Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Gothic equivalent for English 'must'

Expand Messages
  • cern2004
    How would one say that one must do something in Gothic? Is there a cognate to English to have to , German mussen ? Eg how would one translate, We must go
    Message 1 of 15 , Apr 1, 2004
    • 0 Attachment
      How would one say that one 'must' do something in Gothic?

      Is there a cognate to English 'to have to', German 'mussen'?

      Eg how would one translate, 'We must go now'.

      Nearest I could work out was 'Thaurfts nu faran ist',
      literally 'Necessary now to-go it-is.'

      Thank you for any help.

      'Thiudharjis'.
    • Giuseppe Pagliarulo
      ... From: cern2004 To: Sent: Thursday, April 01, 2004 6:17 PM Subject: [gothic-l] Gothic equivalent for
      Message 2 of 15 , May 8 2:07 AM
      • 0 Attachment
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "cern2004" <nialr@...>
        To: <gothic-l@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Thursday, April 01, 2004 6:17 PM
        Subject: [gothic-l] Gothic equivalent for English 'must'


        > How would one say that one 'must' do something in Gothic?

        I think _skulan_ is a good equivalent of _must_.

        > Eg how would one translate, 'We must go now'.

        Skulum nu gaggan.

        > Nearest I could work out was 'Thaurfts nu faran ist',
        > literally 'Necessary now to-go it-is.'

        Not exactly. Thaurfts ist (you'll note that -s is the masculine
        ending) means that somebody is meant to, in need to do someting: sa
        thaurfts ist gaggan = he is in need to go. You have to use the neuter
        thaurft in order to convey impersonal meaning.

        Hope this helps

        Iosef Strawarila
      • ashley overs
        thanks it help ... _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the MSN Premium and get 2 months FREE*
        Message 3 of 15 , May 10 7:34 AM
        • 0 Attachment
          thanks it help


          >From: "Giuseppe Pagliarulo" <g.pagliarulo@...>
          >Reply-To: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com
          >To: <gothic-l@yahoogroups.com>
          >Subject: Re: [gothic-l] Gothic equivalent for English 'must'
          >Date: Sat, 8 May 2004 11:07:21 +0200
          >
          >
          >----- Original Message -----
          >From: "cern2004" <nialr@...>
          >To: <gothic-l@yahoogroups.com>
          >Sent: Thursday, April 01, 2004 6:17 PM
          >Subject: [gothic-l] Gothic equivalent for English 'must'
          >
          >
          > > How would one say that one 'must' do something in Gothic?
          >
          >I think _skulan_ is a good equivalent of _must_.
          >
          > > Eg how would one translate, 'We must go now'.
          >
          >Skulum nu gaggan.
          >
          > > Nearest I could work out was 'Thaurfts nu faran ist',
          > > literally 'Necessary now to-go it-is.'
          >
          >Not exactly. Thaurfts ist (you'll note that -s is the masculine
          >ending) means that somebody is meant to, in need to do someting: sa
          >thaurfts ist gaggan = he is in need to go. You have to use the neuter
          >thaurft in order to convey impersonal meaning.
          >
          >Hope this helps
          >
          >Iosef Strawarila
          >
          >

          _________________________________________________________________
          STOP MORE SPAM with the MSN Premium and get 2 months FREE*
          http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-ca&page=byoa/prem&xAPID=1994&DI=1034&SU=http://hotmail.com/enca&HL=Market_MSNIS_Taglines
        • llama_nom
          ... neuter ... As you say, this is the simplest way: skulum nu gaggan - we should/must go/walk, let us go/walk Other possibilities: galeithan - go, depart
          Message 4 of 15 , May 10 9:11 AM
          • 0 Attachment
            >
            > > How would one say that one 'must' do something in Gothic?
            >
            > I think _skulan_ is a good equivalent of _must_.
            >
            > > Eg how would one translate, 'We must go now'.
            >
            > Skulum nu gaggan.
            >
            > > Nearest I could work out was 'Thaurfts nu faran ist',
            > > literally 'Necessary now to-go it-is.'
            >
            > Not exactly. Thaurfts ist (you'll note that -s is the masculine
            > ending) means that somebody is meant to, in need to do someting: sa
            > thaurfts ist gaggan = he is in need to go. You have to use the
            neuter
            > thaurft in order to convey impersonal meaning.
            >
            > Hope this helps
            >
            > Iosef Strawarila


            As you say, this is the simplest way:

            skulum nu gaggan - we should/must go/walk, let us go/walk

            Other possibilities:

            galeithan - go, depart
            usleithan - go out, depart, disappear
            afleithan - go, depart, leave (transitive or intransitive)
            afleithan aljath - go elsewhere, "be off"
            andqithan - say goodbye, take one's leave of, greet
            atgaggan - go/come (in a particular direction), approach, come down
            faran - go (attested just once in Gothic, L 10,7 in phrase "go from
            house to house")
            farjan - go by boat
            etc.

            And yes, "thaurft ist gaggan" seems reasonable for "it is necessary
            to go". The phrase isn't attested, as far as I know, but for the
            same construction with the synonymous "naudithaufts" see 2Cor 9,5:
            naudithaurft nu man bidjan brothruns ei galeithaina du izwis - I
            thought it necessary to ask the brothers to go to you.

            The adjective "thaurfts" appears at 1Cor 12,22 (masc.pl. thaurftai),
            meaning "necessary": thaurftai sind - they are necessary.

            In its weak masculine form it occurs at Mk 2,25 with a somewhat
            different meaning: thaurfta "needy", "in need".

            But "thaurfts" can also be a feminine i-stem noun, e.g. L 19,34:
            fraujin thaurfts this ist "the master needs it", lit. "there is a
            necessity to the master of it" (it being a colt/foal).

            So too can naudithaurfts, cf. chapter 2 of the Skeireins:
            naudithaurfts auk was jah gadob wistai du garehsn daupeinais
            andniman "For it was a necessity and in keeping with nature to
            receive the plan of baptism" (Marchand translation).

