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Re: [gothic-l] Re: Gothic equivalent for English 'must'

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  • Debbie Williams
    Does anyone know where to get a Gothic language dictionary? I would love to learn the language since I m also trying to pick up learning German & Norwegian.
    Message 1 of 15 , May 11, 2004
      Does anyone know where to get a Gothic language dictionary? I would love to learn the language since I'm also trying to pick up learning German & Norwegian. Much thanks to anyone who can help.

      llama_nom <penterakt@...> wrote:
      >
      > > How would one say that one 'must' do something in Gothic?
      >
      > I think _skulan_ is a good equivalent of _must_.
      >
      > > Eg how would one translate, 'We must go now'.
      >
      > Skulum nu gaggan.
      >
      > > Nearest I could work out was 'Thaurfts nu faran ist',
      > > literally 'Necessary now to-go it-is.'
      >
      > Not exactly. Thaurfts ist (you'll note that -s is the masculine
      > ending) means that somebody is meant to, in need to do someting: sa
      > thaurfts ist gaggan = he is in need to go. You have to use the
      neuter
      > thaurft in order to convey impersonal meaning.
      >
      > Hope this helps
      >
      > Iosef Strawarila


      As you say, this is the simplest way:

      skulum nu gaggan - we should/must go/walk, let us go/walk

      Other possibilities:

      galeithan - go, depart
      usleithan - go out, depart, disappear
      afleithan - go, depart, leave (transitive or intransitive)
      afleithan aljath - go elsewhere, "be off"
      andqithan - say goodbye, take one's leave of, greet
      atgaggan - go/come (in a particular direction), approach, come down
      faran - go (attested just once in Gothic, L 10,7 in phrase "go from
      house to house")
      farjan - go by boat
      etc.

      And yes, "thaurft ist gaggan" seems reasonable for "it is necessary
      to go". The phrase isn't attested, as far as I know, but for the
      same construction with the synonymous "naudithaufts" see 2Cor 9,5:
      naudithaurft nu man bidjan brothruns ei galeithaina du izwis - I
      thought it necessary to ask the brothers to go to you.

      The adjective "thaurfts" appears at 1Cor 12,22 (masc.pl. thaurftai),
      meaning "necessary": thaurftai sind - they are necessary.

      In its weak masculine form it occurs at Mk 2,25 with a somewhat
      different meaning: thaurfta "needy", "in need".

      But "thaurfts" can also be a feminine i-stem noun, e.g. L 19,34:
      fraujin thaurfts this ist "the master needs it", lit. "there is a
      necessity to the master of it" (it being a colt/foal).

      So too can naudithaurfts, cf. chapter 2 of the Skeireins:
      naudithaurfts auk was jah gadob wistai du garehsn daupeinais
      andniman "For it was a necessity and in keeping with nature to
      receive the plan of baptism" (Marchand translation).

      So returning to the original question, I think "thaurfts nu faran
      ist" is quite acceptable Gothic too, but perhaps meaning "there is a
      need to travel" or "to go about", rather than "go" in the sense
      of "depart", though it's impossible to be definitive from just one
      attested example.

      To say "he needs to go", then might be: "thaurft(s) ist imma gaggan",
      or something like that, the -s being optional (depending on whether
      you treat it as a feminine noun or a neuter adjective). To say "we
      have to go", with this construction, just swap "imma" for "uns"
      or "unsis".

      That's my guess.

      Llama Nom



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    • Francisc Czobor
      As far as I know, te best Gothic dictionary available for free on the web is Koebler s Gotisches Woertebuch (Gothic - German/English/Greek/Latin, with
      Message 2 of 15 , May 13, 2004
        As far as I know, te best Gothic dictionary available for free on the
        web is Koebler's "Gotisches Woertebuch" (Gothic -
        German/English/Greek/Latin, with German-Gothic, English-Gothic, Latin-
        Gothic and Greek-Gothic finder):
        http://homepage.uibk.ac.at/homepage/c303/c30310/gotwbhin.html
        Other, less elaborate Gothic dictionaries available freely on the web
        are:
        Wright's Gothic Glossary (Gothic-English):
        http://www.ling.upenn.edu/~kurisuto/germanic/goth_wright_glossary.html
        Eric Craven's Gothic-German Glossary:
        http://craven.hypermart.net/Gothic.txt
        (not accessible at this moment)
        Kunhihuzd (Tim O'Neill's page on Gothic names):
        http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Salon/2385/gothnames.html
        Crimean Gothic - English Glossary:
        http://www.geocities.com/erwan-ar-skoul/gothmod.htm
        I hope this helps.
        Best regards,
        Francisc


