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Re: [gothic-l] Re: Spanish surnames

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  • Leonardo Frithunanths
    Hails Allum! After an absence of 3 years I ve returned to this list, and apparently nothing much has changed around here, thank God. :) I would like to make
    Message 1 of 28 , May 16, 2004
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      Hails Allum!

      After an absence of 3 years I've returned to this list, and apparently nothing much has changed around here, thank God. :)

      I would like to make comment on what Oscargoth once wrote.

      Oscar,- I couldn't agree more with you!!!!

      But regarding a possible division where one part would speak spanish and another one gothic, well, I'm not very much into the 'good old' "Divide and conquer/rule" system, I think that we've seen too much of that throughout history.

      But I'm most definitely positive to that idea of awakening the spanish people into the knowledge of their glorious legacy, the Visigoths, successors of the romans and defenders of the Iberian Peninsula. This glorious, highly intelligent and also from a cultural/religious point of view, interesting people who in modern times have most often been blemished by far too many people(specially from the church...). For me it seems extremely reasonable to do all this (except for the division of Spain) considering the following things: In Spain there's today a growing awareness of their celtic heritage, very much expressed in e.g newly founded cultural groups and feasts. Euskera needs no further introduction considering the great importance that it already enjoys in today's Northern Spain. Regarding Iberian, well.. very little is known still today about this ancient language and apparently those who understand it, even a little bit, are all scientists or amateur scientists.
      Arabic is taught in Spain at several institutions and besides, today's spanish urban citizens have a close contact with them and their culture considering the vast amount of arabic inmigrants that live in Spain today.

      Latin and the cultures that it spawned has, is and will most definitely always be taught at schools, universities and other institutions throughout Spain.

      It therefore leaves us with the Gothic discourse. As people in Spain are taught in history about the Romans, La Reconquista and the Moors(+ the very, very little that is also taught about the Iberians, Basques, Greeks, Phoenicians, Celts/Celtiberians, Alans and the Germanic tribes). Spanish is being taught, as well as other languages which have nothing much to do with the Peninsula such as English or French. Why can't Gothic be taught then? Considering that they did establish themselves on the Peninsula, they ruled and influenced it forever by mixing themselves with the rest of the population. They also provided to the heritage by leaving customs, sayings, words and other cultural traits. As mentioned, they ruled it and left behind them significant edifications such as churches, monuments etc... and even at least one town(!) such as Reccopolis.

      The goths and their descendants were crucial in all means in contributing to the outcome of what is known today as Spain.

      Therefore I call out to everyone out there (especialmente a aquellos de esta lista que viven en España), isn't there anything that can be done in order to promulge yet again the knowledge(e.g their language, history and religion) about AND of the Goths in Spain?

      'Anything?! There must be!

      Thank you in advance.

      Yours sincerely,

      Leonardo.



      Ansts jah gawairthi izwis! - Grace and peace to you.


      >there in spain today alot of people live there >are of decented from their gothic
      >invaders.ive been in spain several times.so why >isnt there govt providing the
      >language goth as an alternative language instead of >say english or french.i mean
      >if your racially indebted to your own culture ,then >they should carry on that
      >culture i mean the goths did more in spain than any >other group. they fought
      >the moors and established their kingdom there for >400 years.i think more should
      >be bestowed on the gothic deeds done there.even the >possibility of starting a
      >new gothic led govt for some of the people there. >or say dividing spain up where
      >half will speak spanish and a spanish govt. and the >other half a goth led govt
      >speaking goth....something to that effect. oscargoth



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      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • faltin2001
      ... apparently nothing much has changed around here, thank God. :) ... spanish and another one gothic, well, I m not very much into the good old Divide and
      Message 2 of 28 , May 17, 2004
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        --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Leonardo Frithunanths
        <frithunanths_scandza@y...> wrote:
        >
        > Hails Allum!
        >
        > After an absence of 3 years I've returned to this list, and
        apparently nothing much has changed around here, thank God. :)
        >
        > I would like to make comment on what Oscargoth once wrote.
        >
        > Oscar,- I couldn't agree more with you!!!!
        >
        > But regarding a possible division where one part would speak
        spanish and another one gothic, well, I'm not very much into
        the 'good old' "Divide and conquer/rule" system, I think that we've
        seen too much of that throughout history.
        >
        > But I'm most definitely positive to that idea of awakening the
        spanish people into the knowledge of their glorious legacy, the
        Visigoths, successors of the romans and defenders of the Iberian
        Peninsula.



        Dirk:
        They didn't do a particularly good job defending the Peninsula I
        think. I mean loosing the whole place in one battle? In fact, as you
        know the last Visigothic rulers were highly divided and parts of them
        have most likely called in the Moors. Also, by far most Visigoths
        lived well under the Moors.









        >This glorious, highly intelligent





        Dirk:
        I don't think that a people as such can be highly intelligent. Some
        of them will have been intelligent others will have been less so.







        and also from a cultural/religious point of view, interesting people
        who in modern times have most often been blemished by far too many
        people(specially from the church...).






        Dirk:
        I think they have mostly been glorified out of all proportion,
        especially by the church in Spain. Afterall the reconquista tried to
        envoke the Catholic Visigothic realm.












        For me it seems extremely reasonable to do all this (except for the
        division of Spain) considering the following things:
        In Spain there's today a growing awareness of their celtic heritage,
        very much expressed in e.g newly founded cultural groups and feasts.
        Euskera needs no further introduction considering the great
        importance that it already enjoys in today's Northern Spain.
        Regarding Iberian, well.. very little is known still today about this
        ancient language and apparently those who understand it, even a
        little bit, are all scientists or amateur scientists.
        > Arabic is taught in Spain at several institutions and besides,
        today's spanish urban citizens have a close contact with them and
        their culture considering the vast amount of arabic inmigrants that
        live in Spain today.
        >
        > Latin and the cultures that it spawned has, is and will most
        definitely always be taught at schools, universities and other
        institutions throughout Spain.
        >
        > It therefore leaves us with the Gothic discourse. As people in
        Spain are taught in history about the Romans, La Reconquista and the
        Moors(+ the very, very little that is also taught about the Iberians,
        Basques, Greeks, Phoenicians, Celts/Celtiberians, Alans and the
        Germanic tribes). Spanish is being taught, as well as other languages
        which have nothing much to do with the Peninsula such as English or
        French. Why can't Gothic be taught then?





        Dirk:
        I suppose it could be taught, but there will likely be very little
        interest, apart from students of Germanistics. The Goths who arrived
        on the Iberian peninsular around 500AD were already in the process of
        loosing their Germanic language. The Visigoths in Spain spoke at best
        only for about 1 generation Gothic if it all. A 6 century source
        calls them the Roman Goths, likely to show that they were mostly
        Latin speaking.







        Considering that they did establish themselves on the Peninsula,
        they ruled and influenced it forever by mixing themselves with the
        rest of the population.






        Dirk:
        Their cultural influence is undeniably very significant, but their
        ethnic input is hardly more than a drop in an ocean, outnumbered even
        by the input of other minorities like Jews, Berbers etc.










        They also provided to the heritage by leaving customs, sayings, words
        and other cultural traits. As mentioned, they ruled it and left
        behind them significant edifications such as churches, monuments
        etc... and even at least one town(!) such as Reccopolis.
        >
        > The goths and their descendants were crucial in all means in
        contributing to the outcome of what is known today as Spain.
        >
        > Therefore I call out to everyone out there (especialmente a
        aquellos de esta lista que viven en España), isn't there anything
        that can be done in order to promulge yet again the knowledge(e.g
        their language, history and religion) about AND of the Goths in
        Spain?
        >
        > 'Anything?! There must be!
        >






        Dirk:
        No harm in trying; but it would be an artificial reconstruction based
        on some sort of patriotism/nationalism and in disregard of the true
        ethnnic and cultural origins of Spain, which certainly is not
        Visigothic, but to which the Visigoths made a contribution.

        Cheers
        Dirk
      • OSCAR HERRERA
        oscargoth- dirk you know little of the goths.how spanish was invoked as a language ,well lets say we dont know.it was spoken there before the romans
        Message 3 of 28 , May 18, 2004
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          oscargoth- dirk you know little of the goths.how spanish was invoked as a language ,well lets say we dont know.it was spoken there before the romans arrived.the goths on the other hand were a well adapting germanic tribe and were very loyal to their own language as shown by many gothic kings that ruled in spain prior to the moors invasion. their names were germanic,such as sisabut,sigeric,wallia,theudigiesel and on....history also said the goths drove the moors out..... so, why did these people give up their language and change spanish to its present pronunciation instead of invoking the gothic language and using a liitle spanish in it. in conclusion gothic is nice to speak and i think the germanic peoples of europe should be entitled to more than just a few germanic languages spoken in north europe...

          faltin2001 <dirk@...> wrote:--- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Leonardo Frithunanths
          wrote:
          >
          > Hails Allum!
          >
          > After an absence of 3 years I've returned to this list, and
          apparently nothing much has changed around here, thank God. :)
          >
          > I would like to make comment on what Oscargoth once wrote.
          >
          > Oscar,- I couldn't agree more with you!!!!
          >
          > But regarding a possible division where one part would speak
          spanish and another one gothic, well, I'm not very much into
          the 'good old' "Divide and conquer/rule" system, I think that we've
          seen too much of that throughout history.
          >
          > But I'm most definitely positive to that idea of awakening the
          spanish people into the knowledge of their glorious legacy, the
          Visigoths, successors of the romans and defenders of the Iberian
          Peninsula.



          Dirk:
          They didn't do a particularly good job defending the Peninsula I
          think. I mean loosing the whole place in one battle? In fact, as you
          know the last Visigothic rulers were highly divided and parts of them
          have most likely called in the Moors. Also, by far most Visigoths
          lived well under the Moors.









          >This glorious, highly intelligent





          Dirk:
          I don't think that a people as such can be highly intelligent. Some
          of them will have been intelligent others will have been less so.







          and also from a cultural/religious point of view, interesting people
          who in modern times have most often been blemished by far too many
          people(specially from the church...).






          Dirk:
          I think they have mostly been glorified out of all proportion,
          especially by the church in Spain. Afterall the reconquista tried to
          envoke the Catholic Visigothic realm.












          For me it seems extremely reasonable to do all this (except for the
          division of Spain) considering the following things:
          In Spain there's today a growing awareness of their celtic heritage,
          very much expressed in e.g newly founded cultural groups and feasts.
          Euskera needs no further introduction considering the great
          importance that it already enjoys in today's Northern Spain.
          Regarding Iberian, well.. very little is known still today about this
          ancient language and apparently those who understand it, even a
          little bit, are all scientists or amateur scientists.
          > Arabic is taught in Spain at several institutions and besides,
          today's spanish urban citizens have a close contact with them and
          their culture considering the vast amount of arabic inmigrants that
          live in Spain today.
          >
          > Latin and the cultures that it spawned has, is and will most
          definitely always be taught at schools, universities and other
          institutions throughout Spain.
          >
          > It therefore leaves us with the Gothic discourse. As people in
          Spain are taught in history about the Romans, La Reconquista and the
          Moors(+ the very, very little that is also taught about the Iberians,
          Basques, Greeks, Phoenicians, Celts/Celtiberians, Alans and the
          Germanic tribes). Spanish is being taught, as well as other languages
          which have nothing much to do with the Peninsula such as English or
          French. Why can't Gothic be taught then?





          Dirk:
          I suppose it could be taught, but there will likely be very little
          interest, apart from students of Germanistics. The Goths who arrived
          on the Iberian peninsular around 500AD were already in the process of
          loosing their Germanic language. The Visigoths in Spain spoke at best
          only for about 1 generation Gothic if it all. A 6 century source
          calls them the Roman Goths, likely to show that they were mostly
          Latin speaking.







          Considering that they did establish themselves on the Peninsula,
          they ruled and influenced it forever by mixing themselves with the
          rest of the population.






          Dirk:
          Their cultural influence is undeniably very significant, but their
          ethnic input is hardly more than a drop in an ocean, outnumbered even
          by the input of other minorities like Jews, Berbers etc.










          They also provided to the heritage by leaving customs, sayings, words
          and other cultural traits. As mentioned, they ruled it and left
          behind them significant edifications such as churches, monuments
          etc... and even at least one town(!) such as Reccopolis.
          >
          > The goths and their descendants were crucial in all means in
          contributing to the outcome of what is known today as Spain.
          >
          > Therefore I call out to everyone out there (especialmente a
          aquellos de esta lista que viven en Espa�a), isn't there anything
          that can be done in order to promulge yet again the knowledge(e.g
          their language, history and religion) about AND of the Goths in
          Spain?
          >
          > 'Anything?! There must be!
          >






          Dirk:
          No harm in trying; but it would be an artificial reconstruction based
          on some sort of patriotism/nationalism and in disregard of the true
          ethnnic and cultural origins of Spain, which certainly is not
          Visigothic, but to which the Visigoths made a contribution.

          Cheers
          Dirk




          You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a blank email to .
          Yahoo! Groups Links







          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • F. E. Jiménez Díaz
          Hello Leonardo, I missed seeing your post for an entire week, but I m quite glad that I stumbled on to it this morning. Welcome back to the Gothic-L. I am glad
          Message 4 of 28 , May 26, 2004
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            Hello Leonardo,
            I missed seeing your post for an entire week, but I'm quite glad that
            I stumbled on to it this morning.
            Welcome back to the Gothic-L.
            I am glad to read of your interest in the Visigoths of the Spanish
            Gothia.

            >--- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Leonardo Frithunanths
            ><frithunanths_scandza@y...> >wrote:
            >
            >Hails Allum!
            >
            >After an absence of 3 years I've returned to this list, and
            apparently nothing much has >changed around here, thank God. :)
            >
            >I would like to make comment on what Oscargoth once wrote.
            >But regarding a possible division where one part would speak Spanish
            >and another one gothic, well, I'm not very much into the 'good old'
            >"Divide and conquer/rule" system, I think that we've seen too much
            >of that throughout history.
            >But I'm most definitely positive to that idea of awakening the
            >Spanish people into the knowledge of their glorious legacy,

            F.E.J.D writes:
            Leonardo, I think the idea of offering Spaniards more exposure to
            their Gothic heritage, language and culture is an interesting cause
            especially since at present there is a great resurgence of interest in
            those very things, however, I am convinced that what you state can
            best be accomplished by allowing your interest and enthusiasm to spark
            the same interest and enthusiasm in those around you. Get involved
            yourself and do not count on anyone else. In addition, along with your
            interest, you must also be ready to supply cogent, meaningful and
            relevant content that will make the undertaking reasonable to others.
            Therefore, read voraciously, learn and contrast the differing points
            of view and become well rounded in as many aspects of that scholarship
            as you can.
            It is quite true that knowing one's history can be an enriching and
            positive life changing experience. It informs our worldview, and
            allows us to imbue with value the things that we ordinarily take for
            granted. It also tends to ground us in the consensus of knowledge
            concerning such matters so that we are not fooled by the inadequately
            informed and/or purposely misleading opinions of other individuals.

            >the Visigoths, successors of the Romans and defenders of the Iberian
            >Peninsula.

            F.E.J.D. writes:
            I am also of the opinion that the Visigoths WERE able defenders of
            their people as the Clades Variana and other subsequent battles inform
            us. Like you, I believe that they continued to defend their people and
            homeland in Gothispania. They subdued the Vandals, Suebi, Byzantines
            and turned away the advances of the Franks and other menacing
            elements. Nonetheless, human frailty is always at work. Unfortunately,
            the success of the Moorish invasion can be attributed to certain
            Visigoth factions that conspired with certain other religious and/or
            ethnic elements whom the Visigoths had oppressed under Sisebut (among
            others). The latter elements allowed the passage of the Moors into
            Spain while Roderick was quelling an insurrection in the Basque
            highlands. By the time Roderick received the news, made retreat,
            resupplied, tasked his generals and arrived to do battle, the Moors
            had penetrated well into the south and were rested, rehearsed in their
            tactics and ready to wage war. The ensuing death of Roderick put the
            Visigoths into disarray but the Visigoths managed, to delay the
            Moorish advance for some months and to keep them from taking the
            territories in the northern mountains, the latter allowed the time and
            space to let a great host of nobles and warriors and their families to
            take refuge there. Thereafter, they were successful in keeping the
            Moors from taking those areas. Those that remained in Moorish occupied
            lands did not fare as well. The latter were subjected to extremely
            high taxes, curtailed freedoms, certain religious oppressions and even
            a yearly territorial tribute of 100 virgins "having blue eyes and
            golden hair" who were subjected to "forcible rape" in the caliph's
            harems. Fortunately, the latter practice was eliminated within a short
            time after a great revolt ensued. Such revolt and resistance to the
            Moors was revelatory of the things to come. As regards conditions and
            relations under the Moors, John Crow states, "Quite unlike the
            Visigoths, the Moors were never able effectively to establish their
            dominion over Catholic Spain. By the eleventh century the battle lines
            between the two religions were clearly drawn, and by the thirteenth
            century (only the southern parts of Iberia were yet occupied by the
            Moors, [mine]) these lines had become a part of the national folk and
            literary tradition. Hence, the particular and very Christian point of
            view, which comes across to us from the ballads about Rodereik, a
            feeble monarch who had been turned into a national legend, indicates
            to us how oral tradition faithfully caught and reflected the
            polarization of Spanish resistance to Islam (sic), (Crow, 1985). Here
            I make two points. 1). Even after the defeat at Guadalete, resistance
            to the invaders was consistently demonstrated. 2). Despite the defeat
            at Guadalete (which must NOT be seen as an end to Visigothic identity)
            the exiled Visigoths in the mountains of Asturias (quite aware of
            their duty to defend) remained steadfast in protecting their people
            and homeland. In fact, only seven years after the Moorish invasion a
            horde of nobles and warriors, the great majority being Visigoths from
            the previous Toledan kingdom or their direct descendants (commanded
            under Pelagius - grandson of Reccesvinth), successfully expelled
            Munuza, the Moorish provincial governor from the footsteps of the
            northern highlands. Thereafter, the defeat of Alkama at Covadonga
            sealed the beginning of the 700-year long but eventually successful
            struggle of the Reconquista. Thus, the origins of the Reconquista
            itself can be attributed to Pelagius, Reccesvinth's grandson who by
            example in leadership and political savvy was able to lead the remnant
            Visigoths and amalgamate the forces of the Vascones and Celtic people
            of Galicia and Asturias against the Moorish enemy. The latter was the
            only way that massive enough forces could successfully be mustered
            against the enemy. It is important to note that after Covadonga and
            after all Moorish forces were expelled from northern Spain the council
            of Albelda (822CE) records NOT CHURCH LEADERS or some other vicarious
            entity but Alfons II (great-great-great-grandson of Visigothic King
            Reccared instituting OMNEM GOTORUM ORDINEM SICUT TOLETO FUERAT - THE
            WHOLE ORGANIZATION OF THE GOTHS JUST AS IT WAS AT TOLEDO. What needs
            to be understood here is that the singular defeat at Guadalete
            (especially under its particular circumstances) cannot define and
            fault a lack of resolve on the part of the Visigoths to defend person
            and homeland. Rather, it is evident in the above stated events that
            there was a continuation and affirmation of Visigothic identity by the
            descendents of Visigoths in the royal lineage, nobility and warrior
            ranks while exiled in Asturias as well as a resolve to defend person
            and homeland (especially against the Moorish invaders) for centuries
            well after 711.

