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Re: Gothic equivalent for English 'must'

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  • faltin2001
    ... I guess Gothic nauths is related to mod. German Not/Noetig , when we say es tut Not meaning it is necessary . ... Gothic thaurfts is probably
    Message 1 of 15 , May 13 6:37 AM
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      --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <penterakt@f...> wrote:
      >
      > Hailai sijuth!
      >
      > And another alternative: nauths ist, literally "there is a need",



      I guess Gothic 'nauths' is related to mod. German 'Not/Noetig', when
      we say 'es tut Not' meaning 'it is necessary'.








      > works the same way as: thaurfts ist (with thaurfts here being the
      > noun).



      Gothic 'thaurfts' is probably related to mod. German 'Be -
      darf/Duerftig', which also indicates that something is necessary.



      > Skuld- (apart from being the past tense of skulan) is used in two
      > ways, with different meanings: 1) as an adjective, agreeing with
      the
      > nominative subject, and 2) impersonally as a neuter adjective +dat.
      >
      > "PASSIVE" skulds ist +inf. "one must be"
      > "ACTIVE" skuld ist (+dat.) +inf. "one must" or "one is allowed to"
      or
      > more literally "it is permissible [for one] to"
      > ni skuld ist (+dat.) +inf. "it is not permissible [for one] to"




      Gothic 'skulds' is is probably related to mod. German 'Schuld'.


      Just guessing around ...

      Cheers
      Dirk
    • llama_nom
      ... when ... Right on all counts, I think. Also, Skuld, the name of a norn... Llama Nom
      Message 2 of 15 , May 14 9:53 AM
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        --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "faltin2001" <dirk@s...> wrote:

        >
        > I guess Gothic 'nauths' is related to mod. German 'Not/Noetig',
        when
        > we say 'es tut Not' meaning 'it is necessary'.
        >
        > Gothic 'thaurfts' is probably related to mod. German 'Be -
        > darf/Duerftig', which also indicates that something is necessary.
        >
        > > Gothic 'skulds' is is probably related to mod. German 'Schuld'.

        > Just guessing around ...
        >
        > Cheers
        > Dirk

        Right on all counts, I think. Also, Skuld, the name of a norn...

        Llama Nom
      • cheyenne nicole
        llama_nom wrote: Here are some Gothic links which I ve found helpful and interesting, including some Francisc mentioned. I m surprised
        Message 3 of 15 , May 16 10:23 AM
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          llama_nom <penterakt@...> wrote:
          Here are some Gothic links which I've found helpful and interesting,
          including some Francisc mentioned. I'm surprised we don't have a
          selection of such links in the LINKS section of gothic-l. I'm not
          quite sure how to add them though... Some other excellent addresses
          not included here can be found at: http://www.reimar.de/gotisch.html

          TEXTS

          The Wulfila Project: online searchable Gothic corpus + online edition
          of Streitberg's "Gotisches Elementarbuch" (minus the section on
          Syntax, for copyright reasons...)
          http://www.wulfila.be

          The Skeireins Project: some of the smaller fragments of Gothic which
          have survived, including the Skeireins + multiple translations:
          http://germa.germsem.uni-kiel.de/gotisch/gotisch.html

          Titus Project: huge collection of Indo-European texts, including the
          Gothic corpus (click on "text database" in the right window)
          http://titus.uni-frankfurt.de/indexe.htm


          DICTIONARIES, etc.

          Gerhard Koebler (Gothic and other dictionaries, including Old Norse,
          Old Saxon, Old English, Old High German, Old Frisian, etc.)
          http://www.koeblergerhard.de/publikat.html

          Sean Christ's Indo-European Language Resources: a wealth of material
          including Heyne's dictionary (Gothic-German), Balg's 'Comparative
          Glossary of the Gothic Language', Wright's 'Grammar of the Gothic
          Language' & Braune's 'Gotische Grammatik' + grammars and dictionaries
          for Old Icelandic, Old English, and many more...
          http://www.ling.upenn.edu/~kurisuto/germanic/language_resources.html

