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Re: [gothic-l] Gothic equivalent for English 'must'

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  • ashley overs
    thanks it help ... _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the MSN Premium and get 2 months FREE*
    Message 1 of 15 , May 10 7:34 AM
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      thanks it help


      >From: "Giuseppe Pagliarulo" <g.pagliarulo@...>
      >Reply-To: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com
      >To: <gothic-l@yahoogroups.com>
      >Subject: Re: [gothic-l] Gothic equivalent for English 'must'
      >Date: Sat, 8 May 2004 11:07:21 +0200
      >
      >
      >----- Original Message -----
      >From: "cern2004" <nialr@...>
      >To: <gothic-l@yahoogroups.com>
      >Sent: Thursday, April 01, 2004 6:17 PM
      >Subject: [gothic-l] Gothic equivalent for English 'must'
      >
      >
      > > How would one say that one 'must' do something in Gothic?
      >
      >I think _skulan_ is a good equivalent of _must_.
      >
      > > Eg how would one translate, 'We must go now'.
      >
      >Skulum nu gaggan.
      >
      > > Nearest I could work out was 'Thaurfts nu faran ist',
      > > literally 'Necessary now to-go it-is.'
      >
      >Not exactly. Thaurfts ist (you'll note that -s is the masculine
      >ending) means that somebody is meant to, in need to do someting: sa
      >thaurfts ist gaggan = he is in need to go. You have to use the neuter
      >thaurft in order to convey impersonal meaning.
      >
      >Hope this helps
      >
      >Iosef Strawarila
      >
      >

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    • ashley overs
      thanks it realy helps me. ... _________________________________________________________________ MSN Premium includes powerful parental controls and get 2
      Message 2 of 15 , May 10 2:25 PM
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        thanks it realy helps me.


        >From: matthew carver <me@...>
        >Reply-To: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com
        >To: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com
        >Subject: Re: [gothic-l] Re: Gothic equivalent for English 'must'
        >Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 11:30:17 -0700
        >
        >hails!
        >
        >also there i believe is the possibility of
        >the construction "skulds ist (+DAT)"
        >meaning it is owing, lawful. Thaurfts
        >from tharf- has the meaning of necessity,
        >obligation. I thought these were impersonal
        >constructions requiring a dative. Where
        >does the phrase with thaurfts occur in the
        >gothic bible as a modal or auxiliary verb?
        >
        >-matthew
        >
        >On mandag, maj 10, 2004, at 09:11 , llama_nom wrote:
        >
        > >
        > >>
        > >>> How would one say that one 'must' do something in Gothic?
        > >>
        > >> I think _skulan_ is a good equivalent of _must_.
        > >>
        > >>> Eg how would one translate, 'We must go now'.
        > >>
        > >> Skulum nu gaggan.
        > >>
        > >>> Nearest I could work out was 'Thaurfts nu faran ist',
        > >>> literally 'Necessary now to-go it-is.'
        > >>
        > >> Not exactly. Thaurfts ist (you'll note that -s is the masculine
        > >> ending) means that somebody is meant to, in need to do someting: sa
        > >> thaurfts ist gaggan = he is in need to go. You have to use the
        > > neuter
        > >> thaurft in order to convey impersonal meaning.
        > >>
        > >> Hope this helps
        > >>
        > >> Iosef Strawarila
        > >
        > >
        > > As you say, this is the simplest way:
        > >
        > > skulum nu gaggan - we should/must go/walk, let us go/walk
        > >
        > > Other possibilities:
        > >
        > > galeithan - go, depart
        > > usleithan - go out, depart, disappear
        > > afleithan - go, depart, leave (transitive or intransitive)
        > > afleithan aljath - go elsewhere, "be off"
        > > andqithan - say goodbye, take one's leave of, greet
        > > atgaggan - go/come (in a particular direction), approach, come down
        > > faran - go (attested just once in Gothic, L 10,7 in phrase "go from
        > > house to house")
        > > farjan - go by boat
        > > etc.
        > >
        > > And yes, "thaurft ist gaggan" seems reasonable for "it is necessary
        > > to go". The phrase isn't attested, as far as I know, but for the
        > > same construction with the synonymous "naudithaufts" see 2Cor 9,5:
        > > naudithaurft nu man bidjan brothruns ei galeithaina du izwis - I
        > > thought it necessary to ask the brothers to go to you.
        > >
        > > The adjective "thaurfts" appears at 1Cor 12,22 (masc.pl. thaurftai),
        > > meaning "necessary": thaurftai sind - they are necessary.
        > >
        > > In its weak masculine form it occurs at Mk 2,25 with a somewhat
        > > different meaning: thaurfta "needy", "in need".
        > >
        > > But "thaurfts" can also be a feminine i-stem noun, e.g. L 19,34:
        > > fraujin thaurfts this ist "the master needs it", lit. "there is a
        > > necessity to the master of it" (it being a colt/foal).
        > >
        > > So too can naudithaurfts, cf. chapter 2 of the Skeireins:
        > > naudithaurfts auk was jah gadob wistai du garehsn daupeinais
        > > andniman "For it was a necessity and in keeping with nature to
        > > receive the plan of baptism" (Marchand translation).
        > >
        > > So returning to the original question, I think "thaurfts nu faran
        > > ist" is quite acceptable Gothic too, but perhaps meaning "there is a
        > > need to travel" or "to go about", rather than "go" in the sense
        > > of "depart", though it's impossible to be definitive from just one
        > > attested example.
        > >
        > > To say "he needs to go", then might be: "thaurft(s) ist imma gaggan",
        > > or something like that, the -s being optional (depending on whether
        > > you treat it as a feminine noun or a neuter adjective). To say "we
        > > have to go", with this construction, just swap "imma" for "uns"
        > > or "unsis".
        > >
        > > That's my guess.
        > >
        > > Llama Nom
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a
        > > blank email to <gothic-l-unsubscribe@egroups.com>.
        > > Yahoo! Groups Links
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        >