            >This glorious, highly intelligent and also from a cultural/religious
            >point of view, interesting people –cut-

            F.E.J.D. writes:
            Leonardo, I am convinced that all humans are relatively intelligent;
            also, the word glorious is too subjective here and must be embraced as
            a matter of opinion. Nonetheless the Visigoths must be commended for
            learning to survive against great odds, their incredible journey
            through almost an entire continent, their conquests; legal codes,
            artistic and architectural endeavors which devised the forerunner to
            Romanesque architecture and the flying buttress as well as their
            relentless pursuit for liberty, their contribution to the preservation
            of certain Germanic and Roman institutions through a thoughtful
            synthesis of each other's ideas and most importantly, the mysterious
            glue that held all of the latter and their people together through so
            much hardship for so many years. --- Wow! No wonder we are still
            asking questions about them…

            >who in modern times have most often been blemished by far too many
            >people(specially from the church...).

            F.E.J.D. writes:
            Leonardo, (Very Broadly) it seems (in Spain) there have been two
            ideological camps as concerns the Visigoths. One camp sees them
            generally as having made positive contributions; it weighs their pros
            and cons in a relatively balanced way. The other - realizes their
            contributions but in the end sees them as uncouth barbarian
            interlopers that destroyed the primacy of Roman civilization. The
            latter I attribute to certain historical biases found in the faculties
            of certain universities. They tend to worship everything Roman and
            chafe when dealing with Germanic contributions. They fail to see that
            what the Visigoth's accomplished is part of their very loins.
            Fortunately it is a minority view. Nonetheless, as has been already
            stated the Germanic contribution be it genetic, artistic or
            intellectual is inescapable.

            >For me it seems extremely reasonable to do all this (except for the
            >division of Spain) considering the following things:
            >In Spain there's today a growing awareness of their celtic heritage,
            >very much expressed in e.g newly founded cultural groups and feasts.
            >Euskera needs no further introduction considering the great
            >importance that it already enjoys in today's Northern Spain.
            >Regarding Iberian, well.. very little is known still today about this
            >ancient language and apparently those who understand it, even a
            >little bit, are all scientists or amateur scientists. Arabic is
            >taught in Spain at several Institutions and besides, today's spanish
            >urban citizens have a close contact with them and their culture
            >considering the vast amount of arabic inmigrants that live in Spain
            >today.

            >Latin and the cultures that it spawned has, is and will most
            >definitely always be taught at schools, universities and other
            >institutions throughout Spain.

            >It therefore leaves us with the Gothic discourse. As people in Spain
            >are taught in history about the Romans, La Reconquista and the
            >Moors(+ the very, very little that is also taught about the Iberians,
            >Basques, Greeks, Phoenicians, Celts/Celtiberians, Alans and the
            >Germanic tribes).

            F.E.J.D. writes:
            Leonardo, the latter is part of the bias that I just explained.

            >Spanish is being taught, as well as other languages which have
            >nothing much to do with the Peninsula such as English or French. Why
            >can't Gothic be taught then?


            F.E.J.D. writes:
            Interestingly, Leonardo, I know of someone who is in the process of
            home schooling his children and he and his wife have been teaching
            them Old English and Gothic. The children are incredibly bright and
            have already mastered several known languages. In my own experience,
            language is best learned at an early age, and as I found out while
            taking the course anthropological linguistics during my baccalaureate,
            it develops our "metalinguistic awareness", which further serves us in
            attaining mastery over yet other languages. -- Nonetheless Leonardo,
            language is only part of the whole; a comprehensive understanding of
            the Goths and Visigoths as well as other relevant Germanic tribes must
            encompass all aspects of those cultures. To that end I wonder if a
            (less passive) forum should be created where members are more actively
            led, engaged, and encouraged to publish and/or discuss good articles
            and anecdotes on relevant Germanic and Gothic/Visigothic languages,
            culture, history, anthropology and all other aspects of relevant
            Germanic and Gothic/Visigothic scholarship. The group should also have
            a web page and also accommodate people posting in other languages.
            Perhaps I'll look into creating such a list myself. My only concern
            would be not to negatively impact this lists member base. I do not
            think it would. Also, my suggestion should not be construed as
            negative criticism of the (Gothic-L). In fact, I corresponded with the
            founders before they created it was the third person to join after the
            owners. Thereafter, I announced this groups formation in "Oldnorsenet"
            (an old defunct forum) and quite a few joined-up forming the group's
            earliest member base. Rather, this list could remain just as it is,
            especially with its strong expertise as concerns questions about the
            Gothic language for which it is an excellent resource and with which
            it is often preoccupied.

            >Considering that they did establish themselves on the Peninsula, they
            >ruled and influenced it forever by mixing themselves with the rest of
            >the population.

            F.E.J.D. writes:
            Presently Leonardo, genetic haplotyping has minimized the inaccuracy
            of population studies, which relied solely on historical data,
            craniometry and typology and other circuitous and highly
            interpretational methods. No longer do we have to accept unreliable
            and/or sometimes "ulterior" subjective opinions on such things as the
            genetic contribution of people groups such as Visigoths (the largest
            of ALL Germanic tribes) to the Spanish population. Simply by
            understanding, contrasting and comparing the relevant haplogroups and
            haplotypes within a given population one is able to tell if there has
            been any extraneous admixture. It is interesting however that before
            there was haplotyping it had been thought (quite correctly) by many
            scholars, (including Bury), that the Visigoths numbered approximately
            300,000 in a peninsula of (at the time) [3,500,000 inhabitants
            (Kenneth W. Harl, Tulane U. 1998)]. Likewise, (Stanley Payne, 1973)
            concluded that the same number existed after the time of Alaric II
            (484-507); a ratio of (11.66) to (1). The later ratio is in fact close
            to the present ratio of African-Americans to European Americans in the
            U.S, a sizable element in the overall population. Even so, it is
            further thought that despite pressures from disease etc; the
            Visigothic law of "thirds", (where 2/3 of each Hispano-Roman villa was
            confiscated by Visigoths), would have given the Visigoths a greater
            advantage in increasing their numbers, that, since the ability to
            raise comestibles by having more land and better soils would have
            favored Visigoth families over those who had poor soil and less land
            and could not raise as much food. Furthermore, by projecting the
            previous trend to 711CE (a period of some 200 years) it is quite
            conceivable that the Visigoths could have narrowed the previously
            stated ratio to as little as 10 to 1. You must also notice that I have
            not factored-in other people Germanic people already in the peninsula,
            they are simply not included as part of the Visigothic population,
            namely the Suebi, which probably numbered around 80,000, and the
            remnant Vandals that remained in Spain or returned to the Balearic
            Islands and elsewhere after their ruinous mission to the south,
            however these were probably few. – Nonetheless, underpinning the best
            estimate of Visigoth admixture in Spain is the presence of suspect
            genetic signatures in the Y-chromosome and/or mtDNA of extant
            individuals where an inference may be made. The latter is in the
            process of being collected from the extant populations of (Spain,
            Pomerania, Gotland, and Southern Sweden as well as other suspected
            homelands. It is also being collected from bone found in known
            Gothic/Visigothic necropoli confirmed during archaeological excavation
            through sartorial fashion, jewelry and other relevant artifacts.
            Unfortunately, this study has been and will be underway for quite
            sometime since it is quite comprehensive and the collection and
            amplification of ancient materials is a slow process and/or has to be
            done with great care and covers such an extensive geographical area.
            Similar but smaller studies have been done by Dr. Brian Sykes to
            estimate the Norse Viking admixture in Britain and Iceland. Dr. Sykes,
            author of the "Seven Daughters of Eve" (a fantastic read that I highly
            recommend).

            [Explanation follows] (During the Last Glacial Maximum, about 18,000
            years ago, the people bearing the R1b haplogroup over wintered in
            Northern Spain (a refugium). After the glacial retreat about 12,000
            years before present, R1b began a migration to the north in large
            numbers and to the east in lesser numbers. "R1b probably arrived in
            Spain from the east some 30,000 years ago among the Paleolithic or
            "old stone age" peoples and is considered to be aboriginal to Europe.
            They absorbed and/or replaced the handful of inhabitants living in
            those areas. R1b is most concentrated in the population of the Basques
            and nearby areas of Northern Spain as well as Wales and western
            Ireland. It is at nearly 100% in those areas likely due to their
            geographical isolation curtailing immigration. In other words, the
            latter populations are among the most homogenous or (unmixed)
            populations in Europe, almost exclusively comprised of the R1b
            haplogroup and having almost no other haplogroup signatures in them.
            Further east R1b attains a distribution of 70% in the Low-countries
            and about 55% in places thought to be the contributing populations of
            the Anglo-Saxon and Danish tribes and also thins-out in its
            northernmost cline- Norway, where it is at 30%. The latter is current
            standard knowledge in the DNA concordances of Europe and well
            supported in a plethora of studies by numerous universities. "Everyone
            who has the R1b is a descendant in the male line from an individual
            known as "the patriarch" since his descendants account for over 40% of
            all the chromosomes of Europe. This haplogroup is characteristic of
            the Basques whose language is probably that of the first R1b, and who
            are genetically the closest to the original R1b population (which
            probably amounted to only a few thousand individuals)." (Source: Dr.
            David Faux). Now Leonardo – In order to contrast the genetic
            Contribution that may have come by way of other groups such as the
            Visigoths against the Spanish population at large, it is important to
            understand the aforementioned, as well as the signatures of nearby
            populations. However, the genetic neighborhood around Spain is either
            very similar (in the case of western France and the British Isles
            declining to the north and east, or radically different such as in the
            case of the populations of Northern Africa which originate from
            distinctly different patrilineages. To that end I include the
            following citations and several of my own findings: 1). "It is now
            understood that the Strait of Gibraltar seems to have acted as a
            strong (although not complete) barrier to gene flow…" (Bosch et al.,
            Am J Hum Genet, 2001) . 2). "The majority of Iberian lineages resemble
            those of central and northern Europe (Richards et al. 1996). 3). "It
            seems therefore that the genetic contribution by the Moorish presence
            in the peninsula, ((which had been considered by some as
            substantial)), (Reyment, 1983)…((has left little trace in the modern
            mtDNA gene pool))." (B. C. Sykes et al. 1996). 4). "The Islamic rule
            of Spain, which began in A.D. 711 and lasted almost 8 centuries, left
            only a minor contribution to the current Iberian Y-chromosome pool."
            (Bertranpetit et al. 1995; Côrte-Real et al. 1996; Pinto et al. 1996;
            Salas et al. 1998). In fact Leonardo, signatures from other
            populations only appear as tiny fractions of the Spanish population.
            For example, haplogroup U6 (A Berber signature) is only found at very
            low frequencies: 5). …"it has been found in 3 of 196 Portuguese and 2
            of 96 Galicians"… In view of the latter "MEAGER" contribution I am
            always bewildered why certain individuals who's knowledge about Spain
            or molecular anthropology is all but nil will go out of their way to
            make it seem that Spain's genetic makeup is largely Moorish; that,
            when the latter assertion (as has been shown) is scientifically
            untenable. I can only think it is an ulterior motive. Rather, the
            numbers of Berber lineages have several very good explanations. 1).
            The presence of U6 is an extremely ancient contribution dating to
            45,000YBP. This haplotype originated in western Asia and a handful of
            these individuals migrated to an almost empty Iberia just before the
            R1b haplogroup arrived there. Thus, many U6 signatures are echoes of
            an ancient handful of individuals living in Iberia prior to the LGM
            (last glacial maximum). 2). Depending on genetic distance it could
            also be the signature left over from the previously stated "tribute of
            Virgins" which took place in the areas where the U6 haplogroup is
            found). [Explanation]: It is well known that some of the women taken
            were returned to their families, either by the payment of ransom or
            during the rebellion of the local Christians (who found the practice
            intolerable). Some of the women had already been raped. Thus, it is
            very plausible since the "U6 signature is completely absent from all
            Andalusians tested and again absent in 162 other Iberians comprising
            the statistical population (5). (Bertranpetit et al. 1995; Côrte-Real
            et al. 1996; Pinto et al. 1996; Salas et al. 1998), and yet present in
            areas where the tribute took place that it is related to a genetic
            contribution through the raped victims. There is yet a further
            explanation. There is curious anecdotal and historical evidence as
            concerns the populace in the stated area, which does not come as a
            surprise to those of us that have invested considerable time studying
            the Spanish populace. Here I mean the "Maragatos", or Moorish-Goths.
            The latter are well attested in an old article by George Borrow
            (1803-1881) a British evangelist and travel writer of that time.
            (Please see the University of Adelaide Library Electronic Texts
            Collection.) Borrow states, "The Maragatos are perhaps the most
            singular caste to be found amongst the checquered population of Spain.
            They have their own peculiar customs and dress, and never intermarry
            with the Spaniards…There can be little doubt that they are a remnant
            of those Goths who sided with the Moors on their invasion of Spain,
            and who adopted their customs, and manner of dress, which, with the
            exception of the first, are still to a considerable degree retained by
            them. It is, however, evident that their blood has at no time mingled
            with that of the wild children of the desert, for scarcely amongst the
            hills of Norway would you find figures and faces more essentially
            Gothic than those of the Maragatos. They are strong athletic men, but
            loutish and heavy, and their features, though for the most part well
            formed, are vacant and devoid of expression. They are slow and plain
            of speech, and those eloquent and imaginative sallies so common in the
            conversation of other Spaniards, seldom or never escape them; they
            have, moreover, a coarse thick pronunciation, and when you hear them
            speak, you almost imagine that it is some German or English peasant
            attempting to express himself in the language of the Peninsula
            (Borrow, 1840)" The latter is obviously only anecdotal, however,
            recent findings have shed great scientific light on the Maragatos. In
            the new study; Mitochondrial DNA characterization of European
            isolates: the Maragatos from Spain, (Larruga JM, Diez F, Pinto et al.)
            their uniqueness becomes clear. The study states; Mitochondrial DNA
            analysis confirms that Maragatos from Spain are a genetically isolated
            human group. Genetic distances between Maragatos and the comparison
            samples are significantly different even with the Leon sample
            (P<0.001), which shares the same geographic area as the Maragatos.
            Although the north-African haplogroup U6 is present in them, their
            attributed Berber origin is weakened, as this haplogroup is also
            detected in surrounding populations with which, in addition, Maragatos
            have the smaller genetic distances." The later only a vestige echo
            from 45,000 years BP of the meager presence of U6 in the population
            before the R1b became ubiquitous and homogenous in the peninsula. The
            presence of Neolithic haplogroups (meaning haplogroups extraneous to
            Iberia and ubiquitous in such places as the purported homeland of the
            Goths where the R1a and I haplogroups and its haplotypes enjoy wide
            distribution) in this sample suggests that their isolation culture was
            not absolute until recent times." Thus the Maragatos may be an
            isolated extant population perhaps the direct descendants of a faction
            of Visigoths that for certain reasons remained separate from the
            surrounding populace. At the moment however, it is too soon to
            disclose much more or arrive at any conclusions as pertains conclusive
            estimates of Visigoth genetic contribution in Iberia. The sampling
            must be completed and all the markers contrasted before conclusions
            are finalized.

            >They also provided to the heritage by leaving customs, sayings, words
            >and other cultural traits. As mentioned, they ruled it and left
            >behind them significant edifications such as churches, monuments
            >etc... and even at least one town(!) such as Reccopolis.

            F.E.J.D. writes:
            Concerning the Goths, Lucien Musset wrote, "…their ensuing prestige
            among other Germans was expressed in the epic tradition for over a
            thousand years". Undoubtedly, the Goths have been an ever-present
            preoccupation in the minds of some Europeans since the beginning of
            modern Europe.

            Lastly Leonardo, Do not let others dissuade you from learning about
            your Gothic heritage. The truth is that the Visigoths are simply and
            undeniably an important part of Spanish history and part of the
            Spanish populace. Those that would have you think otherwise by mere
            opinion are sure to be uninformed or simply ignorant of history or
            have sinister ulterior motives for doing so.

