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Re: Spanish surnames

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  • Michael Deguara
    Hello Denis As you might have seen from my first post, my surname (De Guara) is also of Spanish origin and probably they were of Visigothic stock. But there s
    Message 1 of 28 , Jan 15, 2004
      Hello Denis
      As you might have seen from my first post, my surname
      (De Guara) is also of Spanish origin and probably they
      were of Visigothic stock. But there's little more I
      know of so far.

      Michael Deguara
      (Malta)

      =====
      Michael Deguara - http://pio.tripod.com
      "We are drunkards from another tavern
      who forgot how we got here." -Rumi.

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    • denis glenard
      Hi Michael, Guara in Spain is a sierra or mountain range in the province of Huesca, in the Pyrenees, very beautiful and full of tourists in summer : it
      Message 2 of 28 , Jan 24, 2004
        Hi Michael,

        Guara in Spain is a "sierra" or mountain range in the province of Huesca, in the Pyrenees, very beautiful and full of tourists in summer : it attracts the sportsy ones with its canyons and rivers. I think it may be one of the places where the Wisigoths found refuge after the arab invasion, together with all the northern spanish mountain range, from Galicia to the Basque country, across Asturias.

        Rgds,

        Denis GLENARD


        ----- Original Message -----
        From: Michael Deguara
        To: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2004 8:11 PM
        Subject: [gothic-l] Re: Spanish surnames



        Hello Denis
        As you might have seen from my first post, my surname
        (De Guara) is also of Spanish origin and probably they
        were of Visigothic stock. But there's little more I
        know of so far.

        Michael Deguara
        (Malta)

        =====
        Michael Deguara - http://pio.tripod.com
        "We are drunkards from another tavern
        who forgot how we got here." -Rumi.

        __________________________________
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      • llama_nom
        Hi Denis, This site has a big list of Spanish name-etymologies: http://www.buenosaires.gov.ar/registrocivil/nombres/busqueda/index.php ?letra=a&sexo=m
        Message 3 of 28 , Jan 28, 2004
          Hi Denis,

          This site has a big list of Spanish name-etymologies:

          http://www.buenosaires.gov.ar/registrocivil/nombres/busqueda/index.php
          ?letra=a&sexo=m

          According to it, Alvaro means "very alert". Slightly modifying the
          Gothic elements which they give, I'm guessing the original might be:
          ALAWAR. (The final -s disappears after a short vowel.) The prefix
          ala- is found in Gothic, meaning 'all' (alamans = 'humankind'), and
          is common in names (cf. Alaric < *Alareiks). While *war does not
          occur in the corpus, _warei_ means 'cunning' or 'sly'. It is cognate
          with English _wary_, and related words in other Germanic languages,
          meaning 'alert', 'aware', etc.

          Llama Nom


          --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "Denis Glenard" <denisglenard@y...>
          wrote:
          > Hi, I'm new in this group, interested in the links between the
          Goths
          > and their heritage in the Spanish peninsula.
          >
          > There is a question going on in a Spanish genealogy group about the
          > origin of the surname ALVARADO.
          >
          > The conventional wisdom is that it is derived from Alfraed,
          latinized
          > as Alvaradus, then into Alvarado and it originates in the Gothic
          > kingdom of Spain. Is there any recorded trace to substantiate this
          > explanation ? Is it linked to Alvaro and Alvarez ?
          >
          > Thanks for your insights.
          >
          > Happy new year to all,
          >
          > Denis GLENARD
        • OSCAR HERRERA
          there in spain today alot of people live there are of decented from their gothic invaders.ive been in spain several times.so why isnt there govt providing the
          Message 4 of 28 , Jan 29, 2004
            there in spain today alot of people live there are of decented from their gothic invaders.ive been in spain several times.so why isnt there govt providing the language goth as an alternative language instead of say english or french.i mean if your racially indebted to your own culture ,then they should carry on that culture i mean the goths did more in spain than any other group. they fought the moors and established their kingdom there for 400 years.i think more should be bestowed on the gothic deeds done there.even the possibility of starting a new gothic led govt for some of the people there. or say dividing spain up where half will speak spanish and a spanish govt. and the other half a goth led govt speaking goth....something to that effect. oscargoth

            llama_nom <penterakt@...> wrote:
            Hi Denis,

            This site has a big list of Spanish name-etymologies:

            http://www.buenosaires.gov.ar/registrocivil/nombres/busqueda/index.php
            ?letra=a&sexo=m

            According to it, Alvaro means "very alert". Slightly modifying the
            Gothic elements which they give, I'm guessing the original might be:
            ALAWAR. (The final -s disappears after a short vowel.) The prefix
            ala- is found in Gothic, meaning 'all' (alamans = 'humankind'), and
            is common in names (cf. Alaric < *Alareiks). While *war does not
            occur in the corpus, _warei_ means 'cunning' or 'sly'. It is cognate
            with English _wary_, and related words in other Germanic languages,
            meaning 'alert', 'aware', etc.

            Llama Nom


            --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "Denis Glenard"
            wrote:
            > Hi, I'm new in this group, interested in the links between the
            Goths
            > and their heritage in the Spanish peninsula.
            >
            > There is a question going on in a Spanish genealogy group about the
            > origin of the surname ALVARADO.
            >
            > The conventional wisdom is that it is derived from Alfraed,
            latinized
            > as Alvaradus, then into Alvarado and it originates in the Gothic
            > kingdom of Spain. Is there any recorded trace to substantiate this
            > explanation ? Is it linked to Alvaro and Alvarez ?
            >
            > Thanks for your insights.
            >
            > Happy new year to all,
            >
            > Denis GLENARD


            You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a blank email to .

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          • denis glenard
            Thanks Llama ! I find very interesting to see how names and words have permeated other languages and cultures. Brgds, Denis GLENARD ... From: llama_nom To:
            Message 5 of 28 , Jan 29, 2004
              Thanks Llama !

              I find very interesting to see how names and words have permeated other languages and cultures.

              Brgds,

              Denis GLENARD

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: llama_nom
              To: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2004 5:09 AM
              Subject: [gothic-l] Re: Spanish surnames



              Hi Denis,

              This site has a big list of Spanish name-etymologies:

              http://www.buenosaires.gov.ar/registrocivil/nombres/busqueda/index.php
              ?letra=a&sexo=m

              According to it, Alvaro means "very alert". Slightly modifying the
              Gothic elements which they give, I'm guessing the original might be:
              ALAWAR. (The final -s disappears after a short vowel.) The prefix
              ala- is found in Gothic, meaning 'all' (alamans = 'humankind'), and
              is common in names (cf. Alaric < *Alareiks). While *war does not
              occur in the corpus, _warei_ means 'cunning' or 'sly'. It is cognate
              with English _wary_, and related words in other Germanic languages,
              meaning 'alert', 'aware', etc.

              Llama Nom


              --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "Denis Glenard" <denisglenard@y...>
              wrote:
              > Hi, I'm new in this group, interested in the links between the
              Goths
              > and their heritage in the Spanish peninsula.
              >
              > There is a question going on in a Spanish genealogy group about the
              > origin of the surname ALVARADO.
              >
              > The conventional wisdom is that it is derived from Alfraed,
              latinized
              > as Alvaradus, then into Alvarado and it originates in the Gothic
              > kingdom of Spain. Is there any recorded trace to substantiate this
              > explanation ? Is it linked to Alvaro and Alvarez ?
              >
              > Thanks for your insights.
              >
              > Happy new year to all,
              >
              > Denis GLENARD



              You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a blank email to <gothic-l-unsubscribe@egroups.com>.



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              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • llama_nom
              Ooops: I meant SLYNESS , NOT SLY , _warei_ is the noun... ... http://www.buenosaires.gov.ar/registrocivil/nombres/busqueda/index.php ...
              Message 6 of 28 , Feb 4, 2004
                Ooops: I meant "SLYNESS", NOT "SLY", _warei_ is the noun...


                --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <penterakt@f...> wrote:

                > Hi Denis,
                >
                > This site has a big list of Spanish name-etymologies:
                >
                >
                http://www.buenosaires.gov.ar/registrocivil/nombres/busqueda/index.php
                > ?letra=a&sexo=m
                >
                > According to it, Alvaro means "very alert". Slightly modifying the
                > Gothic elements which they give, I'm guessing the original might
                be:
                > ALAWAR. (The final -s disappears after a short vowel.) The prefix
                > ala- is found in Gothic, meaning 'all' (alamans = 'humankind'), and
                > is common in names (cf. Alaric < *Alareiks). While *war does not
                > occur in the corpus, _warei_ means 'cunning' or
                ************************'sly'***************************************.
                It is cognate
                > with English _wary_, and related words in other Germanic languages,
                > meaning 'alert', 'aware', etc.
                >
                > Llama Nom
              • Leonardo Frithunanths
                Hails Allum! After an absence of 3 years I ve returned to this list, and apparently nothing much has changed around here, thank God. :) I would like to make
                Message 7 of 28 , May 16, 2004
                  Hails Allum!

                  After an absence of 3 years I've returned to this list, and apparently nothing much has changed around here, thank God. :)

                  I would like to make comment on what Oscargoth once wrote.

                  Oscar,- I couldn't agree more with you!!!!

                  But regarding a possible division where one part would speak spanish and another one gothic, well, I'm not very much into the 'good old' "Divide and conquer/rule" system, I think that we've seen too much of that throughout history.

                  But I'm most definitely positive to that idea of awakening the spanish people into the knowledge of their glorious legacy, the Visigoths, successors of the romans and defenders of the Iberian Peninsula. This glorious, highly intelligent and also from a cultural/religious point of view, interesting people who in modern times have most often been blemished by far too many people(specially from the church...). For me it seems extremely reasonable to do all this (except for the division of Spain) considering the following things: In Spain there's today a growing awareness of their celtic heritage, very much expressed in e.g newly founded cultural groups and feasts. Euskera needs no further introduction considering the great importance that it already enjoys in today's Northern Spain. Regarding Iberian, well.. very little is known still today about this ancient language and apparently those who understand it, even a little bit, are all scientists or amateur scientists.
                  Arabic is taught in Spain at several institutions and besides, today's spanish urban citizens have a close contact with them and their culture considering the vast amount of arabic inmigrants that live in Spain today.

                  Latin and the cultures that it spawned has, is and will most definitely always be taught at schools, universities and other institutions throughout Spain.

                  It therefore leaves us with the Gothic discourse. As people in Spain are taught in history about the Romans, La Reconquista and the Moors(+ the very, very little that is also taught about the Iberians, Basques, Greeks, Phoenicians, Celts/Celtiberians, Alans and the Germanic tribes). Spanish is being taught, as well as other languages which have nothing much to do with the Peninsula such as English or French. Why can't Gothic be taught then? Considering that they did establish themselves on the Peninsula, they ruled and influenced it forever by mixing themselves with the rest of the population. They also provided to the heritage by leaving customs, sayings, words and other cultural traits. As mentioned, they ruled it and left behind them significant edifications such as churches, monuments etc... and even at least one town(!) such as Reccopolis.

                  The goths and their descendants were crucial in all means in contributing to the outcome of what is known today as Spain.

                  Therefore I call out to everyone out there (especialmente a aquellos de esta lista que viven en España), isn't there anything that can be done in order to promulge yet again the knowledge(e.g their language, history and religion) about AND of the Goths in Spain?

                  'Anything?! There must be!

                  Thank you in advance.

                  Yours sincerely,

                  Leonardo.



                  Ansts jah gawairthi izwis! - Grace and peace to you.


                  >there in spain today alot of people live there >are of decented from their gothic
                  >invaders.ive been in spain several times.so why >isnt there govt providing the
                  >language goth as an alternative language instead of >say english or french.i mean
                  >if your racially indebted to your own culture ,then >they should carry on that
                  >culture i mean the goths did more in spain than any >other group. they fought
                  >the moors and established their kingdom there for >400 years.i think more should
                  >be bestowed on the gothic deeds done there.even the >possibility of starting a
                  >new gothic led govt for some of the people there. >or say dividing spain up where
                  >half will speak spanish and a spanish govt. and the >other half a goth led govt
                  >speaking goth....something to that effect. oscargoth



                  ---------------------------------
                  Correo Yahoo!: 6MB, más protección contra el spam ¡gratis!

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • faltin2001
                  ... apparently nothing much has changed around here, thank God. :) ... spanish and another one gothic, well, I m not very much into the good old Divide and
                  Message 8 of 28 , May 17, 2004
                    --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Leonardo Frithunanths
                    <frithunanths_scandza@y...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Hails Allum!
                    >
                    > After an absence of 3 years I've returned to this list, and
                    apparently nothing much has changed around here, thank God. :)
                    >
                    > I would like to make comment on what Oscargoth once wrote.
                    >
                    > Oscar,- I couldn't agree more with you!!!!
                    >
                    > But regarding a possible division where one part would speak
                    spanish and another one gothic, well, I'm not very much into
                    the 'good old' "Divide and conquer/rule" system, I think that we've
                    seen too much of that throughout history.
                    >
                    > But I'm most definitely positive to that idea of awakening the
                    spanish people into the knowledge of their glorious legacy, the
                    Visigoths, successors of the romans and defenders of the Iberian
                    Peninsula.



                    Dirk:
                    They didn't do a particularly good job defending the Peninsula I
                    think. I mean loosing the whole place in one battle? In fact, as you
                    know the last Visigothic rulers were highly divided and parts of them
                    have most likely called in the Moors. Also, by far most Visigoths
                    lived well under the Moors.









                    >This glorious, highly intelligent





                    Dirk:
                    I don't think that a people as such can be highly intelligent. Some
                    of them will have been intelligent others will have been less so.







                    and also from a cultural/religious point of view, interesting people
                    who in modern times have most often been blemished by far too many
                    people(specially from the church...).






                    Dirk:
                    I think they have mostly been glorified out of all proportion,
                    especially by the church in Spain. Afterall the reconquista tried to
                    envoke the Catholic Visigothic realm.












                    For me it seems extremely reasonable to do all this (except for the
                    division of Spain) considering the following things:
                    In Spain there's today a growing awareness of their celtic heritage,
                    very much expressed in e.g newly founded cultural groups and feasts.
                    Euskera needs no further introduction considering the great
                    importance that it already enjoys in today's Northern Spain.
                    Regarding Iberian, well.. very little is known still today about this
                    ancient language and apparently those who understand it, even a
                    little bit, are all scientists or amateur scientists.
                    > Arabic is taught in Spain at several institutions and besides,
                    today's spanish urban citizens have a close contact with them and
                    their culture considering the vast amount of arabic inmigrants that
                    live in Spain today.
                    >
                    > Latin and the cultures that it spawned has, is and will most
                    definitely always be taught at schools, universities and other
                    institutions throughout Spain.
                    >
                    > It therefore leaves us with the Gothic discourse. As people in
                    Spain are taught in history about the Romans, La Reconquista and the
                    Moors(+ the very, very little that is also taught about the Iberians,
                    Basques, Greeks, Phoenicians, Celts/Celtiberians, Alans and the
                    Germanic tribes). Spanish is being taught, as well as other languages
                    which have nothing much to do with the Peninsula such as English or
                    French. Why can't Gothic be taught then?





                    Dirk:
                    I suppose it could be taught, but there will likely be very little
                    interest, apart from students of Germanistics. The Goths who arrived
                    on the Iberian peninsular around 500AD were already in the process of
                    loosing their Germanic language. The Visigoths in Spain spoke at best
                    only for about 1 generation Gothic if it all. A 6 century source
                    calls them the Roman Goths, likely to show that they were mostly
                    Latin speaking.







                    Considering that they did establish themselves on the Peninsula,
                    they ruled and influenced it forever by mixing themselves with the
                    rest of the population.






                    Dirk:
                    Their cultural influence is undeniably very significant, but their
                    ethnic input is hardly more than a drop in an ocean, outnumbered even
                    by the input of other minorities like Jews, Berbers etc.










                    They also provided to the heritage by leaving customs, sayings, words
                    and other cultural traits. As mentioned, they ruled it and left
                    behind them significant edifications such as churches, monuments
                    etc... and even at least one town(!) such as Reccopolis.
                    >
                    > The goths and their descendants were crucial in all means in
                    contributing to the outcome of what is known today as Spain.
                    >
                    > Therefore I call out to everyone out there (especialmente a
                    aquellos de esta lista que viven en España), isn't there anything
                    that can be done in order to promulge yet again the knowledge(e.g
                    their language, history and religion) about AND of the Goths in
                    Spain?
                    >
                    > 'Anything?! There must be!
                    >






                    Dirk:
                    No harm in trying; but it would be an artificial reconstruction based
                    on some sort of patriotism/nationalism and in disregard of the true
                    ethnnic and cultural origins of Spain, which certainly is not
                    Visigothic, but to which the Visigoths made a contribution.

                    Cheers
                    Dirk
                  • OSCAR HERRERA
                    oscargoth- dirk you know little of the goths.how spanish was invoked as a language ,well lets say we dont know.it was spoken there before the romans
                    Message 9 of 28 , May 18, 2004
                      oscargoth- dirk you know little of the goths.how spanish was invoked as a language ,well lets say we dont know.it was spoken there before the romans arrived.the goths on the other hand were a well adapting germanic tribe and were very loyal to their own language as shown by many gothic kings that ruled in spain prior to the moors invasion. their names were germanic,such as sisabut,sigeric,wallia,theudigiesel and on....history also said the goths drove the moors out..... so, why did these people give up their language and change spanish to its present pronunciation instead of invoking the gothic language and using a liitle spanish in it. in conclusion gothic is nice to speak and i think the germanic peoples of europe should be entitled to more than just a few germanic languages spoken in north europe...

                      faltin2001 <dirk@...> wrote:--- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Leonardo Frithunanths
                      wrote:
                      >
                      > Hails Allum!
                      >
                      > After an absence of 3 years I've returned to this list, and
                      apparently nothing much has changed around here, thank God. :)
                      >
                      > I would like to make comment on what Oscargoth once wrote.
                      >
                      > Oscar,- I couldn't agree more with you!!!!
                      >
                      > But regarding a possible division where one part would speak
                      spanish and another one gothic, well, I'm not very much into
                      the 'good old' "Divide and conquer/rule" system, I think that we've
                      seen too much of that throughout history.
                      >
                      > But I'm most definitely positive to that idea of awakening the
                      spanish people into the knowledge of their glorious legacy, the
                      Visigoths, successors of the romans and defenders of the Iberian
                      Peninsula.



