which relied solely on historical data,
                                > > > craniometry and typology and other circuitous and highly
                                > > > interpretational methods. No longer do we have to accept > >
                                > unreliable
                                > > > and/or sometimes "ulterior" subjective opinions on such things
                                as
                                > > the
                                > > > genetic contribution of people groups such as Visigoths (the
                                largest
                                > > > of ALL Germanic tribes)
                                > >
                                > >
                                > Faltin writes:
                                > >
                                > > There is so much wrong with this text that I point out only a few
                                > > things. The Visigoths were certainly not the largest of all
                                Germanic
                                > > tribes. Franks, Saxons, Alamannians, Anglo-Saxons, Bavarians and
                                the
                                > >North Germanic peoples were all much larger than the >Visigoths.
                                >
                                > F.E.J.D. writes:
                                > First of all, please provide sources and content and stop hiding
                                > behind your opinion.
                                > Give us population numbers and approximate dates with citations for
                                > all of the people groups you state.







                                Sorry, I assumed that you are familiar with the relevant literature,
                                but I should have noticed that you are not, otherwise you would not
                                have stated that the Visigoths were the largest of "all" Germanic
                                peoples. For literature on this please refer to Bruno Krueger "Die
                                Germanen", vol 2, but really this is so well known that I am really
                                surprised by your comment.










                                >
                                > Secondly, it is a matter of historic fact that there were only three
                                > sizable Germanic tribes in Iberia (the Visigoths, Vandals and Suebi)
                                > and the Visigoths were by far the largest.




                                Well, you wrote of "ALL" Germanic peoples, not just Vandals and Suebi.







                                > Actually, people would have read my thought in its correct context
                                had
                                > you not snipped the text at the point which you inserted your
                                > comments. The way it is snipped and separated by your comments (at
                                mid
                                > sentence) is rather convenient though. Is it not?
                                > Now that you brought up the "Franks, Saxons, Alamannians,
                                > Anglo-Saxons, Bavarians and the North Germanic peoples" as being
                                > larger, you must prove the point.
                                > Again - give us population numbers and approximate dates with
                                > citations for all of the people groups you state.







                                Again, refer to Krueger's work which will provide you will all the
                                information you are lacking in this respect.







                                ---- However, you
                                > will surely encounter that tribal groups in Europe at the time I
                                cite
                                > population numbers for the Visigoths (who's estimated population has
                                > some verifiability) are extremely difficult to attain since these
                                > purported tribes were extremely amorphous entities having few
                                > verifiable geographic delineations, and in an almost constant
                                process
                                > of blending in and out of disparate groups. Therefore arriving at
                                > meaningful population numbers is extremely difficult. The latter is
                                > certainly so for the West Germans, (who were mainly farmers), since
                                > certain of the West German tribes we have come to know; the Franks
                                and
                                > Saxons, were amalgamations of many smaller people groups having
                                loose
                                > ties. The latter is especially true of the Alemanni, the tribal
                                group
                                > from which some European states derive their name for the modern
                                state
                                > of Germany. The name Aleman simply means "all men" denoting a
                                melting
                                > pot of the checkerboard of people sharing similar culture that came
                                to
                                > be known as Germany.





                                Are you now trying to insult may native country? The Alamanni did not
                                form the sole basis for what is known as Germany today. This, also
                                includes Saxons, Bavarians, Hessian, Franks, Frisians and many more.
                                The Alamanni consisted almost exclusively of Elbe Germanic groups,
                                probably mostly Semnones and Hermunduri. They later incorporated also
                                people like Thuringians, and eastern Danube Suebi, while
                                archaeological evidence suggests the settlement of Gepids in the
                                Basle region as well.







