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Re: [gothic-l] Gothic equivalent for English 'must'

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  • ashley overs
    thanks it help ... _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the MSN Premium and get 2 months FREE*
    Message 1 of 15 , May 10, 2004
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      thanks it help


      >From: "Giuseppe Pagliarulo" <g.pagliarulo@...>
      >Reply-To: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com
      >To: <gothic-l@yahoogroups.com>
      >Subject: Re: [gothic-l] Gothic equivalent for English 'must'
      >Date: Sat, 8 May 2004 11:07:21 +0200
      >
      >
      >----- Original Message -----
      >From: "cern2004" <nialr@...>
      >To: <gothic-l@yahoogroups.com>
      >Sent: Thursday, April 01, 2004 6:17 PM
      >Subject: [gothic-l] Gothic equivalent for English 'must'
      >
      >
      > > How would one say that one 'must' do something in Gothic?
      >
      >I think _skulan_ is a good equivalent of _must_.
      >
      > > Eg how would one translate, 'We must go now'.
      >
      >Skulum nu gaggan.
      >
      > > Nearest I could work out was 'Thaurfts nu faran ist',
      > > literally 'Necessary now to-go it-is.'
      >
      >Not exactly. Thaurfts ist (you'll note that -s is the masculine
      >ending) means that somebody is meant to, in need to do someting: sa
      >thaurfts ist gaggan = he is in need to go. You have to use the neuter
      >thaurft in order to convey impersonal meaning.
      >
      >Hope this helps
      >
      >Iosef Strawarila
      >
      >

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    • matthew carver
      hails! also there i believe is the possibility of the construction skulds ist (+DAT) meaning it is owing, lawful. Thaurfts from tharf- has the meaning of
      Message 2 of 15 , May 10, 2004
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        hails!

        also there i believe is the possibility of
        the construction "skulds ist (+DAT)"
        meaning it is owing, lawful. Thaurfts
        from tharf- has the meaning of necessity,
        obligation. I thought these were impersonal
        constructions requiring a dative. Where
        does the phrase with thaurfts occur in the
        gothic bible as a modal or auxiliary verb?

        -matthew

        On mandag, maj 10, 2004, at 09:11 , llama_nom wrote:

        >
        >>
        >>> How would one say that one 'must' do something in Gothic?
        >>
        >> I think _skulan_ is a good equivalent of _must_.
        >>
        >>> Eg how would one translate, 'We must go now'.
        >>
        >> Skulum nu gaggan.
        >>
        >>> Nearest I could work out was 'Thaurfts nu faran ist',
        >>> literally 'Necessary now to-go it-is.'
        >>
        >> Not exactly. Thaurfts ist (you'll note that -s is the masculine
        >> ending) means that somebody is meant to, in need to do someting: sa
        >> thaurfts ist gaggan = he is in need to go. You have to use the
        > neuter
        >> thaurft in order to convey impersonal meaning.
        >>
        >> Hope this helps
        >>
        >> Iosef Strawarila
        >
        >
        > As you say, this is the simplest way:
        >
        > skulum nu gaggan - we should/must go/walk, let us go/walk
        >
        > Other possibilities:
        >
        > galeithan - go, depart
        > usleithan - go out, depart, disappear
        > afleithan - go, depart, leave (transitive or intransitive)
        > afleithan aljath - go elsewhere, "be off"
        > andqithan - say goodbye, take one's leave of, greet
        > atgaggan - go/come (in a particular direction), approach, come down
        > faran - go (attested just once in Gothic, L 10,7 in phrase "go from
        > house to house")
        > farjan - go by boat
        > etc.
        >
        > And yes, "thaurft ist gaggan" seems reasonable for "it is necessary
        > to go". The phrase isn't attested, as far as I know, but for the
        > same construction with the synonymous "naudithaufts" see 2Cor 9,5:
        > naudithaurft nu man bidjan brothruns ei galeithaina du izwis - I
        > thought it necessary to ask the brothers to go to you.
        >
        > The adjective "thaurfts" appears at 1Cor 12,22 (masc.pl. thaurftai),
        > meaning "necessary": thaurftai sind - they are necessary.
        >
        > In its weak masculine form it occurs at Mk 2,25 with a somewhat
        > different meaning: thaurfta "needy", "in need".
        >
        > But "thaurfts" can also be a feminine i-stem noun, e.g. L 19,34:
        > fraujin thaurfts this ist "the master needs it", lit. "there is a
        > necessity to the master of it" (it being a colt/foal).
        >
        > So too can naudithaurfts, cf. chapter 2 of the Skeireins:
        > naudithaurfts auk was jah gadob wistai du garehsn daupeinais
        > andniman "For it was a necessity and in keeping with nature to
        > receive the plan of baptism" (Marchand translation).
        >
        > So returning to the original question, I think "thaurfts nu faran
        > ist" is quite acceptable Gothic too, but perhaps meaning "there is a
        > need to travel" or "to go about", rather than "go" in the sense
        > of "depart", though it's impossible to be definitive from just one
        > attested example.
        >
        > To say "he needs to go", then might be: "thaurft(s) ist imma gaggan",
        > or something like that, the -s being optional (depending on whether
        > you treat it as a feminine noun or a neuter adjective). To say "we
        > have to go", with this construction, just swap "imma" for "uns"
        > or "unsis".
        >
        > That's my guess.
        >
        > Llama Nom
        >
        >
        >
        > You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a
        > blank email to <gothic-l-unsubscribe@egroups.com>.
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
      • ashley overs
        thanks it realy helps me. ... _________________________________________________________________ MSN Premium includes powerful parental controls and get 2
        Message 3 of 15 , May 10, 2004
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          thanks it realy helps me.


