Re: Gothic equivalent for English 'must'
- --- In email@example.com, "faltin2001" <dirk@s...> wrote:
> I guess Gothic 'nauths' is related to mod. German 'Not/Noetig',
> we say 'es tut Not' meaning 'it is necessary'.Right on all counts, I think. Also, Skuld, the name of a norn...
> Gothic 'thaurfts' is probably related to mod. German 'Be -
> darf/Duerftig', which also indicates that something is necessary.
> > Gothic 'skulds' is is probably related to mod. German 'Schuld'.
> Just guessing around ...
- llama_nom <penterakt@...> wrote:
Here are some Gothic links which I've found helpful and interesting,
including some Francisc mentioned. I'm surprised we don't have a
selection of such links in the LINKS section of gothic-l. I'm not
quite sure how to add them though... Some other excellent addresses
not included here can be found at: http://www.reimar.de/gotisch.html
The Wulfila Project: online searchable Gothic corpus + online edition
of Streitberg's "Gotisches Elementarbuch" (minus the section on
Syntax, for copyright reasons...)
The Skeireins Project: some of the smaller fragments of Gothic which
have survived, including the Skeireins + multiple translations:
Titus Project: huge collection of Indo-European texts, including the
Gothic corpus (click on "text database" in the right window)
Gerhard Koebler (Gothic and other dictionaries, including Old Norse,
Old Saxon, Old English, Old High German, Old Frisian, etc.)
Sean Christ's Indo-European Language Resources: a wealth of material
including Heyne's dictionary (Gothic-German), Balg's 'Comparative
Glossary of the Gothic Language', Wright's 'Grammar of the Gothic
Language' & Braune's 'Gotische Grammatik' + grammars and dictionaries
for Old Icelandic, Old English, and many more...
Gothic-German glossary (from Lehrbuch der Gotischen Sprache, Johannes
Gothic Names (Tim O'Neill: list of name elements, meanings and Old
Crimean Gothic Wordlist
My own still highly imperfect and constantly under revision English-
Gothic dictionary--use at your peril...
MODERN WRITING IN GOTHIC
The Gotish Tongue Website (Matthew Carver: poems, riddles,
Tolkien's "Bagme Bloma") http://www.stormloader.com/carver/gutrazda
The Gothic Heathen Homepage (Albareiks: history, religion, modern
poems in Gothic) http://www.angelfire.com/goth/kuni/
Database of the Gothic Language (Manuscripts, digitising the Codex
Reimar's Gothic Links (in German)
Gothic Book List
Results for "Gothic" on MavicaNET Multilingual Search Catalog
A gentle "introduction to Gothic" with graded lessons by David Salo:
...and in German, adapted by Jens Vorbrink:
Hope there's something of use in amongst that lot...
--- In firstname.lastname@example.org, "Francisc Czobor"
> As far as I know, te best Gothic dictionary available for free onthe
> web is Koebler's "Gotisches Woertebuch" (Gothic -Latin-
> German/English/Greek/Latin, with German-Gothic, English-Gothic,
> Gothic and Greek-Gothic finder):web
> Other, less elaborate Gothic dictionaries available freely on the
> Wright's Gothic Glossary (Gothic-English):
> Eric Craven's Gothic-German Glossary:would
> (not accessible at this moment)
> Kunhihuzd (Tim O'Neill's page on Gothic names):
> Crimean Gothic - English Glossary:
> I hope this helps.
> Best regards,
> --- In email@example.com, Debbie Williams
> > Does anyone know where to get a Gothic language dictionary? I
> love to learn the language since I'm also trying to pick uplearning
> German & Norwegian. Much thanks to anyone who can help.You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a blank email to .
Yahoo! Groups Links
Thank you for helping me,i don't get alot of help. This will help me alot.
Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! - Internet access at a great low price.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
- And just when I thought I understood this, here is an alternate view
on SKULD. In this article, SKULD, in the phrase _skuldu ist_, is
characterised as belonging to a class of "predicate nouns with modal
meaning" - "Indo-European Syntactic Rules & Gothic Morphology", by
Vyacheslav V Ivanov, p. 11).
I'm not sure how you'd distinguish between a neuter noun and a neuter
adjective used in this way. Wright saw it as an adjective. Koebler
has the adjective SKULDS, but lists instances under the headword of
the verb SKULAN, of which SKULDS is the past participle. Though he
does have a noun *skuld, it is treated as strictly hypothetical.
Either way, an interesting article on Gothic & IE syntax.
--- In firstname.lastname@example.org, "llama_nom" <penterakt@f...> wrote:
> Hailai sijuth!
> And another alternative: nauths ist, literally "there is a need",
> works the same way as: thaurfts ist (with thaurfts here being the
> noun). With each, the thing needed is genitive. As a verb,
> = "need", while skulan = "must, shall", with implications of
> obligation, but also used to make a compound future tense, where
> simple present might not be specific enough. Hey is everyone else
> doing what I'm doing and typing some Gothic phrase into Google to
> bypass the "Wulfila Project down for repairs" screen?
> Skuld- (apart from being the past tense of skulan) is used in two
> ways, with different meanings: 1) as an adjective, agreeing with
> nominative subject, and 2) impersonally as a neuter adjective +dat.
> "PASSIVE" skulds ist +inf. "one must be"
> "ACTIVE" skuld ist (+dat.) +inf. "one must" or "one is allowed to"
> more literally "it is permissible [for one] to"
> ni skuld ist (+dat.) +inf. "it is not permissible [for one] to"
> "Passive" and "active" might be slightly confusing labels, in the
> context, but the examples should make it clear. For the former,
> L 9,44 skulds ist...atgiban "MUST BE handed over"; and for the
> Mk 10,2 skuldu sijai mann qen afsatjan? "is a man ALLOWED TO
> his wife?" and 1Cor 6,15 skuld auk ist thata riurjo gahamon
> unriurein "for that which is perishable MUST clothe itself with the
> (This works even in 2 Cor 5,10, if you remember that
> has, when used passively, the special sense of "appear" as well
> as "show oneself"--allai weis ataugjan skuldai sijum "we must all
> So with our hypothetical example: skulum galeithan "we should
> but: skuld ist unsis galeithan "we are allowed to leave", or to
> reverse it: skuldai sijum bileithan "we must be left", and in the
> past: skuldai wesum bileithan [fram im] "we should have been left
> them]". Or to deny it: ni skuld ist unsis galeithan "we aren't
> allowed to go", or if optional, ni thaurbum galeithan "we don't
> to go". To query: skuldu ist unsis galeithan? "are we allowed to
> go?"; niu skuld ist? "aren't we allowed?"; skulumu galeithan "do we
> have to go?"; or: ibai skulum galeithan "do we really have to go?"
> Or if we just don't give a damn: ni waiht wulthrais ist unsis
> galeithaima thau ni galeithaima "it's of no importance to us
> we go or not!"
> Llama Nom
> --- In email@example.com, "ashley overs"
> <ashlovers_12344@h...> wrote:
> > thanks it realy helps me.
> > >From: matthew carver <me@m...>
> > >Reply-To: firstname.lastname@example.org
> > >To: email@example.com
> > >Subject: Re: [gothic-l] Re: Gothic equivalent for English 'must'
> > >Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 11:30:17 -0700
> > >
> > >hails!
> > >
> > >also there i believe is the possibility of
> > >the construction "skulds ist (+DAT)"
> > >meaning it is owing, lawful. Thaurfts
> > >from tharf- has the meaning of necessity,
> > >obligation. I thought these were impersonal
> > >constructions requiring a dative. Where
> > >does the phrase with thaurfts occur in the
> > >gothic bible as a modal or auxiliary verb?
> > >
> > >-matthew
> > >