                      Dirk:
                      They didn't do a particularly good job defending the Peninsula I
                      think. I mean loosing the whole place in one battle? In fact, as you
                      know the last Visigothic rulers were highly divided and parts of them
                      have most likely called in the Moors. Also, by far most Visigoths
                      lived well under the Moors.









                      >This glorious, highly intelligent





                      Dirk:
                      I don't think that a people as such can be highly intelligent. Some
                      of them will have been intelligent others will have been less so.







                      and also from a cultural/religious point of view, interesting people
                      who in modern times have most often been blemished by far too many
                      people(specially from the church...).






                      Dirk:
                      I think they have mostly been glorified out of all proportion,
                      especially by the church in Spain. Afterall the reconquista tried to
                      envoke the Catholic Visigothic realm.












                      For me it seems extremely reasonable to do all this (except for the
                      division of Spain) considering the following things:
                      In Spain there's today a growing awareness of their celtic heritage,
                      very much expressed in e.g newly founded cultural groups and feasts.
                      Euskera needs no further introduction considering the great
                      importance that it already enjoys in today's Northern Spain.
                      Regarding Iberian, well.. very little is known still today about this
                      ancient language and apparently those who understand it, even a
                      little bit, are all scientists or amateur scientists.
                      > Arabic is taught in Spain at several institutions and besides,
                      today's spanish urban citizens have a close contact with them and
                      their culture considering the vast amount of arabic inmigrants that
                      live in Spain today.
                      >
                      > Latin and the cultures that it spawned has, is and will most
                      definitely always be taught at schools, universities and other
                      institutions throughout Spain.
                      >
                      > It therefore leaves us with the Gothic discourse. As people in
                      Spain are taught in history about the Romans, La Reconquista and the
                      Moors(+ the very, very little that is also taught about the Iberians,
                      Basques, Greeks, Phoenicians, Celts/Celtiberians, Alans and the
                      Germanic tribes). Spanish is being taught, as well as other languages
                      which have nothing much to do with the Peninsula such as English or
                      French. Why can't Gothic be taught then?





                      Dirk:
                      I suppose it could be taught, but there will likely be very little
                      interest, apart from students of Germanistics. The Goths who arrived
                      on the Iberian peninsular around 500AD were already in the process of
                      loosing their Germanic language. The Visigoths in Spain spoke at best
                      only for about 1 generation Gothic if it all. A 6 century source
                      calls them the Roman Goths, likely to show that they were mostly
                      Latin speaking.







                      Considering that they did establish themselves on the Peninsula,
                      they ruled and influenced it forever by mixing themselves with the
                      rest of the population.






                      Dirk:
                      Their cultural influence is undeniably very significant, but their
                      ethnic input is hardly more than a drop in an ocean, outnumbered even
                      by the input of other minorities like Jews, Berbers etc.










                      They also provided to the heritage by leaving customs, sayings, words
                      and other cultural traits. As mentioned, they ruled it and left
                      behind them significant edifications such as churches, monuments
                      etc... and even at least one town(!) such as Reccopolis.
                      >
                      > The goths and their descendants were crucial in all means in
                      contributing to the outcome of what is known today as Spain.
                      >
                      > Therefore I call out to everyone out there (especialmente a
                      aquellos de esta lista que viven en Espa�a), isn't there anything
                      that can be done in order to promulge yet again the knowledge(e.g
                      their language, history and religion) about AND of the Goths in
                      Spain?
                      >
                      > 'Anything?! There must be!
                      >






                      Dirk:
                      No harm in trying; but it would be an artificial reconstruction based
                      on some sort of patriotism/nationalism and in disregard of the true
                      ethnnic and cultural origins of Spain, which certainly is not
                      Visigothic, but to which the Visigoths made a contribution.

                      Cheers
                      Dirk




                      You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a blank email to .
                      Yahoo! Groups Links







                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • F. E. Jiménez Díaz
                      Hello Leonardo, I missed seeing your post for an entire week, but I m quite glad that I stumbled on to it this morning. Welcome back to the Gothic-L. I am glad
                      Message 10 of 28 , May 26, 2004
                        Hello Leonardo,
                        I missed seeing your post for an entire week, but I'm quite glad that
                        I stumbled on to it this morning.
                        Welcome back to the Gothic-L.
                        I am glad to read of your interest in the Visigoths of the Spanish
                        Gothia.

                        >--- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Leonardo Frithunanths
                        ><frithunanths_scandza@y...> >wrote:
                        >
                        >Hails Allum!
                        >
                        >After an absence of 3 years I've returned to this list, and
                        apparently nothing much has >changed around here, thank God. :)
                        >
                        >I would like to make comment on what Oscargoth once wrote.
                        >But regarding a possible division where one part would speak Spanish
                        >and another one gothic, well, I'm not very much into the 'good old'
                        >"Divide and conquer/rule" system, I think that we've seen too much
                        >of that throughout history.
                        >But I'm most definitely positive to that idea of awakening the
                        >Spanish people into the knowledge of their glorious legacy,

                        F.E.J.D writes:
                        Leonardo, I think the idea of offering Spaniards more exposure to
                        their Gothic heritage, language and culture is an interesting cause
                        especially since at present there is a great resurgence of interest in
                        those very things, however, I am convinced that what you state can
                        best be accomplished by allowing your interest and enthusiasm to spark
                        the same interest and enthusiasm in those around you. Get involved
                        yourself and do not count on anyone else. In addition, along with your
                        interest, you must also be ready to supply cogent, meaningful and
                        relevant content that will make the undertaking reasonable to others.
                        Therefore, read voraciously, learn and contrast the differing points
                        of view and become well rounded in as many aspects of that scholarship
                        as you can.
                        It is quite true that knowing one's history can be an enriching and
                        positive life changing experience. It informs our worldview, and
                        allows us to imbue with value the things that we ordinarily take for
                        granted. It also tends to ground us in the consensus of knowledge
                        concerning such matters so that we are not fooled by the inadequately
                        informed and/or purposely misleading opinions of other individuals.

                        >the Visigoths, successors of the Romans and defenders of the Iberian
                        >Peninsula.

                        F.E.J.D. writes:
                        I am also of the opinion that the Visigoths WERE able defenders of
                        their people as the Clades Variana and other subsequent battles inform
                        us. Like you, I believe that they continued to defend their people and
                        homeland in Gothispania. They subdued the Vandals, Suebi, Byzantines
                        and turned away the advances of the Franks and other menacing
                        elements. Nonetheless, human frailty is always at work. Unfortunately,
                        the success of the Moorish invasion can be attributed to certain
                        Visigoth factions that conspired with certain other religious and/or
                        ethnic elements whom the Visigoths had oppressed under Sisebut (among
                        others). The latter elements allowed the passage of the Moors into
                        Spain while Roderick was quelling an insurrection in the Basque
                        highlands. By the time Roderick received the news, made retreat,
                        resupplied, tasked his generals and arrived to do battle, the Moors
                        had penetrated well into the south and were rested, rehearsed in their
                        tactics and ready to wage war. The ensuing death of Roderick put the
                        Visigoths into disarray but the Visigoths managed, to delay the
                        Moorish advance for some months and to keep them from taking the
                        territories in the northern mountains, the latter allowed the time and
                        space to let a great host of nobles and warriors and their families to
                        take refuge there. Thereafter, they were successful in keeping the
                        Moors from taking those areas. Those that remained in Moorish occupied
                        lands did not fare as well. The latter were subjected to extremely
                        high taxes, curtailed freedoms, certain religious oppressions and even
                        a yearly territorial tribute of 100 virgins "having blue eyes and
                        golden hair" who were subjected to "forcible rape" in the caliph's
                        harems. Fortunately, the latter practice was eliminated within a short
                        time after a great revolt ensued. Such revolt and resistance to the
                        Moors was revelatory of the things to come. As regards conditions and
                        relations under the Moors, John Crow states, "Quite unlike the
                        Visigoths, the Moors were never able effectively to establish their
                        dominion over Catholic Spain. By the eleventh century the battle lines
                        between the two religions were clearly drawn, and by the thirteenth
                        century (only the southern parts of Iberia were yet occupied by the
                        Moors, [mine]) these lines had become a part of the national folk and
                        literary tradition. Hence, the particular and very Christian point of
                        view, which comes across to us from the ballads about Rodereik, a
                        feeble monarch who had been turned into a national legend, indicates
                        to us how oral tradition faithfully caught and reflected the
                        polarization of Spanish resistance to Islam (sic), (Crow, 1985). Here
                        I make two points. 1). Even after the defeat at Guadalete, resistance
                        to the invaders was consistently demonstrated. 2). Despite the defeat
                        at Guadalete (which must NOT be seen as an end to Visigothic identity)
                        the exiled Visigoths in the mountains of Asturias (quite aware of
                        their duty to defend) remained steadfast in protecting their people
                        and homeland. In fact, only seven years after the Moorish invasion a
                        horde of nobles and warriors, the great majority being Visigoths from
                        the previous Toledan kingdom or their direct descendants (commanded
                        under Pelagius - grandson of Reccesvinth), successfully expelled
                        Munuza, the Moorish provincial governor from the footsteps of the
                        northern highlands. Thereafter, the defeat of Alkama at Covadonga
                        sealed the beginning of the 700-year long but eventually successful
                        struggle of the Reconquista. Thus, the origins of the Reconquista
                        itself can be attributed to Pelagius, Reccesvinth's grandson who by
                        example in leadership and political savvy was able to lead the remnant
                        Visigoths and amalgamate the forces of the Vascones and Celtic people
                        of Galicia and Asturias against the Moorish enemy. The latter was the
                        only way that massive enough forces could successfully be mustered
                        against the enemy. It is important to note that after Covadonga and
                        after all Moorish forces were expelled from northern Spain the council
                        of Albelda (822CE) records NOT CHURCH LEADERS or some other vicarious
                        entity but Alfons II (great-great-great-grandson of Visigothic King
                        Reccared instituting OMNEM GOTORUM ORDINEM SICUT TOLETO FUERAT - THE
                        WHOLE ORGANIZATION OF THE GOTHS JUST AS IT WAS AT TOLEDO. What needs
                        to be understood here is that the singular defeat at Guadalete
                        (especially under its particular circumstances) cannot define and
                        fault a lack of resolve on the part of the Visigoths to defend person
                        and homeland. Rather, it is evident in the above stated events that
                        there was a continuation and affirmation of Visigothic identity by the
                        descendents of Visigoths in the royal lineage, nobility and warrior
                        ranks while exiled in Asturias as well as a resolve to defend person
                        and homeland (especially against the Moorish invaders) for centuries
                        well after 711.

                        >This glorious, highly intelligent and also from a cultural/religious
                        >point of view, interesting people –cut-

                        F.E.J.D. writes:
                        Leonardo, I am convinced that all humans are relatively intelligent;
                        also, the word glorious is too subjective here and must be embraced as
                        a matter of opinion. Nonetheless the Visigoths must be commended for
                        learning to survive against great odds, their incredible journey
                        through almost an entire continent, their conquests; legal codes,
                        artistic and architectural endeavors which devised the forerunner to
                        Romanesque architecture and the flying buttress as well as their
                        relentless pursuit for liberty, their contribution to the preservation
                        of certain Germanic and Roman institutions through a thoughtful
                        synthesis of each other's ideas and most importantly, the mysterious
                        glue that held all of the latter and their people together through so
                        much hardship for so many years. --- Wow! No wonder we are still
                        asking questions about them…

                        >who in modern times have most often been blemished by far too many
                        >people(specially from the church...).

                        F.E.J.D. writes:
                        Leonardo, (Very Broadly) it seems (in Spain) there have been two
                        ideological camps as concerns the Visigoths. One camp sees them
                        generally as having made positive contributions; it weighs their pros
                        and cons in a relatively balanced way. The other - realizes their
                        contributions but in the end sees them as uncouth barbarian
                        interlopers that destroyed the primacy of Roman civilization. The
                        latter I attribute to certain historical biases found in the faculties
                        of certain universities. They tend to worship everything Roman and
                        chafe when dealing with Germanic contributions. They fail to see that
                        what the Visigoth's accomplished is part of their very loins.
                        Fortunately it is a minority view. Nonetheless, as has been already
                        stated the Germanic contribution be it genetic, artistic or
                        intellectual is inescapable.

                        >For me it seems extremely reasonable to do all this (except for the
                        >division of Spain) considering the following things:
                        >In Spain there's today a growing awareness of their celtic heritage,
                        >very much expressed in e.g newly founded cultural groups and feasts.
                        >Euskera needs no further introduction considering the great
                        >importance that it already enjoys in today's Northern Spain.
                        >Regarding Iberian, well.. very little is known still today about this
                        >ancient language and apparently those who understand it, even a
                        >little bit, are all scientists or amateur scientists. Arabic is
                        >taught in Spain at several Institutions and besides, today's spanish
                        >urban citizens have a close contact with them and their culture
                        >considering the vast amount of arabic inmigrants that live in Spain
                        >today.

                        >Latin and the cultures that it spawned has, is and will most
                        >definitely always be taught at schools, universities and other
                        >institutions throughout Spain.

                        >It therefore leaves us with the Gothic discourse. As people in Spain
                        >are taught in history about the Romans, La Reconquista and the
                        >Moors(+ the very, very little that is also taught about the Iberians,
                        >Basques, Greeks, Phoenicians, Celts/Celtiberians, Alans and the
                        >Germanic tribes).

                        F.E.J.D. writes:
                        Leonardo, the latter is part of the bias that I just explained.

                        >Spanish is being taught, as well as other languages which have
                        >nothing much to do with the Peninsula such as English or French. Why
                        >can't Gothic be taught then?


                        F.E.J.D. writes:
                        Interestingly, Leonardo, I know of someone who is in the process of
                        home schooling his children and he and his wife have been teaching
                        them Old English and Gothic. The children are incredibly bright and
                        have already mastered several known languages. In my own experience,
                        language is best learned at an early age, and as I found out while
                        taking the course anthropological linguistics during my baccalaureate,
                        it develops our "metalinguistic awareness", which further serves us in
                        attaining mastery over yet other languages. -- Nonetheless Leonardo,
                        language is only part of the whole; a comprehensive understanding of
                        the Goths and Visigoths as well as other relevant Germanic tribes must
                        encompass all aspects of those cultures. To that end I wonder if a
                        (less passive) forum should be created where members are more actively
                        led, engaged, and encouraged to publish and/or discuss good articles
                        and anecdotes on relevant Germanic and Gothic/Visigothic languages,
                        culture, history, anthropology and all other aspects of relevant
                        Germanic and Gothic/Visigothic scholarship. The group should also have
                        a web page and also accommodate people posting in other languages.
                        Perhaps I'll look into creating such a list myself. My only concern
                        would be not to negatively impact this lists member base. I do not
                        think it would. Also, my suggestion should not be construed as
                        negative criticism of the (Gothic-L). In fact, I corresponded with the
                        founders before they created it was the third person to join after the
                        owners. Thereafter, I announced this groups formation in "Oldnorsenet"
                        (an old defunct forum) and quite a few joined-up forming the group's
                        earliest member base. Rather, this list could remain just as it is,
                        especially with its strong expertise as concerns questions about the
                        Gothic language for which it is an excellent resource and with which
                        it is often preoccupied.

                        >Considering that they did establish themselves on the Peninsula, they
                        >ruled and influenced it forever by mixing themselves with the rest of
                        >the population.

                        F.E.J.D. writes:
                        Presently Leonardo, genetic haplotyping has minimized the inaccuracy
                        of population studies, which relied solely on historical data,
                        craniometry and typology and other circuitous and highly
                        interpretational methods. No longer do we have to accept unreliable
                        and/or sometimes "ulterior" subjective opinions on such things as the
                        genetic contribution of people groups such as Visigoths (the largest
                        of ALL Germanic tribes) to the Spanish population. Simply by
                        understanding, contrasting and comparing the relevant haplogroups and
                        haplotypes within a given population one is able to tell if there has
                        been any extraneous admixture. It is interesting however that before
                        there was haplotyping it had been thought (quite correctly) by many
                        scholars, (including Bury), that the Visigoths numbered approximately
                        300,000 in a peninsula of (at the time) [3,500,000 inhabitants
                        (Kenneth W. Harl, Tulane U. 1998)]. Likewise, (Stanley Payne, 1973)
                        concluded that the same number existed after the time of Alaric II
                        (484-507); a ratio of (11.66) to (1). The later ratio is in fact close
                        to the present ratio of African-Americans to European Americans in the
                        U.S, a sizable element in the overall population. Even so, it is
                        further thought that despite pressures from disease etc; the
                        Visigothic law of "thirds", (where 2/3 of each Hispano-Roman villa was
                        confiscated by Visigoths), would have given the Visigoths a greater
                        advantage in increasing their numbers, that, since the ability to
                        raise comestibles by having more land and better soils would have
                        favored Visigoth families over those who had poor soil and less land
                        and could not raise as much food. Furthermore, by projecting the
                        previous trend to 711CE (a period of some 200 years) it is quite
                        conceivable that the Visigoths could have narrowed the previously
                        stated ratio to as little as 10 to 1. You must also notice that I have
                        not factored-in other people Germanic people already in the peninsula,
                        they are simply not included as part of the Visigothic population,
                        namely the Suebi, which probably numbered around 80,000, and the
                        remnant Vandals that remained in Spain or returned to the Balearic
                        Islands and elsewhere after their ruinous mission to the south,
                        however these were probably few. – Nonetheless, underpinning the best
                        estimate of Visigoth admixture in Spain is the presence of suspect
                        genetic signatures in the Y-chromosome and/or mtDNA of extant
                        individuals where an inference may be made. The latter is in the
                        process of being collected from the extant populations of (Spain,
                        Pomerania, Gotland, and Southern Sweden as well as other suspected
                        homelands. It is also being collected from bone found in known
                        Gothic/Visigothic necropoli confirmed during archaeological excavation
                        through sartorial fashion, jewelry and other relevant artifacts.
                        Unfortunately, this study has been and will be underway for quite
                        sometime since it is quite comprehensive and the collection and
                        amplification of ancient materials is a slow process and/or has to be
                        done with great care and covers such an extensive geographical area.
                        Similar but smaller studies have been done by Dr. Brian Sykes to
                        estimate the Norse Viking admixture in Britain and Iceland. Dr. Sykes,
                        author of the "Seven Daughters of Eve" (a fantastic read that I highly
                        recommend).