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      • Debbie Williams
        Does anyone know where to get a Gothic language dictionary? I would love to learn the language since I m also trying to pick up learning German & Norwegian.
        Message 3 of 15 , May 11 1:09 PM
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          Does anyone know where to get a Gothic language dictionary? I would love to learn the language since I'm also trying to pick up learning German & Norwegian. Much thanks to anyone who can help.

          llama_nom <penterakt@...> wrote:
          >
          > > How would one say that one 'must' do something in Gothic?
          >
          > I think _skulan_ is a good equivalent of _must_.
          >
          > > Eg how would one translate, 'We must go now'.
          >
          > Skulum nu gaggan.
          >
          > > Nearest I could work out was 'Thaurfts nu faran ist',
          > > literally 'Necessary now to-go it-is.'
          >
          > Not exactly. Thaurfts ist (you'll note that -s is the masculine
          > ending) means that somebody is meant to, in need to do someting: sa
          > thaurfts ist gaggan = he is in need to go. You have to use the
          neuter
          > thaurft in order to convey impersonal meaning.
          >
          > Hope this helps
          >
          > Iosef Strawarila


          As you say, this is the simplest way:

          skulum nu gaggan - we should/must go/walk, let us go/walk

          Other possibilities:

          galeithan - go, depart
          usleithan - go out, depart, disappear
          afleithan - go, depart, leave (transitive or intransitive)
          afleithan aljath - go elsewhere, "be off"
          andqithan - say goodbye, take one's leave of, greet
          atgaggan - go/come (in a particular direction), approach, come down
          faran - go (attested just once in Gothic, L 10,7 in phrase "go from
          house to house")
          farjan - go by boat
          etc.

          And yes, "thaurft ist gaggan" seems reasonable for "it is necessary
          to go". The phrase isn't attested, as far as I know, but for the
          same construction with the synonymous "naudithaufts" see 2Cor 9,5:
          naudithaurft nu man bidjan brothruns ei galeithaina du izwis - I
          thought it necessary to ask the brothers to go to you.

          The adjective "thaurfts" appears at 1Cor 12,22 (masc.pl. thaurftai),
          meaning "necessary": thaurftai sind - they are necessary.

          In its weak masculine form it occurs at Mk 2,25 with a somewhat
          different meaning: thaurfta "needy", "in need".

          But "thaurfts" can also be a feminine i-stem noun, e.g. L 19,34:
          fraujin thaurfts this ist "the master needs it", lit. "there is a
          necessity to the master of it" (it being a colt/foal).

          So too can naudithaurfts, cf. chapter 2 of the Skeireins:
          naudithaurfts auk was jah gadob wistai du garehsn daupeinais
          andniman "For it was a necessity and in keeping with nature to
          receive the plan of baptism" (Marchand translation).

          So returning to the original question, I think "thaurfts nu faran
          ist" is quite acceptable Gothic too, but perhaps meaning "there is a
          need to travel" or "to go about", rather than "go" in the sense
          of "depart", though it's impossible to be definitive from just one
          attested example.