        --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Debbie Williams
        <corbeau_13_2000@y...> wrote:
        > Does anyone know where to get a Gothic language dictionary? I would
        love to learn the language since I'm also trying to pick up learning
        German & Norwegian. Much thanks to anyone who can help.
        >
        ]
      • llama_nom
        Hailai sijuth! And another alternative: nauths ist, literally there is a need , works the same way as: thaurfts ist (with thaurfts here being the noun). With
        Message 3 of 15 , May 13, 2004
          Hailai sijuth!

          And another alternative: nauths ist, literally "there is a need",
          works the same way as: thaurfts ist (with thaurfts here being the
          noun). With each, the thing needed is genitive. As a verb, thaurban
          = "need", while skulan = "must, shall", with implications of
          obligation, but also used to make a compound future tense, where the
          simple present might not be specific enough. Hey is everyone else
          doing what I'm doing and typing some Gothic phrase into Google to
          bypass the "Wulfila Project down for repairs" screen?

          Skuld- (apart from being the past tense of skulan) is used in two
          ways, with different meanings: 1) as an adjective, agreeing with the
          nominative subject, and 2) impersonally as a neuter adjective +dat.

          "PASSIVE" skulds ist +inf. "one must be"
          "ACTIVE" skuld ist (+dat.) +inf. "one must" or "one is allowed to" or
          more literally "it is permissible [for one] to"
          ni skuld ist (+dat.) +inf. "it is not permissible [for one] to"

          "Passive" and "active" might be slightly confusing labels, in the
          context, but the examples should make it clear. For the former, see
          L 9,44 skulds ist...atgiban "MUST BE handed over"; and for the latter
          Mk 10,2 skuldu sijai mann qen afsatjan? "is a man ALLOWED TO divorce
          his wife?" and 1Cor 6,15 skuld auk ist thata riurjo gahamon
          unriurein "for that which is perishable MUST clothe itself with the
          imperishable".

          (This works even in 2 Cor 5,10, if you remember that ataugjan 'show'
          has, when used passively, the special sense of "appear" as well
          as "show oneself"--allai weis ataugjan skuldai sijum "we must all
          appear".)

          So with our hypothetical example: skulum galeithan "we should leave",
          but: skuld ist unsis galeithan "we are allowed to leave", or to
          reverse it: skuldai sijum bileithan "we must be left", and in the
          past: skuldai wesum bileithan [fram im] "we should have been left [by
          them]". Or to deny it: ni skuld ist unsis galeithan "we aren't
          allowed to go", or if optional, ni thaurbum galeithan "we don't need
          to go". To query: skuldu ist unsis galeithan? "are we allowed to
          go?"; niu skuld ist? "aren't we allowed?"; skulumu galeithan "do we
          have to go?"; or: ibai skulum galeithan "do we really have to go?"
          Or if we just don't give a damn: ni waiht wulthrais ist unsis hwathar
          galeithaima thau ni galeithaima "it's of no importance to us whether
          we go or not!"