                        [Explanation follows] (During the Last Glacial Maximum, about 18,000
                        years ago, the people bearing the R1b haplogroup over wintered in
                        Northern Spain (a refugium). After the glacial retreat about 12,000
                        years before present, R1b began a migration to the north in large
                        numbers and to the east in lesser numbers. "R1b probably arrived in
                        Spain from the east some 30,000 years ago among the Paleolithic or
                        "old stone age" peoples and is considered to be aboriginal to Europe.
                        They absorbed and/or replaced the handful of inhabitants living in
                        those areas. R1b is most concentrated in the population of the Basques
                        and nearby areas of Northern Spain as well as Wales and western
                        Ireland. It is at nearly 100% in those areas likely due to their
                        geographical isolation curtailing immigration. In other words, the
                        latter populations are among the most homogenous or (unmixed)
                        populations in Europe, almost exclusively comprised of the R1b
                        haplogroup and having almost no other haplogroup signatures in them.
                        Further east R1b attains a distribution of 70% in the Low-countries
                        and about 55% in places thought to be the contributing populations of
                        the Anglo-Saxon and Danish tribes and also thins-out in its
                        northernmost cline- Norway, where it is at 30%. The latter is current
                        standard knowledge in the DNA concordances of Europe and well
                        supported in a plethora of studies by numerous universities. "Everyone
                        who has the R1b is a descendant in the male line from an individual
                        known as "the patriarch" since his descendants account for over 40% of
                        all the chromosomes of Europe. This haplogroup is characteristic of
                        the Basques whose language is probably that of the first R1b, and who
                        are genetically the closest to the original R1b population (which
                        probably amounted to only a few thousand individuals)." (Source: Dr.
                        David Faux). Now Leonardo – In order to contrast the genetic
                        Contribution that may have come by way of other groups such as the
                        Visigoths against the Spanish population at large, it is important to
                        understand the aforementioned, as well as the signatures of nearby
                        populations. However, the genetic neighborhood around Spain is either
                        very similar (in the case of western France and the British Isles
                        declining to the north and east, or radically different such as in the
                        case of the populations of Northern Africa which originate from
                        distinctly different patrilineages. To that end I include the
                        following citations and several of my own findings: 1). "It is now
                        understood that the Strait of Gibraltar seems to have acted as a
                        strong (although not complete) barrier to gene flow…" (Bosch et al.,
                        Am J Hum Genet, 2001) . 2). "The majority of Iberian lineages resemble
                        those of central and northern Europe (Richards et al. 1996). 3). "It
                        seems therefore that the genetic contribution by the Moorish presence
                        in the peninsula, ((which had been considered by some as
                        substantial)), (Reyment, 1983)…((has left little trace in the modern
                        mtDNA gene pool))." (B. C. Sykes et al. 1996). 4). "The Islamic rule
                        of Spain, which began in A.D. 711 and lasted almost 8 centuries, left
                        only a minor contribution to the current Iberian Y-chromosome pool."
                        (Bertranpetit et al. 1995; Côrte-Real et al. 1996; Pinto et al. 1996;
                        Salas et al. 1998). In fact Leonardo, signatures from other
                        populations only appear as tiny fractions of the Spanish population.
                        For example, haplogroup U6 (A Berber signature) is only found at very
                        low frequencies: 5). …"it has been found in 3 of 196 Portuguese and 2
                        of 96 Galicians"… In view of the latter "MEAGER" contribution I am
                        always bewildered why certain individuals who's knowledge about Spain
                        or molecular anthropology is all but nil will go out of their way to
                        make it seem that Spain's genetic makeup is largely Moorish; that,
                        when the latter assertion (as has been shown) is scientifically
                        untenable. I can only think it is an ulterior motive. Rather, the
                        numbers of Berber lineages have several very good explanations. 1).
                        The presence of U6 is an extremely ancient contribution dating to
                        45,000YBP. This haplotype originated in western Asia and a handful of
                        these individuals migrated to an almost empty Iberia just before the
                        R1b haplogroup arrived there. Thus, many U6 signatures are echoes of
                        an ancient handful of individuals living in Iberia prior to the LGM
                        (last glacial maximum). 2). Depending on genetic distance it could
                        also be the signature left over from the previously stated "tribute of
                        Virgins" which took place in the areas where the U6 haplogroup is
                        found). [Explanation]: It is well known that some of the women taken
                        were returned to their families, either by the payment of ransom or
                        during the rebellion of the local Christians (who found the practice
                        intolerable). Some of the women had already been raped. Thus, it is
                        very plausible since the "U6 signature is completely absent from all
                        Andalusians tested and again absent in 162 other Iberians comprising
                        the statistical population (5). (Bertranpetit et al. 1995; Côrte-Real
                        et al. 1996; Pinto et al. 1996; Salas et al. 1998), and yet present in
                        areas where the tribute took place that it is related to a genetic
                        contribution through the raped victims. There is yet a further
                        explanation. There is curious anecdotal and historical evidence as
                        concerns the populace in the stated area, which does not come as a
                        surprise to those of us that have invested considerable time studying
                        the Spanish populace. Here I mean the "Maragatos", or Moorish-Goths.
                        The latter are well attested in an old article by George Borrow
                        (1803-1881) a British evangelist and travel writer of that time.
                        (Please see the University of Adelaide Library Electronic Texts
                        Collection.) Borrow states, "The Maragatos are perhaps the most
                        singular caste to be found amongst the checquered population of Spain.
                        They have their own peculiar customs and dress, and never intermarry
                        with the Spaniards…There can be little doubt that they are a remnant
                        of those Goths who sided with the Moors on their invasion of Spain,
                        and who adopted their customs, and manner of dress, which, with the
                        exception of the first, are still to a considerable degree retained by
                        them. It is, however, evident that their blood has at no time mingled
                        with that of the wild children of the desert, for scarcely amongst the
                        hills of Norway would you find figures and faces more essentially
                        Gothic than those of the Maragatos. They are strong athletic men, but
                        loutish and heavy, and their features, though for the most part well
                        formed, are vacant and devoid of expression. They are slow and plain
                        of speech, and those eloquent and imaginative sallies so common in the
                        conversation of other Spaniards, seldom or never escape them; they
                        have, moreover, a coarse thick pronunciation, and when you hear them
                        speak, you almost imagine that it is some German or English peasant
                        attempting to express himself in the language of the Peninsula
                        (Borrow, 1840)" The latter is obviously only anecdotal, however,
                        recent findings have shed great scientific light on the Maragatos. In
                        the new study; Mitochondrial DNA characterization of European
                        isolates: the Maragatos from Spain, (Larruga JM, Diez F, Pinto et al.)
                        their uniqueness becomes clear. The study states; Mitochondrial DNA
                        analysis confirms that Maragatos from Spain are a genetically isolated
                        human group. Genetic distances between Maragatos and the comparison
                        samples are significantly different even with the Leon sample
                        (P<0.001), which shares the same geographic area as the Maragatos.
                        Although the north-African haplogroup U6 is present in them, their
                        attributed Berber origin is weakened, as this haplogroup is also
                        detected in surrounding populations with which, in addition, Maragatos
                        have the smaller genetic distances." The later only a vestige echo
                        from 45,000 years BP of the meager presence of U6 in the population
                        before the R1b became ubiquitous and homogenous in the peninsula. The
                        presence of Neolithic haplogroups (meaning haplogroups extraneous to
                        Iberia and ubiquitous in such places as the purported homeland of the
                        Goths where the R1a and I haplogroups and its haplotypes enjoy wide
                        distribution) in this sample suggests that their isolation culture was
                        not absolute until recent times." Thus the Maragatos may be an
                        isolated extant population perhaps the direct descendants of a faction
                        of Visigoths that for certain reasons remained separate from the
                        surrounding populace. At the moment however, it is too soon to
                        disclose much more or arrive at any conclusions as pertains conclusive
                        estimates of Visigoth genetic contribution in Iberia. The sampling
                        must be completed and all the markers contrasted before conclusions
                        are finalized.

                        >They also provided to the heritage by leaving customs, sayings, words
                        >and other cultural traits. As mentioned, they ruled it and left
                        >behind them significant edifications such as churches, monuments
                        >etc... and even at least one town(!) such as Reccopolis.

                        F.E.J.D. writes:
                        Concerning the Goths, Lucien Musset wrote, "…their ensuing prestige
                        among other Germans was expressed in the epic tradition for over a
                        thousand years". Undoubtedly, the Goths have been an ever-present
                        preoccupation in the minds of some Europeans since the beginning of
                        modern Europe.

                        Lastly Leonardo, Do not let others dissuade you from learning about
                        your Gothic heritage. The truth is that the Visigoths are simply and
                        undeniably an important part of Spanish history and part of the
                        Spanish populace. Those that would have you think otherwise by mere
                        opinion are sure to be uninformed or simply ignorant of history or
                        have sinister ulterior motives for doing so.

                        Cheers,
                        Frithunanths.
                        (Fernando Elatheus Jiménez-Díaz)
                      • faltin2001
                        ... that ... Spanish ... in ... spark ... your ... others. ... scholarship ... inadequately ... Iberian ... You mean the Clades Variana in 9AD? the Cherusci
                        Message 11 of 28 , May 27, 2004
                          --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, F. E. Jiménez Díaz <visigoth@a...>
                          wrote:
                          > Hello Leonardo,
                          > I missed seeing your post for an entire week, but I'm quite glad
                          that
                          > I stumbled on to it this morning.
                          > Welcome back to the Gothic-L.
                          > I am glad to read of your interest in the Visigoths of the Spanish
                          > Gothia.
                          >
                          > >--- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Leonardo Frithunanths
                          > ><frithunanths_scandza@y...> >wrote:
                          > >
                          > >Hails Allum!
                          > >
                          > >After an absence of 3 years I've returned to this list, and
                          > apparently nothing much has >changed around here, thank God. :)
                          > >
                          > >I would like to make comment on what Oscargoth once wrote.
                          > >But regarding a possible division where one part would speak
                          Spanish
                          > >and another one gothic, well, I'm not very much into the 'good old'
                          > >"Divide and conquer/rule" system, I think that we've seen too much
                          > >of that throughout history.
                          > >But I'm most definitely positive to that idea of awakening the
                          > >Spanish people into the knowledge of their glorious legacy,
                          >
                          > F.E.J.D writes:
                          > Leonardo, I think the idea of offering Spaniards more exposure to
                          > their Gothic heritage, language and culture is an interesting cause
                          > especially since at present there is a great resurgence of interest
                          in
                          > those very things, however, I am convinced that what you state can
                          > best be accomplished by allowing your interest and enthusiasm to
                          spark
                          > the same interest and enthusiasm in those around you. Get involved
                          > yourself and do not count on anyone else. In addition, along with
                          your
                          > interest, you must also be ready to supply cogent, meaningful and
                          > relevant content that will make the undertaking reasonable to
                          others.
                          > Therefore, read voraciously, learn and contrast the differing points
                          > of view and become well rounded in as many aspects of that
                          scholarship
                          > as you can.
                          > It is quite true that knowing one's history can be an enriching and
                          > positive life changing experience. It informs our worldview, and
                          > allows us to imbue with value the things that we ordinarily take for
                          > granted. It also tends to ground us in the consensus of knowledge
                          > concerning such matters so that we are not fooled by the
                          inadequately
                          > informed and/or purposely misleading opinions of other individuals.
                          >
                          > >the Visigoths, successors of the Romans and defenders of the
                          Iberian
                          > >Peninsula.
                          >
                          > F.E.J.D. writes:
                          > I am also of the opinion that the Visigoths WERE able defenders of
                          > their people as the Clades Variana



                          You mean 'the' Clades Variana in 9AD? the Cherusci (not Visigoths)
                          against the Romans?








                          and other subsequent battles inform
                          > us. Like you, I believe that they continued to defend their people
                          and
                          > homeland in Gothispania.



                          What is Gothispania?









                          > They subdued the Vandals, Suebi, Byzantines



                          The defeated both Vandals and Suebi in their capacity as Roman
                          federate troops, and spend decades battling with the Byzantines.









                          > and turned away the advances of the Franks and other menacing
                          > elements.




                          Like in 507AD? In 507 the Visigoths were defeated decisively by the
                          Franks and forced to retreat to Spain.









                          Nonetheless, human frailty is always at work. Unfortunately,
                          > the success of the Moorish invasion can be attributed to certain
                          > Visigoth factions that conspired with certain other religious and/or
                          > ethnic elements whom the Visigoths had oppressed under Sisebut
                          (among
                          > others). The latter elements allowed the passage of the Moors into
                          > Spain while Roderick was quelling an insurrection in the Basque
                          > highlands. By the time Roderick received the news, made retreat,
                          > resupplied, tasked his generals and arrived to do battle, the Moors
                          > had penetrated well into the south and were rested, rehearsed in
                          their
                          > tactics and ready to wage war. The ensuing death of Roderick put the
                          > Visigoths into disarray but the Visigoths managed, to delay the
                          > Moorish advance for some months and to keep them from taking the
                          > territories in the northern mountains, the latter allowed the time
                          and
                          > space to let a great host of nobles and warriors and their families
                          to
                          > take refuge there.



                          Where did you take that from? Most Visigothic nobles had no reason to
                          abandon their estates, because the Moors were mostly glad to let them
                          stay on as owners.








                          > Thereafter, they were successful in keeping the
                          > Moors from taking those areas.



                          It was probably mostly the typically independent minded mountain
                          people who kept the Muslims out. The Muslims would probably have been
                          able to take the regions, but they had to content with uprisings of
                          Berbers, draught etc.







                          > Those that remained in Moorish occupied
                          > lands did not fare as well.




                          Most seemed to have fared very well among the Muslims, marring into
                          Muslim families, retaining their estates.












                          The latter were subjected to extremely
                          > high taxes, curtailed freedoms, certain religious oppressions and
                          even
                          > a yearly territorial tribute of 100 virgins "having blue eyes and
                          > golden hair" who were subjected to "forcible rape" in the caliph's
                          > harems. Fortunately, the latter practice was eliminated within a
                          short
                          > time after a great revolt ensued.



                          This sounds very much like a propaganda story. Sources?







                          Such revolt and resistance to the
                          > Moors was revelatory of the things to come. As regards conditions
                          and
                          > relations under the Moors, John Crow states, "Quite unlike the
                          > Visigoths, the Moors were never able effectively to establish their
                          > dominion over Catholic Spain. By the eleventh century the battle
                          lines
                          > between the two religions were clearly drawn, and by the thirteenth
                          > century (only the southern parts of Iberia were yet occupied by the
                          > Moors, [mine]) these lines had become a part of the national folk
                          and
                          > literary tradition. Hence, the particular and very Christian point
                          of
                          > view, which comes across to us from the ballads about Rodereik, a
                          > feeble monarch who had been turned into a national legend, indicates
                          > to us how oral tradition faithfully caught and reflected the
                          > polarization of Spanish resistance to Islam (sic), (Crow, 1985).
                          Here
                          > I make two points. 1). Even after the defeat at Guadalete,
                          resistance
                          > to the invaders was consistently demonstrated. 2). Despite the
                          defeat
                          > at Guadalete (which must NOT be seen as an end to Visigothic
                          identity)
                          > the exiled Visigoths in the mountains of Asturias (quite aware of
                          > their duty to defend) remained steadfast in protecting their people
                          > and homeland. In fact, only seven years after the Moorish invasion a
                          > horde of nobles and warriors, the great majority being Visigoths
                          from
                          > the previous Toledan kingdom or their direct descendants (commanded
                          > under Pelagius - grandson of Reccesvinth),




                          Pelagius' identity is mostly unkown. That he was grandson of
                          Reccesvind is speculation at best.







                          successfully expelled
                          > Munuza, the Moorish provincial governor from the footsteps of the
                          > northern highlands. Thereafter, the defeat of Alkama at Covadonga
                          > sealed the beginning of the 700-year long but eventually successful
                          > struggle of the Reconquista. Thus, the origins of the Reconquista
                          > itself can be attributed to Pelagius, Reccesvinth's grandson who by
                          > example in leadership and political savvy was able to lead the
                          remnant
                          > Visigoths and amalgamate the forces of the Vascones and Celtic
                          people
                          > of Galicia and Asturias against the Moorish enemy. The latter was
                          the
                          > only way that massive enough forces could successfully be mustered
                          > against the enemy. It is important to note that after Covadonga and
                          > after all Moorish forces were expelled from northern Spain the
                          council
                          > of Albelda (822CE) records NOT CHURCH LEADERS or some other
                          vicarious
                          > entity but Alfons II (great-great-great-grandson of Visigothic King
                          > Reccared instituting






                          To get from Alfons II to Reccared, you probably need a couple for
                          more 'great-greats-'. Also, the exact decend of Reccared is not
                          clear. Such claims to great ancestry should be seen mostly as
                          political statements rather than geneological accuracy.