          To say "he needs to go", then might be: "thaurft(s) ist imma gaggan",
          or something like that, the -s being optional (depending on whether
          you treat it as a feminine noun or a neuter adjective). To say "we
          have to go", with this construction, just swap "imma" for "uns"
          or "unsis".

          That's my guess.

          Llama Nom



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        • Francisc Czobor
          As far as I know, te best Gothic dictionary available for free on the web is Koebler s Gotisches Woertebuch (Gothic - German/English/Greek/Latin, with
          Message 4 of 15 , May 13 12:33 AM
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            As far as I know, te best Gothic dictionary available for free on the
            web is Koebler's "Gotisches Woertebuch" (Gothic -
            German/English/Greek/Latin, with German-Gothic, English-Gothic, Latin-
            Gothic and Greek-Gothic finder):
            http://homepage.uibk.ac.at/homepage/c303/c30310/gotwbhin.html
            Other, less elaborate Gothic dictionaries available freely on the web
            are:
            Wright's Gothic Glossary (Gothic-English):
            http://www.ling.upenn.edu/~kurisuto/germanic/goth_wright_glossary.html
            Eric Craven's Gothic-German Glossary:
            http://craven.hypermart.net/Gothic.txt
            (not accessible at this moment)
            Kunhihuzd (Tim O'Neill's page on Gothic names):
            http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Salon/2385/gothnames.html
            Crimean Gothic - English Glossary:
            http://www.geocities.com/erwan-ar-skoul/gothmod.htm
            I hope this helps.
            Best regards,
            Francisc


            --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Debbie Williams
            <corbeau_13_2000@y...> wrote:
            > Does anyone know where to get a Gothic language dictionary? I would
            love to learn the language since I'm also trying to pick up learning
            German & Norwegian. Much thanks to anyone who can help.
            >
            ]
          • llama_nom
            Hailai sijuth! And another alternative: nauths ist, literally there is a need , works the same way as: thaurfts ist (with thaurfts here being the noun). With
            Message 5 of 15 , May 13 3:47 AM
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              Hailai sijuth!

              And another alternative: nauths ist, literally "there is a need",
              works the same way as: thaurfts ist (with thaurfts here being the
              noun). With each, the thing needed is genitive. As a verb, thaurban
              = "need", while skulan = "must, shall", with implications of
              obligation, but also used to make a compound future tense, where the
              simple present might not be specific enough. Hey is everyone else
              doing what I'm doing and typing some Gothic phrase into Google to
              bypass the "Wulfila Project down for repairs" screen?

              Skuld- (apart from being the past tense of skulan) is used in two
              ways, with different meanings: 1) as an adjective, agreeing with the
              nominative subject, and 2) impersonally as a neuter adjective +dat.

              "PASSIVE" skulds ist +inf. "one must be"
              "ACTIVE" skuld ist (+dat.) +inf. "one must" or "one is allowed to" or
              more literally "it is permissible [for one] to"
              ni skuld ist (+dat.) +inf. "it is not permissible [for one] to"

              "Passive" and "active" might be slightly confusing labels, in the
              context, but the examples should make it clear. For the former, see
              L 9,44 skulds ist...atgiban "MUST BE handed over"; and for the latter
              Mk 10,2 skuldu sijai mann qen afsatjan? "is a man ALLOWED TO divorce
              his wife?" and 1Cor 6,15 skuld auk ist thata riurjo gahamon
              unriurein "for that which is perishable MUST clothe itself with the
              imperishable".

              (This works even in 2 Cor 5,10, if you remember that ataugjan 'show'
              has, when used passively, the special sense of "appear" as well
              as "show oneself"--allai weis ataugjan skuldai sijum "we must all
              appear".)

              So with our hypothetical example: skulum galeithan "we should leave",
              but: skuld ist unsis galeithan "we are allowed to leave", or to
              reverse it: skuldai sijum bileithan "we must be left", and in the
              past: skuldai wesum bileithan [fram im] "we should have been left [by
              them]". Or to deny it: ni skuld ist unsis galeithan "we aren't
              allowed to go", or if optional, ni thaurbum galeithan "we don't need
              to go". To query: skuldu ist unsis galeithan? "are we allowed to
              go?"; niu skuld ist? "aren't we allowed?"; skulumu galeithan "do we
              have to go?"; or: ibai skulum galeithan "do we really have to go?"
              Or if we just don't give a damn: ni waiht wulthrais ist unsis hwathar
              galeithaima thau ni galeithaima "it's of no importance to us whether
              we go or not!"