          >From: matthew carver <me@...>
          >Reply-To: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com
          >To: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com
          >Subject: Re: [gothic-l] Re: Gothic equivalent for English 'must'
          >Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 11:30:17 -0700
          >
          >hails!
          >
          >also there i believe is the possibility of
          >the construction "skulds ist (+DAT)"
          >meaning it is owing, lawful. Thaurfts
          >from tharf- has the meaning of necessity,
          >obligation. I thought these were impersonal
          >constructions requiring a dative. Where
          >does the phrase with thaurfts occur in the
          >gothic bible as a modal or auxiliary verb?
          >
          >-matthew
          >
          >On mandag, maj 10, 2004, at 09:11 , llama_nom wrote:
          >
          > >
          > >>
          > >>> How would one say that one 'must' do something in Gothic?
          > >>
          > >> I think _skulan_ is a good equivalent of _must_.
          > >>
          > >>> Eg how would one translate, 'We must go now'.
          > >>
          > >> Skulum nu gaggan.
          > >>
          > >>> Nearest I could work out was 'Thaurfts nu faran ist',
          > >>> literally 'Necessary now to-go it-is.'
          > >>
          > >> Not exactly. Thaurfts ist (you'll note that -s is the masculine
          > >> ending) means that somebody is meant to, in need to do someting: sa
          > >> thaurfts ist gaggan = he is in need to go. You have to use the
          > > neuter
          > >> thaurft in order to convey impersonal meaning.
          > >>
          > >> Hope this helps
          > >>
          > >> Iosef Strawarila
          > >
          > >
          > > As you say, this is the simplest way:
          > >
          > > skulum nu gaggan - we should/must go/walk, let us go/walk
          > >
          > > Other possibilities:
          > >
          > > galeithan - go, depart
          > > usleithan - go out, depart, disappear
          > > afleithan - go, depart, leave (transitive or intransitive)
          > > afleithan aljath - go elsewhere, "be off"
          > > andqithan - say goodbye, take one's leave of, greet
          > > atgaggan - go/come (in a particular direction), approach, come down
          > > faran - go (attested just once in Gothic, L 10,7 in phrase "go from
          > > house to house")
          > > farjan - go by boat
          > > etc.
          > >
          > > And yes, "thaurft ist gaggan" seems reasonable for "it is necessary
          > > to go". The phrase isn't attested, as far as I know, but for the
          > > same construction with the synonymous "naudithaufts" see 2Cor 9,5:
          > > naudithaurft nu man bidjan brothruns ei galeithaina du izwis - I
          > > thought it necessary to ask the brothers to go to you.
          > >
          > > The adjective "thaurfts" appears at 1Cor 12,22 (masc.pl. thaurftai),
          > > meaning "necessary": thaurftai sind - they are necessary.
          > >
          > > In its weak masculine form it occurs at Mk 2,25 with a somewhat
          > > different meaning: thaurfta "needy", "in need".
          > >
          > > But "thaurfts" can also be a feminine i-stem noun, e.g. L 19,34:
          > > fraujin thaurfts this ist "the master needs it", lit. "there is a
          > > necessity to the master of it" (it being a colt/foal).
          > >
          > > So too can naudithaurfts, cf. chapter 2 of the Skeireins:
          > > naudithaurfts auk was jah gadob wistai du garehsn daupeinais
          > > andniman "For it was a necessity and in keeping with nature to
          > > receive the plan of baptism" (Marchand translation).
          > >
          > > So returning to the original question, I think "thaurfts nu faran
          > > ist" is quite acceptable Gothic too, but perhaps meaning "there is a
          > > need to travel" or "to go about", rather than "go" in the sense
          > > of "depart", though it's impossible to be definitive from just one
          > > attested example.
          > >
          > > To say "he needs to go", then might be: "thaurft(s) ist imma gaggan",
          > > or something like that, the -s being optional (depending on whether
          > > you treat it as a feminine noun or a neuter adjective). To say "we
          > > have to go", with this construction, just swap "imma" for "uns"
          > > or "unsis".
          > >
          > > That's my guess.
          > >
          > > Llama Nom
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a
          > > blank email to <gothic-l-unsubscribe@egroups.com>.
          > > Yahoo! Groups Links
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          >

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        • Giuseppe Pagliarulo
          ... From: matthew carver To: Sent: Monday, May 10, 2004 8:30 PM Subject: Re: [gothic-l] Re: Gothic
          Message 4 of 15 , May 10, 2004
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            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "matthew carver" <me@...>
            To: <gothic-l@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Monday, May 10, 2004 8:30 PM
            Subject: Re: [gothic-l] Re: Gothic equivalent for English 'must'

            > also there i believe is the possibility of
            > the construction "skulds ist (+DAT)"
            > meaning it is owing, lawful. Thaurfts
            > from tharf- has the meaning of necessity,
            > obligation. I thought these were impersonal
            > constructions requiring a dative. Where
            > does the phrase with thaurfts occur in the
            > gothic bible as a modal or auxiliary verb?