            So returning to the original question, I think "thaurfts nu faran
            ist" is quite acceptable Gothic too, but perhaps meaning "there is a
            need to travel" or "to go about", rather than "go" in the sense
            of "depart", though it's impossible to be definitive from just one
            attested example.

            To say "he needs to go", then might be: "thaurft(s) ist imma gaggan",
            or something like that, the -s being optional (depending on whether
            you treat it as a feminine noun or a neuter adjective). To say "we
            have to go", with this construction, just swap "imma" for "uns"
            or "unsis".

            That's my guess.

            Llama Nom
          • matthew carver
            hails! also there i believe is the possibility of the construction skulds ist (+DAT) meaning it is owing, lawful. Thaurfts from tharf- has the meaning of
            Message 5 of 15 , May 10 11:30 AM
            • 0 Attachment
              hails!

              also there i believe is the possibility of
              the construction "skulds ist (+DAT)"
              meaning it is owing, lawful. Thaurfts
              from tharf- has the meaning of necessity,
              obligation. I thought these were impersonal
              constructions requiring a dative. Where
              does the phrase with thaurfts occur in the
              gothic bible as a modal or auxiliary verb?

              -matthew

              On mandag, maj 10, 2004, at 09:11 , llama_nom wrote:

              >
              >>
              >>> How would one say that one 'must' do something in Gothic?
              >>
              >> I think _skulan_ is a good equivalent of _must_.
              >>
              >>> Eg how would one translate, 'We must go now'.
              >>
              >> Skulum nu gaggan.
              >>
              >>> Nearest I could work out was 'Thaurfts nu faran ist',
              >>> literally 'Necessary now to-go it-is.'
              >>
              >> Not exactly. Thaurfts ist (you'll note that -s is the masculine
              >> ending) means that somebody is meant to, in need to do someting: sa
              >> thaurfts ist gaggan = he is in need to go. You have to use the
              > neuter
              >> thaurft in order to convey impersonal meaning.
              >>
              >> Hope this helps
              >>
              >> Iosef Strawarila
              >
              >
              > As you say, this is the simplest way:
              >
              > skulum nu gaggan - we should/must go/walk, let us go/walk
              >
              > Other possibilities:
              >
              > galeithan - go, depart
              > usleithan - go out, depart, disappear
              > afleithan - go, depart, leave (transitive or intransitive)
              > afleithan aljath - go elsewhere, "be off"
              > andqithan - say goodbye, take one's leave of, greet
              > atgaggan - go/come (in a particular direction), approach, come down
              > faran - go (attested just once in Gothic, L 10,7 in phrase "go from
              > house to house")
              > farjan - go by boat
              > etc.
              >
              > And yes, "thaurft ist gaggan" seems reasonable for "it is necessary
              > to go". The phrase isn't attested, as far as I know, but for the
              > same construction with the synonymous "naudithaufts" see 2Cor 9,5:
              > naudithaurft nu man bidjan brothruns ei galeithaina du izwis - I
              > thought it necessary to ask the brothers to go to you.
              >
              > The adjective "thaurfts" appears at 1Cor 12,22 (masc.pl. thaurftai),
              > meaning "necessary": thaurftai sind - they are necessary.
              >
              > In its weak masculine form it occurs at Mk 2,25 with a somewhat
              > different meaning: thaurfta "needy", "in need".
              >
              > But "thaurfts" can also be a feminine i-stem noun, e.g. L 19,34:
              > fraujin thaurfts this ist "the master needs it", lit. "there is a
              > necessity to the master of it" (it being a colt/foal).
              >
              > So too can naudithaurfts, cf. chapter 2 of the Skeireins:
              > naudithaurfts auk was jah gadob wistai du garehsn daupeinais
              > andniman "For it was a necessity and in keeping with nature to
              > receive the plan of baptism" (Marchand translation).
              >
              > So returning to the original question, I think "thaurfts nu faran
              > ist" is quite acceptable Gothic too, but perhaps meaning "there is a
              > need to travel" or "to go about", rather than "go" in the sense
              > of "depart", though it's impossible to be definitive from just one
              > attested example.
              >
              > To say "he needs to go", then might be: "thaurft(s) ist imma gaggan",
              > or something like that, the -s being optional (depending on whether
              > you treat it as a feminine noun or a neuter adjective). To say "we
              > have to go", with this construction, just swap "imma" for "uns"
              > or "unsis".
              >
              > That's my guess.
              >
              > Llama Nom
              >
              >
              >
              > You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a
              > blank email to <gothic-l-unsubscribe@egroups.com>.
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
            • ashley overs
              thanks it realy helps me. ... _________________________________________________________________ MSN Premium includes powerful parental controls and get 2
              Message 6 of 15 , May 10 2:25 PM
              • 0 Attachment
                thanks it realy helps me.