              Llama Nom



              --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "ashley overs"
              <ashlovers_12344@h...> wrote:
              > thanks it realy helps me.
              >
              >
              > >From: matthew carver <me@m...>
              > >Reply-To: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com
              > >To: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com
              > >Subject: Re: [gothic-l] Re: Gothic equivalent for English 'must'
              > >Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 11:30:17 -0700
              > >
              > >hails!
              > >
              > >also there i believe is the possibility of
              > >the construction "skulds ist (+DAT)"
              > >meaning it is owing, lawful. Thaurfts
              > >from tharf- has the meaning of necessity,
              > >obligation. I thought these were impersonal
              > >constructions requiring a dative. Where
              > >does the phrase with thaurfts occur in the
              > >gothic bible as a modal or auxiliary verb?
              > >
              > >-matthew
              > >
              > >On mandag, maj 10, 2004, at 09:11 , llama_nom wrote:
              > >
              > > >
              > > >>
              > > >>> How would one say that one 'must' do something in Gothic?
              > > >>
              > > >> I think _skulan_ is a good equivalent of _must_.
              > > >>
              > > >>> Eg how would one translate, 'We must go now'.
              > > >>
              > > >> Skulum nu gaggan.
              > > >>
              > > >>> Nearest I could work out was 'Thaurfts nu faran ist',
              > > >>> literally 'Necessary now to-go it-is.'
              > > >>
              > > >> Not exactly. Thaurfts ist (you'll note that -s is the masculine
              > > >> ending) means that somebody is meant to, in need to do
              someting: sa
              > > >> thaurfts ist gaggan = he is in need to go. You have to use the
              > > > neuter
              > > >> thaurft in order to convey impersonal meaning.
              > > >>
              > > >> Hope this helps
              > > >>
              > > >> Iosef Strawarila
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > As you say, this is the simplest way:
              > > >
              > > > skulum nu gaggan - we should/must go/walk, let us go/walk
              > > >
              > > > Other possibilities:
              > > >
              > > > galeithan - go, depart
              > > > usleithan - go out, depart, disappear
              > > > afleithan - go, depart, leave (transitive or intransitive)
              > > > afleithan aljath - go elsewhere, "be off"
              > > > andqithan - say goodbye, take one's leave of, greet
              > > > atgaggan - go/come (in a particular direction), approach, come
              down
              > > > faran - go (attested just once in Gothic, L 10,7 in phrase "go
              from
              > > > house to house")
              > > > farjan - go by boat
              > > > etc.
              > > >
              > > > And yes, "thaurft ist gaggan" seems reasonable for "it is
              necessary
              > > > to go". The phrase isn't attested, as far as I know, but for
              the
              > > > same construction with the synonymous "naudithaufts" see 2Cor
              9,5:
              > > > naudithaurft nu man bidjan brothruns ei galeithaina du izwis - I
              > > > thought it necessary to ask the brothers to go to you.
              > > >
              > > > The adjective "thaurfts" appears at 1Cor 12,22 (masc.pl.
              thaurftai),
              > > > meaning "necessary": thaurftai sind - they are necessary.
              > > >
              > > > In its weak masculine form it occurs at Mk 2,25 with a somewhat
              > > > different meaning: thaurfta "needy", "in need".
              > > >
              > > > But "thaurfts" can also be a feminine i-stem noun, e.g. L 19,34:
              > > > fraujin thaurfts this ist "the master needs it", lit. "there is
              a
              > > > necessity to the master of it" (it being a colt/foal).
              > > >
              > > > So too can naudithaurfts, cf. chapter 2 of the Skeireins:
              > > > naudithaurfts auk was jah gadob wistai du garehsn daupeinais
              > > > andniman "For it was a necessity and in keeping with nature to
              > > > receive the plan of baptism" (Marchand translation).
              > > >
              > > > So returning to the original question, I think "thaurfts nu
              faran
              > > > ist" is quite acceptable Gothic too, but perhaps meaning "there
              is a
              > > > need to travel" or "to go about", rather than "go" in the sense
              > > > of "depart", though it's impossible to be definitive from just
              one
              > > > attested example.
              > > >
              > > > To say "he needs to go", then might be: "thaurft(s) ist imma
              gaggan",
              > > > or something like that, the -s being optional (depending on
              whether
              > > > you treat it as a feminine noun or a neuter adjective). To
              say "we
              > > > have to go", with this construction, just swap "imma" for "uns"
              > > > or "unsis".
              > > >
              > > > That's my guess.
              > > >
              > > > Llama Nom
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a
              > > > blank email to <gothic-l-unsubscribe@egroups.com>.
              > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > >
              >
              > _________________________________________________________________
              > MSN Premium includes powerful parental controls and get 2 months
              FREE*
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              ket_MSNIS_Taglines
            • llama_nom
              Here are some Gothic links which I ve found helpful and interesting, including some Francisc mentioned. I m surprised we don t have a selection of such links
              Message 6 of 15 , May 13 4:43 AM
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                Here are some Gothic links which I've found helpful and interesting,
                including some Francisc mentioned. I'm surprised we don't have a
                selection of such links in the LINKS section of gothic-l. I'm not
                quite sure how to add them though... Some other excellent addresses
                not included here can be found at: http://www.reimar.de/gotisch.html

