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Re: Gothic equivalent for English 'must'

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  • llama_nom
    ... when ... Right on all counts, I think. Also, Skuld, the name of a norn... Llama Nom
    Message 1 of 15 , May 14, 2004
      --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "faltin2001" <dirk@s...> wrote:

      > I guess Gothic 'nauths' is related to mod. German 'Not/Noetig',
      > we say 'es tut Not' meaning 'it is necessary'.
      > Gothic 'thaurfts' is probably related to mod. German 'Be -
      > darf/Duerftig', which also indicates that something is necessary.
      > > Gothic 'skulds' is is probably related to mod. German 'Schuld'.

      > Just guessing around ...
      > Cheers
      > Dirk

      Right on all counts, I think. Also, Skuld, the name of a norn...

      Llama Nom
    • cheyenne nicole
      llama_nom wrote: Here are some Gothic links which I ve found helpful and interesting, including some Francisc mentioned. I m surprised
      Message 2 of 15 , May 16, 2004
        llama_nom <penterakt@...> wrote:
        Here are some Gothic links which I've found helpful and interesting,
        including some Francisc mentioned. I'm surprised we don't have a
        selection of such links in the LINKS section of gothic-l. I'm not
        quite sure how to add them though... Some other excellent addresses
        not included here can be found at: http://www.reimar.de/gotisch.html


        The Wulfila Project: online searchable Gothic corpus + online edition
        of Streitberg's "Gotisches Elementarbuch" (minus the section on
        Syntax, for copyright reasons...)

        The Skeireins Project: some of the smaller fragments of Gothic which
        have survived, including the Skeireins + multiple translations:

        Titus Project: huge collection of Indo-European texts, including the
        Gothic corpus (click on "text database" in the right window)

        DICTIONARIES, etc.

        Gerhard Koebler (Gothic and other dictionaries, including Old Norse,
        Old Saxon, Old English, Old High German, Old Frisian, etc.)

        Sean Christ's Indo-European Language Resources: a wealth of material
        including Heyne's dictionary (Gothic-German), Balg's 'Comparative
        Glossary of the Gothic Language', Wright's 'Grammar of the Gothic
        Language' & Braune's 'Gotische Grammatik' + grammars and dictionaries
        for Old Icelandic, Old English, and many more...

        Gothic-German glossary (from Lehrbuch der Gotischen Sprache, Johannes
        Friedrich) http://craven.hypermart.net/Gothic.txt

        Gothic Names (Tim O'Neill: list of name elements, meanings and Old
        English equivalents)

        Crimean Gothic Wordlist

        My own still highly imperfect and constantly under revision English-
        Gothic dictionary--use at your peril...


        The Gotish Tongue Website (Matthew Carver: poems, riddles,
        Tolkien's "Bagme Bloma") http://www.stormloader.com/carver/gutrazda

        The Gothic Heathen Homepage (Albareiks: history, religion, modern
        poems in Gothic) http://www.angelfire.com/goth/kuni/


        Database of the Gothic Language (Manuscripts, digitising the Codex
        Argenteus) http://www.cs.tut.fi/~dla/gothic.html

        Reimar's Gothic Links (in German)

        Gothic Book List

        Results for "Gothic" on MavicaNET Multilingual Search Catalog

        A gentle "introduction to Gothic" with graded lessons by David Salo:

        ...and in German, adapted by Jens Vorbrink:

        Hope there's something of use in amongst that lot...

        Llama Nom

        --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "Francisc Czobor"
        > As far as I know, te best Gothic dictionary available for free on
        > web is Koebler's "Gotisches Woertebuch" (Gothic -
        > German/English/Greek/Latin, with German-Gothic, English-Gothic,
        > Gothic and Greek-Gothic finder):
        > http://homepage.uibk.ac.at/homepage/c303/c30310/gotwbhin.html
        > Other, less elaborate Gothic dictionaries available freely on the
        > are:
        > Wright's Gothic Glossary (Gothic-English):
        > Eric Craven's Gothic-German Glossary:
        > http://craven.hypermart.net/Gothic.txt
        > (not accessible at this moment)
        > Kunhihuzd (Tim O'Neill's page on Gothic names):
        > http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Salon/2385/gothnames.html
        > Crimean Gothic - English Glossary:
        > http://www.geocities.com/erwan-ar-skoul/gothmod.htm
        > I hope this helps.
        > Best regards,
        > Francisc
        > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Debbie Williams
        > wrote:
        > > Does anyone know where to get a Gothic language dictionary? I
        > love to learn the language since I'm also trying to pick up
        > German & Norwegian. Much thanks to anyone who can help.
        > >
        > ]

        You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a blank email to .
        Yahoo! Groups Links

        Thank you for helping me,i don't get alot of help. This will help me alot.