          Llama Nom



          --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "ashley overs"
          <ashlovers_12344@h...> wrote:
          > thanks it realy helps me.
          >
          >
          > >From: matthew carver <me@m...>
          > >Reply-To: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com
          > >To: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com
          > >Subject: Re: [gothic-l] Re: Gothic equivalent for English 'must'
          > >Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 11:30:17 -0700
          > >
          > >hails!
          > >
          > >also there i believe is the possibility of
          > >the construction "skulds ist (+DAT)"
          > >meaning it is owing, lawful. Thaurfts
          > >from tharf- has the meaning of necessity,
          > >obligation. I thought these were impersonal
          > >constructions requiring a dative. Where
          > >does the phrase with thaurfts occur in the
          > >gothic bible as a modal or auxiliary verb?
          > >
          > >-matthew
          > >
          > >On mandag, maj 10, 2004, at 09:11 , llama_nom wrote:
          > >
          > > >
          > > >>
          > > >>> How would one say that one 'must' do something in Gothic?
          > > >>
          > > >> I think _skulan_ is a good equivalent of _must_.
          > > >>
          > > >>> Eg how would one translate, 'We must go now'.
          > > >>
          > > >> Skulum nu gaggan.
          > > >>
          > > >>> Nearest I could work out was 'Thaurfts nu faran ist',
          > > >>> literally 'Necessary now to-go it-is.'
          > > >>
          > > >> Not exactly. Thaurfts ist (you'll note that -s is the masculine
          > > >> ending) means that somebody is meant to, in need to do
          someting: sa
          > > >> thaurfts ist gaggan = he is in need to go. You have to use the
          > > > neuter
          > > >> thaurft in order to convey impersonal meaning.
          > > >>
          > > >> Hope this helps
          > > >>
          > > >> Iosef Strawarila
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > As you say, this is the simplest way:
          > > >
          > > > skulum nu gaggan - we should/must go/walk, let us go/walk
          > > >
          > > > Other possibilities:
          > > >
          > > > galeithan - go, depart
          > > > usleithan - go out, depart, disappear
          > > > afleithan - go, depart, leave (transitive or intransitive)
          > > > afleithan aljath - go elsewhere, "be off"
          > > > andqithan - say goodbye, take one's leave of, greet
          > > > atgaggan - go/come (in a particular direction), approach, come
          down
          > > > faran - go (attested just once in Gothic, L 10,7 in phrase "go
          from
          > > > house to house")
          > > > farjan - go by boat
          > > > etc.
          > > >
          > > > And yes, "thaurft ist gaggan" seems reasonable for "it is
          necessary
          > > > to go". The phrase isn't attested, as far as I know, but for
          the
          > > > same construction with the synonymous "naudithaufts" see 2Cor
          9,5:
          > > > naudithaurft nu man bidjan brothruns ei galeithaina du izwis - I
          > > > thought it necessary to ask the brothers to go to you.
          > > >
          > > > The adjective "thaurfts" appears at 1Cor 12,22 (masc.pl.
          thaurftai),
          > > > meaning "necessary": thaurftai sind - they are necessary.
          > > >
          > > > In its weak masculine form it occurs at Mk 2,25 with a somewhat
          > > > different meaning: thaurfta "needy", "in need".
          > > >
          > > > But "thaurfts" can also be a feminine i-stem noun, e.g. L 19,34:
          > > > fraujin thaurfts this ist "the master needs it", lit. "there is
          a
          > > > necessity to the master of it" (it being a colt/foal).
          > > >
          > > > So too can naudithaurfts, cf. chapter 2 of the Skeireins:
          > > > naudithaurfts auk was jah gadob wistai du garehsn daupeinais
          > > > andniman "For it was a necessity and in keeping with nature to
          > > > receive the plan of baptism" (Marchand translation).
          > > >
          > > > So returning to the original question, I think "thaurfts nu
          faran
          > > > ist" is quite acceptable Gothic too, but perhaps meaning "there
          is a
          > > > need to travel" or "to go about", rather than "go" in the sense
          > > > of "depart", though it's impossible to be definitive from just
          one
          > > > attested example.
          > > >
          > > > To say "he needs to go", then might be: "thaurft(s) ist imma
          gaggan",
          > > > or something like that, the -s being optional (depending on
          whether
          > > > you treat it as a feminine noun or a neuter adjective). To
          say "we
          > > > have to go", with this construction, just swap "imma" for "uns"
          > > > or "unsis".
          > > >
          > > > That's my guess.
          > > >
          > > > Llama Nom
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a
          > > > blank email to <gothic-l-unsubscribe@egroups.com>.
          > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > >
          >
          > _________________________________________________________________
          > MSN Premium includes powerful parental controls and get 2 months
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        • llama_nom
          Here are some Gothic links which I ve found helpful and interesting, including some Francisc mentioned. I m surprised we don t have a selection of such links
          Message 4 of 15 , May 13, 2004
            Here are some Gothic links which I've found helpful and interesting,
            including some Francisc mentioned. I'm surprised we don't have a
            selection of such links in the LINKS section of gothic-l. I'm not
            quite sure how to add them though... Some other excellent addresses
            not included here can be found at: http://www.reimar.de/gotisch.html