            Hails, Matthew and Llama,
            _thaurfts ist_ is attested in Luke 19:34, but not as an auxiliary
            verb: fraujin thaurfts ist this "the lord needs this" (literally
            "there is the need of this for the lord"). thaurfts is a -i
            substantive here.
            As you know, we do have instances of the similarly built adjectives
            _mahts_ and _skulds_ as predicates in phrases with _ist_ and in
            personal use. One example for all: the infamous _hvaiwa mahts ist
            manna altheis wisands gabairan_? in the Skeireins.

            Iosef Strawarila
          • Debbie Williams
            Does anyone know where to get a Gothic language dictionary? I would love to learn the language since I m also trying to pick up learning German & Norwegian.
            Message 5 of 15 , May 11, 2004
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              Does anyone know where to get a Gothic language dictionary? I would love to learn the language since I'm also trying to pick up learning German & Norwegian. Much thanks to anyone who can help.

              llama_nom <penterakt@...> wrote:
              >
              > > How would one say that one 'must' do something in Gothic?
              >
              > I think _skulan_ is a good equivalent of _must_.
              >
              > > Eg how would one translate, 'We must go now'.
              >
              > Skulum nu gaggan.
              >
              > > Nearest I could work out was 'Thaurfts nu faran ist',
              > > literally 'Necessary now to-go it-is.'
              >
              > Not exactly. Thaurfts ist (you'll note that -s is the masculine
              > ending) means that somebody is meant to, in need to do someting: sa
              > thaurfts ist gaggan = he is in need to go. You have to use the
              neuter
              > thaurft in order to convey impersonal meaning.
              >
              > Hope this helps
              >
              > Iosef Strawarila


              As you say, this is the simplest way:

              skulum nu gaggan - we should/must go/walk, let us go/walk

              Other possibilities:

              galeithan - go, depart
              usleithan - go out, depart, disappear
              afleithan - go, depart, leave (transitive or intransitive)
              afleithan aljath - go elsewhere, "be off"
              andqithan - say goodbye, take one's leave of, greet
              atgaggan - go/come (in a particular direction), approach, come down
              faran - go (attested just once in Gothic, L 10,7 in phrase "go from
              house to house")
              farjan - go by boat
              etc.

              And yes, "thaurft ist gaggan" seems reasonable for "it is necessary
              to go". The phrase isn't attested, as far as I know, but for the
              same construction with the synonymous "naudithaufts" see 2Cor 9,5:
              naudithaurft nu man bidjan brothruns ei galeithaina du izwis - I
              thought it necessary to ask the brothers to go to you.

              The adjective "thaurfts" appears at 1Cor 12,22 (masc.pl. thaurftai),
              meaning "necessary": thaurftai sind - they are necessary.

              In its weak masculine form it occurs at Mk 2,25 with a somewhat
              different meaning: thaurfta "needy", "in need".

              But "thaurfts" can also be a feminine i-stem noun, e.g. L 19,34:
              fraujin thaurfts this ist "the master needs it", lit. "there is a
              necessity to the master of it" (it being a colt/foal).

              So too can naudithaurfts, cf. chapter 2 of the Skeireins:
              naudithaurfts auk was jah gadob wistai du garehsn daupeinais
              andniman "For it was a necessity and in keeping with nature to
              receive the plan of baptism" (Marchand translation).

              So returning to the original question, I think "thaurfts nu faran
              ist" is quite acceptable Gothic too, but perhaps meaning "there is a
              need to travel" or "to go about", rather than "go" in the sense
              of "depart", though it's impossible to be definitive from just one
              attested example.

              To say "he needs to go", then might be: "thaurft(s) ist imma gaggan",
              or something like that, the -s being optional (depending on whether
              you treat it as a feminine noun or a neuter adjective). To say "we
              have to go", with this construction, just swap "imma" for "uns"
              or "unsis".

              That's my guess.

              Llama Nom



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            • Francisc Czobor
              As far as I know, te best Gothic dictionary available for free on the web is Koebler s Gotisches Woertebuch (Gothic - German/English/Greek/Latin, with
              Message 6 of 15 , May 13, 2004
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                As far as I know, te best Gothic dictionary available for free on the
                web is Koebler's "Gotisches Woertebuch" (Gothic -
                German/English/Greek/Latin, with German-Gothic, English-Gothic, Latin-
                Gothic and Greek-Gothic finder):
                http://homepage.uibk.ac.at/homepage/c303/c30310/gotwbhin.html
                Other, less elaborate Gothic dictionaries available freely on the web
                are:
                Wright's Gothic Glossary (Gothic-English):
                http://www.ling.upenn.edu/~kurisuto/germanic/goth_wright_glossary.html
                Eric Craven's Gothic-German Glossary:
                http://craven.hypermart.net/Gothic.txt
                (not accessible at this moment)
                Kunhihuzd (Tim O'Neill's page on Gothic names):
                http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Salon/2385/gothnames.html
                Crimean Gothic - English Glossary:
                http://www.geocities.com/erwan-ar-skoul/gothmod.htm
                I hope this helps.
                Best regards,
                Francisc


                --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Debbie Williams
                <corbeau_13_2000@y...> wrote:
                > Does anyone know where to get a Gothic language dictionary? I would
                love to learn the language since I'm also trying to pick up learning
                German & Norwegian. Much thanks to anyone who can help.
                >
                ]
              • llama_nom
                Hailai sijuth! And another alternative: nauths ist, literally there is a need , works the same way as: thaurfts ist (with thaurfts here being the noun). With
                Message 7 of 15 , May 13, 2004
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                  Hailai sijuth!