          Gothic-German glossary (from Lehrbuch der Gotischen Sprache, Johannes
          Friedrich) http://craven.hypermart.net/Gothic.txt

          Gothic Names (Tim O'Neill: list of name elements, meanings and Old
          English equivalents)
          http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Salon/2385/gothnames.html

          Crimean Gothic Wordlist
          http://www.geocities.com/erwan-ar-skoul/gothmod.htm

          My own still highly imperfect and constantly under revision English-
          Gothic dictionary--use at your peril...
          http://freespace.virgin.net/o.e/egd/egdhome.html


          MODERN WRITING IN GOTHIC

          The Gotish Tongue Website (Matthew Carver: poems, riddles,
          Tolkien's "Bagme Bloma") http://www.stormloader.com/carver/gutrazda

          The Gothic Heathen Homepage (Albareiks: history, religion, modern
          poems in Gothic) http://www.angelfire.com/goth/kuni/


          MISCELLANEOUS

          Database of the Gothic Language (Manuscripts, digitising the Codex
          Argenteus) http://www.cs.tut.fi/~dla/gothic.html

          Reimar's Gothic Links (in German)
          http://www.reimar.de/gotisch.html

          Gothic Book List
          http://www.the-orb-net/wemsk/gothicwemsk.html

          Results for "Gothic" on MavicaNET Multilingual Search Catalog
          http://www.mavicanet.com/directory/eng/1350.html?iss=0

          A gentle "introduction to Gothic" with graded lessons by David Salo:
          http://members.terracom.net/~dorothea/david/gothic/

          ...and in German, adapted by Jens Vorbrink:
          http://www.gotisch.de/


          Hope there's something of use in amongst that lot...

          Llama Nom



          --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "Francisc Czobor"
          wrote:
          > As far as I know, te best Gothic dictionary available for free on
          the
          > web is Koebler's "Gotisches Woertebuch" (Gothic -
          > German/English/Greek/Latin, with German-Gothic, English-Gothic,
          Latin-
          > Gothic and Greek-Gothic finder):
          > http://homepage.uibk.ac.at/homepage/c303/c30310/gotwbhin.html
          > Other, less elaborate Gothic dictionaries available freely on the
          web
          > are:
          > Wright's Gothic Glossary (Gothic-English):
          >
          http://www.ling.upenn.edu/~kurisuto/germanic/goth_wright_glossary.html
          > Eric Craven's Gothic-German Glossary:
          > http://craven.hypermart.net/Gothic.txt
          > (not accessible at this moment)
          > Kunhihuzd (Tim O'Neill's page on Gothic names):
          > http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Salon/2385/gothnames.html
          > Crimean Gothic - English Glossary:
          > http://www.geocities.com/erwan-ar-skoul/gothmod.htm
          > I hope this helps.
          > Best regards,
          > Francisc
          >
          >
          > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Debbie Williams
          > wrote:
          > > Does anyone know where to get a Gothic language dictionary? I
          would
          > love to learn the language since I'm also trying to pick up
          learning
          > German & Norwegian. Much thanks to anyone who can help.
          > >
          > ]




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          Thank you for helping me,i don't get alot of help. This will help me alot.



          Cheyenne

          ---------------------------------
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          SBC Yahoo! - Internet access at a great low price.

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • llama_nom
          And just when I thought I understood this, here is an alternate view on SKULD. In this article, SKULD, in the phrase _skuldu ist_, is characterised as
          Message 4 of 15 , May 21 7:48 AM
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            And just when I thought I understood this, here is an alternate view
            on SKULD. In this article, SKULD, in the phrase _skuldu ist_, is
            characterised as belonging to a class of "predicate nouns with modal
            meaning" - "Indo-European Syntactic Rules & Gothic Morphology", by
            Vyacheslav V Ivanov, p. 11).

            http://www.humnet.ucla.edu/pies/pdfs/IESV/1/VVI_Gothic_syntax.pdf

            I'm not sure how you'd distinguish between a neuter noun and a neuter
            adjective used in this way. Wright saw it as an adjective. Koebler
            has the adjective SKULDS, but lists instances under the headword of
            the verb SKULAN, of which SKULDS is the past participle. Though he
            does have a noun *skuld, it is treated as strictly hypothetical.