            Cheers,
            Frithunanths.
            (Fernando Elatheus Jiménez-Díaz)
          • faltin2001
            ... that ... Spanish ... in ... spark ... your ... others. ... scholarship ... inadequately ... Iberian ... You mean the Clades Variana in 9AD? the Cherusci
            Message 5 of 28 , May 27, 2004
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              --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, F. E. Jiménez Díaz <visigoth@a...>
              wrote:
              > Hello Leonardo,
              > I missed seeing your post for an entire week, but I'm quite glad
              that
              > I stumbled on to it this morning.
              > Welcome back to the Gothic-L.
              > I am glad to read of your interest in the Visigoths of the Spanish
              > Gothia.
              >
              > >--- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Leonardo Frithunanths
              > ><frithunanths_scandza@y...> >wrote:
              > >
              > >Hails Allum!
              > >
              > >After an absence of 3 years I've returned to this list, and
              > apparently nothing much has >changed around here, thank God. :)
              > >
              > >I would like to make comment on what Oscargoth once wrote.
              > >But regarding a possible division where one part would speak
              Spanish
              > >and another one gothic, well, I'm not very much into the 'good old'
              > >"Divide and conquer/rule" system, I think that we've seen too much
              > >of that throughout history.
              > >But I'm most definitely positive to that idea of awakening the
              > >Spanish people into the knowledge of their glorious legacy,
              >
              > F.E.J.D writes:
              > Leonardo, I think the idea of offering Spaniards more exposure to
              > their Gothic heritage, language and culture is an interesting cause
              > especially since at present there is a great resurgence of interest
              in
              > those very things, however, I am convinced that what you state can
              > best be accomplished by allowing your interest and enthusiasm to
              spark
              > the same interest and enthusiasm in those around you. Get involved
              > yourself and do not count on anyone else. In addition, along with
              your
              > interest, you must also be ready to supply cogent, meaningful and
              > relevant content that will make the undertaking reasonable to
              others.
              > Therefore, read voraciously, learn and contrast the differing points
              > of view and become well rounded in as many aspects of that
              scholarship
              > as you can.
              > It is quite true that knowing one's history can be an enriching and
              > positive life changing experience. It informs our worldview, and
              > allows us to imbue with value the things that we ordinarily take for
              > granted. It also tends to ground us in the consensus of knowledge
              > concerning such matters so that we are not fooled by the
              inadequately
              > informed and/or purposely misleading opinions of other individuals.
              >
              > >the Visigoths, successors of the Romans and defenders of the
              Iberian
              > >Peninsula.
              >
              > F.E.J.D. writes:
              > I am also of the opinion that the Visigoths WERE able defenders of
              > their people as the Clades Variana



              You mean 'the' Clades Variana in 9AD? the Cherusci (not Visigoths)
              against the Romans?








              and other subsequent battles inform
              > us. Like you, I believe that they continued to defend their people
              and
              > homeland in Gothispania.



              What is Gothispania?









              > They subdued the Vandals, Suebi, Byzantines



              The defeated both Vandals and Suebi in their capacity as Roman
              federate troops, and spend decades battling with the Byzantines.









              > and turned away the advances of the Franks and other menacing
              > elements.




              Like in 507AD? In 507 the Visigoths were defeated decisively by the
              Franks and forced to retreat to Spain.









              Nonetheless, human frailty is always at work. Unfortunately,
              > the success of the Moorish invasion can be attributed to certain
              > Visigoth factions that conspired with certain other religious and/or
              > ethnic elements whom the Visigoths had oppressed under Sisebut
              (among
              > others). The latter elements allowed the passage of the Moors into
              > Spain while Roderick was quelling an insurrection in the Basque
              > highlands. By the time Roderick received the news, made retreat,
              > resupplied, tasked his generals and arrived to do battle, the Moors
              > had penetrated well into the south and were rested, rehearsed in
              their
              > tactics and ready to wage war. The ensuing death of Roderick put the
              > Visigoths into disarray but the Visigoths managed, to delay the
              > Moorish advance for some months and to keep them from taking the
              > territories in the northern mountains, the latter allowed the time
              and
              > space to let a great host of nobles and warriors and their families
              to
              > take refuge there.



              Where did you take that from? Most Visigothic nobles had no reason to
              abandon their estates, because the Moors were mostly glad to let them
              stay on as owners.








              > Thereafter, they were successful in keeping the
              > Moors from taking those areas.



              It was probably mostly the typically independent minded mountain
              people who kept the Muslims out. The Muslims would probably have been
              able to take the regions, but they had to content with uprisings of
              Berbers, draught etc.







              > Those that remained in Moorish occupied
              > lands did not fare as well.




              Most seemed to have fared very well among the Muslims, marring into
              Muslim families, retaining their estates.












              The latter were subjected to extremely
              > high taxes, curtailed freedoms, certain religious oppressions and
              even
              > a yearly territorial tribute of 100 virgins "having blue eyes and
              > golden hair" who were subjected to "forcible rape" in the caliph's
              > harems. Fortunately, the latter practice was eliminated within a
              short
              > time after a great revolt ensued.



              This sounds very much like a propaganda story. Sources?







              Such revolt and resistance to the
              > Moors was revelatory of the things to come. As regards conditions
              and
              > relations under the Moors, John Crow states, "Quite unlike the
              > Visigoths, the Moors were never able effectively to establish their
              > dominion over Catholic Spain. By the eleventh century the battle
              lines
              > between the two religions were clearly drawn, and by the thirteenth
              > century (only the southern parts of Iberia were yet occupied by the
              > Moors, [mine]) these lines had become a part of the national folk
              and
              > literary tradition. Hence, the particular and very Christian point
              of
              > view, which comes across to us from the ballads about Rodereik, a
              > feeble monarch who had been turned into a national legend, indicates
              > to us how oral tradition faithfully caught and reflected the
              > polarization of Spanish resistance to Islam (sic), (Crow, 1985).
              Here
              > I make two points. 1). Even after the defeat at Guadalete,
              resistance
              > to the invaders was consistently demonstrated. 2). Despite the
              defeat
              > at Guadalete (which must NOT be seen as an end to Visigothic
              identity)
              > the exiled Visigoths in the mountains of Asturias (quite aware of
              > their duty to defend) remained steadfast in protecting their people
              > and homeland. In fact, only seven years after the Moorish invasion a
              > horde of nobles and warriors, the great majority being Visigoths
              from
              > the previous Toledan kingdom or their direct descendants (commanded
              > under Pelagius - grandson of Reccesvinth),




              Pelagius' identity is mostly unkown. That he was grandson of
              Reccesvind is speculation at best.







              successfully expelled
              > Munuza, the Moorish provincial governor from the footsteps of the
              > northern highlands. Thereafter, the defeat of Alkama at Covadonga
              > sealed the beginning of the 700-year long but eventually successful
              > struggle of the Reconquista. Thus, the origins of the Reconquista
              > itself can be attributed to Pelagius, Reccesvinth's grandson who by
              > example in leadership and political savvy was able to lead the
              remnant
              > Visigoths and amalgamate the forces of the Vascones and Celtic
              people
              > of Galicia and Asturias against the Moorish enemy. The latter was
              the
              > only way that massive enough forces could successfully be mustered
              > against the enemy. It is important to note that after Covadonga and
              > after all Moorish forces were expelled from northern Spain the
              council
              > of Albelda (822CE) records NOT CHURCH LEADERS or some other
              vicarious
              > entity but Alfons II (great-great-great-grandson of Visigothic King
              > Reccared instituting






              To get from Alfons II to Reccared, you probably need a couple for
              more 'great-greats-'. Also, the exact decend of Reccared is not
              clear. Such claims to great ancestry should be seen mostly as
              political statements rather than geneological accuracy.







              OMNEM GOTORUM ORDINEM SICUT TOLETO FUERAT - THE
              > WHOLE ORGANIZATION OF THE GOTHS JUST AS IT WAS AT TOLEDO. What needs
              > to be understood here is that the singular defeat at Guadalete
              > (especially under its particular circumstances) cannot define and
              > fault a lack of resolve on the part of the Visigoths to defend
              person
              > and homeland. Rather, it is evident in the above stated events that
              > there was a continuation and affirmation of Visigothic identity by
              the
              > descendents of Visigoths in the royal lineage, nobility and warrior
              > ranks while exiled in Asturias as well as a resolve to defend person
              > and homeland (especially against the Moorish invaders) for centuries
              > well after 711.




              I think this is mostly a recreated identity. Gothic identity in Spain
              was vanishing already in the course of the 7th century under
              Visighothic rule. The various council documents show that the Goths
              regarded themselves as Hispanics already at that time.







              >
              > >This glorious, highly intelligent and also from a
              cultural/religious
              > >point of view, interesting people –cut-
              >
              > F.E.J.D. writes:
              > Leonardo, I am convinced that all humans are relatively intelligent;
              > also, the word glorious is too subjective here and must be embraced
              as
              > a matter of opinion. Nonetheless the Visigoths must be commended for
              > learning to survive against great odds, their incredible journey
              > through almost an entire continent, their conquests; legal codes,
              > artistic and architectural endeavors which devised the forerunner to
              > Romanesque architecture and the flying buttress as well as their
              > relentless pursuit for liberty, their contribution to the
              preservation
              > of certain Germanic and Roman institutions through a thoughtful
              > synthesis of each other's ideas and most importantly, the mysterious
              > glue that held all of the latter and their people together through
              so
              > much hardship for so many years. --- Wow! No wonder we are still
              > asking questions about them…




              Now you are surprised about their greatness and glory yourself aren't
              you? ;-) I wonder how any human being on earth can compare to the
              mighty, intelligent, thoughtfull, glorious master race of the
              Visigoths?



              >
              > >who in modern times have most often been blemished by far too many
              > >people(specially from the church...).
              >
              > F.E.J.D. writes:
              > Leonardo, (Very Broadly) it seems (in Spain) there have been two
              > ideological camps as concerns the Visigoths. One camp sees them
              > generally as having made positive contributions; it weighs their
              pros
              > and cons in a relatively balanced way. The other - realizes their
              > contributions but in the end sees them as uncouth barbarian
              > interlopers that destroyed the primacy of Roman civilization. The
              > latter I attribute to certain historical biases found in the
              faculties
              > of certain universities. They tend to worship everything Roman and
              > chafe when dealing with Germanic contributions. They fail to see
              that
              > what the Visigoth's accomplished is part of their very loins.
              > Fortunately it is a minority view. Nonetheless, as has been already
              > stated the Germanic contribution be it genetic, artistic or
              > intellectual is inescapable.
              >





              At least their genetic contribution to modern Spaniards will have
              been rather minute.

              Before you can even start to understand the contribution of the
              Visigoths to the hisotry and culture of the Spanish peninsula, I
              think you have to drop all this partiotic glorification. The truth,
              as often, lies somewhere between your wishful thinking and those who
              discount everything non-Roman.

              Certainly, the Visigoths had to overcome great difficulties. After
              king Euric, they were cast into disarray. Chased from Gaul by the
              Franks and remaining so weak that the Ostrogoths had to run Spain for
              them for a while. Much of the 6th century Visigothic reign remained
              chaotic. Only at the very end of the 6th century do we see a
              resurgens of Visigothic kingship in Spain. Their conversion to
              Catholicism at the time was certainly helpful, but they nontheless
              failed to rally the Spanish population as a whole. Large parts of
              Spanish society, including many Visigothic nobles prefered foreign
              rule to that of their own kings, which inevitably led to the
              catastroph in 711.


              Cheers
              Dirk
            • faltin2001
              ... the ... There is so much wrong with this text that I point out only a few things. The Visigoths were certainly not the largest of all Germanic tribes.
              Message 6 of 28 , May 27, 2004
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                >
                > F.E.J.D. writes:
                > Presently Leonardo, genetic haplotyping has minimized the inaccuracy
                > of population studies, which relied solely on historical data,
                > craniometry and typology and other circuitous and highly
                > interpretational methods. No longer do we have to accept unreliable
                > and/or sometimes "ulterior" subjective opinions on such things as
                the
                > genetic contribution of people groups such as Visigoths (the largest
                > of ALL Germanic tribes)




                There is so much wrong with this text that I point out only a few
                things. The Visigoths were certainly not the largest of all Germanic
                tribes. Franks, Saxons, Alamannians, Anglo-Saxons, Bavarians and the
                North Germanic peoples were all much larger than the Visigoths.












                to the Spanish population. Simply by
                > understanding, contrasting and comparing the relevant haplogroups
                and
                > haplotypes within a given population one is able to tell if there
                has
                > been any extraneous admixture. It is interesting however that before
                > there was haplotyping it had been thought (quite correctly) by many
                > scholars, (including Bury), that the Visigoths numbered
                approximately
                > 300,000 in a peninsula of (at the time)






                This is likely far to high a number. More like 100,000 perhaps more
                and many of them were, according to the historical sources, hangers
                on. Runaway Roman peasants, slaves, Roman mine workers and so on, who
                joined the Visigoths on their way to Spain.







                [3,500,000 inhabitants
                > (Kenneth W. Harl, Tulane U. 1998)]. Likewise, (Stanley Payne, 1973)
                > concluded that the same number existed after the time of Alaric II
                > (484-507); a ratio of (11.66) to (1). The later ratio is in fact
                close
                > to the present ratio of African-Americans to European Americans in
                the
                > U.S, a sizable element in the overall population. Even so, it is
                > further thought that despite pressures from disease etc; the
                > Visigothic law of "thirds", (where 2/3 of each Hispano-Roman villa
                was
                > confiscated by Visigoths), would have given the Visigoths a greater
                > advantage in increasing their numbers, that, since the ability to
                > raise comestibles by having more land and better soils would have
                > favored Visigoth families over those who had poor soil and less land
                > and could not raise as much food. Furthermore, by projecting the
                > previous trend to 711CE (a period of some 200 years) it is quite
                > conceivable that the Visigoths could have narrowed the previously
                > stated ratio to as little as 10 to 1. You must also notice that I
                have
                > not factored-in other people Germanic people already in the
                peninsula,
                > they are simply not included as part of the Visigothic population,
                > namely the Suebi, which probably numbered around 80,000, and the
                > remnant Vandals that remained in Spain or returned to the Balearic
                > Islands and elsewhere after their ruinous mission to the south,
                > however these were probably few. – Nonetheless, underpinning the
                best
                > estimate of Visigoth admixture in Spain is the presence of suspect
                > genetic signatures in the Y-chromosome and/or mtDNA of extant
                > individuals where an inference may be made. The latter is in the
                > process of being collected from the extant populations of (Spain,
                > Pomerania, Gotland, and Southern Sweden as well as other suspected
                > homelands.






                One cannot, but smile and shake ones head at such nonsense.
                I am sure you will succeed in calculating the Spanish into a Germanic
                people, strange only that most of them just don't look the part;-)

                Dirk
              • Jorge Alexandre S G
                It was very comforting to read this superb and scientifically based posting, which clears up the other one which arrogantly belittled the Visigothic
                Message 7 of 28 , May 27, 2004
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                  It was very comforting to read this superb and scientifically based posting, which clears up the other one which arrogantly belittled the Visigothic contribution to the Iberic Peninsula. It seems that many scholars nowadays are actually politically biased ,which shows in itself the great danger of science being seen as truely neutral, as I once learned when I took one year of Social Sciences ,cause its objectivity is only an ideal,its being highly influenced by many subjective and political reasons.
                  Congratulations mr Díaz, you are a true sage .
                  Jorge Alexandre

                  F. E. Jiménez Díaz <visigoth@...> wrote:
                  Hello Leonardo,
                  I missed seeing your post for an entire week, but I'm quite glad that
                  I stumbled on to it this morning.
                  Welcome back to the Gothic-L.
                  I am glad to read of your interest in the Visigoths of the Spanish
                  Gothia.

                  >--- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Leonardo Frithunanths
                  ><frithunanths_scandza@y...> >wrote:
                  >
                  >Hails Allum!
                  >
                  >After an absence of 3 years I've returned to this list, and
                  apparently nothing much has >changed around here, thank God. :)
                  >
                  >I would like to make comment on what Oscargoth once wrote.
                  >But regarding a possible division where one part would speak Spanish
                  >and another one gothic, well, I'm not very much into the 'good old'
                  >"Divide and conquer/rule" system, I think that we've seen too much
                  >of that throughout history.
                  >But I'm most definitely positive to that idea of awakening the
                  >Spanish people into the knowledge of their glorious legacy,

                  F.E.J.D writes:
                  Leonardo, I think the idea of offering Spaniards more exposure to
                  their Gothic heritage, language and culture is an interesting cause
                  especially since at present there is a great resurgence of interest in
                  those very things, however, I am convinced that what you state can
                  best be accomplished by allowing your interest and enthusiasm to spark
                  the same interest and enthusiasm in those around you. Get involved
                  yourself and do not count on anyone else. In addition, along with your
                  interest, you must also be ready to supply cogent, meaningful and
                  relevant content that will make the undertaking reasonable to others.
                  Therefore, read voraciously, learn and contrast the differing points
                  of view and become well rounded in as many aspects of that scholarship
                  as you can.
                  It is quite true that knowing one's history can be an enriching and
                  positive life changing experience. It informs our worldview, and
                  allows us to imbue with value the things that we ordinarily take for
                  granted. It also tends to ground us in the consensus of knowledge
                  concerning such matters so that we are not fooled by the inadequately
                  informed and/or purposely misleading opinions of other individuals.

                  >the Visigoths, successors of the Romans and defenders of the Iberian
                  >Peninsula.