                                > . The Alemanni were in fact a composite nation formed from the
                                Suevian
                                > and other tribes, on the upper Rhine; same goes for the Franks.
                                People
                                > on the lower Rhine formed a "loose" conglomerate under that name. In
                                > fact, most of the tribes in Central Europe remained largely
                                amorphous
                                > and unfocused until quite late, as is the case of the Franks who
                                > largely remain that way until just before the time they are reported
                                > as harassing the Visigoths.
                                > Interestingly, quite often scholars have questioned the extent to
                                > which these small tribes were committed to one another or to a
                                larger
                                > parent tribe. The only evidence of such is a text of Ammianus
                                > Marcellinus that refers to the pactum vicissitudinis redendae, a
                                pact
                                > just promising mutual aid; ------- so much, for the cohesiveness of
                                > these (great tribes?). It is just mere common sense that tribes
                                could
                                > not have had much association with one another or that many large
                                > tribes could have existed in the type of dense forests typical in
                                > Central Europe at the time and well into the early medieval period.
                                > "Bury states that we must picture Germany as consisting of small
                                > territories each of which was surrounded by a dense impenetrable
                                ring
                                > of primeval forest". That ring of woodland impeded attack from other
                                > tribes around them. It is known through archaeological evidence that
                                > "tribal groups" existed in small territories that were claimed from
                                > these dense woodlands. Small tribes grew into large ones and much,
                                > much later into Nation states when these small tribes grew and had
                                to
                                > chop down more of the forest for their expansion. The latter allowed
                                > small tribes to come into contact with other tribes and to establish
                                > some sort of (treaty or understanding) between one another in order
                                to
                                > keep war at bay etc.






                                Nevertheless, people like the Alamanni had a shared common identity
                                and did act as united polities when needed. Thus, the population of
                                the Alamannia amounted to about 500,000 to 800,000 mln according to
                                most estimates and if we believe Marcellinus they fielded an army of
                                70,000.








                                The reason that East German tribes were large is
                                > because the geographic and environmental area in which they lived
                                was
                                > not densely wooded but rather open and prairie-like and for the most
                                > part were not sedentary farmers.
                                > (Please see The Invasion of Europe by the Barbarians. Especially
                                pp10.)
                                >











                                >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > to the Spanish population. Simply by
                                > > > understanding, contrasting and comparing the relevant
                                haplogroups
                                > >>and.
                                >
                                > > > haplotypes within a given population one is able to tell if
                                there
                                > > has
                                > > > been any extraneous admixture. It is interesting however that
                                before
                                > > > there was haplotyping it had been thought (quite correctly) by
                                many
                                > > > scholars, that the Visigoths numbered
                                > > approximately
                                > > > 300,000 in a peninsula of (at the time)
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > Faltin writes:
                                > > This is likely far to high a number. More like 100,000 perhaps
                                more
                                > > and many of them were, according to the historical sources,
                                hangers
                                > > on. Runaway Roman peasants, slaves, Roman mine workers and so on,
                                >
                                > > who joined the Visigoths on their way to Spain.
                                > >
                                >


                                > F.E.J.D. writes:
                                > There is wide debate in this actual number. I've seen as much as
                                > 500,000 and as little as 100,000, nonetheless...You AGAIN fail to
                                > provide sources and content;




                                As you say yourself estimates range widely between 100k and 500k. So
                                why restate sources that you say you know yourself.








                                this time, in order to substantiate your
                                > estimate and the idea that many Visigoths were in fact not from
                                > Germanic people groups but rather "hangers on" et al.
                                >
                                > Here, you are making a point of quantifying (AND QUALIFYING), when
                                it
                                > was only necessary to quantify the number of Visigoths. You qualify
                                > the types of individuals who joined the Visigoths by emphasizing
                                that
                                > "many" of those that joined were Roman and on (what has historically
                                > been termed) the margins of society. You do so by using such words
                                as
                                > "hangers on" "Slaves", "peasants", "mine workers", etc. On the other
                                > hand you avoid using individuals having other estates and
                                occupations,
                                > which may have also joined Visigothic ranks.





                                The Roman historian who provided us with this information used
                                exactly these terms. I would have to look up the source, but it is
                                once again a well established fact that the ranks of the migrating
                                Visigoths were swelled by people on the margins of society,
                                especially poor Roman peasants, runaway slavs and disgruntled miners.








                                Though it is true that
                                > the lower classes openly welcomed the Visigoths. It is also true
                                that
                                > you deliberately inserted QUALIFYING criteria when qualifying
                                criteria
                                > was not needed.




                                You get this wrong completely, I just used the terms provided in the
                                sources. You were obviously keen to show that the modern Spanish
                                population is significantly Germanic, which I think is wrong because:

                                a) I think the number of the Visigoths are overstated
                                b) the Visigoths included large parts of non-Germanic people.










                                Your insertion of just certain types of estates and
                                > occupations is also rather curious since it is extraneous to the
                                > question of (how many individuals comprised the Visigoths and then
                                > other tribes). The latter makes it appear that you inserted the
                                latter
                                > purposely.



                                see above.