            TEXTS

            The Wulfila Project: online searchable Gothic corpus + online edition
            of Streitberg's "Gotisches Elementarbuch" (minus the section on
            Syntax, for copyright reasons...)
            http://www.wulfila.be

            The Skeireins Project: some of the smaller fragments of Gothic which
            have survived, including the Skeireins + multiple translations:
            http://germa.germsem.uni-kiel.de/gotisch/gotisch.html

            Titus Project: huge collection of Indo-European texts, including the
            Gothic corpus (click on "text database" in the right window)
            http://titus.uni-frankfurt.de/indexe.htm


            DICTIONARIES, etc.

            Gerhard Koebler (Gothic and other dictionaries, including Old Norse,
            Old Saxon, Old English, Old High German, Old Frisian, etc.)
            http://www.koeblergerhard.de/publikat.html

            Sean Christ's Indo-European Language Resources: a wealth of material
            including Heyne's dictionary (Gothic-German), Balg's 'Comparative
            Glossary of the Gothic Language', Wright's 'Grammar of the Gothic
            Language' & Braune's 'Gotische Grammatik' + grammars and dictionaries
            for Old Icelandic, Old English, and many more...
            http://www.ling.upenn.edu/~kurisuto/germanic/language_resources.html

            Gothic-German glossary (from Lehrbuch der Gotischen Sprache, Johannes
            Friedrich) http://craven.hypermart.net/Gothic.txt

            Gothic Names (Tim O'Neill: list of name elements, meanings and Old
            English equivalents)
            http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Salon/2385/gothnames.html

            Crimean Gothic Wordlist
            http://www.geocities.com/erwan-ar-skoul/gothmod.htm

            My own still highly imperfect and constantly under revision English-
            Gothic dictionary--use at your peril...
            http://freespace.virgin.net/o.e/egd/egdhome.html


            MODERN WRITING IN GOTHIC

            The Gotish Tongue Website (Matthew Carver: poems, riddles,
            Tolkien's "Bagme Bloma") http://www.stormloader.com/carver/gutrazda

            The Gothic Heathen Homepage (Albareiks: history, religion, modern
            poems in Gothic) http://www.angelfire.com/goth/kuni/


            MISCELLANEOUS

            Database of the Gothic Language (Manuscripts, digitising the Codex
            Argenteus) http://www.cs.tut.fi/~dla/gothic.html

            Reimar's Gothic Links (in German)
            http://www.reimar.de/gotisch.html

            Gothic Book List
            http://www.the-orb-net/wemsk/gothicwemsk.html

            Results for "Gothic" on MavicaNET Multilingual Search Catalog
            http://www.mavicanet.com/directory/eng/1350.html?iss=0

            A gentle "introduction to Gothic" with graded lessons by David Salo:
            http://members.terracom.net/~dorothea/david/gothic/

            ...and in German, adapted by Jens Vorbrink:
            http://www.gotisch.de/


            Hope there's something of use in amongst that lot...

            Llama Nom



            --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "Francisc Czobor" <fericzobor@y...>
            wrote:
            > As far as I know, te best Gothic dictionary available for free on
            the
            > web is Koebler's "Gotisches Woertebuch" (Gothic -
            > German/English/Greek/Latin, with German-Gothic, English-Gothic,
            Latin-
            > Gothic and Greek-Gothic finder):
            > http://homepage.uibk.ac.at/homepage/c303/c30310/gotwbhin.html
            > Other, less elaborate Gothic dictionaries available freely on the
            web
            > are:
            > Wright's Gothic Glossary (Gothic-English):
            >
            http://www.ling.upenn.edu/~kurisuto/germanic/goth_wright_glossary.html
            > Eric Craven's Gothic-German Glossary:
            > http://craven.hypermart.net/Gothic.txt
            > (not accessible at this moment)
            > Kunhihuzd (Tim O'Neill's page on Gothic names):
            > http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Salon/2385/gothnames.html
            > Crimean Gothic - English Glossary:
            > http://www.geocities.com/erwan-ar-skoul/gothmod.htm
            > I hope this helps.
            > Best regards,
            > Francisc
            >
            >
            > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Debbie Williams
            > <corbeau_13_2000@y...> wrote:
            > > Does anyone know where to get a Gothic language dictionary? I
            would
            > love to learn the language since I'm also trying to pick up
            learning
            > German & Norwegian. Much thanks to anyone who can help.
            > >
            > ]
          • faltin2001
            ... I guess Gothic nauths is related to mod. German Not/Noetig , when we say es tut Not meaning it is necessary . ... Gothic thaurfts is probably
            Message 5 of 15 , May 13, 2004
              --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <penterakt@f...> wrote:
              >
              > Hailai sijuth!
              >
              > And another alternative: nauths ist, literally "there is a need",