                >From: matthew carver <me@...>
                >Reply-To: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com
                >To: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com
                >Subject: Re: [gothic-l] Re: Gothic equivalent for English 'must'
                >Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 11:30:17 -0700
                >
                >hails!
                >
                >also there i believe is the possibility of
                >the construction "skulds ist (+DAT)"
                >meaning it is owing, lawful. Thaurfts
                >from tharf- has the meaning of necessity,
                >obligation. I thought these were impersonal
                >constructions requiring a dative. Where
                >does the phrase with thaurfts occur in the
                >gothic bible as a modal or auxiliary verb?
                >
                >-matthew
                >
                >On mandag, maj 10, 2004, at 09:11 , llama_nom wrote:
                >
                > >
                > >>
                > >>> How would one say that one 'must' do something in Gothic?
                > >>
                > >> I think _skulan_ is a good equivalent of _must_.
                > >>
                > >>> Eg how would one translate, 'We must go now'.
                > >>
                > >> Skulum nu gaggan.
                > >>
                > >>> Nearest I could work out was 'Thaurfts nu faran ist',
                > >>> literally 'Necessary now to-go it-is.'
                > >>
                > >> Not exactly. Thaurfts ist (you'll note that -s is the masculine
                > >> ending) means that somebody is meant to, in need to do someting: sa
                > >> thaurfts ist gaggan = he is in need to go. You have to use the
                > > neuter
                > >> thaurft in order to convey impersonal meaning.
                > >>
                > >> Hope this helps
                > >>
                > >> Iosef Strawarila
                > >
                > >
                > > As you say, this is the simplest way:
                > >
                > > skulum nu gaggan - we should/must go/walk, let us go/walk
                > >
                > > Other possibilities:
                > >
                > > galeithan - go, depart
                > > usleithan - go out, depart, disappear
                > > afleithan - go, depart, leave (transitive or intransitive)
                > > afleithan aljath - go elsewhere, "be off"
                > > andqithan - say goodbye, take one's leave of, greet
                > > atgaggan - go/come (in a particular direction), approach, come down
                > > faran - go (attested just once in Gothic, L 10,7 in phrase "go from
                > > house to house")
                > > farjan - go by boat
                > > etc.
                > >
                > > And yes, "thaurft ist gaggan" seems reasonable for "it is necessary
                > > to go". The phrase isn't attested, as far as I know, but for the
                > > same construction with the synonymous "naudithaufts" see 2Cor 9,5:
                > > naudithaurft nu man bidjan brothruns ei galeithaina du izwis - I
                > > thought it necessary to ask the brothers to go to you.
                > >
                > > The adjective "thaurfts" appears at 1Cor 12,22 (masc.pl. thaurftai),
                > > meaning "necessary": thaurftai sind - they are necessary.
                > >
                > > In its weak masculine form it occurs at Mk 2,25 with a somewhat
                > > different meaning: thaurfta "needy", "in need".
                > >
                > > But "thaurfts" can also be a feminine i-stem noun, e.g. L 19,34:
                > > fraujin thaurfts this ist "the master needs it", lit. "there is a
                > > necessity to the master of it" (it being a colt/foal).
                > >
                > > So too can naudithaurfts, cf. chapter 2 of the Skeireins:
                > > naudithaurfts auk was jah gadob wistai du garehsn daupeinais
                > > andniman "For it was a necessity and in keeping with nature to
                > > receive the plan of baptism" (Marchand translation).
                > >
                > > So returning to the original question, I think "thaurfts nu faran
                > > ist" is quite acceptable Gothic too, but perhaps meaning "there is a
                > > need to travel" or "to go about", rather than "go" in the sense
                > > of "depart", though it's impossible to be definitive from just one
                > > attested example.
                > >
                > > To say "he needs to go", then might be: "thaurft(s) ist imma gaggan",
                > > or something like that, the -s being optional (depending on whether
                > > you treat it as a feminine noun or a neuter adjective). To say "we
                > > have to go", with this construction, just swap "imma" for "uns"
                > > or "unsis".
                > >
                > > That's my guess.
                > >
                > > Llama Nom
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a
                > > blank email to <gothic-l-unsubscribe@egroups.com>.
                > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                >

                _________________________________________________________________
                MSN Premium includes powerful parental controls and get 2 months FREE*
                http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-ca&page=byoa/prem&xAPID=1994&DI=1034&SU=http://hotmail.com/enca&HL=Market_MSNIS_Taglines
              • Giuseppe Pagliarulo
                ... From: matthew carver To: Sent: Monday, May 10, 2004 8:30 PM Subject: Re: [gothic-l] Re: Gothic
                Message 7 of 15 , May 10 3:39 PM
                • 0 Attachment
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "matthew carver" <me@...>
                  To: <gothic-l@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Monday, May 10, 2004 8:30 PM
                  Subject: Re: [gothic-l] Re: Gothic equivalent for English 'must'

                  > also there i believe is the possibility of
                  > the construction "skulds ist (+DAT)"
                  > meaning it is owing, lawful. Thaurfts
                  > from tharf- has the meaning of necessity,
                  > obligation. I thought these were impersonal
                  > constructions requiring a dative. Where
                  > does the phrase with thaurfts occur in the
                  > gothic bible as a modal or auxiliary verb?

                  Hails, Matthew and Llama,
                  _thaurfts ist_ is attested in Luke 19:34, but not as an auxiliary
                  verb: fraujin thaurfts ist this "the lord needs this" (literally
                  "there is the need of this for the lord"). thaurfts is a -i
                  substantive here.
                  As you know, we do have instances of the similarly built adjectives
                  _mahts_ and _skulds_ as predicates in phrases with _ist_ and in
                  personal use. One example for all: the infamous _hvaiwa mahts ist
                  manna altheis wisands gabairan_? in the Skeireins.

                  Iosef Strawarila
                • Debbie Williams
                  Does anyone know where to get a Gothic language dictionary? I would love to learn the language since I m also trying to pick up learning German & Norwegian.
                  Message 8 of 15 , May 11 1:09 PM
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Does anyone know where to get a Gothic language dictionary? I would love to learn the language since I'm also trying to pick up learning German & Norwegian. Much thanks to anyone who can help.

                    llama_nom <penterakt@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > > How would one say that one 'must' do something in Gothic?
                    >
                    > I think _skulan_ is a good equivalent of _must_.
                    >
                    > > Eg how would one translate, 'We must go now'.
                    >
                    > Skulum nu gaggan.
                    >
                    > > Nearest I could work out was 'Thaurfts nu faran ist',
                    > > literally 'Necessary now to-go it-is.'
                    >
                    > Not exactly. Thaurfts ist (you'll note that -s is the masculine
                    > ending) means that somebody is meant to, in need to do someting: sa
                    > thaurfts ist gaggan = he is in need to go. You have to use the
                    neuter
                    > thaurft in order to convey impersonal meaning.
                    >
                    > Hope this helps
                    >
                    > Iosef Strawarila


                    As you say, this is the simplest way:

                    skulum nu gaggan - we should/must go/walk, let us go/walk

                    Other possibilities:

                    galeithan - go, depart
                    usleithan - go out, depart, disappear
                    afleithan - go, depart, leave (transitive or intransitive)
                    afleithan aljath - go elsewhere, "be off"
                    andqithan - say goodbye, take one's leave of, greet
                    atgaggan - go/come (in a particular direction), approach, come down
                    faran - go (attested just once in Gothic, L 10,7 in phrase "go from
                    house to house")
                    farjan - go by boat
                    etc.