                                Furthermore, I can think of no other reason for doing so
                                > other that to qualify the types of people that entered Spain.



                                I recommmend you read the relevant sources.




                                > Therefore you selectively make it seem that "many" Visigoths that
                                > entered Spain were in fact not the descendants of ethnic Visigoths
                                but
                                > rather Romans and slaves, what has historically been considered as
                                the
                                > offal of society. Could it be that you would want readers to come
                                away
                                > with the idea that the Visigoths that entered Spain were less
                                > desirable or somehow tainted by such individuals among their ranks?





                                You should not engage in speculation without reading the relevant
                                sources first. Have a look at Wolfram's book which will direct you to
                                the primary source.









                                > Could it also be that you would like others to think that the
                                Spanish
                                > populace are in part descended from (as you say) "slaves, peasants
                                > etc..." If so, let it be.






                                Slaves, peasants and miners were part of the heritage of most modern
                                population. I think you will agree that your argumentation is now
                                absurd.







                                However, your point is absurd, one cannot
                                > delineate the Visigoths in such away. Though it is now obvious that
                                > they were not all direct descendants of the original people groups
                                > that we have come to know as Goths. They were more importantly the
                                > originators and representatives of certain ideas that greatly
                                impacted
                                > the European world, which is why they are interesting and worthy of
                                > study. As such, whatever type of individual joined their ranks
                                matters
                                > little. They certainly held together well by culture and language
                                but
                                > certainly also by certain ideas that transcended territorial origin,
                                > occupation and estate. A good lesson for all of us in this day and
                                age.
                                >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > [3,500,000 inhabitants
                                > > > (Kenneth W. Harl, Tulane U. 1998)]. Likewise, (Stanley Payne,
                                1973)
                                > > > concluded that the same number existed after the time of Alaric
                                II
                                > > > (484-507); a ratio of (11.66) to (1). The later ratio is in
                                fact
                                > > close
                                > > > to the present ratio of African-Americans to European Americans
                                in
                                > > the
                                > > > U.S, a sizable element in the overall population. Even so, it is
                                > > > further thought that despite pressures from disease etc; the
                                > > > Visigothic law of "thirds", (where 2/3 of each Hispano-Roman
                                villa
                                > > was
                                > > > confiscated by Visigoths), would have given the Visigoths a
                                greater
                                > > > advantage in increasing their numbers, that, since the ability
                                to
                                > > > raise comestibles by having more land and better soils would
                                have
                                > > > favored Visigoth families over those who had poor soil and less
                                land
                                > > > and could not raise as much food. Furthermore, by projecting the
                                > > > previous trend to 711CE (a period of some 200 years) it is
                                quite
                                > > > conceivable that the Visigoths could have narrowed the
                                previously
                                > > > stated ratio to as little as 10 to 1. You must also notice that
                                I
                                > > have
                                > > > not factored-in other people Germanic people already in the
                                > > peninsula,
                                > > > they are simply not included as part of the Visigothic
                                population,
                                > > > namely the Suebi, which probably numbered around 80,000, and the
                                > > > remnant Vandals that remained in Spain or returned to the
                                Balearic
                                > > > Islands and elsewhere after their ruinous mission to the south,
                                > > > however these were probably few. – Nonetheless, underpinning
                                the
                                > > best
                                > > > estimate of Visigoth admixture in Spain is the presence of
                                suspect
                                > > > genetic signatures in the Y-chromosome and/or mtDNA of extant
                                > > > individuals where an inference may be made. The latter is in the
                                > > > process of being collected from the extant populations of
                                (Spain,
                                > > > Pomerania, Gotland, and Southern Sweden as well as other
                                suspected
                                > > > homelands.
                                > >
                                > > Faltin writes:
                                > >
                                > > One cannot, but smile and shake ones head at such nonsense.
                                > > I am sure you will succeed in calculating the Spanish into a
                                Germanic
                                > > people, strange only that most of them just don't look the part;-)
                                > > Dirk
                                >
                                > F.E.J.D. writes:
                                > The last part of my post seems to have made you writhe
                                uncomfortably.
                                > I can actually picture you "shaking your head" in disgust.
                                > However, I ask myself however, why would you say such things? It is
                                > terribly discourteous and unprofessional to behave in such a way
                                > towards anyone. If you have disagreements, I suggest you
                                substantiate
                                > them (as I have) in an intellectual cogent manner.