                          OMNEM GOTORUM ORDINEM SICUT TOLETO FUERAT - THE
                          > WHOLE ORGANIZATION OF THE GOTHS JUST AS IT WAS AT TOLEDO. What needs
                          > to be understood here is that the singular defeat at Guadalete
                          > (especially under its particular circumstances) cannot define and
                          > fault a lack of resolve on the part of the Visigoths to defend
                          person
                          > and homeland. Rather, it is evident in the above stated events that
                          > there was a continuation and affirmation of Visigothic identity by
                          the
                          > descendents of Visigoths in the royal lineage, nobility and warrior
                          > ranks while exiled in Asturias as well as a resolve to defend person
                          > and homeland (especially against the Moorish invaders) for centuries
                          > well after 711.




                          I think this is mostly a recreated identity. Gothic identity in Spain
                          was vanishing already in the course of the 7th century under
                          Visighothic rule. The various council documents show that the Goths
                          regarded themselves as Hispanics already at that time.







                          >
                          > >This glorious, highly intelligent and also from a
                          cultural/religious
                          > >point of view, interesting people –cut-
                          >
                          > F.E.J.D. writes:
                          > Leonardo, I am convinced that all humans are relatively intelligent;
                          > also, the word glorious is too subjective here and must be embraced
                          as
                          > a matter of opinion. Nonetheless the Visigoths must be commended for
                          > learning to survive against great odds, their incredible journey
                          > through almost an entire continent, their conquests; legal codes,
                          > artistic and architectural endeavors which devised the forerunner to
                          > Romanesque architecture and the flying buttress as well as their
                          > relentless pursuit for liberty, their contribution to the
                          preservation
                          > of certain Germanic and Roman institutions through a thoughtful
                          > synthesis of each other's ideas and most importantly, the mysterious
                          > glue that held all of the latter and their people together through
                          so
                          > much hardship for so many years. --- Wow! No wonder we are still
                          > asking questions about them…




                          Now you are surprised about their greatness and glory yourself aren't
                          you? ;-) I wonder how any human being on earth can compare to the
                          mighty, intelligent, thoughtfull, glorious master race of the
                          Visigoths?



                          >
                          > >who in modern times have most often been blemished by far too many
                          > >people(specially from the church...).
                          >
                          > F.E.J.D. writes:
                          > Leonardo, (Very Broadly) it seems (in Spain) there have been two
                          > ideological camps as concerns the Visigoths. One camp sees them
                          > generally as having made positive contributions; it weighs their
                          pros
                          > and cons in a relatively balanced way. The other - realizes their
                          > contributions but in the end sees them as uncouth barbarian
                          > interlopers that destroyed the primacy of Roman civilization. The
                          > latter I attribute to certain historical biases found in the
                          faculties
                          > of certain universities. They tend to worship everything Roman and
                          > chafe when dealing with Germanic contributions. They fail to see
                          that
                          > what the Visigoth's accomplished is part of their very loins.
                          > Fortunately it is a minority view. Nonetheless, as has been already
                          > stated the Germanic contribution be it genetic, artistic or
                          > intellectual is inescapable.
                          >





                          At least their genetic contribution to modern Spaniards will have
                          been rather minute.

                          Before you can even start to understand the contribution of the
                          Visigoths to the hisotry and culture of the Spanish peninsula, I
                          think you have to drop all this partiotic glorification. The truth,
                          as often, lies somewhere between your wishful thinking and those who
                          discount everything non-Roman.

                          Certainly, the Visigoths had to overcome great difficulties. After
                          king Euric, they were cast into disarray. Chased from Gaul by the
                          Franks and remaining so weak that the Ostrogoths had to run Spain for
                          them for a while. Much of the 6th century Visigothic reign remained
                          chaotic. Only at the very end of the 6th century do we see a
                          resurgens of Visigothic kingship in Spain. Their conversion to
                          Catholicism at the time was certainly helpful, but they nontheless
                          failed to rally the Spanish population as a whole. Large parts of
                          Spanish society, including many Visigothic nobles prefered foreign
                          rule to that of their own kings, which inevitably led to the
                          catastroph in 711.


                          Cheers
                          Dirk
                        • faltin2001
                          ... the ... There is so much wrong with this text that I point out only a few things. The Visigoths were certainly not the largest of all Germanic tribes.
                          Message 12 of 28 , May 27, 2004
                            >
                            > F.E.J.D. writes:
                            > Presently Leonardo, genetic haplotyping has minimized the inaccuracy
                            > of population studies, which relied solely on historical data,
                            > craniometry and typology and other circuitous and highly
                            > interpretational methods. No longer do we have to accept unreliable
                            > and/or sometimes "ulterior" subjective opinions on such things as
                            the
                            > genetic contribution of people groups such as Visigoths (the largest
                            > of ALL Germanic tribes)




                            There is so much wrong with this text that I point out only a few
                            things. The Visigoths were certainly not the largest of all Germanic
                            tribes. Franks, Saxons, Alamannians, Anglo-Saxons, Bavarians and the
                            North Germanic peoples were all much larger than the Visigoths.












                            to the Spanish population. Simply by
                            > understanding, contrasting and comparing the relevant haplogroups
                            and
                            > haplotypes within a given population one is able to tell if there
                            has
                            > been any extraneous admixture. It is interesting however that before
                            > there was haplotyping it had been thought (quite correctly) by many
                            > scholars, (including Bury), that the Visigoths numbered
                            approximately
                            > 300,000 in a peninsula of (at the time)






                            This is likely far to high a number. More like 100,000 perhaps more
                            and many of them were, according to the historical sources, hangers
                            on. Runaway Roman peasants, slaves, Roman mine workers and so on, who
                            joined the Visigoths on their way to Spain.







                            [3,500,000 inhabitants
                            > (Kenneth W. Harl, Tulane U. 1998)]. Likewise, (Stanley Payne, 1973)
                            > concluded that the same number existed after the time of Alaric II
                            > (484-507); a ratio of (11.66) to (1). The later ratio is in fact
                            close
                            > to the present ratio of African-Americans to European Americans in
                            the
                            > U.S, a sizable element in the overall population. Even so, it is
                            > further thought that despite pressures from disease etc; the
                            > Visigothic law of "thirds", (where 2/3 of each Hispano-Roman villa
                            was
                            > confiscated by Visigoths), would have given the Visigoths a greater
                            > advantage in increasing their numbers, that, since the ability to
                            > raise comestibles by having more land and better soils would have
                            > favored Visigoth families over those who had poor soil and less land
                            > and could not raise as much food. Furthermore, by projecting the
                            > previous trend to 711CE (a period of some 200 years) it is quite
                            > conceivable that the Visigoths could have narrowed the previously
                            > stated ratio to as little as 10 to 1. You must also notice that I
                            have
                            > not factored-in other people Germanic people already in the
                            peninsula,
                            > they are simply not included as part of the Visigothic population,
                            > namely the Suebi, which probably numbered around 80,000, and the
                            > remnant Vandals that remained in Spain or returned to the Balearic
                            > Islands and elsewhere after their ruinous mission to the south,
                            > however these were probably few. – Nonetheless, underpinning the
                            best
                            > estimate of Visigoth admixture in Spain is the presence of suspect
                            > genetic signatures in the Y-chromosome and/or mtDNA of extant
                            > individuals where an inference may be made. The latter is in the
                            > process of being collected from the extant populations of (Spain,
                            > Pomerania, Gotland, and Southern Sweden as well as other suspected
                            > homelands.






                            One cannot, but smile and shake ones head at such nonsense.
                            I am sure you will succeed in calculating the Spanish into a Germanic
                            people, strange only that most of them just don't look the part;-)

                            Dirk
                          • Jorge Alexandre S G
                            It was very comforting to read this superb and scientifically based posting, which clears up the other one which arrogantly belittled the Visigothic
                            Message 13 of 28 , May 27, 2004
                              It was very comforting to read this superb and scientifically based posting, which clears up the other one which arrogantly belittled the Visigothic contribution to the Iberic Peninsula. It seems that many scholars nowadays are actually politically biased ,which shows in itself the great danger of science being seen as truely neutral, as I once learned when I took one year of Social Sciences ,cause its objectivity is only an ideal,its being highly influenced by many subjective and political reasons.
                              Congratulations mr Díaz, you are a true sage .
                              Jorge Alexandre

                              F. E. Jiménez Díaz <visigoth@...> wrote:
                              Hello Leonardo,
                              I missed seeing your post for an entire week, but I'm quite glad that
                              I stumbled on to it this morning.
                              Welcome back to the Gothic-L.
                              I am glad to read of your interest in the Visigoths of the Spanish
                              Gothia.

                              >--- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Leonardo Frithunanths
                              ><frithunanths_scandza@y...> >wrote:
                              >
                              >Hails Allum!
                              >
                              >After an absence of 3 years I've returned to this list, and
                              apparently nothing much has >changed around here, thank God. :)
                              >
                              >I would like to make comment on what Oscargoth once wrote.
                              >But regarding a possible division where one part would speak Spanish
                              >and another one gothic, well, I'm not very much into the 'good old'
                              >"Divide and conquer/rule" system, I think that we've seen too much
                              >of that throughout history.
                              >But I'm most definitely positive to that idea of awakening the
                              >Spanish people into the knowledge of their glorious legacy,

                              F.E.J.D writes:
                              Leonardo, I think the idea of offering Spaniards more exposure to
                              their Gothic heritage, language and culture is an interesting cause
                              especially since at present there is a great resurgence of interest in
                              those very things, however, I am convinced that what you state can
                              best be accomplished by allowing your interest and enthusiasm to spark
                              the same interest and enthusiasm in those around you. Get involved
                              yourself and do not count on anyone else. In addition, along with your
                              interest, you must also be ready to supply cogent, meaningful and
                              relevant content that will make the undertaking reasonable to others.
                              Therefore, read voraciously, learn and contrast the differing points
                              of view and become well rounded in as many aspects of that scholarship
                              as you can.
                              It is quite true that knowing one's history can be an enriching and
                              positive life changing experience. It informs our worldview, and
                              allows us to imbue with value the things that we ordinarily take for
                              granted. It also tends to ground us in the consensus of knowledge
                              concerning such matters so that we are not fooled by the inadequately
                              informed and/or purposely misleading opinions of other individuals.

                              >the Visigoths, successors of the Romans and defenders of the Iberian
                              >Peninsula.

                              F.E.J.D. writes:
                              I am also of the opinion that the Visigoths WERE able defenders of
                              their people as the Clades Variana and other subsequent battles inform
                              us. Like you, I believe that they continued to defend their people and
                              homeland in Gothispania. They subdued the Vandals, Suebi, Byzantines
                              and turned away the advances of the Franks and other menacing
                              elements. Nonetheless, human frailty is always at work. Unfortunately,
                              the success of the Moorish invasion can be attributed to certain
                              Visigoth factions that conspired with certain other religious and/or
                              ethnic elements whom the Visigoths had oppressed under Sisebut (among
                              others). The latter elements allowed the passage of the Moors into
                              Spain while Roderick was quelling an insurrection in the Basque
                              highlands. By the time Roderick received the news, made retreat,
                              resupplied, tasked his generals and arrived to do battle, the Moors
                              had penetrated well into the south and were rested, rehearsed in their
                              tactics and ready to wage war. The ensuing death of Roderick put the
                              Visigoths into disarray but the Visigoths managed, to delay the
                              Moorish advance for some months and to keep them from taking the
                              territories in the northern mountains, the latter allowed the time and
                              space to let a great host of nobles and warriors and their families to
                              take refuge there. Thereafter, they were successful in keeping the
                              Moors from taking those areas. Those that remained in Moorish occupied
                              lands did not fare as well. The latter were subjected to extremely
                              high taxes, curtailed freedoms, certain religious oppressions and even
                              a yearly territorial tribute of 100 virgins "having blue eyes and
                              golden hair" who were subjected to "forcible rape" in the caliph's
                              harems. Fortunately, the latter practice was eliminated within a short
                              time after a great revolt ensued. Such revolt and resistance to the
                              Moors was revelatory of the things to come. As regards conditions and
                              relations under the Moors, John Crow states, "Quite unlike the
                              Visigoths, the Moors were never able effectively to establish their
                              dominion over Catholic Spain. By the eleventh century the battle lines
                              between the two religions were clearly drawn, and by the thirteenth
                              century (only the southern parts of Iberia were yet occupied by the
                              Moors, [mine]) these lines had become a part of the national folk and
                              literary tradition. Hence, the particular and very Christian point of
                              view, which comes across to us from the ballads about Rodereik, a
                              feeble monarch who had been turned into a national legend, indicates
                              to us how oral tradition faithfully caught and reflected the
                              polarization of Spanish resistance to Islam (sic), (Crow, 1985). Here
                              I make two points. 1). Even after the defeat at Guadalete, resistance
                              to the invaders was consistently demonstrated. 2). Despite the defeat
                              at Guadalete (which must NOT be seen as an end to Visigothic identity)
                              the exiled Visigoths in the mountains of Asturias (quite aware of
                              their duty to defend) remained steadfast in protecting their people
                              and homeland. In fact, only seven years after the Moorish invasion a
                              horde of nobles and warriors, the great majority being Visigoths from
                              the previous Toledan kingdom or their direct descendants (commanded
                              under Pelagius - grandson of Reccesvinth), successfully expelled
                              Munuza, the Moorish provincial governor from the footsteps of the
                              northern highlands. Thereafter, the defeat of Alkama at Covadonga
                              sealed the beginning of the 700-year long but eventually successful
                              struggle of the Reconquista. Thus, the origins of the Reconquista
                              itself can be attributed to Pelagius, Reccesvinth's grandson who by
                              example in leadership and political savvy was able to lead the remnant
                              Visigoths and amalgamate the forces of the Vascones and Celtic people
                              of Galicia and Asturias against the Moorish enemy. The latter was the
                              only way that massive enough forces could successfully be mustered
                              against the enemy. It is important to note that after Covadonga and
                              after all Moorish forces were expelled from northern Spain the council
                              of Albelda (822CE) records NOT CHURCH LEADERS or some other vicarious
                              entity but Alfons II (great-great-great-grandson of Visigothic King
                              Reccared instituting OMNEM GOTORUM ORDINEM SICUT TOLETO FUERAT - THE
                              WHOLE ORGANIZATION OF THE GOTHS JUST AS IT WAS AT TOLEDO. What needs
                              to be understood here is that the singular defeat at Guadalete
                              (especially under its particular circumstances) cannot define and
                              fault a lack of resolve on the part of the Visigoths to defend person
                              and homeland. Rather, it is evident in the above stated events that
                              there was a continuation and affirmation of Visigothic identity by the
                              descendents of Visigoths in the royal lineage, nobility and warrior
                              ranks while exiled in Asturias as well as a resolve to defend person
                              and homeland (especially against the Moorish invaders) for centuries
                              well after 711.

                              >This glorious, highly intelligent and also from a cultural/religious
                              >point of view, interesting people –cut-

                              F.E.J.D. writes:
                              Leonardo, I am convinced that all humans are relatively intelligent;
                              also, the word glorious is too subjective here and must be embraced as
                              a matter of opinion. Nonetheless the Visigoths must be commended for
                              learning to survive against great odds, their incredible journey
                              through almost an entire continent, their conquests; legal codes,
                              artistic and architectural endeavors which devised the forerunner to
                              Romanesque architecture and the flying buttress as well as their
                              relentless pursuit for liberty, their contribution to the preservation
                              of certain Germanic and Roman institutions through a thoughtful
                              synthesis of each other's ideas and most importantly, the mysterious
                              glue that held all of the latter and their people together through so
                              much hardship for so many years. --- Wow! No wonder we are still
                              asking questions about them…

                              >who in modern times have most often been blemished by far too many
                              >people(specially from the church...).

                              F.E.J.D. writes:
                              Leonardo, (Very Broadly) it seems (in Spain) there have been two
                              ideological camps as concerns the Visigoths. One camp sees them
                              generally as having made positive contributions; it weighs their pros
                              and cons in a relatively balanced way. The other - realizes their
                              contributions but in the end sees them as uncouth barbarian
                              interlopers that destroyed the primacy of Roman civilization. The
                              latter I attribute to certain historical biases found in the faculties
                              of certain universities. They tend to worship everything Roman and
                              chafe when dealing with Germanic contributions. They fail to see that
                              what the Visigoth's accomplished is part of their very loins.
                              Fortunately it is a minority view. Nonetheless, as has been already
                              stated the Germanic contribution be it genetic, artistic or
                              intellectual is inescapable.

                              >For me it seems extremely reasonable to do all this (except for the
                              >division of Spain) considering the following things:
                              >In Spain there's today a growing awareness of their celtic heritage,
                              >very much expressed in e.g newly founded cultural groups and feasts.
                              >Euskera needs no further introduction considering the great
                              >importance that it already enjoys in today's Northern Spain.
                              >Regarding Iberian, well.. very little is known still today about this
                              >ancient language and apparently those who understand it, even a
                              >little bit, are all scientists or amateur scientists. Arabic is
                              >taught in Spain at several Institutions and besides, today's spanish
                              >urban citizens have a close contact with them and their culture
                              >considering the vast amount of arabic inmigrants that live in Spain
                              >today.

                              >Latin and the cultures that it spawned has, is and will most
                              >definitely always be taught at schools, universities and other
                              >institutions throughout Spain.

                              >It therefore leaves us with the Gothic discourse. As people in Spain
                              >are taught in history about the Romans, La Reconquista and the
                              >Moors(+ the very, very little that is also taught about the Iberians,
                              >Basques, Greeks, Phoenicians, Celts/Celtiberians, Alans and the
                              >Germanic tribes).

                              F.E.J.D. writes:
                              Leonardo, the latter is part of the bias that I just explained.

                              >Spanish is being taught, as well as other languages which have
                              >nothing much to do with the Peninsula such as English or French. Why
                              >can't Gothic be taught then?