              I guess Gothic 'nauths' is related to mod. German 'Not/Noetig', when
              we say 'es tut Not' meaning 'it is necessary'.








              > works the same way as: thaurfts ist (with thaurfts here being the
              > noun).



              Gothic 'thaurfts' is probably related to mod. German 'Be -
              darf/Duerftig', which also indicates that something is necessary.



              > Skuld- (apart from being the past tense of skulan) is used in two
              > ways, with different meanings: 1) as an adjective, agreeing with
              the
              > nominative subject, and 2) impersonally as a neuter adjective +dat.
              >
              > "PASSIVE" skulds ist +inf. "one must be"
              > "ACTIVE" skuld ist (+dat.) +inf. "one must" or "one is allowed to"
              or
              > more literally "it is permissible [for one] to"
              > ni skuld ist (+dat.) +inf. "it is not permissible [for one] to"




              Gothic 'skulds' is is probably related to mod. German 'Schuld'.


              Just guessing around ...

              Cheers
              Dirk
            • llama_nom
              ... when ... Right on all counts, I think. Also, Skuld, the name of a norn... Llama Nom
              Message 6 of 15 , May 14, 2004
                --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "faltin2001" <dirk@s...> wrote:

                >
                > I guess Gothic 'nauths' is related to mod. German 'Not/Noetig',
                when
                > we say 'es tut Not' meaning 'it is necessary'.
                >
                > Gothic 'thaurfts' is probably related to mod. German 'Be -
                > darf/Duerftig', which also indicates that something is necessary.
                >
                > > Gothic 'skulds' is is probably related to mod. German 'Schuld'.

                > Just guessing around ...
                >
                > Cheers
                > Dirk

                Right on all counts, I think. Also, Skuld, the name of a norn...

                Llama Nom
              • cheyenne nicole
                llama_nom wrote: Here are some Gothic links which I ve found helpful and interesting, including some Francisc mentioned. I m surprised
                Message 7 of 15 , May 16, 2004
                  llama_nom <penterakt@...> wrote:
                  Here are some Gothic links which I've found helpful and interesting,
                  including some Francisc mentioned. I'm surprised we don't have a
                  selection of such links in the LINKS section of gothic-l. I'm not
                  quite sure how to add them though... Some other excellent addresses
                  not included here can be found at: http://www.reimar.de/gotisch.html

                  TEXTS

                  The Wulfila Project: online searchable Gothic corpus + online edition
                  of Streitberg's "Gotisches Elementarbuch" (minus the section on
                  Syntax, for copyright reasons...)
                  http://www.wulfila.be

                  The Skeireins Project: some of the smaller fragments of Gothic which
                  have survived, including the Skeireins + multiple translations:
                  http://germa.germsem.uni-kiel.de/gotisch/gotisch.html

                  Titus Project: huge collection of Indo-European texts, including the
                  Gothic corpus (click on "text database" in the right window)
                  http://titus.uni-frankfurt.de/indexe.htm


                  DICTIONARIES, etc.