                                F.E.J.D, my aim was not to attack Spaniards or the Spanish nation and
                                I have not done so. In contrast, my aim was to give due notice to the
                                true ethnic heritage of the Spaniards, who are not Germanic but who
                                certainly have absorbed some Germanic people about 1500 years ago. If
                                you reread your texts, you might see that you constantly glorify the
                                Visigothic people out of all proportions and that you seek to give
                                the impression that modern Spaniards are essentially Visigoths or
                                largly Germanic. They are not in my view. Instead, they include a
                                rich mixure of ethnic groups including people like Celt-Iberians,
                                Romans, Greeks, North Africans, Jews and of course Germanics. I did
                                perceive your texts as highly nationalistic and they did make me
                                uncomfortable as you rightly expected. You have apologised for this
                                and I have accepted. I apologise for my final sentence, which was
                                never intended to be slanderous, but it was intended as bonafide
                                remark reflecting may overall disapproval with the tone of your
                                posts.

                                Cheers
                                Dirk
                              • faltin2001
                                ... Dirk: We all know little about the Goths, because only little is known about the Goths in general, but I have read all (or most) of the literature on the
                                Message 15 of 28 , Jun 4, 2004
                                  --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, OSCAR HERRERA <duke.co@s...> wrote:
                                  > oscargoth- dirk you know little of the goths.


                                  Dirk:
                                  We all know little about the Goths, because only little is known
                                  about the Goths in general, but I have read all (or most) of the
                                  literature on the Goths.





                                  Oscar:
                                  how spanish was invoked as a language ,well lets say we dont know.


                                  Dirk:
                                  We don't? Well is Spanish not a Romanic language?




                                  Oscar:
                                  it was spoken there before the romans arrived.




                                  Dirk:
                                  I doubt that this is correct to be honest. The Roman period in Spain
                                  is very important and Spanish, as a romanic language is a direct
                                  result.





                                  Oscar:
                                  the goths on the other hand were a well adapting germanic tribe and
                                  were very loyal to their own language




                                  Dirk:
                                  That is wrong I am afraid. They did keep their Germanic names, thus
                                  adhereing to Germanic namining practices which they shared also with
                                  other Germanic groups, but especially the Visigoths lost their
                                  Germanic language at an early time. The Visigoths arrive in Spain at
                                  the end of the 5th century and then in larger numbers after the
                                  catastrophic defeat inflicted by the Francs in 507AD. To what extend
                                  they still spoke Gothic at that time is uncertain, but by the middle
                                  of the 6th century a source distinguishes them as the Roman Goths to
                                  denote the fact that they had mostly become Latin speakers.






                                  Oscar:
                                  as shown by many gothic kings that ruled in spain prior to the moors
                                  invasion. their names were germanic,such as
                                  sisabut,sigeric,wallia,theudigiesel and on


                                  Dirk:
                                  Yes, Germanic naming practice was conservative and could not easily
                                  be transfered to Latin names.



                                  Oscar:
                                  ....history also said the goths drove the moors out.....



                                  Dirk:
                                  The Visigoths lost most of Spain and certainly their kingdom in Spain
                                  to the Moors. They did not drive them out. The Moslems were finally
                                  driven out by Spaniards not Goths centuries later.






                                  Oscar:
                                  so, why did these people give up their language and change spanish to
                                  its present pronunciation instead of invoking the gothic language and
                                  using a liitle spanish in it.


                                  Dirk:
                                  Because they were a small minority that was enitrely dependent on a
                                  Roman/Latin civil and clerical administration.





                                  Oscar:
                                  in conclusion gothic is nice to speak and i think the germanic
                                  peoples of europe should be entitled to more than just a few germanic
                                  languages spoken in north europe...



                                  Dirk:

                                  that is an entirely different matter. You and all Spaniards can speak
                                  and revive as much Gothic as they like, but it does not change the
                                  true ethnic composition of Spain and it does not change the history
                                  of that country either.

                                  One of the best books on the Visigoths is "Adel, Kirche und Königtum
                                  im Westgotenreich" by Dietrich Claude. I strongly recommend this for
                                  all who are interested in discussing Visigothic Spain.