                TEXTS

                The Wulfila Project: online searchable Gothic corpus + online edition
                of Streitberg's "Gotisches Elementarbuch" (minus the section on
                Syntax, for copyright reasons...)
                http://www.wulfila.be

                The Skeireins Project: some of the smaller fragments of Gothic which
                have survived, including the Skeireins + multiple translations:
                http://germa.germsem.uni-kiel.de/gotisch/gotisch.html

                Titus Project: huge collection of Indo-European texts, including the
                Gothic corpus (click on "text database" in the right window)
                http://titus.uni-frankfurt.de/indexe.htm


                DICTIONARIES, etc.

                Gerhard Koebler (Gothic and other dictionaries, including Old Norse,
                Old Saxon, Old English, Old High German, Old Frisian, etc.)
                http://www.koeblergerhard.de/publikat.html

                Sean Christ's Indo-European Language Resources: a wealth of material
                including Heyne's dictionary (Gothic-German), Balg's 'Comparative
                Glossary of the Gothic Language', Wright's 'Grammar of the Gothic
                Language' & Braune's 'Gotische Grammatik' + grammars and dictionaries
                for Old Icelandic, Old English, and many more...
                http://www.ling.upenn.edu/~kurisuto/germanic/language_resources.html

                Gothic-German glossary (from Lehrbuch der Gotischen Sprache, Johannes
                Friedrich) http://craven.hypermart.net/Gothic.txt

                Gothic Names (Tim O'Neill: list of name elements, meanings and Old
                English equivalents)
                http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Salon/2385/gothnames.html

                Crimean Gothic Wordlist
                http://www.geocities.com/erwan-ar-skoul/gothmod.htm

                My own still highly imperfect and constantly under revision English-
                Gothic dictionary--use at your peril...
                http://freespace.virgin.net/o.e/egd/egdhome.html


                MODERN WRITING IN GOTHIC

                The Gotish Tongue Website (Matthew Carver: poems, riddles,
                Tolkien's "Bagme Bloma") http://www.stormloader.com/carver/gutrazda

                The Gothic Heathen Homepage (Albareiks: history, religion, modern
                poems in Gothic) http://www.angelfire.com/goth/kuni/


                MISCELLANEOUS

                Database of the Gothic Language (Manuscripts, digitising the Codex
                Argenteus) http://www.cs.tut.fi/~dla/gothic.html

                Reimar's Gothic Links (in German)
                http://www.reimar.de/gotisch.html

                Gothic Book List
                http://www.the-orb-net/wemsk/gothicwemsk.html

                Results for "Gothic" on MavicaNET Multilingual Search Catalog
                http://www.mavicanet.com/directory/eng/1350.html?iss=0

                A gentle "introduction to Gothic" with graded lessons by David Salo:
                http://members.terracom.net/~dorothea/david/gothic/

                ...and in German, adapted by Jens Vorbrink:
                http://www.gotisch.de/


                Hope there's something of use in amongst that lot...