                  Gerhard Koebler (Gothic and other dictionaries, including Old Norse,
                  Old Saxon, Old English, Old High German, Old Frisian, etc.)
                  http://www.koeblergerhard.de/publikat.html

                  Sean Christ's Indo-European Language Resources: a wealth of material
                  including Heyne's dictionary (Gothic-German), Balg's 'Comparative
                  Glossary of the Gothic Language', Wright's 'Grammar of the Gothic
                  Language' & Braune's 'Gotische Grammatik' + grammars and dictionaries
                  for Old Icelandic, Old English, and many more...
                  http://www.ling.upenn.edu/~kurisuto/germanic/language_resources.html

                  Gothic-German glossary (from Lehrbuch der Gotischen Sprache, Johannes
                  Friedrich) http://craven.hypermart.net/Gothic.txt

                  Gothic Names (Tim O'Neill: list of name elements, meanings and Old
                  English equivalents)
                  http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Salon/2385/gothnames.html

                  Crimean Gothic Wordlist
                  http://www.geocities.com/erwan-ar-skoul/gothmod.htm

                  My own still highly imperfect and constantly under revision English-
                  Gothic dictionary--use at your peril...
                  http://freespace.virgin.net/o.e/egd/egdhome.html


                  MODERN WRITING IN GOTHIC

                  The Gotish Tongue Website (Matthew Carver: poems, riddles,
                  Tolkien's "Bagme Bloma") http://www.stormloader.com/carver/gutrazda

                  The Gothic Heathen Homepage (Albareiks: history, religion, modern
                  poems in Gothic) http://www.angelfire.com/goth/kuni/


                  MISCELLANEOUS

                  Database of the Gothic Language (Manuscripts, digitising the Codex
                  Argenteus) http://www.cs.tut.fi/~dla/gothic.html

                  Reimar's Gothic Links (in German)
                  http://www.reimar.de/gotisch.html

                  Gothic Book List
                  http://www.the-orb-net/wemsk/gothicwemsk.html

                  Results for "Gothic" on MavicaNET Multilingual Search Catalog
                  http://www.mavicanet.com/directory/eng/1350.html?iss=0

                  A gentle "introduction to Gothic" with graded lessons by David Salo:
                  http://members.terracom.net/~dorothea/david/gothic/

                  ...and in German, adapted by Jens Vorbrink:
                  http://www.gotisch.de/


                  Hope there's something of use in amongst that lot...

                  Llama Nom



                  --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "Francisc Czobor"
                  wrote:
                  > As far as I know, te best Gothic dictionary available for free on
                  the
                  > web is Koebler's "Gotisches Woertebuch" (Gothic -
                  > German/English/Greek/Latin, with German-Gothic, English-Gothic,
                  Latin-
                  > Gothic and Greek-Gothic finder):
                  > http://homepage.uibk.ac.at/homepage/c303/c30310/gotwbhin.html
                  > Other, less elaborate Gothic dictionaries available freely on the
                  web
                  > are:
                  > Wright's Gothic Glossary (Gothic-English):
                  >
                  http://www.ling.upenn.edu/~kurisuto/germanic/goth_wright_glossary.html
                  > Eric Craven's Gothic-German Glossary:
                  > http://craven.hypermart.net/Gothic.txt
                  > (not accessible at this moment)
                  > Kunhihuzd (Tim O'Neill's page on Gothic names):
                  > http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Salon/2385/gothnames.html
                  > Crimean Gothic - English Glossary:
                  > http://www.geocities.com/erwan-ar-skoul/gothmod.htm
                  > I hope this helps.
                  > Best regards,
                  > Francisc
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Debbie Williams
                  > wrote:
                  > > Does anyone know where to get a Gothic language dictionary? I
                  would
                  > love to learn the language since I'm also trying to pick up
                  learning
                  > German & Norwegian. Much thanks to anyone who can help.
                  > >
                  > ]




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                  Thank you for helping me,i don't get alot of help. This will help me alot.



                  Cheyenne

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                • llama_nom
                  And just when I thought I understood this, here is an alternate view on SKULD. In this article, SKULD, in the phrase _skuldu ist_, is characterised as
                  Message 8 of 15 , May 21, 2004
                    And just when I thought I understood this, here is an alternate view
                    on SKULD. In this article, SKULD, in the phrase _skuldu ist_, is
                    characterised as belonging to a class of "predicate nouns with modal
                    meaning" - "Indo-European Syntactic Rules & Gothic Morphology", by
                    Vyacheslav V Ivanov, p. 11).

                    http://www.humnet.ucla.edu/pies/pdfs/IESV/1/VVI_Gothic_syntax.pdf

                    I'm not sure how you'd distinguish between a neuter noun and a neuter
                    adjective used in this way. Wright saw it as an adjective. Koebler
                    has the adjective SKULDS, but lists instances under the headword of
                    the verb SKULAN, of which SKULDS is the past participle. Though he
                    does have a noun *skuld, it is treated as strictly hypothetical.