                              F.E.J.D. writes:
                              Interestingly, Leonardo, I know of someone who is in the process of
                              home schooling his children and he and his wife have been teaching
                              them Old English and Gothic. The children are incredibly bright and
                              have already mastered several known languages. In my own experience,
                              language is best learned at an early age, and as I found out while
                              taking the course anthropological linguistics during my baccalaureate,
                              it develops our "metalinguistic awareness", which further serves us in
                              attaining mastery over yet other languages. -- Nonetheless Leonardo,
                              language is only part of the whole; a comprehensive understanding of
                              the Goths and Visigoths as well as other relevant Germanic tribes must
                              encompass all aspects of those cultures. To that end I wonder if a
                              (less passive) forum should be created where members are more actively
                              led, engaged, and encouraged to publish and/or discuss good articles
                              and anecdotes on relevant Germanic and Gothic/Visigothic languages,
                              culture, history, anthropology and all other aspects of relevant
                              Germanic and Gothic/Visigothic scholarship. The group should also have
                              a web page and also accommodate people posting in other languages.
                              Perhaps I'll look into creating such a list myself. My only concern
                              would be not to negatively impact this lists member base. I do not
                              think it would. Also, my suggestion should not be construed as
                              negative criticism of the (Gothic-L). In fact, I corresponded with the
                              founders before they created it was the third person to join after the
                              owners. Thereafter, I announced this groups formation in "Oldnorsenet"
                              (an old defunct forum) and quite a few joined-up forming the group's
                              earliest member base. Rather, this list could remain just as it is,
                              especially with its strong expertise as concerns questions about the
                              Gothic language for which it is an excellent resource and with which
                              it is often preoccupied.

                              >Considering that they did establish themselves on the Peninsula, they
                              >ruled and influenced it forever by mixing themselves with the rest of
                              >the population.

                              F.E.J.D. writes:
                              Presently Leonardo, genetic haplotyping has minimized the inaccuracy
                              of population studies, which relied solely on historical data,
                              craniometry and typology and other circuitous and highly
                              interpretational methods. No longer do we have to accept unreliable
                              and/or sometimes "ulterior" subjective opinions on such things as the
                              genetic contribution of people groups such as Visigoths (the largest
                              of ALL Germanic tribes) to the Spanish population. Simply by
                              understanding, contrasting and comparing the relevant haplogroups and
                              haplotypes within a given population one is able to tell if there has
                              been any extraneous admixture. It is interesting however that before
                              there was haplotyping it had been thought (quite correctly) by many
                              scholars, (including Bury), that the Visigoths numbered approximately
                              300,000 in a peninsula of (at the time) [3,500,000 inhabitants
                              (Kenneth W. Harl, Tulane U. 1998)]. Likewise, (Stanley Payne, 1973)
                              concluded that the same number existed after the time of Alaric II
                              (484-507); a ratio of (11.66) to (1). The later ratio is in fact close
                              to the present ratio of African-Americans to European Americans in the
                              U.S, a sizable element in the overall population. Even so, it is
                              further thought that despite pressures from disease etc; the
                              Visigothic law of "thirds", (where 2/3 of each Hispano-Roman villa was
                              confiscated by Visigoths), would have given the Visigoths a greater
                              advantage in increasing their numbers, that, since the ability to
                              raise comestibles by having more land and better soils would have
                              favored Visigoth families over those who had poor soil and less land
                              and could not raise as much food. Furthermore, by projecting the
                              previous trend to 711CE (a period of some 200 years) it is quite
                              conceivable that the Visigoths could have narrowed the previously
                              stated ratio to as little as 10 to 1. You must also notice that I have
                              not factored-in other people Germanic people already in the peninsula,
                              they are simply not included as part of the Visigothic population,
                              namely the Suebi, which probably numbered around 80,000, and the
                              remnant Vandals that remained in Spain or returned to the Balearic
                              Islands and elsewhere after their ruinous mission to the south,
                              however these were probably few. – Nonetheless, underpinning the best
                              estimate of Visigoth admixture in Spain is the presence of suspect
                              genetic signatures in the Y-chromosome and/or mtDNA of extant
                              individuals where an inference may be made. The latter is in the
                              process of being collected from the extant populations of (Spain,
                              Pomerania, Gotland, and Southern Sweden as well as other suspected
                              homelands. It is also being collected from bone found in known
                              Gothic/Visigothic necropoli confirmed during archaeological excavation
                              through sartorial fashion, jewelry and other relevant artifacts.
                              Unfortunately, this study has been and will be underway for quite
                              sometime since it is quite comprehensive and the collection and
                              amplification of ancient materials is a slow process and/or has to be
                              done with great care and covers such an extensive geographical area.
                              Similar but smaller studies have been done by Dr. Brian Sykes to
                              estimate the Norse Viking admixture in Britain and Iceland. Dr. Sykes,
                              author of the "Seven Daughters of Eve" (a fantastic read that I highly
                              recommend).

                              [Explanation follows] (During the Last Glacial Maximum, about 18,000
                              years ago, the people bearing the R1b haplogroup over wintered in
                              Northern Spain (a refugium). After the glacial retreat about 12,000
                              years before present, R1b began a migration to the north in large
                              numbers and to the east in lesser numbers. "R1b probably arrived in
                              Spain from the east some 30,000 years ago among the Paleolithic or
                              "old stone age" peoples and is considered to be aboriginal to Europe.
                              They absorbed and/or replaced the handful of inhabitants living in
                              those areas. R1b is most concentrated in the population of the Basques
                              and nearby areas of Northern Spain as well as Wales and western
                              Ireland. It is at nearly 100% in those areas likely due to their
                              geographical isolation curtailing immigration. In other words, the
                              latter populations are among the most homogenous or (unmixed)
                              populations in Europe, almost exclusively comprised of the R1b
                              haplogroup and having almost no other haplogroup signatures in them.
                              Further east R1b attains a distribution of 70% in the Low-countries
                              and about 55% in places thought to be the contributing populations of
                              the Anglo-Saxon and Danish tribes and also thins-out in its
                              northernmost cline- Norway, where it is at 30%. The latter is current
                              standard knowledge in the DNA concordances of Europe and well
                              supported in a plethora of studies by numerous universities. "Everyone
                              who has the R1b is a descendant in the male line from an individual
                              known as "the patriarch" since his descendants account for over 40% of
                              all the chromosomes of Europe. This haplogroup is characteristic of
                              the Basques whose language is probably that of the first R1b, and who
                              are genetically the closest to the original R1b population (which
                              probably amounted to only a few thousand individuals)." (Source: Dr.
                              David Faux). Now Leonardo – In order to contrast the genetic
                              Contribution that may have come by way of other groups such as the
                              Visigoths against the Spanish population at large, it is important to
                              understand the aforementioned, as well as the signatures of nearby
                              populations. However, the genetic neighborhood around Spain is either
                              very similar (in the case of western France and the British Isles
                              declining to the north and east, or radically different such as in the
                              case of the populations of Northern Africa which originate from
                              distinctly different patrilineages. To that end I include the
                              following citations and several of my own findings: 1). "It is now
                              understood that the Strait of Gibraltar seems to have acted as a
                              strong (although not complete) barrier to gene flow…" (Bosch et al.,
                              Am J Hum Genet, 2001) . 2). "The majority of Iberian lineages resemble
                              those of central and northern Europe (Richards et al. 1996). 3). "It
                              seems therefore that the genetic contribution by the Moorish presence
                              in the peninsula, ((which had been considered by some as
                              substantial)), (Reyment, 1983)…((has left little trace in the modern
                              mtDNA gene pool))." (B. C. Sykes et al. 1996). 4). "The Islamic rule
                              of Spain, which began in A.D. 711 and lasted almost 8 centuries, left
                              only a minor contribution to the current Iberian Y-chromosome pool."
                              (Bertranpetit et al. 1995; Côrte-Real et al. 1996; Pinto et al. 1996;
                              Salas et al. 1998). In fact Leonardo, signatures from other
                              populations only appear as tiny fractions of the Spanish population.
                              For example, haplogroup U6 (A Berber signature) is only found at very
                              low frequencies: 5). …"it has been found in 3 of 196 Portuguese and 2
                              of 96 Galicians"… In view of the latter "MEAGER" contribution I am
                              always bewildered why certain individuals who's knowledge about Spain
                              or molecular anthropology is all but nil will go out of their way to
                              make it seem that Spain's genetic makeup is largely Moorish; that,
                              when the latter assertion (as has been shown) is scientifically
                              untenable. I can only think it is an ulterior motive. Rather, the
                              numbers of Berber lineages have several very good explanations. 1).
                              The presence of U6 is an extremely ancient contribution dating to
                              45,000YBP. This haplotype originated in western Asia and a handful of
                              these individuals migrated to an almost empty Iberia just before the
                              R1b haplogroup arrived there. Thus, many U6 signatures are echoes of
                              an ancient handful of individuals living in Iberia prior to the LGM
                              (last glacial maximum). 2). Depending on genetic distance it could
                              also be the signature left over from the previously stated "tribute of
                              Virgins" which took place in the areas where the U6 haplogroup is
                              found). [Explanation]: It is well known that some of the women taken
                              were returned to their families, either by the payment of ransom or
                              during the rebellion of the local Christians (who found the practice
                              intolerable). Some of the women had already been raped. Thus, it is
                              very plausible since the "U6 signature is completely absent from all
                              Andalusians tested and again absent in 162 other Iberians comprising
                              the statistical population (5). (Bertranpetit et al. 1995; Côrte-Real
                              et al. 1996; Pinto et al. 1996; Salas et al. 1998), and yet present in
                              areas where the tribute took place that it is related to a genetic
                              contribution through the raped victims. There is yet a further
                              explanation. There is curious anecdotal and historical evidence as
                              concerns the populace in the stated area, which does not come as a
                              surprise to those of us that have invested considerable time studying
                              the Spanish populace. Here I mean the "Maragatos", or Moorish-Goths.
                              The latter are well attested in an old article by George Borrow
                              (1803-1881) a British evangelist and travel writer of that time.
                              (Please see the University of Adelaide Library Electronic Texts
                              Collection.) Borrow states, "The Maragatos are perhaps the most
                              singular caste to be found amongst the checquered population of Spain.
                              They have their own peculiar customs and dress, and never intermarry
                              with the Spaniards…There can be little doubt that they are a remnant
                              of those Goths who sided with the Moors on their invasion of Spain,
                              and who adopted their customs, and manner of dress, which, with the
                              exception of the first, are still to a considerable degree retained by
                              them. It is, however, evident that their blood has at no time mingled
                              with that of the wild children of the desert, for scarcely amongst the
                              hills of Norway would you find figures and faces more essentially
                              Gothic than those of the Maragatos. They are strong athletic men, but
                              loutish and heavy, and their features, though for the most part well
                              formed, are vacant and devoid of expression. They are slow and plain
                              of speech, and those eloquent and imaginative sallies so common in the
                              conversation of other Spaniards, seldom or never escape them; they
                              have, moreover, a coarse thick pronunciation, and when you hear them
                              speak, you almost imagine that it is some German or English peasant
                              attempting to express himself in the language of the Peninsula
                              (Borrow, 1840)" The latter is obviously only anecdotal, however,
                              recent findings have shed great scientific light on the Maragatos. In
                              the new study; Mitochondrial DNA characterization of European
                              isolates: the Maragatos from Spain, (Larruga JM, Diez F, Pinto et al.)
                              their uniqueness becomes clear. The study states; Mitochondrial DNA
                              analysis confirms that Maragatos from Spain are a genetically isolated
                              human group. Genetic distances between Maragatos and the comparison
                              samples are significantly different even with the Leon sample
                              (P<0.001), which shares the same geographic area as the Maragatos.
                              Although the north-African haplogroup U6 is present in them, their
                              attributed Berber origin is weakened, as this haplogroup is also
                              detected in surrounding populations with which, in addition, Maragatos
                              have the smaller genetic distances." The later only a vestige echo
                              from 45,000 years BP of the meager presence of U6 in the population
                              before the R1b became ubiquitous and homogenous in the peninsula. The
                              presence of Neolithic haplogroups (meaning haplogroups extraneous to
                              Iberia and ubiquitous in such places as the purported homeland of the
                              Goths where the R1a and I haplogroups and its haplotypes enjoy wide
                              distribution) in this sample suggests that their isolation culture was
                              not absolute until recent times." Thus the Maragatos may be an
                              isolated extant population perhaps the direct descendants of a faction
                              of Visigoths that for certain reasons remained separate from the
                              surrounding populace. At the moment however, it is too soon to
                              disclose much more or arrive at any conclusions as pertains conclusive
                              estimates of Visigoth genetic contribution in Iberia. The sampling
                              must be completed and all the markers contrasted before conclusions
                              are finalized.

                              >They also provided to the heritage by leaving customs, sayings, words
                              >and other cultural traits. As mentioned, they ruled it and left
                              >behind them significant edifications such as churches, monuments
                              >etc... and even at least one town(!) such as Reccopolis.

                              F.E.J.D. writes:
                              Concerning the Goths, Lucien Musset wrote, "…their ensuing prestige
                              among other Germans was expressed in the epic tradition for over a
                              thousand years". Undoubtedly, the Goths have been an ever-present
                              preoccupation in the minds of some Europeans since the beginning of
                              modern Europe.

                              Lastly Leonardo, Do not let others dissuade you from learning about
                              your Gothic heritage. The truth is that the Visigoths are simply and
                              undeniably an important part of Spanish history and part of the
                              Spanish populace. Those that would have you think otherwise by mere
                              opinion are sure to be uninformed or simply ignorant of history or
                              have sinister ulterior motives for doing so.

                              Cheers,
                              Frithunanths.
                              (Fernando Elatheus Jiménez-Díaz)




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                            • cheyenne nicole
                              faltin2001 wrote: hey everyone....I won t be on the computer for a while. so if i don t respond to anything you guys send me its not
                              Message 14 of 28 , May 28, 2004
                                faltin2001 <dirk@...> wrote:> hey everyone....I won't be on the computer for a while. so if i don't respond to anything you guys send me its not because i'm rude. Bye Have fun!
                                > F.E.J.D. writes:
                                > Presently Leonardo, genetic haplotyping has minimized the inaccuracy
                                > of population studies, which relied solely on historical data,
                                > craniometry and typology and other circuitous and highly
                                > interpretational methods. No longer do we have to accept unreliable
                                > and/or sometimes "ulterior" subjective opinions on such things as
                                the
                                > genetic contribution of people groups such as Visigoths (the largest
                                > of ALL Germanic tribes)




                                There is so much wrong with this text that I point out only a few
                                things. The Visigoths were certainly not the largest of all Germanic
                                tribes. Franks, Saxons, Alamannians, Anglo-Saxons, Bavarians and the
                                North Germanic peoples were all much larger than the Visigoths.












                                to the Spanish population. Simply by
                                > understanding, contrasting and comparing the relevant haplogroups
                                and
                                > haplotypes within a given population one is able to tell if there
                                has
                                > been any extraneous admixture. It is interesting however that before
                                > there was haplotyping it had been thought (quite correctly) by many
                                > scholars, (including Bury), that the Visigoths numbered
                                approximately
                                > 300,000 in a peninsula of (at the time)






                                This is likely far to high a number. More like 100,000 perhaps more
                                and many of them were, according to the historical sources, hangers
                                on. Runaway Roman peasants, slaves, Roman mine workers and so on, who
                                joined the Visigoths on their way to Spain.







                                [3,500,000 inhabitants
                                > (Kenneth W. Harl, Tulane U. 1998)]. Likewise, (Stanley Payne, 1973)
                                > concluded that the same number existed after the time of Alaric II
                                > (484-507); a ratio of (11.66) to (1). The later ratio is in fact
                                close
                                > to the present ratio of African-Americans to European Americans in
                                the
                                > U.S, a sizable element in the overall population. Even so, it is
                                > further thought that despite pressures from disease etc; the
                                > Visigothic law of "thirds", (where 2/3 of each Hispano-Roman villa
                                was
                                > confiscated by Visigoths), would have given the Visigoths a greater
                                > advantage in increasing their numbers, that, since the ability to
                                > raise comestibles by having more land and better soils would have
                                > favored Visigoth families over those who had poor soil and less land
                                > and could not raise as much food. Furthermore, by projecting the
                                > previous trend to 711CE (a period of some 200 years) it is quite
                                > conceivable that the Visigoths could have narrowed the previously
                                > stated ratio to as little as 10 to 1. You must also notice that I
                                have
                                > not factored-in other people Germanic people already in the
                                peninsula,
                                > they are simply not included as part of the Visigothic population,
                                > namely the Suebi, which probably numbered around 80,000, and the
                                > remnant Vandals that remained in Spain or returned to the Balearic
                                > Islands and elsewhere after their ruinous mission to the south,
                                > however these were probably few. � Nonetheless, underpinning the
                                best
                                > estimate of Visigoth admixture in Spain is the presence of suspect
                                > genetic signatures in the Y-chromosome and/or mtDNA of extant
                                > individuals where an inference may be made. The latter is in the
                                > process of being collected from the extant populations of (Spain,
                                > Pomerania, Gotland, and Southern Sweden as well as other suspected
                                > homelands.






                                One cannot, but smile and shake ones head at such nonsense.
                                I am sure you will succeed in calculating the Spanish into a Germanic
                                people, strange only that most of them just don't look the part;-)

                                Dirk





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                                Cheyenne

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                              • F. E. Jiménez Díaz
                                My goodness Herr Faltin, My post seems to have made you become unhinged. Please be assured that my intention was not to make you uncomfortable or have you take
                                Message 15 of 28 , May 28, 2004
                                  My goodness Herr Faltin,
                                  My post seems to have made you become unhinged. Please be assured that
                                  my intention was not to make you uncomfortable or have you take a
                                  flight of fancy as you have done trying to deconstruct what I have
                                  written.
                                  Indeed I do hope that we are able to correct one another's mistakes
                                  when mistakes are made but we should do so politely and cogently. I do
                                  admit that in haste I substituted Varus for Valens but that is all,
                                  (very similar names you know) about which you made some hay. Most
                                  decent people would have rather politely pointed to the oversight.
                                  Even so, though not a historically accepted appellation I will choose
                                  to call Alaric's Gothic Victory over Valens, the "Clades Valensiana"
                                  (sic).
                                  Furthermore, my observation of your comportment stands. - I carefully
                                  read through your posts #7601 and 7602. Your efforts were not
                                  rebuttals but reactions, so strident, so uninformed and so
                                  misrepresentative of ideas that I would not have answered them had I
                                  not read to the very end where you make a deliberate ad hominem
                                  attack, and even worse, a slur I shall not dignify. You sir, have done
                                  great harm to whatever credibility you might have had in these groups.
                                  It is also a disservice to the members of this list to demonstrate
                                  such unprofessional behavior.