                    And yes, "thaurft ist gaggan" seems reasonable for "it is necessary
                    to go". The phrase isn't attested, as far as I know, but for the
                    same construction with the synonymous "naudithaufts" see 2Cor 9,5:
                    naudithaurft nu man bidjan brothruns ei galeithaina du izwis - I
                    thought it necessary to ask the brothers to go to you.

                    The adjective "thaurfts" appears at 1Cor 12,22 (masc.pl. thaurftai),
                    meaning "necessary": thaurftai sind - they are necessary.

                    In its weak masculine form it occurs at Mk 2,25 with a somewhat
                    different meaning: thaurfta "needy", "in need".

                    But "thaurfts" can also be a feminine i-stem noun, e.g. L 19,34:
                    fraujin thaurfts this ist "the master needs it", lit. "there is a
                    necessity to the master of it" (it being a colt/foal).

                    So too can naudithaurfts, cf. chapter 2 of the Skeireins:
                    naudithaurfts auk was jah gadob wistai du garehsn daupeinais
                    andniman "For it was a necessity and in keeping with nature to
                    receive the plan of baptism" (Marchand translation).

                    So returning to the original question, I think "thaurfts nu faran
                    ist" is quite acceptable Gothic too, but perhaps meaning "there is a
                    need to travel" or "to go about", rather than "go" in the sense
                    of "depart", though it's impossible to be definitive from just one
                    attested example.

                    To say "he needs to go", then might be: "thaurft(s) ist imma gaggan",
                    or something like that, the -s being optional (depending on whether
                    you treat it as a feminine noun or a neuter adjective). To say "we
                    have to go", with this construction, just swap "imma" for "uns"
                    or "unsis".

                    That's my guess.

                    Llama Nom



                    You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a blank email to <gothic-l-unsubscribe@egroups.com>.



                    ---------------------------------
                    Yahoo! Groups Links

                    To visit your group on the web, go to:
                    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gothic-l/

                    To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                    gothic-l-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

                    Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.




                    ---------------------------------
                    Do you Yahoo!?
                    Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Francisc Czobor
                    As far as I know, te best Gothic dictionary available for free on the web is Koebler s Gotisches Woertebuch (Gothic - German/English/Greek/Latin, with
                    Message 9 of 15 , May 13 12:33 AM
                    • 0 Attachment
                      As far as I know, te best Gothic dictionary available for free on the
                      web is Koebler's "Gotisches Woertebuch" (Gothic -
                      German/English/Greek/Latin, with German-Gothic, English-Gothic, Latin-
                      Gothic and Greek-Gothic finder):
                      http://homepage.uibk.ac.at/homepage/c303/c30310/gotwbhin.html
                      Other, less elaborate Gothic dictionaries available freely on the web
                      are:
                      Wright's Gothic Glossary (Gothic-English):
                      http://www.ling.upenn.edu/~kurisuto/germanic/goth_wright_glossary.html
                      Eric Craven's Gothic-German Glossary:
                      http://craven.hypermart.net/Gothic.txt
                      (not accessible at this moment)
                      Kunhihuzd (Tim O'Neill's page on Gothic names):
                      http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Salon/2385/gothnames.html
                      Crimean Gothic - English Glossary:
                      http://www.geocities.com/erwan-ar-skoul/gothmod.htm
                      I hope this helps.
                      Best regards,
                      Francisc


                      --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Debbie Williams
                      <corbeau_13_2000@y...> wrote:
                      > Does anyone know where to get a Gothic language dictionary? I would
                      love to learn the language since I'm also trying to pick up learning
                      German & Norwegian. Much thanks to anyone who can help.
                      >
                      ]
                    • llama_nom
                      Hailai sijuth! And another alternative: nauths ist, literally there is a need , works the same way as: thaurfts ist (with thaurfts here being the noun). With
                      Message 10 of 15 , May 13 3:47 AM
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Hailai sijuth!

                        And another alternative: nauths ist, literally "there is a need",
                        works the same way as: thaurfts ist (with thaurfts here being the
                        noun). With each, the thing needed is genitive. As a verb, thaurban
                        = "need", while skulan = "must, shall", with implications of
                        obligation, but also used to make a compound future tense, where the
                        simple present might not be specific enough. Hey is everyone else
                        doing what I'm doing and typing some Gothic phrase into Google to
                        bypass the "Wulfila Project down for repairs" screen?

                        Skuld- (apart from being the past tense of skulan) is used in two
                        ways, with different meanings: 1) as an adjective, agreeing with the
                        nominative subject, and 2) impersonally as a neuter adjective +dat.

                        "PASSIVE" skulds ist +inf. "one must be"
                        "ACTIVE" skuld ist (+dat.) +inf. "one must" or "one is allowed to" or
                        more literally "it is permissible [for one] to"
                        ni skuld ist (+dat.) +inf. "it is not permissible [for one] to"

                        "Passive" and "active" might be slightly confusing labels, in the
                        context, but the examples should make it clear. For the former, see
                        L 9,44 skulds ist...atgiban "MUST BE handed over"; and for the latter
                        Mk 10,2 skuldu sijai mann qen afsatjan? "is a man ALLOWED TO divorce
                        his wife?" and 1Cor 6,15 skuld auk ist thata riurjo gahamon
                        unriurein "for that which is perishable MUST clothe itself with the
                        imperishable".

                        (This works even in 2 Cor 5,10, if you remember that ataugjan 'show'
                        has, when used passively, the special sense of "appear" as well
                        as "show oneself"--allai weis ataugjan skuldai sijum "we must all
                        appear".)