            Either way, an interesting article on Gothic & IE syntax.

            Llama Nom



            --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <penterakt@f...> wrote:
            >
            > Hailai sijuth!
            >
            > And another alternative: nauths ist, literally "there is a need",
            > works the same way as: thaurfts ist (with thaurfts here being the
            > noun). With each, the thing needed is genitive. As a verb,
            thaurban
            > = "need", while skulan = "must, shall", with implications of
            > obligation, but also used to make a compound future tense, where
            the
            > simple present might not be specific enough. Hey is everyone else
            > doing what I'm doing and typing some Gothic phrase into Google to
            > bypass the "Wulfila Project down for repairs" screen?
            >
            > Skuld- (apart from being the past tense of skulan) is used in two
            > ways, with different meanings: 1) as an adjective, agreeing with
            the
            > nominative subject, and 2) impersonally as a neuter adjective +dat.
            >
            > "PASSIVE" skulds ist +inf. "one must be"
            > "ACTIVE" skuld ist (+dat.) +inf. "one must" or "one is allowed to"
            or
            > more literally "it is permissible [for one] to"
            > ni skuld ist (+dat.) +inf. "it is not permissible [for one] to"
            >
            > "Passive" and "active" might be slightly confusing labels, in the
            > context, but the examples should make it clear. For the former,
            see
            > L 9,44 skulds ist...atgiban "MUST BE handed over"; and for the
            latter
            > Mk 10,2 skuldu sijai mann qen afsatjan? "is a man ALLOWED TO
            divorce
            > his wife?" and 1Cor 6,15 skuld auk ist thata riurjo gahamon
            > unriurein "for that which is perishable MUST clothe itself with the
            > imperishable".
            >
            > (This works even in 2 Cor 5,10, if you remember that
            ataugjan 'show'
            > has, when used passively, the special sense of "appear" as well
            > as "show oneself"--allai weis ataugjan skuldai sijum "we must all
            > appear".)
            >
            > So with our hypothetical example: skulum galeithan "we should
            leave",
            > but: skuld ist unsis galeithan "we are allowed to leave", or to
            > reverse it: skuldai sijum bileithan "we must be left", and in the
            > past: skuldai wesum bileithan [fram im] "we should have been left
            [by
            > them]". Or to deny it: ni skuld ist unsis galeithan "we aren't
            > allowed to go", or if optional, ni thaurbum galeithan "we don't
            need
            > to go". To query: skuldu ist unsis galeithan? "are we allowed to
            > go?"; niu skuld ist? "aren't we allowed?"; skulumu galeithan "do we
            > have to go?"; or: ibai skulum galeithan "do we really have to go?"
            > Or if we just don't give a damn: ni waiht wulthrais ist unsis
            hwathar
            > galeithaima thau ni galeithaima "it's of no importance to us
            whether
            > we go or not!"
            >
            > Llama Nom
            >
            >
            >
            > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "ashley overs"
            > <ashlovers_12344@h...> wrote:
            > > thanks it realy helps me.
            > >
            > >
            > > >From: matthew carver <me@m...>
            > > >Reply-To: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com
            > > >To: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com
            > > >Subject: Re: [gothic-l] Re: Gothic equivalent for English 'must'
            > > >Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 11:30:17 -0700
            > > >
            > > >hails!
            > > >
            > > >also there i believe is the possibility of
            > > >the construction "skulds ist (+DAT)"
            > > >meaning it is owing, lawful. Thaurfts
            > > >from tharf- has the meaning of necessity,
            > > >obligation. I thought these were impersonal
            > > >constructions requiring a dative. Where
            > > >does the phrase with thaurfts occur in the
            > > >gothic bible as a modal or auxiliary verb?
            > > >
            > > >-matthew
            > > >
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