                  F.E.J.D. writes:
                  I am also of the opinion that the Visigoths WERE able defenders of
                  their people as the Clades Variana and other subsequent battles inform
                  us. Like you, I believe that they continued to defend their people and
                  homeland in Gothispania. They subdued the Vandals, Suebi, Byzantines
                  and turned away the advances of the Franks and other menacing
                  elements. Nonetheless, human frailty is always at work. Unfortunately,
                  the success of the Moorish invasion can be attributed to certain
                  Visigoth factions that conspired with certain other religious and/or
                  ethnic elements whom the Visigoths had oppressed under Sisebut (among
                  others). The latter elements allowed the passage of the Moors into
                  Spain while Roderick was quelling an insurrection in the Basque
                  highlands. By the time Roderick received the news, made retreat,
                  resupplied, tasked his generals and arrived to do battle, the Moors
                  had penetrated well into the south and were rested, rehearsed in their
                  tactics and ready to wage war. The ensuing death of Roderick put the
                  Visigoths into disarray but the Visigoths managed, to delay the
                  Moorish advance for some months and to keep them from taking the
                  territories in the northern mountains, the latter allowed the time and
                  space to let a great host of nobles and warriors and their families to
                  take refuge there. Thereafter, they were successful in keeping the
                  Moors from taking those areas. Those that remained in Moorish occupied
                  lands did not fare as well. The latter were subjected to extremely
                  high taxes, curtailed freedoms, certain religious oppressions and even
                  a yearly territorial tribute of 100 virgins "having blue eyes and
                  golden hair" who were subjected to "forcible rape" in the caliph's
                  harems. Fortunately, the latter practice was eliminated within a short
                  time after a great revolt ensued. Such revolt and resistance to the
                  Moors was revelatory of the things to come. As regards conditions and
                  relations under the Moors, John Crow states, "Quite unlike the
                  Visigoths, the Moors were never able effectively to establish their
                  dominion over Catholic Spain. By the eleventh century the battle lines
                  between the two religions were clearly drawn, and by the thirteenth
                  century (only the southern parts of Iberia were yet occupied by the
                  Moors, [mine]) these lines had become a part of the national folk and
                  literary tradition. Hence, the particular and very Christian point of
                  view, which comes across to us from the ballads about Rodereik, a
                  feeble monarch who had been turned into a national legend, indicates
                  to us how oral tradition faithfully caught and reflected the
                  polarization of Spanish resistance to Islam (sic), (Crow, 1985). Here
                  I make two points. 1). Even after the defeat at Guadalete, resistance
                  to the invaders was consistently demonstrated. 2). Despite the defeat
                  at Guadalete (which must NOT be seen as an end to Visigothic identity)
                  the exiled Visigoths in the mountains of Asturias (quite aware of
                  their duty to defend) remained steadfast in protecting their people
                  and homeland. In fact, only seven years after the Moorish invasion a
                  horde of nobles and warriors, the great majority being Visigoths from
                  the previous Toledan kingdom or their direct descendants (commanded
                  under Pelagius - grandson of Reccesvinth), successfully expelled
                  Munuza, the Moorish provincial governor from the footsteps of the
                  northern highlands. Thereafter, the defeat of Alkama at Covadonga
                  sealed the beginning of the 700-year long but eventually successful
                  struggle of the Reconquista. Thus, the origins of the Reconquista
                  itself can be attributed to Pelagius, Reccesvinth's grandson who by
                  example in leadership and political savvy was able to lead the remnant
                  Visigoths and amalgamate the forces of the Vascones and Celtic people
                  of Galicia and Asturias against the Moorish enemy. The latter was the
                  only way that massive enough forces could successfully be mustered
                  against the enemy. It is important to note that after Covadonga and
                  after all Moorish forces were expelled from northern Spain the council
                  of Albelda (822CE) records NOT CHURCH LEADERS or some other vicarious
                  entity but Alfons II (great-great-great-grandson of Visigothic King
                  Reccared instituting OMNEM GOTORUM ORDINEM SICUT TOLETO FUERAT - THE
                  WHOLE ORGANIZATION OF THE GOTHS JUST AS IT WAS AT TOLEDO. What needs
                  to be understood here is that the singular defeat at Guadalete
                  (especially under its particular circumstances) cannot define and
                  fault a lack of resolve on the part of the Visigoths to defend person
                  and homeland. Rather, it is evident in the above stated events that
                  there was a continuation and affirmation of Visigothic identity by the
                  descendents of Visigoths in the royal lineage, nobility and warrior
                  ranks while exiled in Asturias as well as a resolve to defend person
                  and homeland (especially against the Moorish invaders) for centuries
                  well after 711.

                  >This glorious, highly intelligent and also from a cultural/religious
                  >point of view, interesting people –cut-

                  F.E.J.D. writes:
                  Leonardo, I am convinced that all humans are relatively intelligent;
                  also, the word glorious is too subjective here and must be embraced as
                  a matter of opinion. Nonetheless the Visigoths must be commended for
                  learning to survive against great odds, their incredible journey
                  through almost an entire continent, their conquests; legal codes,
                  artistic and architectural endeavors which devised the forerunner to
                  Romanesque architecture and the flying buttress as well as their
                  relentless pursuit for liberty, their contribution to the preservation
                  of certain Germanic and Roman institutions through a thoughtful
                  synthesis of each other's ideas and most importantly, the mysterious
                  glue that held all of the latter and their people together through so
                  much hardship for so many years. --- Wow! No wonder we are still
                  asking questions about them…

                  >who in modern times have most often been blemished by far too many
                  >people(specially from the church...).

                  F.E.J.D. writes:
                  Leonardo, (Very Broadly) it seems (in Spain) there have been two
                  ideological camps as concerns the Visigoths. One camp sees them
                  generally as having made positive contributions; it weighs their pros
                  and cons in a relatively balanced way. The other - realizes their
                  contributions but in the end sees them as uncouth barbarian
                  interlopers that destroyed the primacy of Roman civilization. The
                  latter I attribute to certain historical biases found in the faculties
                  of certain universities. They tend to worship everything Roman and
                  chafe when dealing with Germanic contributions. They fail to see that
                  what the Visigoth's accomplished is part of their very loins.
                  Fortunately it is a minority view. Nonetheless, as has been already
                  stated the Germanic contribution be it genetic, artistic or
                  intellectual is inescapable.

                  >For me it seems extremely reasonable to do all this (except for the
                  >division of Spain) considering the following things:
                  >In Spain there's today a growing awareness of their celtic heritage,
                  >very much expressed in e.g newly founded cultural groups and feasts.
                  >Euskera needs no further introduction considering the great
                  >importance that it already enjoys in today's Northern Spain.
                  >Regarding Iberian, well.. very little is known still today about this
                  >ancient language and apparently those who understand it, even a
                  >little bit, are all scientists or amateur scientists. Arabic is
                  >taught in Spain at several Institutions and besides, today's spanish
                  >urban citizens have a close contact with them and their culture
                  >considering the vast amount of arabic inmigrants that live in Spain
                  >today.

                  >Latin and the cultures that it spawned has, is and will most
                  >definitely always be taught at schools, universities and other
                  >institutions throughout Spain.

                  >It therefore leaves us with the Gothic discourse. As people in Spain
                  >are taught in history about the Romans, La Reconquista and the
                  >Moors(+ the very, very little that is also taught about the Iberians,
                  >Basques, Greeks, Phoenicians, Celts/Celtiberians, Alans and the
                  >Germanic tribes).

                  F.E.J.D. writes:
                  Leonardo, the latter is part of the bias that I just explained.

                  >Spanish is being taught, as well as other languages which have
                  >nothing much to do with the Peninsula such as English or French. Why
                  >can't Gothic be taught then?


                  F.E.J.D. writes:
                  Interestingly, Leonardo, I know of someone who is in the process of
                  home schooling his children and he and his wife have been teaching
                  them Old English and Gothic. The children are incredibly bright and
                  have already mastered several known languages. In my own experience,
                  language is best learned at an early age, and as I found out while
                  taking the course anthropological linguistics during my baccalaureate,
                  it develops our "metalinguistic awareness", which further serves us in
                  attaining mastery over yet other languages. -- Nonetheless Leonardo,
                  language is only part of the whole; a comprehensive understanding of
                  the Goths and Visigoths as well as other relevant Germanic tribes must
                  encompass all aspects of those cultures. To that end I wonder if a
                  (less passive) forum should be created where members are more actively
                  led, engaged, and encouraged to publish and/or discuss good articles
                  and anecdotes on relevant Germanic and Gothic/Visigothic languages,
                  culture, history, anthropology and all other aspects of relevant
                  Germanic and Gothic/Visigothic scholarship. The group should also have
                  a web page and also accommodate people posting in other languages.
                  Perhaps I'll look into creating such a list myself. My only concern
                  would be not to negatively impact this lists member base. I do not
                  think it would. Also, my suggestion should not be construed as
                  negative criticism of the (Gothic-L). In fact, I corresponded with the
                  founders before they created it was the third person to join after the
                  owners. Thereafter, I announced this groups formation in "Oldnorsenet"
                  (an old defunct forum) and quite a few joined-up forming the group's
                  earliest member base. Rather, this list could remain just as it is,
                  especially with its strong expertise as concerns questions about the
                  Gothic language for which it is an excellent resource and with which
                  it is often preoccupied.

                  >Considering that they did establish themselves on the Peninsula, they
                  >ruled and influenced it forever by mixing themselves with the rest of
                  >the population.

                  F.E.J.D. writes:
                  Presently Leonardo, genetic haplotyping has minimized the inaccuracy
                  of population studies, which relied solely on historical data,
                  craniometry and typology and other circuitous and highly
                  interpretational methods. No longer do we have to accept unreliable
                  and/or sometimes "ulterior" subjective opinions on such things as the
                  genetic contribution of people groups such as Visigoths (the largest
                  of ALL Germanic tribes) to the Spanish population. Simply by
                  understanding, contrasting and comparing the relevant haplogroups and
                  haplotypes within a given population one is able to tell if there has
                  been any extraneous admixture. It is interesting however that before
                  there was haplotyping it had been thought (quite correctly) by many
                  scholars, (including Bury), that the Visigoths numbered approximately
                  300,000 in a peninsula of (at the time) [3,500,000 inhabitants
                  (Kenneth W. Harl, Tulane U. 1998)]. Likewise, (Stanley Payne, 1973)
                  concluded that the same number existed after the time of Alaric II
                  (484-507); a ratio of (11.66) to (1). The later ratio is in fact close
                  to the present ratio of African-Americans to European Americans in the
                  U.S, a sizable element in the overall population. Even so, it is
                  further thought that despite pressures from disease etc; the
                  Visigothic law of "thirds", (where 2/3 of each Hispano-Roman villa was
                  confiscated by Visigoths), would have given the Visigoths a greater
                  advantage in increasing their numbers, that, since the ability to
                  raise comestibles by having more land and better soils would have
                  favored Visigoth families over those who had poor soil and less land
                  and could not raise as much food. Furthermore, by projecting the
                  previous trend to 711CE (a period of some 200 years) it is quite
                  conceivable that the Visigoths could have narrowed the previously
                  stated ratio to as little as 10 to 1. You must also notice that I have
                  not factored-in other people Germanic people already in the peninsula,
                  they are simply not included as part of the Visigothic population,
                  namely the Suebi, which probably numbered around 80,000, and the
                  remnant Vandals that remained in Spain or returned to the Balearic
                  Islands and elsewhere after their ruinous mission to the south,
                  however these were probably few. – Nonetheless, underpinning the best
                  estimate of Visigoth admixture in Spain is the presence of suspect
                  genetic signatures in the Y-chromosome and/or mtDNA of extant
                  individuals where an inference may be made. The latter is in the
                  process of being collected from the extant populations of (Spain,
                  Pomerania, Gotland, and Southern Sweden as well as other suspected
                  homelands. It is also being collected from bone found in known
                  Gothic/Visigothic necropoli confirmed during archaeological excavation
                  through sartorial fashion, jewelry and other relevant artifacts.
                  Unfortunately, this study has been and will be underway for quite
                  sometime since it is quite comprehensive and the collection and
                  amplification of ancient materials is a slow process and/or has to be
                  done with great care and covers such an extensive geographical area.
                  Similar but smaller studies have been done by Dr. Brian Sykes to
                  estimate the Norse Viking admixture in Britain and Iceland. Dr. Sykes,
                  author of the "Seven Daughters of Eve" (a fantastic read that I highly
                  recommend).

                  [Explanation follows] (During the Last Glacial Maximum, about 18,000
                  years ago, the people bearing the R1b haplogroup over wintered in
                  Northern Spain (a refugium). After the glacial retreat about 12,000
                  years before present, R1b began a migration to the north in large
                  numbers and to the east in lesser numbers. "R1b probably arrived in
                  Spain from the east some 30,000 years ago among the Paleolithic or
                  "old stone age" peoples and is considered to be aboriginal to Europe.
                  They absorbed and/or replaced the handful of inhabitants living in
                  those areas. R1b is most concentrated in the population of the Basques
                  and nearby areas of Northern Spain as well as Wales and western
                  Ireland. It is at nearly 100% in those areas likely due to their
                  geographical isolation curtailing immigration. In other words, the
                  latter populations are among the most homogenous or (unmixed)
                  populations in Europe, almost exclusively comprised of the R1b
                  haplogroup and having almost no other haplogroup signatures in them.
                  Further east R1b attains a distribution of 70% in the Low-countries
                  and about 55% in places thought to be the contributing populations of
                  the Anglo-Saxon and Danish tribes and also thins-out in its
                  northernmost cline- Norway, where it is at 30%. The latter is current
                  standard knowledge in the DNA concordances of Europe and well
                  supported in a plethora of studies by numerous universities. "Everyone
                  who has the R1b is a descendant in the male line from an individual
                  known as "the patriarch" since his descendants account for over 40% of
                  all the chromosomes of Europe. This haplogroup is characteristic of
                  the Basques whose language is probably that of the first R1b, and who
                  are genetically the closest to the original R1b population (which
                  probably amounted to only a few thousand individuals)." (Source: Dr.
                  David Faux). Now Leonardo – In order to contrast the genetic
                  Contribution that may have come by way of other groups such as the
                  Visigoths against the Spanish population at large, it is important to
                  understand the aforementioned, as well as the signatures of nearby
                  populations. However, the genetic neighborhood around Spain is either
                  very similar (in the case of western France and the British Isles
                  declining to the north and east, or radically different such as in the
                  case of the populations of Northern Africa which originate from
                  distinctly different patrilineages. To that end I include the
                  following citations and several of my own findings: 1). "It is now
                  understood that the Strait of Gibraltar seems to have acted as a
                  strong (although not complete) barrier to gene flow…" (Bosch et al.,
                  Am J Hum Genet, 2001) . 2). "The majority of Iberian lineages resemble
                  those of central and northern Europe (Richards et al. 1996). 3). "It
                  seems therefore that the genetic contribution by the Moorish presence
                  in the peninsula, ((which had been considered by some as
                  substantial)), (Reyment, 1983)…((has left little trace in the modern
                  mtDNA gene pool))." (B. C. Sykes et al. 1996). 4). "The Islamic rule
                  of Spain, which began in A.D. 711 and lasted almost 8 centuries, left
                  only a minor contribution to the current Iberian Y-chromosome pool."
                  (Bertranpetit et al. 1995; Côrte-Real et al. 1996; Pinto et al. 1996;
                  Salas et al. 1998). In fact Leonardo, signatures from other
                  populations only appear as tiny fractions of the Spanish population.
                  For example, haplogroup U6 (A Berber signature) is only found at very
                  low frequencies: 5). …"it has been found in 3 of 196 Portuguese and 2
                  of 96 Galicians"… In view of the latter "MEAGER" contribution I am
                  always bewildered why certain individuals who's knowledge about Spain
                  or molecular anthropology is all but nil will go out of their way to
                  make it seem that Spain's genetic makeup is largely Moorish; that,
                  when the latter assertion (as has been shown) is scientifically
                  untenable. I can only think it is an ulterior motive. Rather, the
                  numbers of Berber lineages have several very good explanations. 1).
                  The presence of U6 is an extremely ancient contribution dating to
                  45,000YBP. This haplotype originated in western Asia and a handful of
                  these individuals migrated to an almost empty Iberia just before the
                  R1b haplogroup arrived there. Thus, many U6 signatures are echoes of
                  an ancient handful of individuals living in Iberia prior to the LGM
                  (last glacial maximum). 2). Depending on genetic distance it could
                  also be the signature left over from the previously stated "tribute of
                  Virgins" which took place in the areas where the U6 haplogroup is
                  found). [Explanation]: It is well known that some of the women taken
                  were returned to their families, either by the payment of ransom or
                  during the rebellion of the local Christians (who found the practice
                  intolerable). Some of the women had already been raped. Thus, it is
                  very plausible since the "U6 signature is completely absent from all
                  Andalusians tested and again absent in 162 other Iberians comprising
                  the statistical population (5). (Bertranpetit et al. 1995; Côrte-Real
                  et al. 1996; Pinto et al. 1996; Salas et al. 1998), and yet present in
                  areas where the tribute took place that it is related to a genetic
                  contribution through the raped victims. There is yet a further
                  explanation. There is curious anecdotal and historical evidence as
                  concerns the populace in the stated area, which does not come as a
                  surprise to those of us that have invested considerable time studying
                  the Spanish populace. Here I mean the "Maragatos", or Moorish-Goths.
                  The latter are well attested in an old article by George Borrow
                  (1803-1881) a British evangelist and travel writer of that time.
                  (Please see the University of Adelaide Library Electronic Texts
                  Collection.) Borrow states, "The Maragatos are perhaps the most
                  singular caste to be found amongst the checquered population of Spain.
                  They have their own peculiar customs and dress, and never intermarry
                  with the Spaniards…There can be little doubt that they are a remnant
                  of those Goths who sided with the Moors on their invasion of Spain,
                  and who adopted their customs, and manner of dress, which, with the
                  exception of the first, are still to a considerable degree retained by
                  them. It is, however, evident that their blood has at no time mingled
                  with that of the wild children of the desert, for scarcely amongst the
                  hills of Norway would you find figures and faces more essentially
                  Gothic than those of the Maragatos. They are strong athletic men, but
                  loutish and heavy, and their features, though for the most part well
                  formed, are vacant and devoid of expression. They are slow and plain
                  of speech, and those eloquent and imaginative sallies so common in the
                  conversation of other Spaniards, seldom or never escape them; they
                  have, moreover, a coarse thick pronunciation, and when you hear them
                  speak, you almost imagine that it is some German or English peasant
                  attempting to express himself in the language of the Peninsula
                  (Borrow, 1840)" The latter is obviously only anecdotal, however,
                  recent findings have shed great scientific light on the Maragatos. In
                  the new study; Mitochondrial DNA characterization of European
                  isolates: the Maragatos from Spain, (Larruga JM, Diez F, Pinto et al.)
                  their uniqueness becomes clear. The study states; Mitochondrial DNA
                  analysis confirms that Maragatos from Spain are a genetically isolated
                  human group. Genetic distances between Maragatos and the comparison
                  samples are significantly different even with the Leon sample
                  (P<0.001), which shares the same geographic area as the Maragatos.
                  Although the north-African haplogroup U6 is present in them, their
                  attributed Berber origin is weakened, as this haplogroup is also
                  detected in surrounding populations with which, in addition, Maragatos
                  have the smaller genetic distances." The later only a vestige echo
                  from 45,000 years BP of the meager presence of U6 in the population
                  before the R1b became ubiquitous and homogenous in the peninsula. The
                  presence of Neolithic haplogroups (meaning haplogroups extraneous to
                  Iberia and ubiquitous in such places as the purported homeland of the
                  Goths where the R1a and I haplogroups and its haplotypes enjoy wide
                  distribution) in this sample suggests that their isolation culture was
                  not absolute until recent times." Thus the Maragatos may be an
                  isolated extant population perhaps the direct descendants of a faction
                  of Visigoths that for certain reasons remained separate from the
                  surrounding populace. At the moment however, it is too soon to
                  disclose much more or arrive at any conclusions as pertains conclusive
                  estimates of Visigoth genetic contribution in Iberia. The sampling
                  must be completed and all the markers contrasted before conclusions
                  are finalized.