                                  I hope everyone will read this and my next post in its entirety and
                                  let things stand on their merit. Even so, I am still willing to
                                  apologize if my original post made you uncomfortable in any way.

                                  And by the way, Also, I am quite aware of your diversionary tactics
                                  when challenging someone's ideas. First you immediately discredit
                                  their ideas with a cautionary preamble making it seem as though your
                                  intellect has detected some heresy and putting them on the defensive.
                                  Then you will selectively parse sentences to make things seem what
                                  they are not. Then you will insert your opinion where it suits
                                  (without giving content or sources) while on the other hand demanding
                                  them of everyone else. Lastly you close with dismissive comments that
                                  make it appear you are right when in fact many times you have only
                                  inserted mere OPINION. ---------- Too bad for you though, the latter
                                  seems to work only with people who are not sufficiently aware of
                                  history, uncritical of ideas or are in awe of your opinion.

                                  I came to this group from ONN "Oldnorsenet" then with my screen name
                                  of Frodenand and have been here since the under different screen names
                                  as I have changed computers and locations. Interestingly, through that
                                  time I have never had to defend myself in this way. I beg the lists
                                  apology for having to do it, but I cannot let such insults and
                                  baseless assertions stand. I promise that I will not return comments
                                  nor mention these matters again after I post my two responses.

                                  > > F.E.J.D. writes:
                                  > > Presently Leonardo, genetic haplotyping has minimized the inaccuracy
                                  > > of population studies, which relied solely on historical data,
                                  > > craniometry and typology and other circuitous and highly
                                  > > interpretational methods. No longer do we have to accept > >
                                  unreliable
                                  > > and/or sometimes "ulterior" subjective opinions on such things as
                                  > the
                                  > > genetic contribution of people groups such as Visigoths (the largest
                                  > > of ALL Germanic tribes)
                                  >
                                  >
                                  Faltin writes:
                                  >
                                  > There is so much wrong with this text that I point out only a few
                                  > things. The Visigoths were certainly not the largest of all Germanic
                                  > tribes. Franks, Saxons, Alamannians, Anglo-Saxons, Bavarians and the
                                  >North Germanic peoples were all much larger than the >Visigoths.

                                  F.E.J.D. writes:
                                  First of all, please provide sources and content and stop hiding
                                  behind your opinion.
                                  Give us population numbers and approximate dates with citations for
                                  all of the people groups you state.

                                  Secondly, it is a matter of historic fact that there were only three
                                  sizable Germanic tribes in Iberia (the Visigoths, Vandals and Suebi)
                                  and the Visigoths were by far the largest.
                                  Actually, people would have read my thought in its correct context had
                                  you not snipped the text at the point which you inserted your
                                  comments. The way it is snipped and separated by your comments (at mid
                                  sentence) is rather convenient though. Is it not?
                                  Now that you brought up the "Franks, Saxons, Alamannians,
                                  Anglo-Saxons, Bavarians and the North Germanic peoples" as being
                                  larger, you must prove the point.
                                  Again - give us population numbers and approximate dates with
                                  citations for all of the people groups you state. ---- However, you
                                  will surely encounter that tribal groups in Europe at the time I cite
                                  population numbers for the Visigoths (who's estimated population has
                                  some verifiability) are extremely difficult to attain since these
                                  purported tribes were extremely amorphous entities having few
                                  verifiable geographic delineations, and in an almost constant process
                                  of blending in and out of disparate groups. Therefore arriving at
                                  meaningful population numbers is extremely difficult. The latter is
                                  certainly so for the West Germans, (who were mainly farmers), since
                                  certain of the West German tribes we have come to know; the Franks and
                                  Saxons, were amalgamations of many smaller people groups having loose
                                  ties. The latter is especially true of the Alemanni, the tribal group
                                  from which some European states derive their name for the modern state
                                  of Germany. The name Aleman simply means "all men" denoting a melting
                                  pot of the checkerboard of people sharing similar culture that came to
                                  be known as Germany.
                                  . The Alemanni were in fact a composite nation formed from the Suevian
                                  and other tribes, on the upper Rhine; same goes for the Franks. People
                                  on the lower Rhine formed a "loose" conglomerate under that name. In
                                  fact, most of the tribes in Central Europe remained largely amorphous
                                  and unfocused until quite late, as is the case of the Franks who
                                  largely remain that way until just before the time they are reported
                                  as harassing the Visigoths.
                                  Interestingly, quite often scholars have questioned the extent to
                                  which these small tribes were committed to one another or to a larger
                                  parent tribe. The only evidence of such is a text of Ammianus
                                  Marcellinus that refers to the pactum vicissitudinis redendae, a pact
                                  just promising mutual aid; ------- so much, for the cohesiveness of
                                  these (great tribes?). It is just mere common sense that tribes could
                                  not have had much association with one another or that many large
                                  tribes could have existed in the type of dense forests typical in
                                  Central Europe at the time and well into the early medieval period.
                                  "Bury states that we must picture Germany as consisting of small
                                  territories each of which was surrounded by a dense impenetrable ring
                                  of primeval forest". That ring of woodland impeded attack from other
                                  tribes around them. It is known through archaeological evidence that
                                  "tribal groups" existed in small territories that were claimed from
                                  these dense woodlands. Small tribes grew into large ones and much,
                                  much later into Nation states when these small tribes grew and had to
                                  chop down more of the forest for their expansion. The latter allowed
                                  small tribes to come into contact with other tribes and to establish
                                  some sort of (treaty or understanding) between one another in order to
                                  keep war at bay etc. The reason that East German tribes were large is
                                  because the geographic and environmental area in which they lived was
                                  not densely wooded but rather open and prairie-like and for the most
                                  part were not sedentary farmers.
                                  (Please see The Invasion of Europe by the Barbarians. Especially pp10.)


                                  >
                                  >
                                  > to the Spanish population. Simply by
                                  > > understanding, contrasting and comparing the relevant haplogroups
                                  >>and.

                                  > > haplotypes within a given population one is able to tell if there
                                  > has
                                  > > been any extraneous admixture. It is interesting however that before
                                  > > there was haplotyping it had been thought (quite correctly) by many
                                  > > scholars, that the Visigoths numbered
                                  > approximately
                                  > > 300,000 in a peninsula of (at the time)
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  Faltin writes:
                                  > This is likely far to high a number. More like 100,000 perhaps more
                                  > and many of them were, according to the historical sources, hangers
                                  > on. Runaway Roman peasants, slaves, Roman mine workers and so on, >
                                  > who joined the Visigoths on their way to Spain.
                                  >

                                  F.E.J.D. writes:
                                  There is wide debate in this actual number. I've seen as much as
                                  500,000 and as little as 100,000, nonetheless...You AGAIN fail to
                                  provide sources and content; this time, in order to substantiate your
                                  estimate and the idea that many Visigoths were in fact not from
                                  Germanic people groups but rather "hangers on" et al.

                                  Here, you are making a point of quantifying (AND QUALIFYING), when it
                                  was only necessary to quantify the number of Visigoths. You qualify
                                  the types of individuals who joined the Visigoths by emphasizing that
                                  "many" of those that joined were Roman and on (what has historically
                                  been termed) the margins of society. You do so by using such words as
                                  "hangers on" "Slaves", "peasants", "mine workers", etc. On the other
                                  hand you avoid using individuals having other estates and occupations,
                                  which may have also joined Visigothic ranks. Though it is true that
                                  the lower classes openly welcomed the Visigoths. It is also true that
                                  you deliberately inserted QUALIFYING criteria when qualifying criteria
                                  was not needed. Your insertion of just certain types of estates and
                                  occupations is also rather curious since it is extraneous to the
                                  question of (how many individuals comprised the Visigoths and then
                                  other tribes). The latter makes it appear that you inserted the latter
                                  purposely. Furthermore, I can think of no other reason for doing so
                                  other that to qualify the types of people that entered Spain.
                                  Therefore you selectively make it seem that "many" Visigoths that
                                  entered Spain were in fact not the descendants of ethnic Visigoths but
                                  rather Romans and slaves, what has historically been considered as the
                                  offal of society. Could it be that you would want readers to come away
                                  with the idea that the Visigoths that entered Spain were less
                                  desirable or somehow tainted by such individuals among their ranks?
                                  Could it also be that you would like others to think that the Spanish
                                  populace are in part descended from (as you say) "slaves, peasants
                                  etc..." If so, let it be. However, your point is absurd, one cannot
                                  delineate the Visigoths in such away. Though it is now obvious that
                                  they were not all direct descendants of the original people groups
                                  that we have come to know as Goths. They were more importantly the
                                  originators and representatives of certain ideas that greatly impacted
                                  the European world, which is why they are interesting and worthy of
                                  study. As such, whatever type of individual joined their ranks matters
                                  little. They certainly held together well by culture and language but
                                  certainly also by certain ideas that transcended territorial origin,
                                  occupation and estate. A good lesson for all of us in this day and age.

                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > [3,500,000 inhabitants
                                  > > (Kenneth W. Harl, Tulane U. 1998)]. Likewise, (Stanley Payne, 1973)
                                  > > concluded that the same number existed after the time of Alaric II
                                  > > (484-507); a ratio of (11.66) to (1). The later ratio is in fact
                                  > close
                                  > > to the present ratio of African-Americans to European Americans in
                                  > the
                                  > > U.S, a sizable element in the overall population. Even so, it is
                                  > > further thought that despite pressures from disease etc; the
                                  > > Visigothic law of "thirds", (where 2/3 of each Hispano-Roman villa
                                  > was
                                  > > confiscated by Visigoths), would have given the Visigoths a greater
                                  > > advantage in increasing their numbers, that, since the ability to
                                  > > raise comestibles by having more land and better soils would have
                                  > > favored Visigoth families over those who had poor soil and less land
                                  > > and could not raise as much food. Furthermore, by projecting the
                                  > > previous trend to 711CE (a period of some 200 years) it is quite
                                  > > conceivable that the Visigoths could have narrowed the previously
                                  > > stated ratio to as little as 10 to 1. You must also notice that I
                                  > have
                                  > > not factored-in other people Germanic people already in the
                                  > peninsula,
                                  > > they are simply not included as part of the Visigothic population,
                                  > > namely the Suebi, which probably numbered around 80,000, and the
                                  > > remnant Vandals that remained in Spain or returned to the Balearic
                                  > > Islands and elsewhere after their ruinous mission to the south,
                                  > > however these were probably few. – Nonetheless, underpinning the
                                  > best
                                  > > estimate of Visigoth admixture in Spain is the presence of suspect
                                  > > genetic signatures in the Y-chromosome and/or mtDNA of extant
                                  > > individuals where an inference may be made. The latter is in the
                                  > > process of being collected from the extant populations of (Spain,
                                  > > Pomerania, Gotland, and Southern Sweden as well as other suspected
                                  > > homelands.
                                  >
                                  > Faltin writes:
                                  >
                                  > One cannot, but smile and shake ones head at such nonsense.
                                  > I am sure you will succeed in calculating the Spanish into a Germanic
                                  > people, strange only that most of them just don't look the part;-)
                                  > Dirk

                                  F.E.J.D. writes:
                                  The last part of my post seems to have made you writhe uncomfortably.
                                  I can actually picture you "shaking your head" in disgust.
                                  However, I ask myself however, why would you say such things? It is
                                  terribly discourteous and unprofessional to behave in such a way
                                  towards anyone. If you have disagreements, I suggest you substantiate
                                  them (as I have) in an intellectual cogent manner. Instead, you attack
                                  me in an ad hominem manner. Such tactics are a sign that you can no
                                  longer defend your points through reason.
                                  FURTHERMORE:
                                  WHAT YOU STATE, (THAT IS), THAT I WILL "SUCCEED IN CALCULATING THE
                                  SPANISH INTO A GERMANIC PEOPLE" IS PATENTLY SLANDEROUS TOWARDS ME, MY
                                  RESEARCH FELLOWS AND OUR PROFESSIONAL ETHICS. I WOULD ((( NEVER )))
                                  WILLINGLY CAUSE AN EXPERIMENT OR STUDY TO SKEW IN ANY DIRECTION. to be
                                  ACCUSED OF THAT BY ANYONE IS BEYOND THE PALE.
                                  BE ADVICED THAT IF YOU WERE PRESENTLY IN THIS COUNTRY, I WOULD BRING A
                                  LAW SUIT AGAINST YOU IMMEDIATELY. OUR CONSTITUTION DOES –NOT- PROTECT
                                  SLANDEROUS SPEECH. THUS, BE ADVICED ---- YOUR COMMENTS WERE PATENTLY
                                  SLANDEROUS.
                                  I ALSO ASK THE MODERATOR TO TAKE NOTICE (SINCE THIS LIST IS IN THE
                                  UNITED STATS), I HOPE THAT PROPER ACTION BE BROUGHT AGAINST YOU; NOT
                                  ONLY FOR YOUR SLANDEROUS STATEMENTS BUT ALSO FOR YOUR RACIST COMMENTS
                                  WHICH HEREAFTER I SHALL MAKE KNOWN. THEY ARE FOUND AT THE END OF YOUR
                                  CLOSING.
                                  ((( I HOPE EVERYONE HAS PICKED-UP ON THEM)) AND I HOPE THEY ARE ALSO
                                  PASSED ON TO THE GERMANIC LIST IN WHICH YOU ARE ALSO A MEMBER.

                                  YOUR COMMENTS STATE:
                                  >"I am sure you will succeed in calculating the Spanish into a Germanic
                                  > people, strange only that most of them just don't look the part;-)
                                  > Dirk

                                  You end your statement with an emoticon (how mature). Obviously the
                                  winking emoticon is meant to be condescending and dismissive of the
                                  idea that Spaniards could ever be partly descended from Visigoths. It
                                  is purposely meant to be a disparaging remark to all Spaniards and me.
                                  Had you stated the same phrase in a scholarly manner it would have
                                  been taken as a bonafide question, however, your choice of words
                                  followed by the emoticon clearly betray your intentions, it in fact
                                  was meant to be clearly derogatory and offensive. EVERYONE - PLEASE
                                  TAKE NOTICE!

                                  Here, it is plainly evident you think people have to look a certain
                                  way in order to be of Germanic ancestry (but how about those
                                  individuals of full "Germanic ancestry" that are not the
                                  "stereotypical idea" of Germanic, that is blond and blue-eyed)? Take
                                  for example Franz Josef Wenzel, the prince of Liechtenstein and so
                                  many others. And by the way, just what, in your opinion, do Germanic
                                  people have to look like Herr Faltin?
                                  ? Please substantiate your opinion ----- However, I suspect that you
                                  won't since citing racist or anthropologically discredited literature
                                  would immediately give you away and disclose exactly what you are and
                                  feel. It is quite clear that you think most Spaniards do not meet your
                                  criteria. That is why you constantly chafe every time someone brings
                                  up the question of Visigothic descent in the Spanish populace. I say,
                                  if one is partly descended from a certain people group then let the
                                  genes speak for themselves, but I wonder if "you" would submit to
                                  being genotyped? --- I wonder if you would be surprised?
                                  You nonetheless, seem to chafe at the very idea that Spaniards are
                                  partly descended from Visigoths who inhabited a common homeland. In
                                  turn you ascribe to us decent from certain people groups at rates that
                                  are not scientifically tenable and that (without sources and content).
                                  The proof that you have done so is all over this list's archives. In
                                  months past, your answers to me and to other individuals citing
                                  anything to do with Visigothic heritage have been consistently
                                  UNSUBSTANTIATED and full of negative opinion and dismissive comments.
                                  I wonder---- what could be your reasons for doing so?
                                  Anthropologically, both of your assertions are patently incorrect and
                                  laughable. I will not dignify them with further answers.

                                  Quite evidently you have shown your true colors, (pun intended).

                                  Lastly, I am only a molecular anthropologist whose only desire is to
                                  know how we got here, our descent. That sir is what drives me. The
                                  Spanish people are what they are. I have no subjective desire to be or
                                  to make others seem what we are not, whether "Germanic" or part of any
                                  other people group. The very idea of desiring to be what we are not is
                                  quite absurd anyway don't you think? Rather, we search such
                                  connections in our genome because humans are curious about the world,
                                  because we want to connect to our other fellow humans in profound and
                                  intimate ways and because it is potentially expedient from a medical
                                  point of view. It is also wonderful that we have such a tool in
                                  genetics to let us search our connections and dispel the racist
                                  theories and quackery so rampant today. All of us are actually related
                                  anyway.

                                  Actually I was going to answer Faltin's other post but I will not
                                  dignify its contents nor take up this list' s time and bandwidth
                                  unless the moderator and a majority feel that I ought to do so.

                                  I send this in haste, please pardon grammatical errors and
                                  LASTLY; beg the lists pardon for having to write this.