                        So with our hypothetical example: skulum galeithan "we should leave",
                        but: skuld ist unsis galeithan "we are allowed to leave", or to
                        reverse it: skuldai sijum bileithan "we must be left", and in the
                        past: skuldai wesum bileithan [fram im] "we should have been left [by
                        them]". Or to deny it: ni skuld ist unsis galeithan "we aren't
                        allowed to go", or if optional, ni thaurbum galeithan "we don't need
                        to go". To query: skuldu ist unsis galeithan? "are we allowed to
                        go?"; niu skuld ist? "aren't we allowed?"; skulumu galeithan "do we
                        have to go?"; or: ibai skulum galeithan "do we really have to go?"
                        Or if we just don't give a damn: ni waiht wulthrais ist unsis hwathar
                        galeithaima thau ni galeithaima "it's of no importance to us whether
                        we go or not!"

                        Llama Nom



                        --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "ashley overs"
                        <ashlovers_12344@h...> wrote:
                        > thanks it realy helps me.
                        >
                        >
                        > >From: matthew carver <me@m...>
                        > >Reply-To: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com
                        > >To: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com
                        > >Subject: Re: [gothic-l] Re: Gothic equivalent for English 'must'
                        > >Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 11:30:17 -0700
                        > >
                        > >hails!
                        > >
                        > >also there i believe is the possibility of
                        > >the construction "skulds ist (+DAT)"
                        > >meaning it is owing, lawful. Thaurfts
                        > >from tharf- has the meaning of necessity,
                        > >obligation. I thought these were impersonal
                        > >constructions requiring a dative. Where
                        > >does the phrase with thaurfts occur in the
                        > >gothic bible as a modal or auxiliary verb?
                        > >
                        > >-matthew
                        > >
                        > >On mandag, maj 10, 2004, at 09:11 , llama_nom wrote:
                        > >
                        > > >
                        > > >>
                        > > >>> How would one say that one 'must' do something in Gothic?
                        > > >>
                        > > >> I think _skulan_ is a good equivalent of _must_.
                        > > >>
                        > > >>> Eg how would one translate, 'We must go now'.
                        > > >>
                        > > >> Skulum nu gaggan.
                        > > >>
                        > > >>> Nearest I could work out was 'Thaurfts nu faran ist',
                        > > >>> literally 'Necessary now to-go it-is.'
                        > > >>
                        > > >> Not exactly. Thaurfts ist (you'll note that -s is the masculine
                        > > >> ending) means that somebody is meant to, in need to do
                        someting: sa
                        > > >> thaurfts ist gaggan = he is in need to go. You have to use the
                        > > > neuter
                        > > >> thaurft in order to convey impersonal meaning.
                        > > >>
                        > > >> Hope this helps
                        > > >>
                        > > >> Iosef Strawarila
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > As you say, this is the simplest way:
                        > > >
                        > > > skulum nu gaggan - we should/must go/walk, let us go/walk
                        > > >
                        > > > Other possibilities:
                        > > >
                        > > > galeithan - go, depart
                        > > > usleithan - go out, depart, disappear
                        > > > afleithan - go, depart, leave (transitive or intransitive)
                        > > > afleithan aljath - go elsewhere, "be off"
                        > > > andqithan - say goodbye, take one's leave of, greet
                        > > > atgaggan - go/come (in a particular direction), approach, come
                        down
                        > > > faran - go (attested just once in Gothic, L 10,7 in phrase "go
                        from
                        > > > house to house")
                        > > > farjan - go by boat
                        > > > etc.
                        > > >
                        > > > And yes, "thaurft ist gaggan" seems reasonable for "it is
                        necessary
                        > > > to go". The phrase isn't attested, as far as I know, but for
                        the
                        > > > same construction with the synonymous "naudithaufts" see 2Cor
                        9,5:
                        > > > naudithaurft nu man bidjan brothruns ei galeithaina du izwis - I
                        > > > thought it necessary to ask the brothers to go to you.
                        > > >
                        > > > The adjective "thaurfts" appears at 1Cor 12,22 (masc.pl.
                        thaurftai),
                        > > > meaning "necessary": thaurftai sind - they are necessary.
                        > > >
                        > > > In its weak masculine form it occurs at Mk 2,25 with a somewhat
                        > > > different meaning: thaurfta "needy", "in need".
                        > > >
                        > > > But "thaurfts" can also be a feminine i-stem noun, e.g. L 19,34:
                        > > > fraujin thaurfts this ist "the master needs it", lit. "there is
                        a
                        > > > necessity to the master of it" (it being a colt/foal).
                        > > >
                        > > > So too can naudithaurfts, cf. chapter 2 of the Skeireins:
                        > > > naudithaurfts auk was jah gadob wistai du garehsn daupeinais
                        > > > andniman "For it was a necessity and in keeping with nature to
                        > > > receive the plan of baptism" (Marchand translation).
                        > > >
                        > > > So returning to the original question, I think "thaurfts nu
                        faran
                        > > > ist" is quite acceptable Gothic too, but perhaps meaning "there
                        is a
                        > > > need to travel" or "to go about", rather than "go" in the sense
                        > > > of "depart", though it's impossible to be definitive from just
                        one
                        > > > attested example.
                        > > >
                        > > > To say "he needs to go", then might be: "thaurft(s) ist imma
                        gaggan",
                        > > > or something like that, the -s being optional (depending on
                        whether
                        > > > you treat it as a feminine noun or a neuter adjective). To
                        say "we
                        > > > have to go", with this construction, just swap "imma" for "uns"
                        > > > or "unsis".
                        > > >
                        > > > That's my guess.
                        > > >
                        > > > Llama Nom
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a
                        > > > blank email to <gothic-l-unsubscribe@egroups.com>.
                        > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        >
                        > _________________________________________________________________
                        > MSN Premium includes powerful parental controls and get 2 months
                        FREE*
                        > http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-
                        ca&page=byoa/prem&xAPID=1994&DI=1034&SU=http://hotmail.com/enca&HL=Mar
                        ket_MSNIS_Taglines
                      • llama_nom
                        Here are some Gothic links which I ve found helpful and interesting, including some Francisc mentioned. I m surprised we don t have a selection of such links
                        Message 11 of 15 , May 13 4:43 AM
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Here are some Gothic links which I've found helpful and interesting,
                          including some Francisc mentioned. I'm surprised we don't have a
                          selection of such links in the LINKS section of gothic-l. I'm not
                          quite sure how to add them though... Some other excellent addresses
                          not included here can be found at: http://www.reimar.de/gotisch.html