                  >They also provided to the heritage by leaving customs, sayings, words
                  >and other cultural traits. As mentioned, they ruled it and left
                  >behind them significant edifications such as churches, monuments
                  >etc... and even at least one town(!) such as Reccopolis.

                  F.E.J.D. writes:
                  Concerning the Goths, Lucien Musset wrote, "…their ensuing prestige
                  among other Germans was expressed in the epic tradition for over a
                  thousand years". Undoubtedly, the Goths have been an ever-present
                  preoccupation in the minds of some Europeans since the beginning of
                  modern Europe.

                  Lastly Leonardo, Do not let others dissuade you from learning about
                  your Gothic heritage. The truth is that the Visigoths are simply and
                  undeniably an important part of Spanish history and part of the
                  Spanish populace. Those that would have you think otherwise by mere
                  opinion are sure to be uninformed or simply ignorant of history or
                  have sinister ulterior motives for doing so.

                  Cheers,
                  Frithunanths.
                  (Fernando Elatheus Jiménez-Díaz)




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                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • cheyenne nicole
                  faltin2001 wrote: hey everyone....I won t be on the computer for a while. so if i don t respond to anything you guys send me its not
                  Message 8 of 28 , May 28, 2004
                  • 0 Attachment
                    faltin2001 <dirk@...> wrote:> hey everyone....I won't be on the computer for a while. so if i don't respond to anything you guys send me its not because i'm rude. Bye Have fun!
                    > F.E.J.D. writes:
                    > Presently Leonardo, genetic haplotyping has minimized the inaccuracy
                    > of population studies, which relied solely on historical data,
                    > craniometry and typology and other circuitous and highly
                    > interpretational methods. No longer do we have to accept unreliable
                    > and/or sometimes "ulterior" subjective opinions on such things as
                    the
                    > genetic contribution of people groups such as Visigoths (the largest
                    > of ALL Germanic tribes)




                    There is so much wrong with this text that I point out only a few
                    things. The Visigoths were certainly not the largest of all Germanic
                    tribes. Franks, Saxons, Alamannians, Anglo-Saxons, Bavarians and the
                    North Germanic peoples were all much larger than the Visigoths.












                    to the Spanish population. Simply by
                    > understanding, contrasting and comparing the relevant haplogroups
                    and
                    > haplotypes within a given population one is able to tell if there
                    has
                    > been any extraneous admixture. It is interesting however that before
                    > there was haplotyping it had been thought (quite correctly) by many
                    > scholars, (including Bury), that the Visigoths numbered
                    approximately
                    > 300,000 in a peninsula of (at the time)






                    This is likely far to high a number. More like 100,000 perhaps more
                    and many of them were, according to the historical sources, hangers
                    on. Runaway Roman peasants, slaves, Roman mine workers and so on, who
                    joined the Visigoths on their way to Spain.







                    [3,500,000 inhabitants
                    > (Kenneth W. Harl, Tulane U. 1998)]. Likewise, (Stanley Payne, 1973)
                    > concluded that the same number existed after the time of Alaric II
                    > (484-507); a ratio of (11.66) to (1). The later ratio is in fact
                    close
                    > to the present ratio of African-Americans to European Americans in
                    the
                    > U.S, a sizable element in the overall population. Even so, it is
                    > further thought that despite pressures from disease etc; the
                    > Visigothic law of "thirds", (where 2/3 of each Hispano-Roman villa
                    was
                    > confiscated by Visigoths), would have given the Visigoths a greater
                    > advantage in increasing their numbers, that, since the ability to
                    > raise comestibles by having more land and better soils would have
                    > favored Visigoth families over those who had poor soil and less land
                    > and could not raise as much food. Furthermore, by projecting the
                    > previous trend to 711CE (a period of some 200 years) it is quite
                    > conceivable that the Visigoths could have narrowed the previously
                    > stated ratio to as little as 10 to 1. You must also notice that I
                    have
                    > not factored-in other people Germanic people already in the
                    peninsula,
                    > they are simply not included as part of the Visigothic population,
                    > namely the Suebi, which probably numbered around 80,000, and the
                    > remnant Vandals that remained in Spain or returned to the Balearic
                    > Islands and elsewhere after their ruinous mission to the south,
                    > however these were probably few. � Nonetheless, underpinning the
                    best
                    > estimate of Visigoth admixture in Spain is the presence of suspect
                    > genetic signatures in the Y-chromosome and/or mtDNA of extant
                    > individuals where an inference may be made. The latter is in the
                    > process of being collected from the extant populations of (Spain,
                    > Pomerania, Gotland, and Southern Sweden as well as other suspected
                    > homelands.






                    One cannot, but smile and shake ones head at such nonsense.
                    I am sure you will succeed in calculating the Spanish into a Germanic
                    people, strange only that most of them just don't look the part;-)

                    Dirk





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                    Cheyenne

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                  • F. E. Jiménez Díaz
                    My goodness Herr Faltin, My post seems to have made you become unhinged. Please be assured that my intention was not to make you uncomfortable or have you take
                    Message 9 of 28 , May 28, 2004
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                      My goodness Herr Faltin,
                      My post seems to have made you become unhinged. Please be assured that
                      my intention was not to make you uncomfortable or have you take a
                      flight of fancy as you have done trying to deconstruct what I have
                      written.
                      Indeed I do hope that we are able to correct one another's mistakes
                      when mistakes are made but we should do so politely and cogently. I do
                      admit that in haste I substituted Varus for Valens but that is all,
                      (very similar names you know) about which you made some hay. Most
                      decent people would have rather politely pointed to the oversight.
                      Even so, though not a historically accepted appellation I will choose
                      to call Alaric's Gothic Victory over Valens, the "Clades Valensiana"
                      (sic).
                      Furthermore, my observation of your comportment stands. - I carefully
                      read through your posts #7601 and 7602. Your efforts were not
                      rebuttals but reactions, so strident, so uninformed and so
                      misrepresentative of ideas that I would not have answered them had I
                      not read to the very end where you make a deliberate ad hominem
                      attack, and even worse, a slur I shall not dignify. You sir, have done
                      great harm to whatever credibility you might have had in these groups.
                      It is also a disservice to the members of this list to demonstrate
                      such unprofessional behavior.

                      I hope everyone will read this and my next post in its entirety and
                      let things stand on their merit. Even so, I am still willing to
                      apologize if my original post made you uncomfortable in any way.

                      And by the way, Also, I am quite aware of your diversionary tactics
                      when challenging someone's ideas. First you immediately discredit
                      their ideas with a cautionary preamble making it seem as though your
                      intellect has detected some heresy and putting them on the defensive.
                      Then you will selectively parse sentences to make things seem what
                      they are not. Then you will insert your opinion where it suits
                      (without giving content or sources) while on the other hand demanding
                      them of everyone else. Lastly you close with dismissive comments that
                      make it appear you are right when in fact many times you have only
                      inserted mere OPINION. ---------- Too bad for you though, the latter
                      seems to work only with people who are not sufficiently aware of
                      history, uncritical of ideas or are in awe of your opinion.

                      I came to this group from ONN "Oldnorsenet" then with my screen name
                      of Frodenand and have been here since the under different screen names
                      as I have changed computers and locations. Interestingly, through that
                      time I have never had to defend myself in this way. I beg the lists
                      apology for having to do it, but I cannot let such insults and
                      baseless assertions stand. I promise that I will not return comments
                      nor mention these matters again after I post my two responses.

                      > > F.E.J.D. writes:
                      > > Presently Leonardo, genetic haplotyping has minimized the inaccuracy
                      > > of population studies, which relied solely on historical data,
                      > > craniometry and typology and other circuitous and highly
                      > > interpretational methods. No longer do we have to accept > >
                      unreliable
                      > > and/or sometimes "ulterior" subjective opinions on such things as
                      > the
                      > > genetic contribution of people groups such as Visigoths (the largest
                      > > of ALL Germanic tribes)
                      >
                      >
                      Faltin writes:
                      >
                      > There is so much wrong with this text that I point out only a few
                      > things. The Visigoths were certainly not the largest of all Germanic
                      > tribes. Franks, Saxons, Alamannians, Anglo-Saxons, Bavarians and the
                      >North Germanic peoples were all much larger than the >Visigoths.

                      F.E.J.D. writes:
                      First of all, please provide sources and content and stop hiding
                      behind your opinion.
                      Give us population numbers and approximate dates with citations for
                      all of the people groups you state.

                      Secondly, it is a matter of historic fact that there were only three
                      sizable Germanic tribes in Iberia (the Visigoths, Vandals and Suebi)
                      and the Visigoths were by far the largest.
                      Actually, people would have read my thought in its correct context had
                      you not snipped the text at the point which you inserted your
                      comments. The way it is snipped and separated by your comments (at mid
                      sentence) is rather convenient though. Is it not?
                      Now that you brought up the "Franks, Saxons, Alamannians,
                      Anglo-Saxons, Bavarians and the North Germanic peoples" as being
                      larger, you must prove the point.
                      Again - give us population numbers and approximate dates with
                      citations for all of the people groups you state. ---- However, you
                      will surely encounter that tribal groups in Europe at the time I cite
                      population numbers for the Visigoths (who's estimated population has
                      some verifiability) are extremely difficult to attain since these
                      purported tribes were extremely amorphous entities having few
                      verifiable geographic delineations, and in an almost constant process
                      of blending in and out of disparate groups. Therefore arriving at
                      meaningful population numbers is extremely difficult. The latter is
                      certainly so for the West Germans, (who were mainly farmers), since
                      certain of the West German tribes we have come to know; the Franks and
                      Saxons, were amalgamations of many smaller people groups having loose
                      ties. The latter is especially true of the Alemanni, the tribal group
                      from which some European states derive their name for the modern state
                      of Germany. The name Aleman simply means "all men" denoting a melting
                      pot of the checkerboard of people sharing similar culture that came to
                      be known as Germany.
                      . The Alemanni were in fact a composite nation formed from the Suevian
                      and other tribes, on the upper Rhine; same goes for the Franks. People
                      on the lower Rhine formed a "loose" conglomerate under that name. In
                      fact, most of the tribes in Central Europe remained largely amorphous
                      and unfocused until quite late, as is the case of the Franks who
                      largely remain that way until just before the time they are reported
                      as harassing the Visigoths.
                      Interestingly, quite often scholars have questioned the extent to
                      which these small tribes were committed to one another or to a larger
                      parent tribe. The only evidence of such is a text of Ammianus
                      Marcellinus that refers to the pactum vicissitudinis redendae, a pact
                      just promising mutual aid; ------- so much, for the cohesiveness of
                      these (great tribes?). It is just mere common sense that tribes could
                      not have had much association with one another or that many large
                      tribes could have existed in the type of dense forests typical in
                      Central Europe at the time and well into the early medieval period.
                      "Bury states that we must picture Germany as consisting of small
                      territories each of which was surrounded by a dense impenetrable ring
                      of primeval forest". That ring of woodland impeded attack from other
                      tribes around them. It is known through archaeological evidence that
                      "tribal groups" existed in small territories that were claimed from
                      these dense woodlands. Small tribes grew into large ones and much,
                      much later into Nation states when these small tribes grew and had to
                      chop down more of the forest for their expansion. The latter allowed
                      small tribes to come into contact with other tribes and to establish
                      some sort of (treaty or understanding) between one another in order to
                      keep war at bay etc. The reason that East German tribes were large is
                      because the geographic and environmental area in which they lived was
                      not densely wooded but rather open and prairie-like and for the most
                      part were not sedentary farmers.
                      (Please see The Invasion of Europe by the Barbarians. Especially pp10.)


                      >
                      >
                      > to the Spanish population. Simply by
                      > > understanding, contrasting and comparing the relevant haplogroups
                      >>and.

                      > > haplotypes within a given population one is able to tell if there
                      > has
                      > > been any extraneous admixture. It is interesting however that before
                      > > there was haplotyping it had been thought (quite correctly) by many
                      > > scholars, that the Visigoths numbered
                      > approximately
                      > > 300,000 in a peninsula of (at the time)
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      Faltin writes:
                      > This is likely far to high a number. More like 100,000 perhaps more
                      > and many of them were, according to the historical sources, hangers
                      > on. Runaway Roman peasants, slaves, Roman mine workers and so on, >
                      > who joined the Visigoths on their way to Spain.
                      >

                      F.E.J.D. writes:
                      There is wide debate in this actual number. I've seen as much as
                      500,000 and as little as 100,000, nonetheless...You AGAIN fail to
                      provide sources and content; this time, in order to substantiate your
                      estimate and the idea that many Visigoths were in fact not from
                      Germanic people groups but rather "hangers on" et al.

                      Here, you are making a point of quantifying (AND QUALIFYING), when it
                      was only necessary to quantify the number of Visigoths. You qualify
                      the types of individuals who joined the Visigoths by emphasizing that
                      "many" of those that joined were Roman and on (what has historically
                      been termed) the margins of society. You do so by using such words as
                      "hangers on" "Slaves", "peasants", "mine workers", etc. On the other
                      hand you avoid using individuals having other estates and occupations,
                      which may have also joined Visigothic ranks. Though it is true that
                      the lower classes openly welcomed the Visigoths. It is also true that
                      you deliberately inserted QUALIFYING criteria when qualifying criteria
                      was not needed. Your insertion of just certain types of estates and
                      occupations is also rather curious since it is extraneous to the
                      question of (how many individuals comprised the Visigoths and then
                      other tribes). The latter makes it appear that you inserted the latter
                      purposely. Furthermore, I can think of no other reason for doing so
                      other that to qualify the types of people that entered Spain.
                      Therefore you selectively make it seem that "many" Visigoths that
                      entered Spain were in fact not the descendants of ethnic Visigoths but
                      rather Romans and slaves, what has historically been considered as the
                      offal of society. Could it be that you would want readers to come away
                      with the idea that the Visigoths that entered Spain were less
                      desirable or somehow tainted by such individuals among their ranks?
                      Could it also be that you would like others to think that the Spanish
                      populace are in part descended from (as you say) "slaves, peasants
                      etc..." If so, let it be. However, your point is absurd, one cannot
                      delineate the Visigoths in such away. Though it is now obvious that
                      they were not all direct descendants of the original people groups
                      that we have come to know as Goths. They were more importantly the
                      originators and representatives of certain ideas that greatly impacted
                      the European world, which is why they are interesting and worthy of
                      study. As such, whatever type of individual joined their ranks matters
                      little. They certainly held together well by culture and language but
                      certainly also by certain ideas that transcended territorial origin,
                      occupation and estate. A good lesson for all of us in this day and age.

                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > [3,500,000 inhabitants
                      > > (Kenneth W. Harl, Tulane U. 1998)]. Likewise, (Stanley Payne, 1973)
                      > > concluded that the same number existed after the time of Alaric II
                      > > (484-507); a ratio of (11.66) to (1). The later ratio is in fact
                      > close
                      > > to the present ratio of African-Americans to European Americans in
                      > the
                      > > U.S, a sizable element in the overall population. Even so, it is
                      > > further thought that despite pressures from disease etc; the
                      > > Visigothic law of "thirds", (where 2/3 of each Hispano-Roman villa
                      > was
                      > > confiscated by Visigoths), would have given the Visigoths a greater
                      > > advantage in increasing their numbers, that, since the ability to
                      > > raise comestibles by having more land and better soils would have
                      > > favored Visigoth families over those who had poor soil and less land
                      > > and could not raise as much food. Furthermore, by projecting the
                      > > previous trend to 711CE (a period of some 200 years) it is quite
                      > > conceivable that the Visigoths could have narrowed the previously
                      > > stated ratio to as little as 10 to 1. You must also notice that I
                      > have
                      > > not factored-in other people Germanic people already in the
                      > peninsula,
                      > > they are simply not included as part of the Visigothic population,
                      > > namely the Suebi, which probably numbered around 80,000, and the
                      > > remnant Vandals that remained in Spain or returned to the Balearic
                      > > Islands and elsewhere after their ruinous mission to the south,
                      > > however these were probably few. – Nonetheless, underpinning the
                      > best
                      > > estimate of Visigoth admixture in Spain is the presence of suspect
                      > > genetic signatures in the Y-chromosome and/or mtDNA of extant
                      > > individuals where an inference may be made. The latter is in the
                      > > process of being collected from the extant populations of (Spain,
                      > > Pomerania, Gotland, and Southern Sweden as well as other suspected
                      > > homelands.
                      >
                      > Faltin writes:
                      >
                      > One cannot, but smile and shake ones head at such nonsense.
                      > I am sure you will succeed in calculating the Spanish into a Germanic
                      > people, strange only that most of them just don't look the part;-)
                      > Dirk

                      F.E.J.D. writes:
                      The last part of my post seems to have made you writhe uncomfortably.
                      I can actually picture you "shaking your head" in disgust.
                      However, I ask myself however, why would you say such things? It is
                      terribly discourteous and unprofessional to behave in such a way
                      towards anyone. If you have disagreements, I suggest you substantiate
                      them (as I have) in an intellectual cogent manner. Instead, you attack
                      me in an ad hominem manner. Such tactics are a sign that you can no
                      longer defend your points through reason.
                      FURTHERMORE:
                      WHAT YOU STATE, (THAT IS), THAT I WILL "SUCCEED IN CALCULATING THE
                      SPANISH INTO A GERMANIC PEOPLE" IS PATENTLY SLANDEROUS TOWARDS ME, MY
                      RESEARCH FELLOWS AND OUR PROFESSIONAL ETHICS. I WOULD ((( NEVER )))
                      WILLINGLY CAUSE AN EXPERIMENT OR STUDY TO SKEW IN ANY DIRECTION. to be
                      ACCUSED OF THAT BY ANYONE IS BEYOND THE PALE.
                      BE ADVICED THAT IF YOU WERE PRESENTLY IN THIS COUNTRY, I WOULD BRING A
                      LAW SUIT AGAINST YOU IMMEDIATELY. OUR CONSTITUTION DOES –NOT- PROTECT
                      SLANDEROUS SPEECH. THUS, BE ADVICED ---- YOUR COMMENTS WERE PATENTLY
                      SLANDEROUS.
                      I ALSO ASK THE MODERATOR TO TAKE NOTICE (SINCE THIS LIST IS IN THE
                      UNITED STATS), I HOPE THAT PROPER ACTION BE BROUGHT AGAINST YOU; NOT
                      ONLY FOR YOUR SLANDEROUS STATEMENTS BUT ALSO FOR YOUR RACIST COMMENTS
                      WHICH HEREAFTER I SHALL MAKE KNOWN. THEY ARE FOUND AT THE END OF YOUR
                      CLOSING.
                      ((( I HOPE EVERYONE HAS PICKED-UP ON THEM)) AND I HOPE THEY ARE ALSO
                      PASSED ON TO THE GERMANIC LIST IN WHICH YOU ARE ALSO A MEMBER.