                  And another alternative: nauths ist, literally "there is a need",
                  works the same way as: thaurfts ist (with thaurfts here being the
                  noun). With each, the thing needed is genitive. As a verb, thaurban
                  = "need", while skulan = "must, shall", with implications of
                  obligation, but also used to make a compound future tense, where the
                  simple present might not be specific enough. Hey is everyone else
                  doing what I'm doing and typing some Gothic phrase into Google to
                  bypass the "Wulfila Project down for repairs" screen?

                  Skuld- (apart from being the past tense of skulan) is used in two
                  ways, with different meanings: 1) as an adjective, agreeing with the
                  nominative subject, and 2) impersonally as a neuter adjective +dat.

                  "PASSIVE" skulds ist +inf. "one must be"
                  "ACTIVE" skuld ist (+dat.) +inf. "one must" or "one is allowed to" or
                  more literally "it is permissible [for one] to"
                  ni skuld ist (+dat.) +inf. "it is not permissible [for one] to"

                  "Passive" and "active" might be slightly confusing labels, in the
                  context, but the examples should make it clear. For the former, see
                  L 9,44 skulds ist...atgiban "MUST BE handed over"; and for the latter
                  Mk 10,2 skuldu sijai mann qen afsatjan? "is a man ALLOWED TO divorce
                  his wife?" and 1Cor 6,15 skuld auk ist thata riurjo gahamon
                  unriurein "for that which is perishable MUST clothe itself with the
                  imperishable".

                  (This works even in 2 Cor 5,10, if you remember that ataugjan 'show'
                  has, when used passively, the special sense of "appear" as well
                  as "show oneself"--allai weis ataugjan skuldai sijum "we must all
                  appear".)

                  So with our hypothetical example: skulum galeithan "we should leave",
                  but: skuld ist unsis galeithan "we are allowed to leave", or to
                  reverse it: skuldai sijum bileithan "we must be left", and in the
                  past: skuldai wesum bileithan [fram im] "we should have been left [by
                  them]". Or to deny it: ni skuld ist unsis galeithan "we aren't
                  allowed to go", or if optional, ni thaurbum galeithan "we don't need
                  to go". To query: skuldu ist unsis galeithan? "are we allowed to
                  go?"; niu skuld ist? "aren't we allowed?"; skulumu galeithan "do we
                  have to go?"; or: ibai skulum galeithan "do we really have to go?"
                  Or if we just don't give a damn: ni waiht wulthrais ist unsis hwathar
                  galeithaima thau ni galeithaima "it's of no importance to us whether
                  we go or not!"