                Llama Nom



                --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "Francisc Czobor" <fericzobor@y...>
                wrote:
                > As far as I know, te best Gothic dictionary available for free on
                the
                > web is Koebler's "Gotisches Woertebuch" (Gothic -
                > German/English/Greek/Latin, with German-Gothic, English-Gothic,
                Latin-
                > Gothic and Greek-Gothic finder):
                > http://homepage.uibk.ac.at/homepage/c303/c30310/gotwbhin.html
                > Other, less elaborate Gothic dictionaries available freely on the
                web
                > are:
                > Wright's Gothic Glossary (Gothic-English):
                >
                http://www.ling.upenn.edu/~kurisuto/germanic/goth_wright_glossary.html
                > Eric Craven's Gothic-German Glossary:
                > http://craven.hypermart.net/Gothic.txt
                > (not accessible at this moment)
                > Kunhihuzd (Tim O'Neill's page on Gothic names):
                > http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Salon/2385/gothnames.html
                > Crimean Gothic - English Glossary:
                > http://www.geocities.com/erwan-ar-skoul/gothmod.htm
                > I hope this helps.
                > Best regards,
                > Francisc
                >
                >
                > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Debbie Williams
                > <corbeau_13_2000@y...> wrote:
                > > Does anyone know where to get a Gothic language dictionary? I
                would
                > love to learn the language since I'm also trying to pick up
                learning
                > German & Norwegian. Much thanks to anyone who can help.
                > >
                > ]
              • faltin2001
                ... I guess Gothic nauths is related to mod. German Not/Noetig , when we say es tut Not meaning it is necessary . ... Gothic thaurfts is probably
                Message 7 of 15 , May 13 6:37 AM
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                  --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <penterakt@f...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Hailai sijuth!
                  >
                  > And another alternative: nauths ist, literally "there is a need",



                  I guess Gothic 'nauths' is related to mod. German 'Not/Noetig', when
                  we say 'es tut Not' meaning 'it is necessary'.








                  > works the same way as: thaurfts ist (with thaurfts here being the
                  > noun).



                  Gothic 'thaurfts' is probably related to mod. German 'Be -
                  darf/Duerftig', which also indicates that something is necessary.



                  > Skuld- (apart from being the past tense of skulan) is used in two
                  > ways, with different meanings: 1) as an adjective, agreeing with
                  the
                  > nominative subject, and 2) impersonally as a neuter adjective +dat.
                  >
                  > "PASSIVE" skulds ist +inf. "one must be"
                  > "ACTIVE" skuld ist (+dat.) +inf. "one must" or "one is allowed to"
                  or
                  > more literally "it is permissible [for one] to"
                  > ni skuld ist (+dat.) +inf. "it is not permissible [for one] to"




                  Gothic 'skulds' is is probably related to mod. German 'Schuld'.


                  Just guessing around ...

                  Cheers
                  Dirk
                • llama_nom
                  ... when ... Right on all counts, I think. Also, Skuld, the name of a norn... Llama Nom
                  Message 8 of 15 , May 14 9:53 AM
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                    --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "faltin2001" <dirk@s...> wrote:

                    >
                    > I guess Gothic 'nauths' is related to mod. German 'Not/Noetig',
                    when
                    > we say 'es tut Not' meaning 'it is necessary'.
                    >
                    > Gothic 'thaurfts' is probably related to mod. German 'Be -
                    > darf/Duerftig', which also indicates that something is necessary.
                    >
                    > > Gothic 'skulds' is is probably related to mod. German 'Schuld'.

                    > Just guessing around ...
                    >
                    > Cheers
                    > Dirk

                    Right on all counts, I think. Also, Skuld, the name of a norn...

                    Llama Nom
                  • cheyenne nicole
                    llama_nom wrote: Here are some Gothic links which I ve found helpful and interesting, including some Francisc mentioned. I m surprised
                    Message 9 of 15 , May 16 10:23 AM
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                      llama_nom <penterakt@...> wrote:
                      Here are some Gothic links which I've found helpful and interesting,
                      including some Francisc mentioned. I'm surprised we don't have a
                      selection of such links in the LINKS section of gothic-l. I'm not
                      quite sure how to add them though... Some other excellent addresses
                      not included here can be found at: http://www.reimar.de/gotisch.html

                      TEXTS

                      The Wulfila Project: online searchable Gothic corpus + online edition
                      of Streitberg's "Gotisches Elementarbuch" (minus the section on
                      Syntax, for copyright reasons...)
                      http://www.wulfila.be

                      The Skeireins Project: some of the smaller fragments of Gothic which
                      have survived, including the Skeireins + multiple translations:
                      http://germa.germsem.uni-kiel.de/gotisch/gotisch.html

                      Titus Project: huge collection of Indo-European texts, including the
                      Gothic corpus (click on "text database" in the right window)
                      http://titus.uni-frankfurt.de/indexe.htm


                      DICTIONARIES, etc.