                                  Thank you all,
                                  F.E.J.D.
                                • F. E. Jiménez Díaz
                                  BTW Upon re reading my previous entry I would like to clarify that it was Fritigern at Hadrianople (over Valens), however, somehow I recall that Alaric might
                                  Message 16 of 28 , May 28, 2004
                                    BTW Upon re reading my previous entry I would like to clarify that it
                                    was Fritigern at Hadrianople (over Valens), however, somehow I recall
                                    that Alaric might have been one of the Generals. Can someone clarify this?
                                    Thanks,
                                    F.E.J.D.
                                  • OSCAR HERRERA
                                    i have family in spain and visit there alot.all i see ia alot of white and german looking people in madrid and other areas as well. there are alot of
                                    Message 17 of 28 , May 28, 2004
                                      i have family in spain and visit there alot.all i see ia alot of white and german looking people in madrid and other areas as well. there are alot of respectedly alot of meditarranean looking people as well. many western countries have so called different peoples working and living together. we should restrain when it comes to racial differences ,but solving problems that what is right should be everyones goal/

                                      F. E. Jim�nez D�az <visigoth@...> wrote:My goodness Herr Faltin,
                                      My post seems to have made you become unhinged. Please be assured that
                                      my intention was not to make you uncomfortable or have you take a
                                      flight of fancy as you have done trying to deconstruct what I have
                                      written.
                                      Indeed I do hope that we are able to correct one another's mistakes
                                      when mistakes are made but we should do so politely and cogently. I do
                                      admit that in haste I substituted Varus for Valens but that is all,
                                      (very similar names you know) about which you made some hay. Most
                                      decent people would have rather politely pointed to the oversight.
                                      Even so, though not a historically accepted appellation I will choose
                                      to call Alaric's Gothic Victory over Valens, the "Clades Valensiana"
                                      (sic).
                                      Furthermore, my observation of your comportment stands. - I carefully
                                      read through your posts #7601 and 7602. Your efforts were not
                                      rebuttals but reactions, so strident, so uninformed and so
                                      misrepresentative of ideas that I would not have answered them had I
                                      not read to the very end where you make a deliberate ad hominem
                                      attack, and even worse, a slur I shall not dignify. You sir, have done
                                      great harm to whatever credibility you might have had in these groups.
                                      It is also a disservice to the members of this list to demonstrate
                                      such unprofessional behavior.

                                      I hope everyone will read this and my next post in its entirety and
                                      let things stand on their merit. Even so, I am still willing to
                                      apologize if my original post made you uncomfortable in any way.

                                      And by the way, Also, I am quite aware of your diversionary tactics
                                      when challenging someone's ideas. First you immediately discredit
                                      their ideas with a cautionary preamble making it seem as though your
                                      intellect has detected some heresy and putting them on the defensive.
                                      Then you will selectively parse sentences to make things seem what
                                      they are not. Then you will insert your opinion where it suits
                                      (without giving content or sources) while on the other hand demanding
                                      them of everyone else. Lastly you close with dismissive comments that
                                      make it appear you are right when in fact many times you have only
                                      inserted mere OPINION. ---------- Too bad for you though, the latter
                                      seems to work only with people who are not sufficiently aware of
                                      history, uncritical of ideas or are in awe of your opinion.

                                      I came to this group from ONN "Oldnorsenet" then with my screen name
                                      of Frodenand and have been here since the under different screen names
                                      as I have changed computers and locations. Interestingly, through that
                                      time I have never had to defend myself in this way. I beg the lists
                                      apology for having to do it, but I cannot let such insults and
                                      baseless assertions stand. I promise that I will not return comments
                                      nor mention these matters again after I post my two responses.

                                      > > F.E.J.D. writes:
                                      > > Presently Leonardo, genetic haplotyping has minimized the inaccuracy
                                      > > of population studies, which relied solely on historical data,
                                      > > craniometry and typology and other circuitous and highly
                                      > > interpretational methods. No longer do we have to accept > >
                                      unreliable
                                      > > and/or sometimes "ulterior" subjective opinions on such things as
                                      > the
                                      > > genetic contribution of people groups such as Visigoths (the largest
                                      > > of ALL Germanic tribes)
                                      >
                                      >
                                      Faltin writes:
                                      >
                                      > There is so much wrong with this text that I point out only a few
                                      > things. The Visigoths were certainly not the largest of all Germanic
                                      > tribes. Franks, Saxons, Alamannians, Anglo-Saxons, Bavarians and the
                                      >North Germanic peoples were all much larger than the >Visigoths.

                                      F.E.J.D. writes:
                                      First of all, please provide sources and content and stop hiding
                                      behind your opinion.
                                      Give us population numbers and approximate dates with citations for
                                      all of the people groups you state.

                                      Secondly, it is a matter of historic fact that there were only three
                                      sizable Germanic tribes in Iberia (the Visigoths, Vandals and Suebi)
                                      and the Visigoths were by far the largest.
                                      Actually, people would have read my thought in its correct context had
                                      you not snipped the text at the point which you inserted your
                                      comments. The way it is snipped and separated by your comments (at mid
                                      sentence) is rather convenient though. Is it not?
                                      Now that you brought up the "Franks, Saxons, Alamannians,
                                      Anglo-Saxons, Bavarians and the North Germanic peoples" as being
                                      larger, you must prove the point.
                                      Again - give us population numbers and approximate dates with
                                      citations for all of the people groups you state. ---- However, you
                                      will surely encounter that tribal groups in Europe at the time I cite
                                      population numbers for the Visigoths (who's estimated population has
                                      some verifiability) are extremely difficult to attain since these
                                      purported tribes were extremely amorphous entities having few
                                      verifiable geographic delineations, and in an almost constant process
                                      of blending in and out of disparate groups. Therefore arriving at
                                      meaningful population numbers is extremely difficult. The latter is
                                      certainly so for the West Germans, (who were mainly farmers), since
                                      certain of the West German tribes we have come to know; the Franks and
                                      Saxons, were amalgamations of many smaller people groups having loose
                                      ties. The latter is especially true of the Alemanni, the tribal group
                                      from which some European states derive their name for the modern state
                                      of Germany. The name Aleman simply means "all men" denoting a melting
                                      pot of the checkerboard of people sharing similar culture that came to
                                      be known as Germany.
                                      . The Alemanni were in fact a composite nation formed from the Suevian
                                      and other tribes, on the upper Rhine; same goes for the Franks. People
                                      on the lower Rhine formed a "loose" conglomerate under that name. In
                                      fact, most of the tribes in Central Europe remained largely amorphous
                                      and unfocused until quite late, as is the case of the Franks who
                                      largely remain that way until just before the time they are reported
                                      as harassing the Visigoths.
                                      Interestingly, quite often scholars have questioned the extent to
                                      which these small tribes were committed to one another or to a larger
                                      parent tribe. The only evidence of such is a text of Ammianus
                                      Marcellinus that refers to the pactum vicissitudinis redendae, a pact
                                      just promising mutual aid; ------- so much, for the cohesiveness of
                                      these (great tribes?). It is just mere common sense that tribes could
                                      not have had much association with one another or that many large
                                      tribes could have existed in the type of dense forests typical in
                                      Central Europe at the time and well into the early medieval period.
                                      "Bury states that we must picture Germany as consisting of small
                                      territories each of which was surrounded by a dense impenetrable ring
                                      of primeval forest". That ring of woodland impeded attack from other
                                      tribes around them. It is known through archaeological evidence that
                                      "tribal groups" existed in small territories that were claimed from
                                      these dense woodlands. Small tribes grew into large ones and much,
                                      much later into Nation states when these small tribes grew and had to
                                      chop down more of the forest for their expansion. The latter allowed
                                      small tribes to come into contact with other tribes and to establish
                                      some sort of (treaty or understanding) between one another in order to
                                      keep war at bay etc. The reason that East German tribes were large is
                                      because the geographic and environmental area in which they lived was
                                      not densely wooded but rather open and prairie-like and for the most
                                      part were not sedentary farmers.
                                      (Please see The Invasion of Europe by the Barbarians. Especially pp10.)


                                      >
                                      >
                                      > to the Spanish population. Simply by
                                      > > understanding, contrasting and comparing the relevant haplogroups
                                      >>and.

                                      > > haplotypes within a given population one is able to tell if there
                                      > has
                                      > > been any extraneous admixture. It is interesting however that before
                                      > > there was haplotyping it had been thought (quite correctly) by many
                                      > > scholars, that the Visigoths numbered
                                      > approximately
                                      > > 300,000 in a peninsula of (at the time)
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      Faltin writes:
                                      > This is likely far to high a number. More like 100,000 perhaps more
                                      > and many of them were, according to the historical sources, hangers
                                      > on. Runaway Roman peasants, slaves, Roman mine workers and so on, >
                                      > who joined the Visigoths on their way to Spain.
                                      >

                                      F.E.J.D. writes:
                                      There is wide debate in this actual number. I've seen as much as
                                      500,000 and as little as 100,000, nonetheless...You AGAIN fail to
                                      provide sources and content; this time, in order to substantiate your
                                      estimate and the idea that many Visigoths were in fact not from
                                      Germanic people groups but rather "hangers on" et al.

                                      Here, you are making a point of quantifying (AND QUALIFYING), when it
                                      was only necessary to quantify the number of Visigoths. You qualify
                                      the types of individuals who joined the Visigoths by emphasizing that
                                      "many" of those that joined were Roman and on (what has historically
                                      been termed) the margins of society. You do so by using such words as
                                      "hangers on" "Slaves", "peasants", "mine workers", etc. On the other
                                      hand you avoid using individuals having other estates and occupations,
                                      which may have also joined Visigothic ranks. Though it is true that
                                      the lower classes openly welcomed the Visigoths. It is also true that
                                      you deliberately inserted QUALIFYING criteria when qualifying criteria
                                      was not needed. Your insertion of just certain types of estates and
                                      occupations is also rather curious since it is extraneous to the
                                      question of (how many individuals comprised the Visigoths and then
                                      other tribes). The latter makes it appear that you inserted the latter
                                      purposely. Furthermore, I can think of no other reason for doing so
                                      other that to qualify the types of people that entered Spain.
                                      Therefore you selectively make it seem that "many" Visigoths that
                                      entered Spain were in fact not the descendants of ethnic Visigoths but
                                      rather Romans and slaves, what has historically been considered as the
                                      offal of society. Could it be that you would want readers to come away
                                      with the idea that the Visigoths that entered Spain were less
                                      desirable or somehow tainted by such individuals among their ranks?
                                      Could it also be that you would like others to think that the Spanish
                                      populace are in part descended from (as you say) "slaves, peasants
                                      etc..." If so, let it be. However, your point is absurd, one cannot
                                      delineate the Visigoths in such away. Though it is now obvious that
                                      they were not all direct descendants of the original people groups
                                      that we have come to know as Goths. They were more importantly the
                                      originators and representatives of certain ideas that greatly impacted
                                      the European world, which is why they are interesting and worthy of
                                      study. As such, whatever type of individual joined their ranks matters
                                      little. They certainly held together well by culture and language but
                                      certainly also by certain ideas that transcended territorial origin,
                                      occupation and estate. A good lesson for all of us in this day and age.

                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > [3,500,000 inhabitants
                                      > > (Kenneth W. Harl, Tulane U. 1998)]. Likewise, (Stanley Payne, 1973)
                                      > > concluded that the same number existed after the time of Alaric II
                                      > > (484-507); a ratio of (11.66) to (1). The later ratio is in fact
                                      > close
                                      > > to the present ratio of African-Americans to European Americans in
                                      > the
                                      > > U.S, a sizable element in the overall population. Even so, it is
                                      > > further thought that despite pressures from disease etc; the
                                      > > Visigothic law of "thirds", (where 2/3 of each Hispano-Roman villa
                                      > was
                                      > > confiscated by Visigoths), would have given the Visigoths a greater
                                      > > advantage in increasing their numbers, that, since the ability to
                                      > > raise comestibles by having more land and better soils would have
                                      > > favored Visigoth families over those who had poor soil and less land
                                      > > and could not raise as much food. Furthermore, by projecting the
                                      > > previous trend to 711CE (a period of some 200 years) it is quite
                                      > > conceivable that the Visigoths could have narrowed the previously
                                      > > stated ratio to as little as 10 to 1. You must also notice that I
                                      > have
                                      > > not factored-in other people Germanic people already in the
                                      > peninsula,
                                      > > they are simply not included as part of the Visigothic population,
                                      > > namely the Suebi, which probably numbered around 80,000, and the
                                      > > remnant Vandals that remained in Spain or returned to the Balearic
                                      > > Islands and elsewhere after their ruinous mission to the south,
                                      > > however these were probably few. � Nonetheless, underpinning the
                                      > best
                                      > > estimate of Visigoth admixture in Spain is the presence of suspect
                                      > > genetic signatures in the Y-chromosome and/or mtDNA of extant
                                      > > individuals where an inference may be made. The latter is in the
                                      > > process of being collected from the extant populations of (Spain,
                                      > > Pomerania, Gotland, and Southern Sweden as well as other suspected
                                      > > homelands.
                                      >
                                      > Faltin writes:
                                      >
                                      > One cannot, but smile and shake ones head at such nonsense.
                                      > I am sure you will succeed in calculating the Spanish into a Germanic
                                      > people, strange only that most of them just don't look the part;-)
                                      > Dirk

                                      F.E.J.D. writes:
                                      The last part of my post seems to have made you writhe uncomfortably.
                                      I can actually picture you "shaking your head" in disgust.
                                      However, I ask myself however, why would you say such things? It is
                                      terribly discourteous and unprofessional to behave in such a way
                                      towards anyone. If you have disagreements, I suggest you substantiate
                                      them (as I have) in an intellectual cogent manner. Instead, you attack
                                      me in an ad hominem manner. Such tactics are a sign that you can no
                                      longer defend your points through reason.
                                      FURTHERMORE:
                                      WHAT YOU STATE, (THAT IS), THAT I WILL "SUCCEED IN CALCULATING THE
                                      SPANISH INTO A GERMANIC PEOPLE" IS PATENTLY SLANDEROUS TOWARDS ME, MY
                                      RESEARCH FELLOWS AND OUR PROFESSIONAL ETHICS. I WOULD ((( NEVER )))
                                      WILLINGLY CAUSE AN EXPERIMENT OR STUDY TO SKEW IN ANY DIRECTION. to be
                                      ACCUSED OF THAT BY ANYONE IS BEYOND THE PALE.
                                      BE ADVICED THAT IF YOU WERE PRESENTLY IN THIS COUNTRY, I WOULD BRING A
                                      LAW SUIT AGAINST YOU IMMEDIATELY. OUR CONSTITUTION DOES �NOT- PROTECT
                                      SLANDEROUS SPEECH. THUS, BE ADVICED ---- YOUR COMMENTS WERE PATENTLY
                                      SLANDEROUS.
                                      I ALSO ASK THE MODERATOR TO TAKE NOTICE (SINCE THIS LIST IS IN THE
                                      UNITED STATS), I HOPE THAT PROPER ACTION BE BROUGHT AGAINST YOU; NOT
                                      ONLY FOR YOUR SLANDEROUS STATEMENTS BUT ALSO FOR YOUR RACIST COMMENTS
                                      WHICH HEREAFTER I SHALL MAKE KNOWN. THEY ARE FOUND AT THE END OF YOUR
                                      CLOSING.
                                      ((( I HOPE EVERYONE HAS PICKED-UP ON THEM)) AND I HOPE THEY ARE ALSO
                                      PASSED ON TO THE GERMANIC LIST IN WHICH YOU ARE ALSO A MEMBER.

                                      YOUR COMMENTS STATE:
                                      >"I am sure you will succeed in calculating the Spanish into a Germanic
                                      > people, strange only that most of them just don't look the part;-)
                                      > Dirk

                                      You end your statement with an emoticon (how mature). Obviously the
                                      winking emoticon is meant to be condescending and dismissive of the
                                      idea that Spaniards could ever be partly descended from Visigoths. It
                                      is purposely meant to be a disparaging remark to all Spaniards and me.
                                      Had you stated the same phrase in a scholarly manner it would have
                                      been taken as a bonafide question, however, your choice of words
                                      followed by the emoticon clearly betray your intentions, it in fact
                                      was meant to be clearly derogatory and offensive. EVERYONE - PLEASE
                                      TAKE NOTICE!

                                      Here, it is plainly evident you think people have to look a certain
                                      way in order to be of Germanic ancestry (but how about those
                                      individuals of full "Germanic ancestry" that are not the
                                      "stereotypical idea" of Germanic, that is blond and blue-eyed)? Take
                                      for example Franz Josef Wenzel, the prince of Liechtenstein and so
                                      many others. And by the way, just what, in your opinion, do Germanic
                                      people have to look like Herr Faltin?
                                      ? Please substantiate your opinion ----- However, I suspect that you
                                      won't since citing racist or anthropologically discredited literature
                                      would immediately give you away and disclose exactly what you are and
                                      feel. It is quite clear that you think most Spaniards do not meet your
                                      criteria. That is why you constantly chafe every time someone brings
                                      up the question of Visigothic descent in the Spanish populace. I say,
                                      if one is partly descended from a certain people group then let the
                                      genes speak for themselves, but I wonder if "you" would submit to
                                      being genotyped? --- I wonder if you would be surprised?
                                      You nonetheless, seem to chafe at the very idea that Spaniards are
                                      partly descended from Visigoths who inhabited a common homeland. In
                                      turn you ascribe to us decent from certain people groups at rates that
                                      are not scientifically tenable and that (without sources and content).
                                      The proof that you have done so is all over this list's archives. In
                                      months past, your answers to me and to other individuals citing
                                      anything to do with Visigothic heritage have been consistently
                                      UNSUBSTANTIATED and full of negative opinion and dismissive comments.
                                      I wonder---- what could be your reasons for doing so?
                                      Anthropologically, both of your assertions are patently incorrect and
                                      laughable. I will not dignify them with further answers.

                                      Quite evidently you have shown your true colors, (pun intended).

                                      Lastly, I am only a molecular anthropologist whose only desire is to
                                      know how we got here, our descent. That sir is what drives me. The
                                      Spanish people are what they are. I have no subjective desire to be or
                                      to make others seem what we are not, whether "Germanic" or part of any
                                      other people group. The very idea of desiring to be what we are not is
                                      quite absurd anyway don't you think? Rather, we search such
                                      connections in our genome because humans are curious about the world,
                                      because we want to connect to our other fellow humans in profound and
                                      intimate ways and because it is potentially expedient from a medical
                                      point of view. It is also wonderful that we have such a tool in
                                      genetics to let us search our connections and dispel the racist
                                      theories and quackery so rampant today. All of us are actually related
                                      anyway.

                                      Actually I was going to answer Faltin's other post but I will not
                                      dignify its contents nor take up this list' s time and bandwidth
                                      unless the moderator and a majority feel that I ought to do so.