                  Llama Nom



                  --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "ashley overs"
                  <ashlovers_12344@h...> wrote:
                  > thanks it realy helps me.
                  >
                  >
                  > >From: matthew carver <me@m...>
                  > >Reply-To: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com
                  > >To: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com
                  > >Subject: Re: [gothic-l] Re: Gothic equivalent for English 'must'
                  > >Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 11:30:17 -0700
                  > >
                  > >hails!
                  > >
                  > >also there i believe is the possibility of
                  > >the construction "skulds ist (+DAT)"
                  > >meaning it is owing, lawful. Thaurfts
                  > >from tharf- has the meaning of necessity,
                  > >obligation. I thought these were impersonal
                  > >constructions requiring a dative. Where
                  > >does the phrase with thaurfts occur in the
                  > >gothic bible as a modal or auxiliary verb?
                  > >
                  > >-matthew
                  > >
                  > >On mandag, maj 10, 2004, at 09:11 , llama_nom wrote:
                  > >
                  > > >
                  > > >>
                  > > >>> How would one say that one 'must' do something in Gothic?
                  > > >>
                  > > >> I think _skulan_ is a good equivalent of _must_.
                  > > >>
                  > > >>> Eg how would one translate, 'We must go now'.
                  > > >>
                  > > >> Skulum nu gaggan.
                  > > >>
                  > > >>> Nearest I could work out was 'Thaurfts nu faran ist',
                  > > >>> literally 'Necessary now to-go it-is.'
                  > > >>
                  > > >> Not exactly. Thaurfts ist (you'll note that -s is the masculine
                  > > >> ending) means that somebody is meant to, in need to do
                  someting: sa
                  > > >> thaurfts ist gaggan = he is in need to go. You have to use the
                  > > > neuter
                  > > >> thaurft in order to convey impersonal meaning.
                  > > >>
                  > > >> Hope this helps
                  > > >>
                  > > >> Iosef Strawarila
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > As you say, this is the simplest way:
                  > > >
                  > > > skulum nu gaggan - we should/must go/walk, let us go/walk
                  > > >
                  > > > Other possibilities:
                  > > >
                  > > > galeithan - go, depart
                  > > > usleithan - go out, depart, disappear
                  > > > afleithan - go, depart, leave (transitive or intransitive)
                  > > > afleithan aljath - go elsewhere, "be off"
                  > > > andqithan - say goodbye, take one's leave of, greet
                  > > > atgaggan - go/come (in a particular direction), approach, come
                  down
                  > > > faran - go (attested just once in Gothic, L 10,7 in phrase "go
                  from
                  > > > house to house")
                  > > > farjan - go by boat
                  > > > etc.
                  > > >
                  > > > And yes, "thaurft ist gaggan" seems reasonable for "it is
                  necessary
                  > > > to go". The phrase isn't attested, as far as I know, but for
                  the
                  > > > same construction with the synonymous "naudithaufts" see 2Cor
                  9,5:
                  > > > naudithaurft nu man bidjan brothruns ei galeithaina du izwis - I
                  > > > thought it necessary to ask the brothers to go to you.
                  > > >
                  > > > The adjective "thaurfts" appears at 1Cor 12,22 (masc.pl.
                  thaurftai),
                  > > > meaning "necessary": thaurftai sind - they are necessary.
                  > > >
                  > > > In its weak masculine form it occurs at Mk 2,25 with a somewhat
                  > > > different meaning: thaurfta "needy", "in need".
                  > > >
                  > > > But "thaurfts" can also be a feminine i-stem noun, e.g. L 19,34:
                  > > > fraujin thaurfts this ist "the master needs it", lit. "there is
                  a
                  > > > necessity to the master of it" (it being a colt/foal).
                  > > >
                  > > > So too can naudithaurfts, cf. chapter 2 of the Skeireins:
                  > > > naudithaurfts auk was jah gadob wistai du garehsn daupeinais
                  > > > andniman "For it was a necessity and in keeping with nature to
                  > > > receive the plan of baptism" (Marchand translation).
                  > > >
                  > > > So returning to the original question, I think "thaurfts nu
                  faran
                  > > > ist" is quite acceptable Gothic too, but perhaps meaning "there
                  is a
                  > > > need to travel" or "to go about", rather than "go" in the sense
                  > > > of "depart", though it's impossible to be definitive from just
                  one
                  > > > attested example.
                  > > >
                  > > > To say "he needs to go", then might be: "thaurft(s) ist imma
                  gaggan",
                  > > > or something like that, the -s being optional (depending on
                  whether
                  > > > you treat it as a feminine noun or a neuter adjective). To
                  say "we
                  > > > have to go", with this construction, just swap "imma" for "uns"
                  > > > or "unsis".
                  > > >
                  > > > That's my guess.
                  > > >
                  > > > Llama Nom
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a
                  > > > blank email to <gothic-l-unsubscribe@egroups.com>.
                  > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > >
                  >
                  > _________________________________________________________________
                  > MSN Premium includes powerful parental controls and get 2 months
                  FREE*
                  > http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-
                  ca&page=byoa/prem&xAPID=1994&DI=1034&SU=http://hotmail.com/enca&HL=Mar
                  ket_MSNIS_Taglines
                • llama_nom
                  Here are some Gothic links which I ve found helpful and interesting, including some Francisc mentioned. I m surprised we don t have a selection of such links
                  Message 8 of 15 , May 13, 2004
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                    Here are some Gothic links which I've found helpful and interesting,
                    including some Francisc mentioned. I'm surprised we don't have a
                    selection of such links in the LINKS section of gothic-l. I'm not
                    quite sure how to add them though... Some other excellent addresses
                    not included here can be found at: http://www.reimar.de/gotisch.html

                    TEXTS

                    The Wulfila Project: online searchable Gothic corpus + online edition
                    of Streitberg's "Gotisches Elementarbuch" (minus the section on
                    Syntax, for copyright reasons...)
                    http://www.wulfila.be

                    The Skeireins Project: some of the smaller fragments of Gothic which
                    have survived, including the Skeireins + multiple translations:
                    http://germa.germsem.uni-kiel.de/gotisch/gotisch.html

                    Titus Project: huge collection of Indo-European texts, including the
                    Gothic corpus (click on "text database" in the right window)
                    http://titus.uni-frankfurt.de/indexe.htm


                    DICTIONARIES, etc.

                    Gerhard Koebler (Gothic and other dictionaries, including Old Norse,
                    Old Saxon, Old English, Old High German, Old Frisian, etc.)
                    http://www.koeblergerhard.de/publikat.html

                    Sean Christ's Indo-European Language Resources: a wealth of material
                    including Heyne's dictionary (Gothic-German), Balg's 'Comparative
                    Glossary of the Gothic Language', Wright's 'Grammar of the Gothic
                    Language' & Braune's 'Gotische Grammatik' + grammars and dictionaries
                    for Old Icelandic, Old English, and many more...
                    http://www.ling.upenn.edu/~kurisuto/germanic/language_resources.html

                    Gothic-German glossary (from Lehrbuch der Gotischen Sprache, Johannes
                    Friedrich) http://craven.hypermart.net/Gothic.txt