                    Either way, an interesting article on Gothic & IE syntax.

                    Llama Nom



                    --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <penterakt@f...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Hailai sijuth!
                    >
                    > And another alternative: nauths ist, literally "there is a need",
                    > works the same way as: thaurfts ist (with thaurfts here being the
                    > noun). With each, the thing needed is genitive. As a verb,
                    thaurban
                    > = "need", while skulan = "must, shall", with implications of
                    > obligation, but also used to make a compound future tense, where
                    the
                    > simple present might not be specific enough. Hey is everyone else
                    > doing what I'm doing and typing some Gothic phrase into Google to
                    > bypass the "Wulfila Project down for repairs" screen?
                    >
                    > Skuld- (apart from being the past tense of skulan) is used in two
                    > ways, with different meanings: 1) as an adjective, agreeing with
                    the
                    > nominative subject, and 2) impersonally as a neuter adjective +dat.
                    >
                    > "PASSIVE" skulds ist +inf. "one must be"
                    > "ACTIVE" skuld ist (+dat.) +inf. "one must" or "one is allowed to"
                    or
                    > more literally "it is permissible [for one] to"
                    > ni skuld ist (+dat.) +inf. "it is not permissible [for one] to"
                    >
                    > "Passive" and "active" might be slightly confusing labels, in the
                    > context, but the examples should make it clear. For the former,
                    see
                    > L 9,44 skulds ist...atgiban "MUST BE handed over"; and for the
                    latter
                    > Mk 10,2 skuldu sijai mann qen afsatjan? "is a man ALLOWED TO
                    divorce
                    > his wife?" and 1Cor 6,15 skuld auk ist thata riurjo gahamon
                    > unriurein "for that which is perishable MUST clothe itself with the
                    > imperishable".
                    >
                    > (This works even in 2 Cor 5,10, if you remember that
                    ataugjan 'show'
                    > has, when used passively, the special sense of "appear" as well
                    > as "show oneself"--allai weis ataugjan skuldai sijum "we must all
                    > appear".)
                    >
                    > So with our hypothetical example: skulum galeithan "we should
                    leave",
                    > but: skuld ist unsis galeithan "we are allowed to leave", or to
                    > reverse it: skuldai sijum bileithan "we must be left", and in the
                    > past: skuldai wesum bileithan [fram im] "we should have been left
                    [by
                    > them]". Or to deny it: ni skuld ist unsis galeithan "we aren't
                    > allowed to go", or if optional, ni thaurbum galeithan "we don't
                    need
                    > to go". To query: skuldu ist unsis galeithan? "are we allowed to
                    > go?"; niu skuld ist? "aren't we allowed?"; skulumu galeithan "do we
                    > have to go?"; or: ibai skulum galeithan "do we really have to go?"
                    > Or if we just don't give a damn: ni waiht wulthrais ist unsis
                    hwathar
                    > galeithaima thau ni galeithaima "it's of no importance to us
                    whether
                    > we go or not!"
                    >
                    > Llama Nom
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "ashley overs"
                    > <ashlovers_12344@h...> wrote:
                    > > thanks it realy helps me.
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > >From: matthew carver <me@m...>
                    > > >Reply-To: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com
                    > > >To: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com
                    > > >Subject: Re: [gothic-l] Re: Gothic equivalent for English 'must'
                    > > >Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 11:30:17 -0700
                    > > >
                    > > >hails!
                    > > >
                    > > >also there i believe is the possibility of
                    > > >the construction "skulds ist (+DAT)"
                    > > >meaning it is owing, lawful. Thaurfts
                    > > >from tharf- has the meaning of necessity,
                    > > >obligation. I thought these were impersonal
                    > > >constructions requiring a dative. Where
                    > > >does the phrase with thaurfts occur in the
                    > > >gothic bible as a modal or auxiliary verb?
                    > > >
                    > > >-matthew
                    > > >
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