        Do you Yahoo!?
        SBC Yahoo! - Internet access at a great low price.

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • llama_nom
        And just when I thought I understood this, here is an alternate view on SKULD. In this article, SKULD, in the phrase _skuldu ist_, is characterised as
        Message 3 of 15 , May 21, 2004
          And just when I thought I understood this, here is an alternate view
          on SKULD. In this article, SKULD, in the phrase _skuldu ist_, is
          characterised as belonging to a class of "predicate nouns with modal
          meaning" - "Indo-European Syntactic Rules & Gothic Morphology", by
          Vyacheslav V Ivanov, p. 11).


          I'm not sure how you'd distinguish between a neuter noun and a neuter
          adjective used in this way. Wright saw it as an adjective. Koebler
          has the adjective SKULDS, but lists instances under the headword of
          the verb SKULAN, of which SKULDS is the past participle. Though he
          does have a noun *skuld, it is treated as strictly hypothetical.

          Either way, an interesting article on Gothic & IE syntax.

          Llama Nom

          --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <penterakt@f...> wrote:
          > Hailai sijuth!
          > And another alternative: nauths ist, literally "there is a need",
          > works the same way as: thaurfts ist (with thaurfts here being the
          > noun). With each, the thing needed is genitive. As a verb,
          > = "need", while skulan = "must, shall", with implications of
          > obligation, but also used to make a compound future tense, where
          > simple present might not be specific enough. Hey is everyone else
          > doing what I'm doing and typing some Gothic phrase into Google to
          > bypass the "Wulfila Project down for repairs" screen?
          > Skuld- (apart from being the past tense of skulan) is used in two
          > ways, with different meanings: 1) as an adjective, agreeing with
          > nominative subject, and 2) impersonally as a neuter adjective +dat.
          > "PASSIVE" skulds ist +inf. "one must be"
          > "ACTIVE" skuld ist (+dat.) +inf. "one must" or "one is allowed to"
          > more literally "it is permissible [for one] to"
          > ni skuld ist (+dat.) +inf. "it is not permissible [for one] to"
          > "Passive" and "active" might be slightly confusing labels, in the
          > context, but the examples should make it clear. For the former,
          > L 9,44 skulds ist...atgiban "MUST BE handed over"; and for the
          > Mk 10,2 skuldu sijai mann qen afsatjan? "is a man ALLOWED TO
          > his wife?" and 1Cor 6,15 skuld auk ist thata riurjo gahamon
          > unriurein "for that which is perishable MUST clothe itself with the
          > imperishable".
          > (This works even in 2 Cor 5,10, if you remember that
          ataugjan 'show'
          > has, when used passively, the special sense of "appear" as well
          > as "show oneself"--allai weis ataugjan skuldai sijum "we must all
          > appear".)
          > So with our hypothetical example: skulum galeithan "we should
          > but: skuld ist unsis galeithan "we are allowed to leave", or to
          > reverse it: skuldai sijum bileithan "we must be left", and in the
          > past: skuldai wesum bileithan [fram im] "we should have been left
          > them]". Or to deny it: ni skuld ist unsis galeithan "we aren't
          > allowed to go", or if optional, ni thaurbum galeithan "we don't
          > to go". To query: skuldu ist unsis galeithan? "are we allowed to
          > go?"; niu skuld ist? "aren't we allowed?"; skulumu galeithan "do we
          > have to go?"; or: ibai skulum galeithan "do we really have to go?"
          > Or if we just don't give a damn: ni waiht wulthrais ist unsis
          > galeithaima thau ni galeithaima "it's of no importance to us
          > we go or not!"
          > Llama Nom
          > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "ashley overs"
          > <ashlovers_12344@h...> wrote:
          > > thanks it realy helps me.
          > >
          > >
          > > >From: matthew carver <me@m...>
          > > >Reply-To: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com
          > > >To: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com
          > > >Subject: Re: [gothic-l] Re: Gothic equivalent for English 'must'
          > > >Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 11:30:17 -0700
          > > >
          > > >hails!
          > > >
          > > >also there i believe is the possibility of
          > > >the construction "skulds ist (+DAT)"
          > > >meaning it is owing, lawful. Thaurfts
          > > >from tharf- has the meaning of necessity,
          > > >obligation. I thought these were impersonal
          > > >constructions requiring a dative. Where
          > > >does the phrase with thaurfts occur in the
          > > >gothic bible as a modal or auxiliary verb?
          > > >
          > > >-matthew
          > > >
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