                    Gothic Names (Tim O'Neill: list of name elements, meanings and Old
                    English equivalents)
                    http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Salon/2385/gothnames.html

                    Crimean Gothic Wordlist
                    http://www.geocities.com/erwan-ar-skoul/gothmod.htm

                    My own still highly imperfect and constantly under revision English-
                    Gothic dictionary--use at your peril...
                    http://freespace.virgin.net/o.e/egd/egdhome.html


                    MODERN WRITING IN GOTHIC

                    The Gotish Tongue Website (Matthew Carver: poems, riddles,
                    Tolkien's "Bagme Bloma") http://www.stormloader.com/carver/gutrazda

                    The Gothic Heathen Homepage (Albareiks: history, religion, modern
                    poems in Gothic) http://www.angelfire.com/goth/kuni/


                    MISCELLANEOUS

                    Database of the Gothic Language (Manuscripts, digitising the Codex
                    Argenteus) http://www.cs.tut.fi/~dla/gothic.html

                    Reimar's Gothic Links (in German)
                    http://www.reimar.de/gotisch.html

                    Gothic Book List
                    http://www.the-orb-net/wemsk/gothicwemsk.html

                    Results for "Gothic" on MavicaNET Multilingual Search Catalog
                    http://www.mavicanet.com/directory/eng/1350.html?iss=0

                    A gentle "introduction to Gothic" with graded lessons by David Salo:
                    http://members.terracom.net/~dorothea/david/gothic/

                    ...and in German, adapted by Jens Vorbrink:
                    http://www.gotisch.de/


                    Hope there's something of use in amongst that lot...

                    Llama Nom



                    --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "Francisc Czobor" <fericzobor@y...>
                    wrote:
                    > As far as I know, te best Gothic dictionary available for free on
                    the
                    > web is Koebler's "Gotisches Woertebuch" (Gothic -
                    > German/English/Greek/Latin, with German-Gothic, English-Gothic,
                    Latin-
                    > Gothic and Greek-Gothic finder):
                    > http://homepage.uibk.ac.at/homepage/c303/c30310/gotwbhin.html
                    > Other, less elaborate Gothic dictionaries available freely on the
                    web
                    > are:
                    > Wright's Gothic Glossary (Gothic-English):
                    >
                    http://www.ling.upenn.edu/~kurisuto/germanic/goth_wright_glossary.html
                    > Eric Craven's Gothic-German Glossary:
                    > http://craven.hypermart.net/Gothic.txt
                    > (not accessible at this moment)
                    > Kunhihuzd (Tim O'Neill's page on Gothic names):
                    > http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Salon/2385/gothnames.html
                    > Crimean Gothic - English Glossary:
                    > http://www.geocities.com/erwan-ar-skoul/gothmod.htm
                    > I hope this helps.
                    > Best regards,
                    > Francisc
                    >
                    >
                    > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Debbie Williams
                    > <corbeau_13_2000@y...> wrote:
                    > > Does anyone know where to get a Gothic language dictionary? I
                    would
                    > love to learn the language since I'm also trying to pick up
                    learning
                    > German & Norwegian. Much thanks to anyone who can help.
                    > >
                    > ]
                  • faltin2001
                    ... I guess Gothic nauths is related to mod. German Not/Noetig , when we say es tut Not meaning it is necessary . ... Gothic thaurfts is probably
                    Message 9 of 15 , May 13, 2004
                    • 0 Attachment
                      --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <penterakt@f...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Hailai sijuth!
                      >
                      > And another alternative: nauths ist, literally "there is a need",



                      I guess Gothic 'nauths' is related to mod. German 'Not/Noetig', when
                      we say 'es tut Not' meaning 'it is necessary'.








                      > works the same way as: thaurfts ist (with thaurfts here being the
                      > noun).



                      Gothic 'thaurfts' is probably related to mod. German 'Be -
                      darf/Duerftig', which also indicates that something is necessary.



                      > Skuld- (apart from being the past tense of skulan) is used in two
                      > ways, with different meanings: 1) as an adjective, agreeing with
                      the
                      > nominative subject, and 2) impersonally as a neuter adjective +dat.
                      >
                      > "PASSIVE" skulds ist +inf. "one must be"
                      > "ACTIVE" skuld ist (+dat.) +inf. "one must" or "one is allowed to"
                      or
                      > more literally "it is permissible [for one] to"
                      > ni skuld ist (+dat.) +inf. "it is not permissible [for one] to"




                      Gothic 'skulds' is is probably related to mod. German 'Schuld'.


                      Just guessing around ...

                      Cheers
                      Dirk
                    • llama_nom
                      ... when ... Right on all counts, I think. Also, Skuld, the name of a norn... Llama Nom
                      Message 10 of 15 , May 14, 2004
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                        --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "faltin2001" <dirk@s...> wrote:

                        >
                        > I guess Gothic 'nauths' is related to mod. German 'Not/Noetig',
                        when
                        > we say 'es tut Not' meaning 'it is necessary'.
                        >
                        > Gothic 'thaurfts' is probably related to mod. German 'Be -
                        > darf/Duerftig', which also indicates that something is necessary.
                        >
                        > > Gothic 'skulds' is is probably related to mod. German 'Schuld'.