                      Gerhard Koebler (Gothic and other dictionaries, including Old Norse,
                      Old Saxon, Old English, Old High German, Old Frisian, etc.)
                      http://www.koeblergerhard.de/publikat.html

                      Sean Christ's Indo-European Language Resources: a wealth of material
                      including Heyne's dictionary (Gothic-German), Balg's 'Comparative
                      Glossary of the Gothic Language', Wright's 'Grammar of the Gothic
                      Language' & Braune's 'Gotische Grammatik' + grammars and dictionaries
                      for Old Icelandic, Old English, and many more...
                      http://www.ling.upenn.edu/~kurisuto/germanic/language_resources.html

                      Gothic-German glossary (from Lehrbuch der Gotischen Sprache, Johannes
                      Friedrich) http://craven.hypermart.net/Gothic.txt

                      Gothic Names (Tim O'Neill: list of name elements, meanings and Old
                      English equivalents)
                      http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Salon/2385/gothnames.html

                      Crimean Gothic Wordlist
                      http://www.geocities.com/erwan-ar-skoul/gothmod.htm

                      My own still highly imperfect and constantly under revision English-
                      Gothic dictionary--use at your peril...
                      http://freespace.virgin.net/o.e/egd/egdhome.html


                      MODERN WRITING IN GOTHIC

                      The Gotish Tongue Website (Matthew Carver: poems, riddles,
                      Tolkien's "Bagme Bloma") http://www.stormloader.com/carver/gutrazda

                      The Gothic Heathen Homepage (Albareiks: history, religion, modern
                      poems in Gothic) http://www.angelfire.com/goth/kuni/


                      MISCELLANEOUS

                      Database of the Gothic Language (Manuscripts, digitising the Codex
                      Argenteus) http://www.cs.tut.fi/~dla/gothic.html

                      Reimar's Gothic Links (in German)
                      http://www.reimar.de/gotisch.html

                      Gothic Book List
                      http://www.the-orb-net/wemsk/gothicwemsk.html

                      Results for "Gothic" on MavicaNET Multilingual Search Catalog
                      http://www.mavicanet.com/directory/eng/1350.html?iss=0

                      A gentle "introduction to Gothic" with graded lessons by David Salo:
                      http://members.terracom.net/~dorothea/david/gothic/

                      ...and in German, adapted by Jens Vorbrink:
                      http://www.gotisch.de/


                      Hope there's something of use in amongst that lot...

                      Llama Nom



                      --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "Francisc Czobor"
                      wrote:
                      > As far as I know, te best Gothic dictionary available for free on
                      the
                      > web is Koebler's "Gotisches Woertebuch" (Gothic -
                      > German/English/Greek/Latin, with German-Gothic, English-Gothic,
                      Latin-
                      > Gothic and Greek-Gothic finder):
                      > http://homepage.uibk.ac.at/homepage/c303/c30310/gotwbhin.html
                      > Other, less elaborate Gothic dictionaries available freely on the
                      web
                      > are:
                      > Wright's Gothic Glossary (Gothic-English):
                      >
                      http://www.ling.upenn.edu/~kurisuto/germanic/goth_wright_glossary.html
                      > Eric Craven's Gothic-German Glossary:
                      > http://craven.hypermart.net/Gothic.txt
                      > (not accessible at this moment)
                      > Kunhihuzd (Tim O'Neill's page on Gothic names):
                      > http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Salon/2385/gothnames.html
                      > Crimean Gothic - English Glossary:
                      > http://www.geocities.com/erwan-ar-skoul/gothmod.htm
                      > I hope this helps.
                      > Best regards,
                      > Francisc
                      >
                      >
                      > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Debbie Williams
                      > wrote:
                      > > Does anyone know where to get a Gothic language dictionary? I
                      would
                      > love to learn the language since I'm also trying to pick up
                      learning
                      > German & Norwegian. Much thanks to anyone who can help.
                      > >
                      > ]




                      You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a blank email to .
                      Yahoo! Groups Links




                      Thank you for helping me,i don't get alot of help. This will help me alot.



                      Cheyenne

                      ---------------------------------
                      Do you Yahoo!?
                      SBC Yahoo! - Internet access at a great low price.

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • llama_nom
                      And just when I thought I understood this, here is an alternate view on SKULD. In this article, SKULD, in the phrase _skuldu ist_, is characterised as
                      Message 10 of 15 , May 21 7:48 AM
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                        And just when I thought I understood this, here is an alternate view
                        on SKULD. In this article, SKULD, in the phrase _skuldu ist_, is
                        characterised as belonging to a class of "predicate nouns with modal
                        meaning" - "Indo-European Syntactic Rules & Gothic Morphology", by
                        Vyacheslav V Ivanov, p. 11).