                      YOUR COMMENTS STATE:
                      >"I am sure you will succeed in calculating the Spanish into a Germanic
                      > people, strange only that most of them just don't look the part;-)
                      > Dirk

                      You end your statement with an emoticon (how mature). Obviously the
                      winking emoticon is meant to be condescending and dismissive of the
                      idea that Spaniards could ever be partly descended from Visigoths. It
                      is purposely meant to be a disparaging remark to all Spaniards and me.
                      Had you stated the same phrase in a scholarly manner it would have
                      been taken as a bonafide question, however, your choice of words
                      followed by the emoticon clearly betray your intentions, it in fact
                      was meant to be clearly derogatory and offensive. EVERYONE - PLEASE
                      TAKE NOTICE!

                      Here, it is plainly evident you think people have to look a certain
                      way in order to be of Germanic ancestry (but how about those
                      individuals of full "Germanic ancestry" that are not the
                      "stereotypical idea" of Germanic, that is blond and blue-eyed)? Take
                      for example Franz Josef Wenzel, the prince of Liechtenstein and so
                      many others. And by the way, just what, in your opinion, do Germanic
                      people have to look like Herr Faltin?
                      ? Please substantiate your opinion ----- However, I suspect that you
                      won't since citing racist or anthropologically discredited literature
                      would immediately give you away and disclose exactly what you are and
                      feel. It is quite clear that you think most Spaniards do not meet your
                      criteria. That is why you constantly chafe every time someone brings
                      up the question of Visigothic descent in the Spanish populace. I say,
                      if one is partly descended from a certain people group then let the
                      genes speak for themselves, but I wonder if "you" would submit to
                      being genotyped? --- I wonder if you would be surprised?
                      You nonetheless, seem to chafe at the very idea that Spaniards are
                      partly descended from Visigoths who inhabited a common homeland. In
                      turn you ascribe to us decent from certain people groups at rates that
                      are not scientifically tenable and that (without sources and content).
                      The proof that you have done so is all over this list's archives. In
                      months past, your answers to me and to other individuals citing
                      anything to do with Visigothic heritage have been consistently
                      UNSUBSTANTIATED and full of negative opinion and dismissive comments.
                      I wonder---- what could be your reasons for doing so?
                      Anthropologically, both of your assertions are patently incorrect and
                      laughable. I will not dignify them with further answers.

                      Quite evidently you have shown your true colors, (pun intended).

                      Lastly, I am only a molecular anthropologist whose only desire is to
                      know how we got here, our descent. That sir is what drives me. The
                      Spanish people are what they are. I have no subjective desire to be or
                      to make others seem what we are not, whether "Germanic" or part of any
                      other people group. The very idea of desiring to be what we are not is
                      quite absurd anyway don't you think? Rather, we search such
                      connections in our genome because humans are curious about the world,
                      because we want to connect to our other fellow humans in profound and
                      intimate ways and because it is potentially expedient from a medical
                      point of view. It is also wonderful that we have such a tool in
                      genetics to let us search our connections and dispel the racist
                      theories and quackery so rampant today. All of us are actually related
                      anyway.

                      Actually I was going to answer Faltin's other post but I will not
                      dignify its contents nor take up this list' s time and bandwidth
                      unless the moderator and a majority feel that I ought to do so.

                      I send this in haste, please pardon grammatical errors and
                      LASTLY; beg the lists pardon for having to write this.

                      Thank you all,
                      F.E.J.D.
                    • F. E. Jiménez Díaz
                      BTW Upon re reading my previous entry I would like to clarify that it was Fritigern at Hadrianople (over Valens), however, somehow I recall that Alaric might
                      Message 10 of 28 , May 28, 2004
                      • 0 Attachment
                        BTW Upon re reading my previous entry I would like to clarify that it
                        was Fritigern at Hadrianople (over Valens), however, somehow I recall
                        that Alaric might have been one of the Generals. Can someone clarify this?
                        Thanks,
                        F.E.J.D.
                      • OSCAR HERRERA
                        i have family in spain and visit there alot.all i see ia alot of white and german looking people in madrid and other areas as well. there are alot of
                        Message 11 of 28 , May 28, 2004
                        • 0 Attachment
                          i have family in spain and visit there alot.all i see ia alot of white and german looking people in madrid and other areas as well. there are alot of respectedly alot of meditarranean looking people as well. many western countries have so called different peoples working and living together. we should restrain when it comes to racial differences ,but solving problems that what is right should be everyones goal/

                          F. E. Jim�nez D�az <visigoth@...> wrote:My goodness Herr Faltin,
                          My post seems to have made you become unhinged. Please be assured that
                          my intention was not to make you uncomfortable or have you take a
                          flight of fancy as you have done trying to deconstruct what I have
                          written.
                          Indeed I do hope that we are able to correct one another's mistakes
                          when mistakes are made but we should do so politely and cogently. I do
                          admit that in haste I substituted Varus for Valens but that is all,
                          (very similar names you know) about which you made some hay. Most
                          decent people would have rather politely pointed to the oversight.
                          Even so, though not a historically accepted appellation I will choose
                          to call Alaric's Gothic Victory over Valens, the "Clades Valensiana"
                          (sic).
                          Furthermore, my observation of your comportment stands. - I carefully
                          read through your posts #7601 and 7602. Your efforts were not
                          rebuttals but reactions, so strident, so uninformed and so
                          misrepresentative of ideas that I would not have answered them had I
                          not read to the very end where you make a deliberate ad hominem
                          attack, and even worse, a slur I shall not dignify. You sir, have done
                          great harm to whatever credibility you might have had in these groups.
                          It is also a disservice to the members of this list to demonstrate
                          such unprofessional behavior.

                          I hope everyone will read this and my next post in its entirety and
                          let things stand on their merit. Even so, I am still willing to
                          apologize if my original post made you uncomfortable in any way.

                          And by the way, Also, I am quite aware of your diversionary tactics
                          when challenging someone's ideas. First you immediately discredit
                          their ideas with a cautionary preamble making it seem as though your
                          intellect has detected some heresy and putting them on the defensive.
                          Then you will selectively parse sentences to make things seem what
                          they are not. Then you will insert your opinion where it suits
                          (without giving content or sources) while on the other hand demanding
                          them of everyone else. Lastly you close with dismissive comments that
                          make it appear you are right when in fact many times you have only
                          inserted mere OPINION. ---------- Too bad for you though, the latter
                          seems to work only with people who are not sufficiently aware of
                          history, uncritical of ideas or are in awe of your opinion.

                          I came to this group from ONN "Oldnorsenet" then with my screen name
                          of Frodenand and have been here since the under different screen names
                          as I have changed computers and locations. Interestingly, through that
                          time I have never had to defend myself in this way. I beg the lists
                          apology for having to do it, but I cannot let such insults and
                          baseless assertions stand. I promise that I will not return comments
                          nor mention these matters again after I post my two responses.

                          > > F.E.J.D. writes:
                          > > Presently Leonardo, genetic haplotyping has minimized the inaccuracy
                          > > of population studies, which relied solely on historical data,
                          > > craniometry and typology and other circuitous and highly
                          > > interpretational methods. No longer do we have to accept > >
                          unreliable
                          > > and/or sometimes "ulterior" subjective opinions on such things as
                          > the
                          > > genetic contribution of people groups such as Visigoths (the largest
                          > > of ALL Germanic tribes)
                          >
                          >
                          Faltin writes:
                          >
                          > There is so much wrong with this text that I point out only a few
                          > things. The Visigoths were certainly not the largest of all Germanic
                          > tribes. Franks, Saxons, Alamannians, Anglo-Saxons, Bavarians and the
                          >North Germanic peoples were all much larger than the >Visigoths.

                          F.E.J.D. writes:
                          First of all, please provide sources and content and stop hiding
                          behind your opinion.
                          Give us population numbers and approximate dates with citations for
                          all of the people groups you state.

                          Secondly, it is a matter of historic fact that there were only three
                          sizable Germanic tribes in Iberia (the Visigoths, Vandals and Suebi)
                          and the Visigoths were by far the largest.
                          Actually, people would have read my thought in its correct context had
                          you not snipped the text at the point which you inserted your
                          comments. The way it is snipped and separated by your comments (at mid
                          sentence) is rather convenient though. Is it not?
                          Now that you brought up the "Franks, Saxons, Alamannians,
                          Anglo-Saxons, Bavarians and the North Germanic peoples" as being
                          larger, you must prove the point.
                          Again - give us population numbers and approximate dates with
                          citations for all of the people groups you state. ---- However, you
                          will surely encounter that tribal groups in Europe at the time I cite
                          population numbers for the Visigoths (who's estimated population has
                          some verifiability) are extremely difficult to attain since these
                          purported tribes were extremely amorphous entities having few
                          verifiable geographic delineations, and in an almost constant process
                          of blending in and out of disparate groups. Therefore arriving at
                          meaningful population numbers is extremely difficult. The latter is
                          certainly so for the West Germans, (who were mainly farmers), since
                          certain of the West German tribes we have come to know; the Franks and
                          Saxons, were amalgamations of many smaller people groups having loose
                          ties. The latter is especially true of the Alemanni, the tribal group
                          from which some European states derive their name for the modern state
                          of Germany. The name Aleman simply means "all men" denoting a melting
                          pot of the checkerboard of people sharing similar culture that came to
                          be known as Germany.
                          . The Alemanni were in fact a composite nation formed from the Suevian
                          and other tribes, on the upper Rhine; same goes for the Franks. People
                          on the lower Rhine formed a "loose" conglomerate under that name. In
                          fact, most of the tribes in Central Europe remained largely amorphous
                          and unfocused until quite late, as is the case of the Franks who
                          largely remain that way until just before the time they are reported
                          as harassing the Visigoths.
                          Interestingly, quite often scholars have questioned the extent to
                          which these small tribes were committed to one another or to a larger
                          parent tribe. The only evidence of such is a text of Ammianus
                          Marcellinus that refers to the pactum vicissitudinis redendae, a pact
                          just promising mutual aid; ------- so much, for the cohesiveness of
                          these (great tribes?). It is just mere common sense that tribes could
                          not have had much association with one another or that many large
                          tribes could have existed in the type of dense forests typical in
                          Central Europe at the time and well into the early medieval period.
                          "Bury states that we must picture Germany as consisting of small
                          territories each of which was surrounded by a dense impenetrable ring
                          of primeval forest". That ring of woodland impeded attack from other
                          tribes around them. It is known through archaeological evidence that
                          "tribal groups" existed in small territories that were claimed from
                          these dense woodlands. Small tribes grew into large ones and much,
                          much later into Nation states when these small tribes grew and had to
                          chop down more of the forest for their expansion. The latter allowed
                          small tribes to come into contact with other tribes and to establish
                          some sort of (treaty or understanding) between one another in order to
                          keep war at bay etc. The reason that East German tribes were large is
                          because the geographic and environmental area in which they lived was
                          not densely wooded but rather open and prairie-like and for the most
                          part were not sedentary farmers.
                          (Please see The Invasion of Europe by the Barbarians. Especially pp10.)


                          >
                          >
                          > to the Spanish population. Simply by
                          > > understanding, contrasting and comparing the relevant haplogroups
                          >>and.

                          > > haplotypes within a given population one is able to tell if there
                          > has
                          > > been any extraneous admixture. It is interesting however that before
                          > > there was haplotyping it had been thought (quite correctly) by many
                          > > scholars, that the Visigoths numbered
                          > approximately
                          > > 300,000 in a peninsula of (at the time)
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          Faltin writes:
                          > This is likely far to high a number. More like 100,000 perhaps more
                          > and many of them were, according to the historical sources, hangers
                          > on. Runaway Roman peasants, slaves, Roman mine workers and so on, >
                          > who joined the Visigoths on their way to Spain.
                          >

                          F.E.J.D. writes:
                          There is wide debate in this actual number. I've seen as much as
                          500,000 and as little as 100,000, nonetheless...You AGAIN fail to
                          provide sources and content; this time, in order to substantiate your
                          estimate and the idea that many Visigoths were in fact not from
                          Germanic people groups but rather "hangers on" et al.

                          Here, you are making a point of quantifying (AND QUALIFYING), when it
                          was only necessary to quantify the number of Visigoths. You qualify
                          the types of individuals who joined the Visigoths by emphasizing that
                          "many" of those that joined were Roman and on (what has historically
                          been termed) the margins of society. You do so by using such words as
                          "hangers on" "Slaves", "peasants", "mine workers", etc. On the other
                          hand you avoid using individuals having other estates and occupations,
                          which may have also joined Visigothic ranks. Though it is true that
                          the lower classes openly welcomed the Visigoths. It is also true that
                          you deliberately inserted QUALIFYING criteria when qualifying criteria
                          was not needed. Your insertion of just certain types of estates and
                          occupations is also rather curious since it is extraneous to the
                          question of (how many individuals comprised the Visigoths and then
                          other tribes). The latter makes it appear that you inserted the latter
                          purposely. Furthermore, I can think of no other reason for doing so
                          other that to qualify the types of people that entered Spain.
                          Therefore you selectively make it seem that "many" Visigoths that
                          entered Spain were in fact not the descendants of ethnic Visigoths but
                          rather Romans and slaves, what has historically been considered as the
                          offal of society. Could it be that you would want readers to come away
                          with the idea that the Visigoths that entered Spain were less
                          desirable or somehow tainted by such individuals among their ranks?
                          Could it also be that you would like others to think that the Spanish
                          populace are in part descended from (as you say) "slaves, peasants
                          etc..." If so, let it be. However, your point is absurd, one cannot
                          delineate the Visigoths in such away. Though it is now obvious that
                          they were not all direct descendants of the original people groups
                          that we have come to know as Goths. They were more importantly the
                          originators and representatives of certain ideas that greatly impacted
                          the European world, which is why they are interesting and worthy of
                          study. As such, whatever type of individual joined their ranks matters
                          little. They certainly held together well by culture and language but
                          certainly also by certain ideas that transcended territorial origin,
                          occupation and estate. A good lesson for all of us in this day and age.

                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > [3,500,000 inhabitants
                          > > (Kenneth W. Harl, Tulane U. 1998)]. Likewise, (Stanley Payne, 1973)
                          > > concluded that the same number existed after the time of Alaric II
                          > > (484-507); a ratio of (11.66) to (1). The later ratio is in fact
                          > close
                          > > to the present ratio of African-Americans to European Americans in
                          > the
                          > > U.S, a sizable element in the overall population. Even so, it is
                          > > further thought that despite pressures from disease etc; the
                          > > Visigothic law of "thirds", (where 2/3 of each Hispano-Roman villa
                          > was
                          > > confiscated by Visigoths), would have given the Visigoths a greater
                          > > advantage in increasing their numbers, that, since the ability to
                          > > raise comestibles by having more land and better soils would have
                          > > favored Visigoth families over those who had poor soil and less land
                          > > and could not raise as much food. Furthermore, by projecting the
                          > > previous trend to 711CE (a period of some 200 years) it is quite
                          > > conceivable that the Visigoths could have narrowed the previously
                          > > stated ratio to as little as 10 to 1. You must also notice that I
                          > have
                          > > not factored-in other people Germanic people already in the
                          > peninsula,
                          > > they are simply not included as part of the Visigothic population,
                          > > namely the Suebi, which probably numbered around 80,000, and the
                          > > remnant Vandals that remained in Spain or returned to the Balearic
                          > > Islands and elsewhere after their ruinous mission to the south,
                          > > however these were probably few. � Nonetheless, underpinning the
                          > best
                          > > estimate of Visigoth admixture in Spain is the presence of suspect
                          > > genetic signatures in the Y-chromosome and/or mtDNA of extant
                          > > individuals where an inference may be made. The latter is in the
                          > > process of being collected from the extant populations of (Spain,
                          > > Pomerania, Gotland, and Southern Sweden as well as other suspected
                          > > homelands.
                          >
                          > Faltin writes:
                          >
                          > One cannot, but smile and shake ones head at such nonsense.
                          > I am sure you will succeed in calculating the Spanish into a Germanic
                          > people, strange only that most of them just don't look the part;-)
                          > Dirk

                          F.E.J.D. writes:
                          The last part of my post seems to have made you writhe uncomfortably.
                          I can actually picture you "shaking your head" in disgust.
                          However, I ask myself however, why would you say such things? It is
                          terribly discourteous and unprofessional to behave in such a way
                          towards anyone. If you have disagreements, I suggest you substantiate
                          them (as I have) in an intellectual cogent manner. Instead, you attack
                          me in an ad hominem manner. Such tactics are a sign that you can no
                          longer defend your points through reason.
                          FURTHERMORE:
                          WHAT YOU STATE, (THAT IS), THAT I WILL "SUCCEED IN CALCULATING THE
                          SPANISH INTO A GERMANIC PEOPLE" IS PATENTLY SLANDEROUS TOWARDS ME, MY
                          RESEARCH FELLOWS AND OUR PROFESSIONAL ETHICS. I WOULD ((( NEVER )))
                          WILLINGLY CAUSE AN EXPERIMENT OR STUDY TO SKEW IN ANY DIRECTION. to be
                          ACCUSED OF THAT BY ANYONE IS BEYOND THE PALE.
                          BE ADVICED THAT IF YOU WERE PRESENTLY IN THIS COUNTRY, I WOULD BRING A
                          LAW SUIT AGAINST YOU IMMEDIATELY. OUR CONSTITUTION DOES �NOT- PROTECT
                          SLANDEROUS SPEECH. THUS, BE ADVICED ---- YOUR COMMENTS WERE PATENTLY
                          SLANDEROUS.
                          I ALSO ASK THE MODERATOR TO TAKE NOTICE (SINCE THIS LIST IS IN THE
                          UNITED STATS), I HOPE THAT PROPER ACTION BE BROUGHT AGAINST YOU; NOT
                          ONLY FOR YOUR SLANDEROUS STATEMENTS BUT ALSO FOR YOUR RACIST COMMENTS
                          WHICH HEREAFTER I SHALL MAKE KNOWN. THEY ARE FOUND AT THE END OF YOUR
                          CLOSING.
                          ((( I HOPE EVERYONE HAS PICKED-UP ON THEM)) AND I HOPE THEY ARE ALSO
                          PASSED ON TO THE GERMANIC LIST IN WHICH YOU ARE ALSO A MEMBER.