                        > Just guessing around ...
                        >
                        > Cheers
                        > Dirk

                        Right on all counts, I think. Also, Skuld, the name of a norn...

                        Llama Nom
                      • cheyenne nicole
                        llama_nom wrote: Here are some Gothic links which I ve found helpful and interesting, including some Francisc mentioned. I m surprised
                        Message 11 of 15 , May 16, 2004
                        • 0 Attachment
                          llama_nom <penterakt@...> wrote:
                          Here are some Gothic links which I've found helpful and interesting,
                          including some Francisc mentioned. I'm surprised we don't have a
                          selection of such links in the LINKS section of gothic-l. I'm not
                          quite sure how to add them though... Some other excellent addresses
                          not included here can be found at: http://www.reimar.de/gotisch.html

                          TEXTS

                          The Wulfila Project: online searchable Gothic corpus + online edition
                          of Streitberg's "Gotisches Elementarbuch" (minus the section on
                          Syntax, for copyright reasons...)
                          http://www.wulfila.be

                          The Skeireins Project: some of the smaller fragments of Gothic which
                          have survived, including the Skeireins + multiple translations:
                          http://germa.germsem.uni-kiel.de/gotisch/gotisch.html

                          Titus Project: huge collection of Indo-European texts, including the
                          Gothic corpus (click on "text database" in the right window)
                          http://titus.uni-frankfurt.de/indexe.htm


                          DICTIONARIES, etc.

                          Gerhard Koebler (Gothic and other dictionaries, including Old Norse,
                          Old Saxon, Old English, Old High German, Old Frisian, etc.)
                          http://www.koeblergerhard.de/publikat.html

                          Sean Christ's Indo-European Language Resources: a wealth of material
                          including Heyne's dictionary (Gothic-German), Balg's 'Comparative
                          Glossary of the Gothic Language', Wright's 'Grammar of the Gothic
                          Language' & Braune's 'Gotische Grammatik' + grammars and dictionaries
                          for Old Icelandic, Old English, and many more...
                          http://www.ling.upenn.edu/~kurisuto/germanic/language_resources.html

                          Gothic-German glossary (from Lehrbuch der Gotischen Sprache, Johannes
                          Friedrich) http://craven.hypermart.net/Gothic.txt

                          Gothic Names (Tim O'Neill: list of name elements, meanings and Old
                          English equivalents)
                          http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Salon/2385/gothnames.html

                          Crimean Gothic Wordlist
                          http://www.geocities.com/erwan-ar-skoul/gothmod.htm

                          My own still highly imperfect and constantly under revision English-
                          Gothic dictionary--use at your peril...
                          http://freespace.virgin.net/o.e/egd/egdhome.html


                          MODERN WRITING IN GOTHIC

                          The Gotish Tongue Website (Matthew Carver: poems, riddles,
                          Tolkien's "Bagme Bloma") http://www.stormloader.com/carver/gutrazda

                          The Gothic Heathen Homepage (Albareiks: history, religion, modern
                          poems in Gothic) http://www.angelfire.com/goth/kuni/


                          MISCELLANEOUS

                          Database of the Gothic Language (Manuscripts, digitising the Codex
                          Argenteus) http://www.cs.tut.fi/~dla/gothic.html

                          Reimar's Gothic Links (in German)
                          http://www.reimar.de/gotisch.html

                          Gothic Book List
                          http://www.the-orb-net/wemsk/gothicwemsk.html

                          Results for "Gothic" on MavicaNET Multilingual Search Catalog
                          http://www.mavicanet.com/directory/eng/1350.html?iss=0

                          A gentle "introduction to Gothic" with graded lessons by David Salo:
                          http://members.terracom.net/~dorothea/david/gothic/

                          ...and in German, adapted by Jens Vorbrink:
                          http://www.gotisch.de/


                          Hope there's something of use in amongst that lot...

                          Llama Nom



                          --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "Francisc Czobor"
                          wrote:
                          > As far as I know, te best Gothic dictionary available for free on
                          the
                          > web is Koebler's "Gotisches Woertebuch" (Gothic -
                          > German/English/Greek/Latin, with German-Gothic, English-Gothic,
                          Latin-
                          > Gothic and Greek-Gothic finder):
                          > http://homepage.uibk.ac.at/homepage/c303/c30310/gotwbhin.html
                          > Other, less elaborate Gothic dictionaries available freely on the
                          web
                          > are:
                          > Wright's Gothic Glossary (Gothic-English):
                          >
                          http://www.ling.upenn.edu/~kurisuto/germanic/goth_wright_glossary.html
                          > Eric Craven's Gothic-German Glossary:
                          > http://craven.hypermart.net/Gothic.txt
                          > (not accessible at this moment)
                          > Kunhihuzd (Tim O'Neill's page on Gothic names):
                          > http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Salon/2385/gothnames.html
                          > Crimean Gothic - English Glossary:
                          > http://www.geocities.com/erwan-ar-skoul/gothmod.htm
                          > I hope this helps.
                          > Best regards,
                          > Francisc
                          >
                          >
                          > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Debbie Williams
                          > wrote:
                          > > Does anyone know where to get a Gothic language dictionary? I
                          would
                          > love to learn the language since I'm also trying to pick up
                          learning
                          > German & Norwegian. Much thanks to anyone who can help.
                          > >
                          > ]




                          You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a blank email to .
                          Yahoo! Groups Links




                          Thank you for helping me,i don't get alot of help. This will help me alot.