                        http://www.humnet.ucla.edu/pies/pdfs/IESV/1/VVI_Gothic_syntax.pdf

                        I'm not sure how you'd distinguish between a neuter noun and a neuter
                        adjective used in this way. Wright saw it as an adjective. Koebler
                        has the adjective SKULDS, but lists instances under the headword of
                        the verb SKULAN, of which SKULDS is the past participle. Though he
                        does have a noun *skuld, it is treated as strictly hypothetical.

                        Either way, an interesting article on Gothic & IE syntax.

                        Llama Nom



                        --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <penterakt@f...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Hailai sijuth!
                        >
                        > And another alternative: nauths ist, literally "there is a need",
                        > works the same way as: thaurfts ist (with thaurfts here being the
                        > noun). With each, the thing needed is genitive. As a verb,
                        thaurban
                        > = "need", while skulan = "must, shall", with implications of
                        > obligation, but also used to make a compound future tense, where
                        the
                        > simple present might not be specific enough. Hey is everyone else
                        > doing what I'm doing and typing some Gothic phrase into Google to
                        > bypass the "Wulfila Project down for repairs" screen?
                        >
                        > Skuld- (apart from being the past tense of skulan) is used in two
                        > ways, with different meanings: 1) as an adjective, agreeing with
                        the
                        > nominative subject, and 2) impersonally as a neuter adjective +dat.
                        >
                        > "PASSIVE" skulds ist +inf. "one must be"
                        > "ACTIVE" skuld ist (+dat.) +inf. "one must" or "one is allowed to"
                        or
                        > more literally "it is permissible [for one] to"
                        > ni skuld ist (+dat.) +inf. "it is not permissible [for one] to"
                        >
                        > "Passive" and "active" might be slightly confusing labels, in the
                        > context, but the examples should make it clear. For the former,
                        see
                        > L 9,44 skulds ist...atgiban "MUST BE handed over"; and for the
                        latter
                        > Mk 10,2 skuldu sijai mann qen afsatjan? "is a man ALLOWED TO
                        divorce
                        > his wife?" and 1Cor 6,15 skuld auk ist thata riurjo gahamon
                        > unriurein "for that which is perishable MUST clothe itself with the
                        > imperishable".
                        >
                        > (This works even in 2 Cor 5,10, if you remember that
                        ataugjan 'show'
                        > has, when used passively, the special sense of "appear" as well
                        > as "show oneself"--allai weis ataugjan skuldai sijum "we must all
                        > appear".)
                        >
                        > So with our hypothetical example: skulum galeithan "we should
                        leave",
                        > but: skuld ist unsis galeithan "we are allowed to leave", or to
                        > reverse it: skuldai sijum bileithan "we must be left", and in the
                        > past: skuldai wesum bileithan [fram im] "we should have been left
                        [by
                        > them]". Or to deny it: ni skuld ist unsis galeithan "we aren't
                        > allowed to go", or if optional, ni thaurbum galeithan "we don't
                        need
                        > to go". To query: skuldu ist unsis galeithan? "are we allowed to
                        > go?"; niu skuld ist? "aren't we allowed?"; skulumu galeithan "do we
                        > have to go?"; or: ibai skulum galeithan "do we really have to go?"
                        > Or if we just don't give a damn: ni waiht wulthrais ist unsis
                        hwathar
                        > galeithaima thau ni galeithaima "it's of no importance to us
                        whether
                        > we go or not!"
                        >
                        > Llama Nom
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "ashley overs"
                        > <ashlovers_12344@h...> wrote:
                        > > thanks it realy helps me.
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > >From: matthew carver <me@m...>
                        > > >Reply-To: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com
                        > > >To: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com
                        > > >Subject: Re: [gothic-l] Re: Gothic equivalent for English 'must'
                        > > >Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 11:30:17 -0700
                        > > >
                        > > >hails!
                        > > >
                        > > >also there i believe is the possibility of
                        > > >the construction "skulds ist (+DAT)"
                        > > >meaning it is owing, lawful. Thaurfts
                        > > >from tharf- has the meaning of necessity,
                        > > >obligation. I thought these were impersonal
                        > > >constructions requiring a dative. Where
                        > > >does the phrase with thaurfts occur in the
                        > > >gothic bible as a modal or auxiliary verb?
                        > > >
                        > > >-matthew
                        > > >
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