                          YOUR COMMENTS STATE:
                          >"I am sure you will succeed in calculating the Spanish into a Germanic
                          > people, strange only that most of them just don't look the part;-)
                          > Dirk

                          You end your statement with an emoticon (how mature). Obviously the
                          winking emoticon is meant to be condescending and dismissive of the
                          idea that Spaniards could ever be partly descended from Visigoths. It
                          is purposely meant to be a disparaging remark to all Spaniards and me.
                          Had you stated the same phrase in a scholarly manner it would have
                          been taken as a bonafide question, however, your choice of words
                          followed by the emoticon clearly betray your intentions, it in fact
                          was meant to be clearly derogatory and offensive. EVERYONE - PLEASE
                          TAKE NOTICE!

                          Here, it is plainly evident you think people have to look a certain
                          way in order to be of Germanic ancestry (but how about those
                          individuals of full "Germanic ancestry" that are not the
                          "stereotypical idea" of Germanic, that is blond and blue-eyed)? Take
                          for example Franz Josef Wenzel, the prince of Liechtenstein and so
                          many others. And by the way, just what, in your opinion, do Germanic
                          people have to look like Herr Faltin?
                          ? Please substantiate your opinion ----- However, I suspect that you
                          won't since citing racist or anthropologically discredited literature
                          would immediately give you away and disclose exactly what you are and
                          feel. It is quite clear that you think most Spaniards do not meet your
                          criteria. That is why you constantly chafe every time someone brings
                          up the question of Visigothic descent in the Spanish populace. I say,
                          if one is partly descended from a certain people group then let the
                          genes speak for themselves, but I wonder if "you" would submit to
                          being genotyped? --- I wonder if you would be surprised?
                          You nonetheless, seem to chafe at the very idea that Spaniards are
                          partly descended from Visigoths who inhabited a common homeland. In
                          turn you ascribe to us decent from certain people groups at rates that
                          are not scientifically tenable and that (without sources and content).
                          The proof that you have done so is all over this list's archives. In
                          months past, your answers to me and to other individuals citing
                          anything to do with Visigothic heritage have been consistently
                          UNSUBSTANTIATED and full of negative opinion and dismissive comments.
                          I wonder---- what could be your reasons for doing so?
                          Anthropologically, both of your assertions are patently incorrect and
                          laughable. I will not dignify them with further answers.

                          Quite evidently you have shown your true colors, (pun intended).

                          Lastly, I am only a molecular anthropologist whose only desire is to
                          know how we got here, our descent. That sir is what drives me. The
                          Spanish people are what they are. I have no subjective desire to be or
                          to make others seem what we are not, whether "Germanic" or part of any
                          other people group. The very idea of desiring to be what we are not is
                          quite absurd anyway don't you think? Rather, we search such
                          connections in our genome because humans are curious about the world,
                          because we want to connect to our other fellow humans in profound and
                          intimate ways and because it is potentially expedient from a medical
                          point of view. It is also wonderful that we have such a tool in
                          genetics to let us search our connections and dispel the racist
                          theories and quackery so rampant today. All of us are actually related
                          anyway.

                          Actually I was going to answer Faltin's other post but I will not
                          dignify its contents nor take up this list' s time and bandwidth
                          unless the moderator and a majority feel that I ought to do so.

                          I send this in haste, please pardon grammatical errors and
                          LASTLY; beg the lists pardon for having to write this.

                          Thank you all,
                          F.E.J.D.






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                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Ingemar Nordgren
                          ... this? ... Hi F.E.J.D., I am sorry but you are wrong out. Fritigern is correct but Alaric is a much later thing and with him the Visigoths form during that
                          Message 12 of 28 , May 28, 2004
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                            --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, F. E. Jiménez Díaz <visigoth@a...> wrote:
                            > BTW Upon re reading my previous entry I would like to clarify that it
                            > was Fritigern at Hadrianople (over Valens), however, somehow I recall
                            > that Alaric might have been one of the Generals. Can someone clarify
                            this?
                            > Thanks,
                            > F.E.J.D.


                            Hi F.E.J.D.,

                            I am sorry but you are wrong out. Fritigern is correct but Alaric is a
                            much later thing and with him the Visigoths form during that very
                            name. Fritgern was a Vesi-Tervingi coming over the limes from
                            Gutþiuda/Romania after the Hunnic attack in 376.

                            Best
                            Ingemar
                          • Fern
                            Ingemar, Thanks for the information, I guess Alaric must have been a young boy or adolescent at the time of Hadrianople Cheers, F.J. ... [Non-text portions of
                            Message 13 of 28 , May 29, 2004
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                              Ingemar,
                              Thanks for the information, I guess Alaric must have been a young boy or
                              adolescent at the time of Hadrianople

                              Cheers,
                              F.J.


                              Ingemar Nordgren wrote:

                              > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, F. E. Jiménez Díaz <visigoth@a...> wrote:
                              > > BTW Upon re reading my previous entry I would like to clarify that it
                              > > was Fritigern at Hadrianople (over Valens), however, somehow I recall
                              > > that Alaric might have been one of the Generals. Can someone clarify
                              > this?
                              > > Thanks,
                              > > F.E.J.D.
                              >
                              >
                              > Hi F.E.J.D.,
                              >
                              > I am sorry but you are wrong out. Fritigern is correct but Alaric is a
                              > much later thing and with him the Visigoths form during that very
                              > name. Fritgern was a Vesi-Tervingi coming over the limes from
                              > Gutþiuda/Romania after the Hunnic attack in 376.
                              >
                              > Best
                              > Ingemar
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a blank
                              > email to <gothic-l-unsubscribe@egroups.com>.
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                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • faltin2001
                              ... it ... recall ... clarify this? ... Hi, Alaric lived at the begining of the 5th century. The battle of Adrianople took place at the end of the 4th century.
                              Message 14 of 28 , Jun 4, 2004
                              • 0 Attachment
                                --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, F. E. Jiménez Díaz <visigoth@a...>
                                wrote:
                                > BTW Upon re reading my previous entry I would like to clarify that
                                it
                                > was Fritigern at Hadrianople (over Valens), however, somehow I
                                recall
                                > that Alaric might have been one of the Generals. Can someone
                                clarify this?
                                > Thanks,
                                > F.E.J.D.


                                Hi,

                                Alaric lived at the begining of the 5th century. The battle of
                                Adrianople took place at the end of the 4th century.

                                Cheers
                                Dirk
                              • faltin2001
                                ... that ... A very sacrosanct, but highly cynical and offensive tone I detect here. ... Yes, and without recourse to cyncicism;-) I do ... No, that is not
                                Message 15 of 28 , Jun 4, 2004
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                                  --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, F. E. Jiménez Díaz <visigoth@a...>
                                  wrote:
                                  > My goodness Herr Faltin,
                                  > My post seems to have made you become unhinged. Please be assured
                                  that
                                  > my intention was not to make you uncomfortable or have you take a
                                  > flight of fancy as you have done trying to deconstruct what I have
                                  > written.





                                  A very sacrosanct, but highly cynical and offensive tone I detect
                                  here.






                                  > Indeed I do hope that we are able to correct one another's mistakes
                                  > when mistakes are made but we should do so politely and cogently.






                                  Yes, and without recourse to cyncicism;-)







                                  I do
                                  > admit that in haste I substituted Varus for Valens but that is all,







                                  No, that is not all. Your post is full of misinterpretations or lets
                                  say misunderstandings and a few genuine confusions as you admitted
                                  yourself.








                                  > (very similar names you know) about which you made some hay. Most
                                  > decent people would have rather politely pointed to the oversight.








                                  Your tone is still very offensive to me.











                                  > Even so, though not a historically accepted appellation I will
                                  choose
                                  > to call Alaric's Gothic Victory over Valens, the "Clades Valensiana"
                                  > (sic).




                                  Lets call it battle of Adrianopel and everybody will know what mean.






                                  > Furthermore, my observation of your comportment stands. - I
                                  carefully
                                  > read through your posts #7601 and 7602. Your efforts were not
                                  > rebuttals but reactions, so strident, so uninformed and so
                                  > misrepresentative of ideas that I would not have answered them had I
                                  > not read to the very end where you make a deliberate ad hominem
                                  > attack, and even worse, a slur I shall not dignify. You sir, have
                                  done
                                  > great harm to whatever credibility you might have had in these
                                  groups.







                                  Well, your in my view nationallistically teinted posts certainly did
                                  nothing for your credibility.









                                  > It is also a disservice to the members of this list to demonstrate
                                  > such unprofessional behavior.




                                  dito





                                  >
                                  > I hope everyone will read this and my next post in its entirety and
                                  > let things stand on their merit. Even so, I am still willing to
                                  > apologize if my original post made you uncomfortable in any way.
                                  >






                                  I think your posts would make many people uncomfortable who detest
                                  the deliberate twisting and bending of history for the purpose of
                                  agrandisation of a specific ethnic group. But your apology (if meant
                                  sincerely) is accepted!









                                  <snip>









                                  >
                                  > > > F.E.J.D. writes:
                                  > > > Presently Leonardo, genetic haplotyping has minimized the
                                  inaccuracy
                                  > > > of population studies, which relied solely on historical data,
                                  > > > craniometry and typology and other circuitous and highly
                                  > > > interpretational methods. No longer do we have to accept > >
                                  > unreliable
                                  > > > and/or sometimes "ulterior" subjective opinions on such things
                                  as
                                  > > the
                                  > > > genetic contribution of people groups such as Visigoths (the
                                  largest
                                  > > > of ALL Germanic tribes)
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > Faltin writes:
                                  > >
                                  > > There is so much wrong with this text that I point out only a few
                                  > > things. The Visigoths were certainly not the largest of all
                                  Germanic
                                  > > tribes. Franks, Saxons, Alamannians, Anglo-Saxons, Bavarians and
                                  the
                                  > >North Germanic peoples were all much larger than the >Visigoths.
                                  >
                                  > F.E.J.D. writes:
                                  > First of all, please provide sources and content and stop hiding
                                  > behind your opinion.
                                  > Give us population numbers and approximate dates with citations for
                                  > all of the people groups you state.







                                  Sorry, I assumed that you are familiar with the relevant literature,
                                  but I should have noticed that you are not, otherwise you would not
                                  have stated that the Visigoths were the largest of "all" Germanic
                                  peoples. For literature on this please refer to Bruno Krueger "Die
                                  Germanen", vol 2, but really this is so well known that I am really
                                  surprised by your comment.










                                  >
                                  > Secondly, it is a matter of historic fact that there were only three
                                  > sizable Germanic tribes in Iberia (the Visigoths, Vandals and Suebi)
                                  > and the Visigoths were by far the largest.




                                  Well, you wrote of "ALL" Germanic peoples, not just Vandals and Suebi.







                                  > Actually, people would have read my thought in its correct context
                                  had
                                  > you not snipped the text at the point which you inserted your
                                  > comments. The way it is snipped and separated by your comments (at
                                  mid
                                  > sentence) is rather convenient though. Is it not?
                                  > Now that you brought up the "Franks, Saxons, Alamannians,
                                  > Anglo-Saxons, Bavarians and the North Germanic peoples" as being
                                  > larger, you must prove the point.
                                  > Again - give us population numbers and approximate dates with
                                  > citations for all of the people groups you state.







                                  Again, refer to Krueger's work which will provide you will all the
                                  information you are lacking in this respect.







                                  ---- However, you
                                  > will surely encounter that tribal groups in Europe at the time I
                                  cite
                                  > population numbers for the Visigoths (who's estimated population has
                                  > some verifiability) are extremely difficult to attain since these
                                  > purported tribes were extremely amorphous entities having few
                                  > verifiable geographic delineations, and in an almost constant
                                  process
                                  > of blending in and out of disparate groups. Therefore arriving at
                                  > meaningful population numbers is extremely difficult. The latter is
                                  > certainly so for the West Germans, (who were mainly farmers), since
                                  > certain of the West German tribes we have come to know; the Franks
                                  and
                                  > Saxons, were amalgamations of many smaller people groups having
                                  loose
                                  > ties. The latter is especially true of the Alemanni, the tribal
                                  group
                                  > from which some European states derive their name for the modern
                                  state
                                  > of Germany. The name Aleman simply means "all men" denoting a
                                  melting
                                  > pot of the checkerboard of people sharing similar culture that came
                                  to
                                  > be known as Germany.





                                  Are you now trying to insult may native country? The Alamanni did not
                                  form the sole basis for what is known as Germany today. This, also
                                  includes Saxons, Bavarians, Hessian, Franks, Frisians and many more.
                                  The Alamanni consisted almost exclusively of Elbe Germanic groups,
                                  probably mostly Semnones and Hermunduri. They later incorporated also
                                  people like Thuringians, and eastern Danube Suebi, while
                                  archaeological evidence suggests the settlement of Gepids in the
                                  Basle region as well.







                                  > . The Alemanni were in fact a composite nation formed from the
                                  Suevian
                                  > and other tribes, on the upper Rhine; same goes for the Franks.
                                  People
                                  > on the lower Rhine formed a "loose" conglomerate under that name. In
                                  > fact, most of the tribes in Central Europe remained largely
                                  amorphous
                                  > and unfocused until quite late, as is the case of the Franks who
                                  > largely remain that way until just before the time they are reported
                                  > as harassing the Visigoths.
                                  > Interestingly, quite often scholars have questioned the extent to
                                  > which these small tribes were committed to one another or to a
                                  larger
                                  > parent tribe. The only evidence of such is a text of Ammianus
                                  > Marcellinus that refers to the pactum vicissitudinis redendae, a
                                  pact
                                  > just promising mutual aid; ------- so much, for the cohesiveness of
                                  > these (great tribes?). It is just mere common sense that tribes
                                  could
                                  > not have had much association with one another or that many large
                                  > tribes could have existed in the type of dense forests typical in
                                  > Central Europe at the time and well into the early medieval period.
                                  > "Bury states that we must picture Germany as consisting of small
                                  > territories each of which was surrounded by a dense impenetrable
                                  ring
                                  > of primeval forest". That ring of woodland impeded attack from other
                                  > tribes around them. It is known through archaeological evidence that
                                  > "tribal groups" existed in small territories that were claimed from
                                  > these dense woodlands. Small tribes grew into large ones and much,
                                  > much later into Nation states when these small tribes grew and had
                                  to
                                  > chop down more of the forest for their expansion. The latter allowed
                                  > small tribes to come into contact with other tribes and to establish
                                  > some sort of (treaty or understanding) between one another in order
                                  to
                                  > keep war at bay etc.






                                  Nevertheless, people like the Alamanni had a shared common identity
                                  and did act as united polities when needed. Thus, the population of
                                  the Alamannia amounted to about 500,000 to 800,000 mln according to
                                  most estimates and if we believe Marcellinus they fielded an army of
                                  70,000.








                                  The reason that East German tribes were large is
                                  > because the geographic and environmental area in which they lived
                                  was
                                  > not densely wooded but rather open and prairie-like and for the most
                                  > part were not sedentary farmers.
                                  > (Please see The Invasion of Europe by the Barbarians. Especially
                                  pp10.)
                                  >











                                  >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > to the Spanish population. Simply by
                                  > > > understanding, contrasting and comparing the relevant
                                  haplogroups
                                  > >>and.
                                  >
                                  > > > haplotypes within a given population one is able to tell if
                                  there
                                  > > has
                                  > > > been any extraneous admixture. It is interesting however that
                                  before
                                  > > > there was haplotyping it had been thought (quite correctly) by
                                  many
                                  > > > scholars, that the Visigoths numbered
                                  > > approximately
                                  > > > 300,000 in a peninsula of (at the time)
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > Faltin writes:
                                  > > This is likely far to high a number. More like 100,000 perhaps
                                  more
                                  > > and many of them were, according to the historical sources,
                                  hangers
                                  > > on. Runaway Roman peasants, slaves, Roman mine workers and so on,
                                  >
                                  > > who joined the Visigoths on their way to Spain.
                                  > >
                                  >


                                  > F.E.J.D. writes:
                                  > There is wide debate in this actual number. I've seen as much as
                                  > 500,000 and as little as 100,000, nonetheless...You AGAIN fail to
                                  > provide sources and content;




                                  As you say yourself estimates range widely between 100k and 500k. So
                                  why restate sources that you say you know yourself.








                                  this time, in order to substantiate your
                                  > estimate and the idea that many Visigoths were in fact not from
                                  > Germanic people groups but rather "hangers on" et al.
                                  >
                                  > Here, you are making a point of quantifying (AND QUALIFYING), when
                                  it
                                  > was only necessary to quantify the number of Visigoths. You qualify
                                  > the types of individuals who joined the Visigoths by emphasizing
                                  that
                                  > "many" of those that joined were Roman and on (what has historically
                                  > been termed) the margins of society. You do so by using such words
                                  as
                                  > "hangers on" "Slaves", "peasants", "mine workers", etc. On the other
                                  > hand you avoid using individuals having other estates and
                                  occupations,
                                  > which may have also joined Visigothic ranks.





                                  The Roman historian who provided us with this information used
                                  exactly these terms. I would have to look up the source, but it is
                                  once again a well established fact that the ranks of the migrating
                                  Visigoths were swelled by people on the margins of society,
                                  especially poor Roman peasants, runaway slavs and disgruntled miners.