                                  Cheers
                                  Dirk
                                • faltin2001
                                  ... posting, which clears up the other one which arrogantly belittled the Visigothic contribution to the Iberic Peninsula. It seems that many scholars nowadays
                                  Message 16 of 28 , Jun 4, 2004
                                    --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Jorge Alexandre S G <dowrgwyns@y...>

                                    wrote:
                                    > It was very comforting to read this superb and scientifically based
                                    posting, which clears up the other one which arrogantly belittled the
                                    Visigothic contribution to the Iberic Peninsula.
                                    It seems that many scholars nowadays are actually politically
                                    biased ,which shows in itself the great danger of science being seen
                                    as truely neutral, as I once learned when I took one year of Social
                                    Sciences ,cause its objectivity is only an ideal,its being highly
                                    influenced by many subjective and political reasons.


                                    Dirk:
                                    That is true, and that is why some people glorify ethnic groups and
                                    distort their history. Certainly, these distortions are often to the
                                    taste of many people, which, however, does not make them any more
                                    correct.

                                    Cheers
                                    Dirk
                                  • Denis Glenard
                                    Hi Dirk, Hi everyone, I m not a scholar in these things, but there are a couple points from your previous Emails I d like to press here: Dirk: I doubt that
                                    Message 17 of 28 , Jun 4, 2004
                                      Hi Dirk,
                                      Hi everyone,

                                      I'm not a scholar in these things, but there are a couple points from your previous Emails I'd like to press here:

                                      "Dirk:
                                      I doubt that this is correct to be honest. The Roman period in Spain
                                      is very important and Spanish, as a romanic language is a direct
                                      result."

                                      Spanish is definitely a romance language. We should perhaps be very precise and call it castilian, as there are many other languages in Spain.
                                      Castilian is only a romance dialect, mainly spoken by the southern basques/castilians at the beginning of the 2nd millenium, hence the pronunciation of modern "spanish" is derived from basque (that's why they "sound" the same). The fact that the Reconquista was undertaken from the northern territories, including the Basque Country, helped impose this dialect as the main one in the kingdom, although many others were and still are spoken locally (whether these are languages or dialects is not relevant here, there are many battles going around this, quite a few of them political).

                                      The Iberian language, the language spoken before the Roman invasion of Spain, is quite well known. It has it's own alphabet and although some of it is still not understood, progress is made every year.

                                      Modern Spanish language is therefore made of bits and pieces taken from the languages spoken by it's invaders and original inhabitants, Celts, Iberians, Basque, Goths, Moors, etc. in varyiing degrees, obviously.

                                      Dirk, you state in your other Email : "modern Spaniards (...) include a
                                      rich mixure of ethnic groups including people like Celt-Iberians,
                                      Romans, Greeks, North Africans, Jews and of course Germanics."

                                      I resent your leaving out the Basque, who were there before almost all of the other ethnic groups, who have fought every battle to free Spain from every kind of invader. You also leave out the Phoenicians (the palm fields in Elche (Elx) were planted by them as a food resource for their maritime trips) and the Cartaginese (although one could say they're part of the "north Africans").
                                      I'm not sure either I agree with you assertion of the mixture with the Moors and Jews. The mixture was rare, for religious, not race reasons.
                                      The Moors (who weren't that many to start with) did not take in converts, simply beacause christians paid more taxes. As for Jews, it is a well known fact that they do not proselytise and you are only Jewish because your mother was Jewish. This is why it was easy for the Catholic Kings to root out Muslims and Jews in 1492; had they been mixed within the general population, it would have been impossible.
                                      This of course does not mean 100% separation, just that mixing was so small than it would probably be impossible to trace nowadays.

                                      Sorry if I've been a bit long on this one, but the Basque can never be taken for granted ;-)))

                                      Denis GLENARD








                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • faltin2001
                                      ... Spain ... precise and call it castilian, as there are many other languages in Spain. ... basques/castilians at the beginning of the 2nd millenium, hence
                                      Message 18 of 28 , Jun 4, 2004
                                        --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "Denis Glenard" <denisglenard@y...>
                                        wrote:
                                        > Hi Dirk,
                                        > Hi everyone,
                                        >
                                        > I'm not a scholar in these things, but there are a couple points
                                        from your previous Emails I'd like to press here:
                                        >
                                        > "Dirk:
                                        > I doubt that this is correct to be honest. The Roman period in
                                        Spain
                                        > is very important and Spanish, as a romanic language is a direct
                                        > result."
                                        >
                                        > Spanish is definitely a romance language. We should perhaps be very
                                        precise and call it castilian, as there are many other languages in
                                        Spain.
                                        > Castilian is only a romance dialect, mainly spoken by the southern
                                        basques/castilians at the beginning of the 2nd millenium, hence the
                                        pronunciation of modern "spanish" is derived from basque (that's why
                                        they "sound" the same). The fact that the Reconquista was undertaken
                                        from the northern territories, including the Basque Country, helped
                                        impose this dialect as the main one in the kingdom, although many
                                        others were and still are spoken locally (whether these are languages
                                        or dialects is not relevant here, there are many battles going around
                                        this, quite a few of them political).