                          TEXTS

                          The Wulfila Project: online searchable Gothic corpus + online edition
                          of Streitberg's "Gotisches Elementarbuch" (minus the section on
                          Syntax, for copyright reasons...)
                          http://www.wulfila.be

                          The Skeireins Project: some of the smaller fragments of Gothic which
                          have survived, including the Skeireins + multiple translations:
                          http://germa.germsem.uni-kiel.de/gotisch/gotisch.html

                          Titus Project: huge collection of Indo-European texts, including the
                          Gothic corpus (click on "text database" in the right window)
                          http://titus.uni-frankfurt.de/indexe.htm


                          DICTIONARIES, etc.

                          Gerhard Koebler (Gothic and other dictionaries, including Old Norse,
                          Old Saxon, Old English, Old High German, Old Frisian, etc.)
                          http://www.koeblergerhard.de/publikat.html

                          Sean Christ's Indo-European Language Resources: a wealth of material
                          including Heyne's dictionary (Gothic-German), Balg's 'Comparative
                          Glossary of the Gothic Language', Wright's 'Grammar of the Gothic
                          Language' & Braune's 'Gotische Grammatik' + grammars and dictionaries
                          for Old Icelandic, Old English, and many more...
                          http://www.ling.upenn.edu/~kurisuto/germanic/language_resources.html

                          Gothic-German glossary (from Lehrbuch der Gotischen Sprache, Johannes
                          Friedrich) http://craven.hypermart.net/Gothic.txt

                          Gothic Names (Tim O'Neill: list of name elements, meanings and Old
                          English equivalents)
                          http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Salon/2385/gothnames.html

                          Crimean Gothic Wordlist
                          http://www.geocities.com/erwan-ar-skoul/gothmod.htm

                          My own still highly imperfect and constantly under revision English-
                          Gothic dictionary--use at your peril...
                          http://freespace.virgin.net/o.e/egd/egdhome.html


                          MODERN WRITING IN GOTHIC

                          The Gotish Tongue Website (Matthew Carver: poems, riddles,
                          Tolkien's "Bagme Bloma") http://www.stormloader.com/carver/gutrazda

                          The Gothic Heathen Homepage (Albareiks: history, religion, modern
                          poems in Gothic) http://www.angelfire.com/goth/kuni/


                          MISCELLANEOUS

                          Database of the Gothic Language (Manuscripts, digitising the Codex
                          Argenteus) http://www.cs.tut.fi/~dla/gothic.html

                          Reimar's Gothic Links (in German)
                          http://www.reimar.de/gotisch.html

                          Gothic Book List
                          http://www.the-orb-net/wemsk/gothicwemsk.html

                          Results for "Gothic" on MavicaNET Multilingual Search Catalog
                          http://www.mavicanet.com/directory/eng/1350.html?iss=0

                          A gentle "introduction to Gothic" with graded lessons by David Salo:
                          http://members.terracom.net/~dorothea/david/gothic/

                          ...and in German, adapted by Jens Vorbrink:
                          http://www.gotisch.de/


                          Hope there's something of use in amongst that lot...

                          Llama Nom



                          --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "Francisc Czobor" <fericzobor@y...>
                          wrote:
                          > As far as I know, te best Gothic dictionary available for free on
                          the
                          > web is Koebler's "Gotisches Woertebuch" (Gothic -
                          > German/English/Greek/Latin, with German-Gothic, English-Gothic,
                          Latin-
                          > Gothic and Greek-Gothic finder):
                          > http://homepage.uibk.ac.at/homepage/c303/c30310/gotwbhin.html
                          > Other, less elaborate Gothic dictionaries available freely on the
                          web
                          > are:
                          > Wright's Gothic Glossary (Gothic-English):
                          >
                          http://www.ling.upenn.edu/~kurisuto/germanic/goth_wright_glossary.html
                          > Eric Craven's Gothic-German Glossary:
                          > http://craven.hypermart.net/Gothic.txt
                          > (not accessible at this moment)
                          > Kunhihuzd (Tim O'Neill's page on Gothic names):
                          > http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Salon/2385/gothnames.html
                          > Crimean Gothic - English Glossary:
                          > http://www.geocities.com/erwan-ar-skoul/gothmod.htm
                          > I hope this helps.
                          > Best regards,
                          > Francisc
                          >
                          >
                          > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Debbie Williams
                          > <corbeau_13_2000@y...> wrote:
                          > > Does anyone know where to get a Gothic language dictionary? I
                          would
                          > love to learn the language since I'm also trying to pick up
                          learning
                          > German & Norwegian. Much thanks to anyone who can help.
                          > >
                          > ]
                        • faltin2001
                          ... I guess Gothic nauths is related to mod. German Not/Noetig , when we say es tut Not meaning it is necessary . ... Gothic thaurfts is probably
                          Message 12 of 15 , May 13 6:37 AM
                          • 0 Attachment
                            --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <penterakt@f...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Hailai sijuth!
                            >
                            > And another alternative: nauths ist, literally "there is a need",



                            I guess Gothic 'nauths' is related to mod. German 'Not/Noetig', when
                            we say 'es tut Not' meaning 'it is necessary'.








                            > works the same way as: thaurfts ist (with thaurfts here being the
                            > noun).



                            Gothic 'thaurfts' is probably related to mod. German 'Be -
                            darf/Duerftig', which also indicates that something is necessary.