                                  Though it is true that
                                  > the lower classes openly welcomed the Visigoths. It is also true
                                  that
                                  > you deliberately inserted QUALIFYING criteria when qualifying
                                  criteria
                                  > was not needed.




                                  You get this wrong completely, I just used the terms provided in the
                                  sources. You were obviously keen to show that the modern Spanish
                                  population is significantly Germanic, which I think is wrong because:

                                  a) I think the number of the Visigoths are overstated
                                  b) the Visigoths included large parts of non-Germanic people.










                                  Your insertion of just certain types of estates and
                                  > occupations is also rather curious since it is extraneous to the
                                  > question of (how many individuals comprised the Visigoths and then
                                  > other tribes). The latter makes it appear that you inserted the
                                  latter
                                  > purposely.



                                  see above.



                                  Furthermore, I can think of no other reason for doing so
                                  > other that to qualify the types of people that entered Spain.



                                  I recommmend you read the relevant sources.




                                  > Therefore you selectively make it seem that "many" Visigoths that
                                  > entered Spain were in fact not the descendants of ethnic Visigoths
                                  but
                                  > rather Romans and slaves, what has historically been considered as
                                  the
                                  > offal of society. Could it be that you would want readers to come
                                  away
                                  > with the idea that the Visigoths that entered Spain were less
                                  > desirable or somehow tainted by such individuals among their ranks?





                                  You should not engage in speculation without reading the relevant
                                  sources first. Have a look at Wolfram's book which will direct you to
                                  the primary source.









                                  > Could it also be that you would like others to think that the
                                  Spanish
                                  > populace are in part descended from (as you say) "slaves, peasants
                                  > etc..." If so, let it be.






                                  Slaves, peasants and miners were part of the heritage of most modern
                                  population. I think you will agree that your argumentation is now
                                  absurd.







                                  However, your point is absurd, one cannot
                                  > delineate the Visigoths in such away. Though it is now obvious that
                                  > they were not all direct descendants of the original people groups
                                  > that we have come to know as Goths. They were more importantly the
                                  > originators and representatives of certain ideas that greatly
                                  impacted
                                  > the European world, which is why they are interesting and worthy of
                                  > study. As such, whatever type of individual joined their ranks
                                  matters
                                  > little. They certainly held together well by culture and language
                                  but
                                  > certainly also by certain ideas that transcended territorial origin,
                                  > occupation and estate. A good lesson for all of us in this day and
                                  age.
                                  >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > [3,500,000 inhabitants
                                  > > > (Kenneth W. Harl, Tulane U. 1998)]. Likewise, (Stanley Payne,
                                  1973)
                                  > > > concluded that the same number existed after the time of Alaric
                                  II
                                  > > > (484-507); a ratio of (11.66) to (1). The later ratio is in
                                  fact
                                  > > close
                                  > > > to the present ratio of African-Americans to European Americans
                                  in
                                  > > the
                                  > > > U.S, a sizable element in the overall population. Even so, it is
                                  > > > further thought that despite pressures from disease etc; the
                                  > > > Visigothic law of "thirds", (where 2/3 of each Hispano-Roman
                                  villa
                                  > > was
                                  > > > confiscated by Visigoths), would have given the Visigoths a
                                  greater
                                  > > > advantage in increasing their numbers, that, since the ability
                                  to
                                  > > > raise comestibles by having more land and better soils would
                                  have
                                  > > > favored Visigoth families over those who had poor soil and less
                                  land
                                  > > > and could not raise as much food. Furthermore, by projecting the
                                  > > > previous trend to 711CE (a period of some 200 years) it is
                                  quite
                                  > > > conceivable that the Visigoths could have narrowed the
                                  previously
                                  > > > stated ratio to as little as 10 to 1. You must also notice that
                                  I
                                  > > have
                                  > > > not factored-in other people Germanic people already in the
                                  > > peninsula,
                                  > > > they are simply not included as part of the Visigothic
                                  population,
                                  > > > namely the Suebi, which probably numbered around 80,000, and the
                                  > > > remnant Vandals that remained in Spain or returned to the
                                  Balearic
                                  > > > Islands and elsewhere after their ruinous mission to the south,
                                  > > > however these were probably few. – Nonetheless, underpinning
                                  the
                                  > > best
                                  > > > estimate of Visigoth admixture in Spain is the presence of
                                  suspect
                                  > > > genetic signatures in the Y-chromosome and/or mtDNA of extant
                                  > > > individuals where an inference may be made. The latter is in the
                                  > > > process of being collected from the extant populations of
                                  (Spain,
                                  > > > Pomerania, Gotland, and Southern Sweden as well as other
                                  suspected
                                  > > > homelands.
                                  > >
                                  > > Faltin writes:
                                  > >
                                  > > One cannot, but smile and shake ones head at such nonsense.
                                  > > I am sure you will succeed in calculating the Spanish into a
                                  Germanic
                                  > > people, strange only that most of them just don't look the part;-)
                                  > > Dirk
                                  >
                                  > F.E.J.D. writes:
                                  > The last part of my post seems to have made you writhe
                                  uncomfortably.
                                  > I can actually picture you "shaking your head" in disgust.
                                  > However, I ask myself however, why would you say such things? It is
                                  > terribly discourteous and unprofessional to behave in such a way
                                  > towards anyone. If you have disagreements, I suggest you
                                  substantiate
                                  > them (as I have) in an intellectual cogent manner.



                                  F.E.J.D, my aim was not to attack Spaniards or the Spanish nation and
                                  I have not done so. In contrast, my aim was to give due notice to the
                                  true ethnic heritage of the Spaniards, who are not Germanic but who
                                  certainly have absorbed some Germanic people about 1500 years ago. If
                                  you reread your texts, you might see that you constantly glorify the
                                  Visigothic people out of all proportions and that you seek to give
                                  the impression that modern Spaniards are essentially Visigoths or
                                  largly Germanic. They are not in my view. Instead, they include a
                                  rich mixure of ethnic groups including people like Celt-Iberians,
                                  Romans, Greeks, North Africans, Jews and of course Germanics. I did
                                  perceive your texts as highly nationalistic and they did make me
                                  uncomfortable as you rightly expected. You have apologised for this
                                  and I have accepted. I apologise for my final sentence, which was
                                  never intended to be slanderous, but it was intended as bonafide
                                  remark reflecting may overall disapproval with the tone of your
                                  posts.

                                  Cheers
                                  Dirk
                                • faltin2001
                                  ... Dirk: We all know little about the Goths, because only little is known about the Goths in general, but I have read all (or most) of the literature on the
                                  Message 16 of 28 , Jun 4, 2004
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                                    --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, OSCAR HERRERA <duke.co@s...> wrote:
                                    > oscargoth- dirk you know little of the goths.


                                    Dirk:
                                    We all know little about the Goths, because only little is known
                                    about the Goths in general, but I have read all (or most) of the
                                    literature on the Goths.





                                    Oscar:
                                    how spanish was invoked as a language ,well lets say we dont know.


                                    Dirk:
                                    We don't? Well is Spanish not a Romanic language?




                                    Oscar:
                                    it was spoken there before the romans arrived.




                                    Dirk:
                                    I doubt that this is correct to be honest. The Roman period in Spain
                                    is very important and Spanish, as a romanic language is a direct
                                    result.





                                    Oscar:
                                    the goths on the other hand were a well adapting germanic tribe and
                                    were very loyal to their own language




                                    Dirk:
                                    That is wrong I am afraid. They did keep their Germanic names, thus
                                    adhereing to Germanic namining practices which they shared also with
                                    other Germanic groups, but especially the Visigoths lost their
                                    Germanic language at an early time. The Visigoths arrive in Spain at
                                    the end of the 5th century and then in larger numbers after the
                                    catastrophic defeat inflicted by the Francs in 507AD. To what extend
                                    they still spoke Gothic at that time is uncertain, but by the middle
                                    of the 6th century a source distinguishes them as the Roman Goths to
                                    denote the fact that they had mostly become Latin speakers.






                                    Oscar:
                                    as shown by many gothic kings that ruled in spain prior to the moors
                                    invasion. their names were germanic,such as
                                    sisabut,sigeric,wallia,theudigiesel and on


                                    Dirk:
                                    Yes, Germanic naming practice was conservative and could not easily
                                    be transfered to Latin names.



                                    Oscar:
                                    ....history also said the goths drove the moors out.....



                                    Dirk:
                                    The Visigoths lost most of Spain and certainly their kingdom in Spain
                                    to the Moors. They did not drive them out. The Moslems were finally
                                    driven out by Spaniards not Goths centuries later.






                                    Oscar:
                                    so, why did these people give up their language and change spanish to
                                    its present pronunciation instead of invoking the gothic language and
                                    using a liitle spanish in it.


                                    Dirk:
                                    Because they were a small minority that was enitrely dependent on a
                                    Roman/Latin civil and clerical administration.





                                    Oscar:
                                    in conclusion gothic is nice to speak and i think the germanic
                                    peoples of europe should be entitled to more than just a few germanic
                                    languages spoken in north europe...



                                    Dirk:

                                    that is an entirely different matter. You and all Spaniards can speak
                                    and revive as much Gothic as they like, but it does not change the
                                    true ethnic composition of Spain and it does not change the history
                                    of that country either.

                                    One of the best books on the Visigoths is "Adel, Kirche und Königtum
                                    im Westgotenreich" by Dietrich Claude. I strongly recommend this for
                                    all who are interested in discussing Visigothic Spain.

                                    Cheers
                                    Dirk
                                  • faltin2001
                                    ... posting, which clears up the other one which arrogantly belittled the Visigothic contribution to the Iberic Peninsula. It seems that many scholars nowadays
                                    Message 17 of 28 , Jun 4, 2004
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                                      --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Jorge Alexandre S G <dowrgwyns@y...>

                                      wrote:
                                      > It was very comforting to read this superb and scientifically based
                                      posting, which clears up the other one which arrogantly belittled the
                                      Visigothic contribution to the Iberic Peninsula.
                                      It seems that many scholars nowadays are actually politically
                                      biased ,which shows in itself the great danger of science being seen
                                      as truely neutral, as I once learned when I took one year of Social
                                      Sciences ,cause its objectivity is only an ideal,its being highly
                                      influenced by many subjective and political reasons.


                                      Dirk:
                                      That is true, and that is why some people glorify ethnic groups and
                                      distort their history. Certainly, these distortions are often to the
                                      taste of many people, which, however, does not make them any more
                                      correct.

                                      Cheers
                                      Dirk
                                    • Denis Glenard
                                      Hi Dirk, Hi everyone, I m not a scholar in these things, but there are a couple points from your previous Emails I d like to press here: Dirk: I doubt that
                                      Message 18 of 28 , Jun 4, 2004
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                                        Hi Dirk,
                                        Hi everyone,

                                        I'm not a scholar in these things, but there are a couple points from your previous Emails I'd like to press here:

                                        "Dirk:
                                        I doubt that this is correct to be honest. The Roman period in Spain
                                        is very important and Spanish, as a romanic language is a direct
                                        result."

                                        Spanish is definitely a romance language. We should perhaps be very precise and call it castilian, as there are many other languages in Spain.
                                        Castilian is only a romance dialect, mainly spoken by the southern basques/castilians at the beginning of the 2nd millenium, hence the pronunciation of modern "spanish" is derived from basque (that's why they "sound" the same). The fact that the Reconquista was undertaken from the northern territories, including the Basque Country, helped impose this dialect as the main one in the kingdom, although many others were and still are spoken locally (whether these are languages or dialects is not relevant here, there are many battles going around this, quite a few of them political).

                                        The Iberian language, the language spoken before the Roman invasion of Spain, is quite well known. It has it's own alphabet and although some of it is still not understood, progress is made every year.

                                        Modern Spanish language is therefore made of bits and pieces taken from the languages spoken by it's invaders and original inhabitants, Celts, Iberians, Basque, Goths, Moors, etc. in varyiing degrees, obviously.

                                        Dirk, you state in your other Email : "modern Spaniards (...) include a
                                        rich mixure of ethnic groups including people like Celt-Iberians,
                                        Romans, Greeks, North Africans, Jews and of course Germanics."

                                        I resent your leaving out the Basque, who were there before almost all of the other ethnic groups, who have fought every battle to free Spain from every kind of invader. You also leave out the Phoenicians (the palm fields in Elche (Elx) were planted by them as a food resource for their maritime trips) and the Cartaginese (although one could say they're part of the "north Africans").
                                        I'm not sure either I agree with you assertion of the mixture with the Moors and Jews. The mixture was rare, for religious, not race reasons.
                                        The Moors (who weren't that many to start with) did not take in converts, simply beacause christians paid more taxes. As for Jews, it is a well known fact that they do not proselytise and you are only Jewish because your mother was Jewish. This is why it was easy for the Catholic Kings to root out Muslims and Jews in 1492; had they been mixed within the general population, it would have been impossible.
                                        This of course does not mean 100% separation, just that mixing was so small than it would probably be impossible to trace nowadays.

                                        Sorry if I've been a bit long on this one, but the Basque can never be taken for granted ;-)))

                                        Denis GLENARD








                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      • faltin2001
                                        ... Spain ... precise and call it castilian, as there are many other languages in Spain. ... basques/castilians at the beginning of the 2nd millenium, hence
                                        Message 19 of 28 , Jun 4, 2004
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                                          --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "Denis Glenard" <denisglenard@y...>
                                          wrote:
                                          > Hi Dirk,
                                          > Hi everyone,
                                          >
                                          > I'm not a scholar in these things, but there are a couple points
                                          from your previous Emails I'd like to press here:
                                          >
                                          > "Dirk:
                                          > I doubt that this is correct to be honest. The Roman period in
                                          Spain
                                          > is very important and Spanish, as a romanic language is a direct
                                          > result."
                                          >
                                          > Spanish is definitely a romance language. We should perhaps be very
                                          precise and call it castilian, as there are many other languages in
                                          Spain.
                                          > Castilian is only a romance dialect, mainly spoken by the southern
                                          basques/castilians at the beginning of the 2nd millenium, hence the
                                          pronunciation of modern "spanish" is derived from basque (that's why
                                          they "sound" the same). The fact that the Reconquista was undertaken
                                          from the northern territories, including the Basque Country, helped
                                          impose this dialect as the main one in the kingdom, although many
                                          others were and still are spoken locally (whether these are languages
                                          or dialects is not relevant here, there are many battles going around
                                          this, quite a few of them political).



                                          Hi Dennis,

                                          thanks for elaborating the point. This is exactly what I thought as
                                          well. Thus, Spanish is a Romanic language of course and Spanish is
                                          due to the Roman presence in Spain.






                                          >
                                          > The Iberian language, the language spoken before the Roman invasion
                                          of Spain, is quite well known. It has it's own alphabet and although
                                          some of it is still not understood, progress is made every year.
                                          >


                                          Dirk:
                                          Yes, an intesting alphabet too which bears casual similarity with
                                          Germanic runes, although it has nothing to do with Runes.





                                          > Modern Spanish language is therefore made of bits and pieces taken
                                          from the languages spoken by it's invaders and original inhabitants,
                                          Celts, Iberians, Basque, Goths, Moors, etc. in varyiing degrees,
                                          obviously.



                                          Dirk:
                                          Yep, but nontheless Spanish is clearly recognisable a Romanic
                                          language it is infact so close to Italian that Italian often claim to
                                          understand Spanish without any prior study.







                                          >
                                          > Dirk, you state in your other Email : "modern Spaniards (...)
                                          include a
                                          > rich mixure of ethnic groups including people like Celt-Iberians,
                                          > Romans, Greeks, North Africans, Jews and of course Germanics."
                                          >
                                          > I resent your leaving out the Basque, who were there before almost
                                          all of the other ethnic groups, who have fought every battle to free
                                          Spain from every kind of invader.



                                          Dirk:
                                          True, I just foregot the Basques. In fact, I probably foregot a few
                                          more other groups and I did not claim to have presented a
                                          comprehensive list. The Basques are however, more important and
                                          should not be left out.







                                          Denis:
                                          You also leave out the Phoenicians (the palm fields in Elche (Elx)
                                          were planted by them as a food resource for their maritime trips) and
                                          the Cartaginese (although one could say they're part of the "north
                                          Africans").


                                          Dirk:
                                          As I said the list was not meant to include all.




                                          Denis:
                                          > I'm not sure either I agree with you assertion of the mixture with
                                          the Moors and Jews. The mixture was rare, for religious, not race
                                          reasons.




                                          Dirk:
                                          We certainly know that Visigoths and Moors intermarried at the
                                          highest levels of society. Many Spanish Jews converted to Catholicsim
                                          thus removing the religious barrier. Spain traditionally had a very
                                          strong Jewish population and I guess a lot of intermarriage took
                                          place over time, but I cannot be certain.








                                          Denis:
                                          > The Moors (who weren't that many to start with) did not take in
                                          converts, simply beacause christians paid more taxes.





                                          As I said we know that the Moslem elite married with Visigothic
                                          elites. So the barrier cannot have been too high. Also, I included
                                          the Berbers with the actual Arabs.






                                          Denis:
                                          As for Jews, it is a well known fact that they do not proselytise and
                                          you are only Jewish because your mother was Jewish. This is why it
                                          was easy for the Catholic Kings to root out Muslims and Jews in 1492;
                                          had they been mixed within the general population, it would have been
                                          impossible.



                                          Dirk
                                          That is probably correct, but we are discussing ethnic (non-
                                          religious) backgrounds. Thus, many Spanish Jews converted to
                                          Catholicism (I think there was even a special name for them) and
                                          those will to a large extend have been absorbed into the modern
                                          Spanish population.






                                          > This of course does not mean 100% separation, just that mixing was
                                          so small than it would probably be impossible to trace nowadays.


                                          Dirk:
                                          That might be the case, but this is probably also true for the
                                          Visigothic input.




                                          >
                                          > Sorry if I've been a bit long on this one, but the Basque can never
                                          be taken for granted ;-)))
                                          >



                                          Newer research suggests that the Basques may have played a much
                                          bigger role in holding of the Moslems from the North than was
                                          traditionally acknowledged.

                                          Cheers
                                          Dirk
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