                                        Hi Dennis,

                                        thanks for elaborating the point. This is exactly what I thought as
                                        well. Thus, Spanish is a Romanic language of course and Spanish is
                                        due to the Roman presence in Spain.






                                        >
                                        > The Iberian language, the language spoken before the Roman invasion
                                        of Spain, is quite well known. It has it's own alphabet and although
                                        some of it is still not understood, progress is made every year.
                                        >


                                        Dirk:
                                        Yes, an intesting alphabet too which bears casual similarity with
                                        Germanic runes, although it has nothing to do with Runes.





                                        > Modern Spanish language is therefore made of bits and pieces taken
                                        from the languages spoken by it's invaders and original inhabitants,
                                        Celts, Iberians, Basque, Goths, Moors, etc. in varyiing degrees,
                                        obviously.



                                        Dirk:
                                        Yep, but nontheless Spanish is clearly recognisable a Romanic
                                        language it is infact so close to Italian that Italian often claim to
                                        understand Spanish without any prior study.







                                        >
                                        > Dirk, you state in your other Email : "modern Spaniards (...)
                                        include a
                                        > rich mixure of ethnic groups including people like Celt-Iberians,
                                        > Romans, Greeks, North Africans, Jews and of course Germanics."
                                        >
                                        > I resent your leaving out the Basque, who were there before almost
                                        all of the other ethnic groups, who have fought every battle to free
                                        Spain from every kind of invader.



                                        Dirk:
                                        True, I just foregot the Basques. In fact, I probably foregot a few
                                        more other groups and I did not claim to have presented a
                                        comprehensive list. The Basques are however, more important and
                                        should not be left out.







                                        Denis:
                                        You also leave out the Phoenicians (the palm fields in Elche (Elx)
                                        were planted by them as a food resource for their maritime trips) and
                                        the Cartaginese (although one could say they're part of the "north
                                        Africans").


                                        Dirk:
                                        As I said the list was not meant to include all.




                                        Denis:
                                        > I'm not sure either I agree with you assertion of the mixture with
                                        the Moors and Jews. The mixture was rare, for religious, not race
                                        reasons.




                                        Dirk:
                                        We certainly know that Visigoths and Moors intermarried at the
                                        highest levels of society. Many Spanish Jews converted to Catholicsim
                                        thus removing the religious barrier. Spain traditionally had a very
                                        strong Jewish population and I guess a lot of intermarriage took
                                        place over time, but I cannot be certain.








                                        Denis:
                                        > The Moors (who weren't that many to start with) did not take in
                                        converts, simply beacause christians paid more taxes.





                                        As I said we know that the Moslem elite married with Visigothic
                                        elites. So the barrier cannot have been too high. Also, I included
                                        the Berbers with the actual Arabs.






                                        Denis:
                                        As for Jews, it is a well known fact that they do not proselytise and
                                        you are only Jewish because your mother was Jewish. This is why it
                                        was easy for the Catholic Kings to root out Muslims and Jews in 1492;
                                        had they been mixed within the general population, it would have been
                                        impossible.



                                        Dirk
                                        That is probably correct, but we are discussing ethnic (non-
                                        religious) backgrounds. Thus, many Spanish Jews converted to
                                        Catholicism (I think there was even a special name for them) and
                                        those will to a large extend have been absorbed into the modern
                                        Spanish population.






                                        > This of course does not mean 100% separation, just that mixing was
                                        so small than it would probably be impossible to trace nowadays.


                                        Dirk:
                                        That might be the case, but this is probably also true for the
                                        Visigothic input.




                                        >
                                        > Sorry if I've been a bit long on this one, but the Basque can never
                                        be taken for granted ;-)))
                                        >



                                        Newer research suggests that the Basques may have played a much
                                        bigger role in holding of the Moslems from the North than was
                                        traditionally acknowledged.

                                        Cheers
                                        Dirk
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