                            > Skuld- (apart from being the past tense of skulan) is used in two
                            > ways, with different meanings: 1) as an adjective, agreeing with
                            the
                            > nominative subject, and 2) impersonally as a neuter adjective +dat.
                            >
                            > "PASSIVE" skulds ist +inf. "one must be"
                            > "ACTIVE" skuld ist (+dat.) +inf. "one must" or "one is allowed to"
                            or
                            > more literally "it is permissible [for one] to"
                            > ni skuld ist (+dat.) +inf. "it is not permissible [for one] to"




                            Gothic 'skulds' is is probably related to mod. German 'Schuld'.


                            Just guessing around ...

                            Cheers
                            Dirk
                          • llama_nom
                            ... when ... Right on all counts, I think. Also, Skuld, the name of a norn... Llama Nom
                            Message 13 of 15 , May 14 9:53 AM
                            • 0 Attachment
                              --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "faltin2001" <dirk@s...> wrote:

                              >
                              > I guess Gothic 'nauths' is related to mod. German 'Not/Noetig',
                              when
                              > we say 'es tut Not' meaning 'it is necessary'.
                              >
                              > Gothic 'thaurfts' is probably related to mod. German 'Be -
                              > darf/Duerftig', which also indicates that something is necessary.
                              >
                              > > Gothic 'skulds' is is probably related to mod. German 'Schuld'.

                              > Just guessing around ...
                              >
                              > Cheers
                              > Dirk

                              Right on all counts, I think. Also, Skuld, the name of a norn...

                              Llama Nom
                            • cheyenne nicole
                              llama_nom wrote: Here are some Gothic links which I ve found helpful and interesting, including some Francisc mentioned. I m surprised
                              Message 14 of 15 , May 16 10:23 AM
                              • 0 Attachment
                                llama_nom <penterakt@...> wrote:
                                Here are some Gothic links which I've found helpful and interesting,
                                including some Francisc mentioned. I'm surprised we don't have a
                                selection of such links in the LINKS section of gothic-l. I'm not
                                quite sure how to add them though... Some other excellent addresses
                                not included here can be found at: http://www.reimar.de/gotisch.html

                                TEXTS

                                The Wulfila Project: online searchable Gothic corpus + online edition
                                of Streitberg's "Gotisches Elementarbuch" (minus the section on
                                Syntax, for copyright reasons...)
                                http://www.wulfila.be

                                The Skeireins Project: some of the smaller fragments of Gothic which
                                have survived, including the Skeireins + multiple translations:
                                http://germa.germsem.uni-kiel.de/gotisch/gotisch.html

                                Titus Project: huge collection of Indo-European texts, including the
                                Gothic corpus (click on "text database" in the right window)
                                http://titus.uni-frankfurt.de/indexe.htm


                                DICTIONARIES, etc.

                                Gerhard Koebler (Gothic and other dictionaries, including Old Norse,
                                Old Saxon, Old English, Old High German, Old Frisian, etc.)
                                http://www.koeblergerhard.de/publikat.html

                                Sean Christ's Indo-European Language Resources: a wealth of material
                                including Heyne's dictionary (Gothic-German), Balg's 'Comparative
                                Glossary of the Gothic Language', Wright's 'Grammar of the Gothic
                                Language' & Braune's 'Gotische Grammatik' + grammars and dictionaries
                                for Old Icelandic, Old English, and many more...
                                http://www.ling.upenn.edu/~kurisuto/germanic/language_resources.html

                                Gothic-German glossary (from Lehrbuch der Gotischen Sprache, Johannes
                                Friedrich) http://craven.hypermart.net/Gothic.txt

                                Gothic Names (Tim O'Neill: list of name elements, meanings and Old
                                English equivalents)
                                http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Salon/2385/gothnames.html

                                Crimean Gothic Wordlist
                                http://www.geocities.com/erwan-ar-skoul/gothmod.htm

                                My own still highly imperfect and constantly under revision English-
                                Gothic dictionary--use at your peril...
                                http://freespace.virgin.net/o.e/egd/egdhome.html


                                MODERN WRITING IN GOTHIC

                                The Gotish Tongue Website (Matthew Carver: poems, riddles,
                                Tolkien's "Bagme Bloma") http://www.stormloader.com/carver/gutrazda

                                The Gothic Heathen Homepage (Albareiks: history, religion, modern
                                poems in Gothic) http://www.angelfire.com/goth/kuni/


                                MISCELLANEOUS

                                Database of the Gothic Language (Manuscripts, digitising the Codex
                                Argenteus) http://www.cs.tut.fi/~dla/gothic.html

                                Reimar's Gothic Links (in German)
                                http://www.reimar.de/gotisch.html

                                Gothic Book List
                                http://www.the-orb-net/wemsk/gothicwemsk.html

                                Results for "Gothic" on MavicaNET Multilingual Search Catalog
                                http://www.mavicanet.com/directory/eng/1350.html?iss=0

                                A gentle "introduction to Gothic" with graded lessons by David Salo:
                                http://members.terracom.net/~dorothea/david/gothic/

                                ...and in German, adapted by Jens Vorbrink:
                                http://www.gotisch.de/


                                Hope there's something of use in amongst that lot...

                                Llama Nom



                                --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "Francisc Czobor"
                                wrote:
                                > As far as I know, te best Gothic dictionary available for free on
                                the
                                > web is Koebler's "Gotisches Woertebuch" (Gothic -
                                > German/English/Greek/Latin, with German-Gothic, English-Gothic,
                                Latin-
                                > Gothic and Greek-Gothic finder):
                                > http://homepage.uibk.ac.at/homepage/c303/c30310/gotwbhin.html
                                > Other, less elaborate Gothic dictionaries available freely on the
                                web
                                > are:
                                > Wright's Gothic Glossary (Gothic-English):
                                >
                                http://www.ling.upenn.edu/~kurisuto/germanic/goth_wright_glossary.html
                                > Eric Craven's Gothic-German Glossary:
                                > http://craven.hypermart.net/Gothic.txt
                                > (not accessible at this moment)
                                > Kunhihuzd (Tim O'Neill's page on Gothic names):
                                > http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Salon/2385/gothnames.html
                                > Crimean Gothic - English Glossary:
                                > http://www.geocities.com/erwan-ar-skoul/gothmod.htm
                                > I hope this helps.
                                > Best regards,
                                > Francisc
                                >
                                >
                                > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Debbie Williams
                                > wrote:
                                > > Does anyone know where to get a Gothic language dictionary? I
                                would
                                > love to learn the language since I'm also trying to pick up
                                learning
                                > German & Norwegian. Much thanks to anyone who can help.
                                > >
                                > ]




                                You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a blank email to .
                                Yahoo! Groups Links




                                Thank you for helping me,i don't get alot of help. This will help me alot.