                          Cheyenne

                          ---------------------------------
                          Do you Yahoo!?
                          SBC Yahoo! - Internet access at a great low price.

                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • llama_nom
                          And just when I thought I understood this, here is an alternate view on SKULD. In this article, SKULD, in the phrase _skuldu ist_, is characterised as
                          Message 12 of 15 , May 21, 2004
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                            And just when I thought I understood this, here is an alternate view
                            on SKULD. In this article, SKULD, in the phrase _skuldu ist_, is
                            characterised as belonging to a class of "predicate nouns with modal
                            meaning" - "Indo-European Syntactic Rules & Gothic Morphology", by
                            Vyacheslav V Ivanov, p. 11).

                            http://www.humnet.ucla.edu/pies/pdfs/IESV/1/VVI_Gothic_syntax.pdf

                            I'm not sure how you'd distinguish between a neuter noun and a neuter
                            adjective used in this way. Wright saw it as an adjective. Koebler
                            has the adjective SKULDS, but lists instances under the headword of
                            the verb SKULAN, of which SKULDS is the past participle. Though he
                            does have a noun *skuld, it is treated as strictly hypothetical.

                            Either way, an interesting article on Gothic & IE syntax.

                            Llama Nom



                            --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <penterakt@f...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Hailai sijuth!
                            >
                            > And another alternative: nauths ist, literally "there is a need",
                            > works the same way as: thaurfts ist (with thaurfts here being the
                            > noun). With each, the thing needed is genitive. As a verb,
                            thaurban
                            > = "need", while skulan = "must, shall", with implications of
                            > obligation, but also used to make a compound future tense, where
                            the
                            > simple present might not be specific enough. Hey is everyone else
                            > doing what I'm doing and typing some Gothic phrase into Google to
                            > bypass the "Wulfila Project down for repairs" screen?
                            >
                            > Skuld- (apart from being the past tense of skulan) is used in two
                            > ways, with different meanings: 1) as an adjective, agreeing with
                            the
                            > nominative subject, and 2) impersonally as a neuter adjective +dat.
                            >
                            > "PASSIVE" skulds ist +inf. "one must be"
                            > "ACTIVE" skuld ist (+dat.) +inf. "one must" or "one is allowed to"
                            or
                            > more literally "it is permissible [for one] to"
                            > ni skuld ist (+dat.) +inf. "it is not permissible [for one] to"
                            >
                            > "Passive" and "active" might be slightly confusing labels, in the
                            > context, but the examples should make it clear. For the former,
                            see
                            > L 9,44 skulds ist...atgiban "MUST BE handed over"; and for the
                            latter
                            > Mk 10,2 skuldu sijai mann qen afsatjan? "is a man ALLOWED TO
                            divorce
                            > his wife?" and 1Cor 6,15 skuld auk ist thata riurjo gahamon
                            > unriurein "for that which is perishable MUST clothe itself with the
                            > imperishable".
                            >
                            > (This works even in 2 Cor 5,10, if you remember that
                            ataugjan 'show'
                            > has, when used passively, the special sense of "appear" as well
                            > as "show oneself"--allai weis ataugjan skuldai sijum "we must all
                            > appear".)
                            >
                            > So with our hypothetical example: skulum galeithan "we should
                            leave",
                            > but: skuld ist unsis galeithan "we are allowed to leave", or to
                            > reverse it: skuldai sijum bileithan "we must be left", and in the
                            > past: skuldai wesum bileithan [fram im] "we should have been left
                            [by
                            > them]". Or to deny it: ni skuld ist unsis galeithan "we aren't
                            > allowed to go", or if optional, ni thaurbum galeithan "we don't
                            need
                            > to go". To query: skuldu ist unsis galeithan? "are we allowed to
                            > go?"; niu skuld ist? "aren't we allowed?"; skulumu galeithan "do we
                            > have to go?"; or: ibai skulum galeithan "do we really have to go?"
                            > Or if we just don't give a damn: ni waiht wulthrais ist unsis
                            hwathar
                            > galeithaima thau ni galeithaima "it's of no importance to us
                            whether
                            > we go or not!"
                            >
                            > Llama Nom
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "ashley overs"
                            > <ashlovers_12344@h...> wrote:
                            > > thanks it realy helps me.
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > >From: matthew carver <me@m...>
                            > > >Reply-To: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com
                            > > >To: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com
                            > > >Subject: Re: [gothic-l] Re: Gothic equivalent for English 'must'
                            > > >Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 11:30:17 -0700
                            > > >
                            > > >hails!
                            > > >
                            > > >also there i believe is the possibility of
                            > > >the construction "skulds ist (+DAT)"
                            > > >meaning it is owing, lawful. Thaurfts
                            > > >from tharf- has the meaning of necessity,
                            > > >obligation. I thought these were impersonal
                            > > >constructions requiring a dative. Where
                            > > >does the phrase with thaurfts occur in the
                            > > >gothic bible as a modal or auxiliary verb?
                            > > >
                            > > >-matthew
                            > > >
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