                                Cheyenne

                                ---------------------------------
                                Do you Yahoo!?
                                SBC Yahoo! - Internet access at a great low price.

                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • llama_nom
                                And just when I thought I understood this, here is an alternate view on SKULD. In this article, SKULD, in the phrase _skuldu ist_, is characterised as
                                Message 15 of 15 , May 21 7:48 AM
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  And just when I thought I understood this, here is an alternate view
                                  on SKULD. In this article, SKULD, in the phrase _skuldu ist_, is
                                  characterised as belonging to a class of "predicate nouns with modal
                                  meaning" - "Indo-European Syntactic Rules & Gothic Morphology", by
                                  Vyacheslav V Ivanov, p. 11).

                                  http://www.humnet.ucla.edu/pies/pdfs/IESV/1/VVI_Gothic_syntax.pdf

                                  I'm not sure how you'd distinguish between a neuter noun and a neuter
                                  adjective used in this way. Wright saw it as an adjective. Koebler
                                  has the adjective SKULDS, but lists instances under the headword of
                                  the verb SKULAN, of which SKULDS is the past participle. Though he
                                  does have a noun *skuld, it is treated as strictly hypothetical.

                                  Either way, an interesting article on Gothic & IE syntax.

                                  Llama Nom



                                  --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <penterakt@f...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Hailai sijuth!
                                  >
                                  > And another alternative: nauths ist, literally "there is a need",
                                  > works the same way as: thaurfts ist (with thaurfts here being the
                                  > noun). With each, the thing needed is genitive. As a verb,
                                  thaurban
                                  > = "need", while skulan = "must, shall", with implications of
                                  > obligation, but also used to make a compound future tense, where
                                  the
                                  > simple present might not be specific enough. Hey is everyone else
                                  > doing what I'm doing and typing some Gothic phrase into Google to
                                  > bypass the "Wulfila Project down for repairs" screen?
                                  >
                                  > Skuld- (apart from being the past tense of skulan) is used in two
                                  > ways, with different meanings: 1) as an adjective, agreeing with
                                  the
                                  > nominative subject, and 2) impersonally as a neuter adjective +dat.
                                  >
                                  > "PASSIVE" skulds ist +inf. "one must be"
                                  > "ACTIVE" skuld ist (+dat.) +inf. "one must" or "one is allowed to"
                                  or
                                  > more literally "it is permissible [for one] to"
                                  > ni skuld ist (+dat.) +inf. "it is not permissible [for one] to"
                                  >
                                  > "Passive" and "active" might be slightly confusing labels, in the
                                  > context, but the examples should make it clear. For the former,
                                  see
                                  > L 9,44 skulds ist...atgiban "MUST BE handed over"; and for the
                                  latter
                                  > Mk 10,2 skuldu sijai mann qen afsatjan? "is a man ALLOWED TO
                                  divorce
                                  > his wife?" and 1Cor 6,15 skuld auk ist thata riurjo gahamon
                                  > unriurein "for that which is perishable MUST clothe itself with the
                                  > imperishable".
                                  >
                                  > (This works even in 2 Cor 5,10, if you remember that
                                  ataugjan 'show'
                                  > has, when used passively, the special sense of "appear" as well
                                  > as "show oneself"--allai weis ataugjan skuldai sijum "we must all
                                  > appear".)
                                  >
                                  > So with our hypothetical example: skulum galeithan "we should
                                  leave",
                                  > but: skuld ist unsis galeithan "we are allowed to leave", or to
                                  > reverse it: skuldai sijum bileithan "we must be left", and in the
                                  > past: skuldai wesum bileithan [fram im] "we should have been left
                                  [by
                                  > them]". Or to deny it: ni skuld ist unsis galeithan "we aren't
                                  > allowed to go", or if optional, ni thaurbum galeithan "we don't
                                  need
                                  > to go". To query: skuldu ist unsis galeithan? "are we allowed to
                                  > go?"; niu skuld ist? "aren't we allowed?"; skulumu galeithan "do we
                                  > have to go?"; or: ibai skulum galeithan "do we really have to go?"
                                  > Or if we just don't give a damn: ni waiht wulthrais ist unsis
                                  hwathar
                                  > galeithaima thau ni galeithaima "it's of no importance to us
                                  whether
                                  > we go or not!"
                                  >
                                  > Llama Nom
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "ashley overs"
                                  > <ashlovers_12344@h...> wrote:
                                  > > thanks it realy helps me.
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > >From: matthew carver <me@m...>
                                  > > >Reply-To: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com
                                  > > >To: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com
                                  > > >Subject: Re: [gothic-l] Re: Gothic equivalent for English 'must'
                                  > > >Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 11:30:17 -0700
                                  > > >
                                  > > >hails!
                                  > > >
                                  > > >also there i believe is the possibility of
                                  > > >the construction "skulds ist (+DAT)"
                                  > > >meaning it is owing, lawful. Thaurfts
                                  > > >from tharf- has the meaning of necessity,
                                  > > >obligation. I thought these were impersonal
                                  > > >constructions requiring a dative. Where
                                  > > >does the phrase with thaurfts occur in the
                                  > > >gothic bible as a modal or auxiliary verb?
                                  > > >
                                  > > >-matthew
                                  > > >
                                Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.