                                      I send this in haste, please pardon grammatical errors and
                                      LASTLY; beg the lists pardon for having to write this.

                                      Thank you all,
                                      F.E.J.D.






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                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • Ingemar Nordgren
                                      ... this? ... Hi F.E.J.D., I am sorry but you are wrong out. Fritigern is correct but Alaric is a much later thing and with him the Visigoths form during that
                                      Message 18 of 28 , May 28, 2004
                                        --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, F. E. Jiménez Díaz <visigoth@a...> wrote:
                                        > BTW Upon re reading my previous entry I would like to clarify that it
                                        > was Fritigern at Hadrianople (over Valens), however, somehow I recall
                                        > that Alaric might have been one of the Generals. Can someone clarify
                                        this?
                                        > Thanks,
                                        > F.E.J.D.


                                        Hi F.E.J.D.,

                                        I am sorry but you are wrong out. Fritigern is correct but Alaric is a
                                        much later thing and with him the Visigoths form during that very
                                        name. Fritgern was a Vesi-Tervingi coming over the limes from
                                        Gutþiuda/Romania after the Hunnic attack in 376.

                                        Best
                                        Ingemar
                                      • Fern
                                        Ingemar, Thanks for the information, I guess Alaric must have been a young boy or adolescent at the time of Hadrianople Cheers, F.J. ... [Non-text portions of
                                        Message 19 of 28 , May 29, 2004
                                          Ingemar,
                                          Thanks for the information, I guess Alaric must have been a young boy or
                                          adolescent at the time of Hadrianople

                                          Cheers,
                                          F.J.


                                          Ingemar Nordgren wrote:

                                          > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, F. E. Jiménez Díaz <visigoth@a...> wrote:
                                          > > BTW Upon re reading my previous entry I would like to clarify that it
                                          > > was Fritigern at Hadrianople (over Valens), however, somehow I recall
                                          > > that Alaric might have been one of the Generals. Can someone clarify
                                          > this?
                                          > > Thanks,
                                          > > F.E.J.D.
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Hi F.E.J.D.,
                                          >
                                          > I am sorry but you are wrong out. Fritigern is correct but Alaric is a
                                          > much later thing and with him the Visigoths form during that very
                                          > name. Fritgern was a Vesi-Tervingi coming over the limes from
                                          > Gutþiuda/Romania after the Hunnic attack in 376.
                                          >
                                          > Best
                                          > Ingemar
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a blank
                                          > email to <gothic-l-unsubscribe@egroups.com>.
                                          >
                                          >
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                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        • faltin2001
                                          ... it ... recall ... clarify this? ... Hi, Alaric lived at the begining of the 5th century. The battle of Adrianople took place at the end of the 4th century.
                                          Message 20 of 28 , Jun 4, 2004
                                            --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, F. E. Jiménez Díaz <visigoth@a...>
                                            wrote:
                                            > BTW Upon re reading my previous entry I would like to clarify that
                                            it
                                            > was Fritigern at Hadrianople (over Valens), however, somehow I
                                            recall
                                            > that Alaric might have been one of the Generals. Can someone
                                            clarify this?
                                            > Thanks,
                                            > F.E.J.D.


                                            Hi,

                                            Alaric lived at the begining of the 5th century. The battle of
                                            Adrianople took place at the end of the 4th century.

                                            Cheers
                                            Dirk
                                          • faltin2001
                                            ... that ... A very sacrosanct, but highly cynical and offensive tone I detect here. ... Yes, and without recourse to cyncicism;-) I do ... No, that is not
                                            Message 21 of 28 , Jun 4, 2004
                                              --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, F. E. Jiménez Díaz <visigoth@a...>
                                              wrote:
                                              > My goodness Herr Faltin,
                                              > My post seems to have made you become unhinged. Please be assured
                                              that
                                              > my intention was not to make you uncomfortable or have you take a
                                              > flight of fancy as you have done trying to deconstruct what I have
                                              > written.





                                              A very sacrosanct, but highly cynical and offensive tone I detect
                                              here.






                                              > Indeed I do hope that we are able to correct one another's mistakes
                                              > when mistakes are made but we should do so politely and cogently.






                                              Yes, and without recourse to cyncicism;-)







                                              I do
                                              > admit that in haste I substituted Varus for Valens but that is all,







                                              No, that is not all. Your post is full of misinterpretations or lets
                                              say misunderstandings and a few genuine confusions as you admitted
                                              yourself.








                                              > (very similar names you know) about which you made some hay. Most
                                              > decent people would have rather politely pointed to the oversight.








                                              Your tone is still very offensive to me.











                                              > Even so, though not a historically accepted appellation I will
                                              choose
                                              > to call Alaric's Gothic Victory over Valens, the "Clades Valensiana"
                                              > (sic).




                                              Lets call it battle of Adrianopel and everybody will know what mean.






                                              > Furthermore, my observation of your comportment stands. - I
                                              carefully
                                              > read through your posts #7601 and 7602. Your efforts were not
                                              > rebuttals but reactions, so strident, so uninformed and so
                                              > misrepresentative of ideas that I would not have answered them had I
                                              > not read to the very end where you make a deliberate ad hominem
                                              > attack, and even worse, a slur I shall not dignify. You sir, have
                                              done
                                              > great harm to whatever credibility you might have had in these
                                              groups.







                                              Well, your in my view nationallistically teinted posts certainly did
                                              nothing for your credibility.









                                              > It is also a disservice to the members of this list to demonstrate
                                              > such unprofessional behavior.




                                              dito





                                              >
                                              > I hope everyone will read this and my next post in its entirety and
                                              > let things stand on their merit. Even so, I am still willing to
                                              > apologize if my original post made you uncomfortable in any way.
                                              >






                                              I think your posts would make many people uncomfortable who detest
                                              the deliberate twisting and bending of history for the purpose of
                                              agrandisation of a specific ethnic group. But your apology (if meant
                                              sincerely) is accepted!









                                              <snip>









                                              >
                                              > > > F.E.J.D. writes:
                                              > > > Presently Leonardo, genetic haplotyping has minimized the
                                              inaccuracy
                                              > > > of population studies, which relied solely on historical data,
                                              > > > craniometry and typology and other circuitous and highly
                                              > > > interpretational methods. No longer do we have to accept > >
                                              > unreliable
                                              > > > and/or sometimes "ulterior" subjective opinions on such things
                                              as
                                              > > the
                                              > > > genetic contribution of people groups such as Visigoths (the
                                              largest
                                              > > > of ALL Germanic tribes)
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > Faltin writes:
                                              > >
                                              > > There is so much wrong with this text that I point out only a few
                                              > > things. The Visigoths were certainly not the largest of all
                                              Germanic
                                              > > tribes. Franks, Saxons, Alamannians, Anglo-Saxons, Bavarians and
                                              the
                                              > >North Germanic peoples were all much larger than the >Visigoths.
                                              >
                                              > F.E.J.D. writes:
                                              > First of all, please provide sources and content and stop hiding
                                              > behind your opinion.
                                              > Give us population numbers and approximate dates with citations for
                                              > all of the people groups you state.







                                              Sorry, I assumed that you are familiar with the relevant literature,
                                              but I should have noticed that you are not, otherwise you would not
                                              have stated that the Visigoths were the largest of "all" Germanic
                                              peoples. For literature on this please refer to Bruno Krueger "Die
                                              Germanen", vol 2, but really this is so well known that I am really
                                              surprised by your comment.










                                              >
                                              > Secondly, it is a matter of historic fact that there were only three
                                              > sizable Germanic tribes in Iberia (the Visigoths, Vandals and Suebi)
                                              > and the Visigoths were by far the largest.




                                              Well, you wrote of "ALL" Germanic peoples, not just Vandals and Suebi.







                                              > Actually, people would have read my thought in its correct context
                                              had
                                              > you not snipped the text at the point which you inserted your
                                              > comments. The way it is snipped and separated by your comments (at
                                              mid
                                              > sentence) is rather convenient though. Is it not?
                                              > Now that you brought up the "Franks, Saxons, Alamannians,
                                              > Anglo-Saxons, Bavarians and the North Germanic peoples" as being
                                              > larger, you must prove the point.
                                              > Again - give us population numbers and approximate dates with
                                              > citations for all of the people groups you state.







                                              Again, refer to Krueger's work which will provide you will all the
                                              information you are lacking in this respect.







                                              ---- However, you
                                              > will surely encounter that tribal groups in Europe at the time I
                                              cite
                                              > population numbers for the Visigoths (who's estimated population has
                                              > some verifiability) are extremely difficult to attain since these
                                              > purported tribes were extremely amorphous entities having few
                                              > verifiable geographic delineations, and in an almost constant
                                              process
                                              > of blending in and out of disparate groups. Therefore arriving at
                                              > meaningful population numbers is extremely difficult. The latter is
                                              > certainly so for the West Germans, (who were mainly farmers), since
                                              > certain of the West German tribes we have come to know; the Franks
                                              and
                                              > Saxons, were amalgamations of many smaller people groups having
                                              loose
                                              > ties. The latter is especially true of the Alemanni, the tribal
                                              group
                                              > from which some European states derive their name for the modern
                                              state
                                              > of Germany. The name Aleman simply means "all men" denoting a
                                              melting
                                              > pot of the checkerboard of people sharing similar culture that came
                                              to
                                              > be known as Germany.





                                              Are you now trying to insult may native country? The Alamanni did not
                                              form the sole basis for what is known as Germany today. This, also
                                              includes Saxons, Bavarians, Hessian, Franks, Frisians and many more.
                                              The Alamanni consisted almost exclusively of Elbe Germanic groups,
                                              probably mostly Semnones and Hermunduri. They later incorporated also
                                              people like Thuringians, and eastern Danube Suebi, while
                                              archaeological evidence suggests the settlement of Gepids in the
                                              Basle region as well.







                                              > . The Alemanni were in fact a composite nation formed from the
                                              Suevian
                                              > and other tribes, on the upper Rhine; same goes for the Franks.
                                              People
                                              > on the lower Rhine formed a "loose" conglomerate under that name. In
                                              > fact, most of the tribes in Central Europe remained largely
                                              amorphous
                                              > and unfocused until quite late, as is the case of the Franks who
                                              > largely remain that way until just before the time they are reported
                                              > as harassing the Visigoths.
                                              > Interestingly, quite often scholars have questioned the extent to
                                              > which these small tribes were committed to one another or to a
                                              larger
                                              > parent tribe. The only evidence of such is a text of Ammianus
                                              > Marcellinus that refers to the pactum vicissitudinis redendae, a
                                              pact
                                              > just promising mutual aid; ------- so much, for the cohesiveness of
                                              > these (great tribes?). It is just mere common sense that tribes
                                              could
                                              > not have had much association with one another or that many large
                                              > tribes could have existed in the type of dense forests typical in
                                              > Central Europe at the time and well into the early medieval period.
                                              > "Bury states that we must picture Germany as consisting of small
                                              > territories each of which was surrounded by a dense impenetrable
                                              ring
                                              > of primeval forest". That ring of woodland impeded attack from other
                                              > tribes around them. It is known through archaeological evidence that
                                              > "tribal groups" existed in small territories that were claimed from
                                              > these dense woodlands. Small tribes grew into large ones and much,
                                              > much later into Nation states when these small tribes grew and had
                                              to
                                              > chop down more of the forest for their expansion. The latter allowed
                                              > small tribes to come into contact with other tribes and to establish
                                              > some sort of (treaty or understanding) between one another in order
                                              to
                                              > keep war at bay etc.






                                              Nevertheless, people like the Alamanni had a shared common identity
                                              and did act as united polities when needed. Thus, the population of
                                              the Alamannia amounted to about 500,000 to 800,000 mln according to
                                              most estimates and if we believe Marcellinus they fielded an army of
                                              70,000.








                                              The reason that East German tribes were large is
                                              > because the geographic and environmental area in which they lived
                                              was
                                              > not densely wooded but rather open and prairie-like and for the most
                                              > part were not sedentary farmers.
                                              > (Please see The Invasion of Europe by the Barbarians. Especially
                                              pp10.)
                                              >











                                              >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > > to the Spanish population. Simply by
                                              > > > understanding, contrasting and comparing the relevant
                                              haplogroups
                                              > >>and.
                                              >
                                              > > > haplotypes within a given population one is able to tell if
                                              there
                                              > > has
                                              > > > been any extraneous admixture. It is interesting however that
                                              before
                                              > > > there was haplotyping it had been thought (quite correctly) by
                                              many
                                              > > > scholars, that the Visigoths numbered
                                              > > approximately
                                              > > > 300,000 in a peninsula of (at the time)
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > Faltin writes:
                                              > > This is likely far to high a number. More like 100,000 perhaps
                                              more
                                              > > and many of them were, according to the historical sources,
                                              hangers
                                              > > on. Runaway Roman peasants, slaves, Roman mine workers and so on,
                                              >
                                              > > who joined the Visigoths on their way to Spain.
                                              > >
                                              >


                                              > F.E.J.D. writes:
                                              > There is wide debate in this actual number. I've seen as much as
                                              > 500,000 and as little as 100,000, nonetheless...You AGAIN fail to
                                              > provide sources and content;




                                              As you say yourself estimates range widely between 100k and 500k. So
                                              why restate sources that you say you know yourself.








                                              this time, in order to substantiate your
                                              > estimate and the idea that many Visigoths were in fact not from
                                              > Germanic people groups but rather "hangers on" et al.
                                              >
                                              > Here, you are making a point of quantifying (AND QUALIFYING), when
                                              it
                                              > was only necessary to quantify the number of Visigoths. You qualify
                                              > the types of individuals who joined the Visigoths by emphasizing
                                              that
                                              > "many" of those that joined were Roman and on (what has historically
                                              > been termed) the margins of society. You do so by using such words
                                              as
                                              > "hangers on" "Slaves", "peasants", "mine workers", etc. On the other
                                              > hand you avoid using individuals having other estates and
                                              occupations,
                                              > which may have also joined Visigothic ranks.





                                              The Roman historian who provided us with this information used
                                              exactly these terms. I would have to look up the source, but it is
                                              once again a well established fact that the ranks of the migrating
                                              Visigoths were swelled by people on the margins of society,
                                              especially poor Roman peasants, runaway slavs and disgruntled miners.








                                              Though it is true that
                                              > the lower classes openly welcomed the Visigoths. It is also true
                                              that
                                              > you deliberately inserted QUALIFYING criteria when qualifying
                                              criteria
                                              > was not needed.




                                              You get this wrong completely, I just used the terms provided in the
                                              sources. You were obviously keen to show that the modern Spanish
                                              population is significantly Germanic, which I think is wrong because:

                                              a) I think the number of the Visigoths are overstated
                                              b) the Visigoths included large parts of non-Germanic people.










                                              Your insertion of just certain types of estates and
                                              > occupations is also rather curious since it is extraneous to the
                                              > question of (how many individuals comprised the Visigoths and then
                                              > other tribes). The latter makes it appear that you inserted the
                                              latter
                                              > purposely.



                                              see above.



                                              Furthermore, I can think of no other reason for doing so
                                              > other that to qualify the types of people that entered Spain.



                                              I recommmend you read the relevant sources.




                                              > Therefore you selectively make it seem that "many" Visigoths that
                                              > entered Spain were in fact not the descendants of ethnic Visigoths
                                              but
                                              > rather Romans and slaves, what has historically been considered as
                                              the
                                              > offal of society. Could it be that you would want readers to come
                                              away
                                              > with the idea that the Visigoths that entered Spain were less
                                              > desirable or somehow tainted by such individuals among their ranks?





                                              You should not engage in speculation without reading the relevant
                                              sources first. Have a look at Wolfram's book which will direct you to
                                              the primary source.









                                              > Could it also be that you would like others to think that the
                                              Spanish
                                              > populace are in part descended from (as you say) "slaves, peasants
                                              > etc..." If so, let it be.






                                              Slaves, peasants and miners were part of the heritage of most modern
                                              population. I think you will agree that your argumentation is now
                                              absurd.







                                              However, your point is absurd, one cannot
                                              > delineate the Visigoths in such away. Though it is now obvious that
                                              > they were not all direct descendants of the original people groups
                                              > that we have come to know as Goths. They were more importantly the
                                              > originators and representatives of certain ideas that greatly
                                              impacted
                                              > the European world, which is why they are interesting and worthy of
                                              > study. As such, whatever type of individual joined their ranks
                                              matters
                                              > little. They certainly held together well by culture and language
                                              but
                                              > certainly also by certain ideas that transcended territorial origin,
                                              > occupation and estate. A good lesson for all of us in this day and
                                              age.
                                              >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > > [3,500,000 inhabitants
                                              > > > (Kenneth W. Harl, Tulane U. 1998)]. Likewise, (Stanley Payne,
                                              1973)
                                              > > > concluded that the same number existed after the time of Alaric
                                              II
                                              > > > (484-507); a ratio of (11.66) to (1). The later ratio is in
                                              fact
                                              > > close
                                              > > > to the present ratio of African-Americans to European Americans
                                              in
                                              > > the
                                              > > > U.S, a sizable element in the overall population. Even so, it is
                                              > > > further thought that despite pressures from disease etc; the
                                              > > > Visigothic law of "thirds", (where 2/3 of each Hispano-Roman
                                              villa
                                              > > was
                                              > > > confiscated by Visigoths), would have given the Visigoths a
                                              greater
                                              > > > advantage in increasing their numbers, that, since the ability
                                              to
                                              > > > raise comestibles by having more land and better soils would
                                              have
                                              > > > favored Visigoth families over those who had poor soil and less
                                              land
                                              > > > and could not raise as much food. Furthermore, by projecting the
                                              > > > previous trend to 711CE (a period of some 200 years) it is
                                              quite
                                              > > > conceivable that the Visigoths could have narrowed the
                                              previously
                                              > > > stated ratio to as little as 10 to 1. You must also notice that
                                              I
                                              > > have
                                              > > > not factored-in other people Germanic people already in the
                                              > > peninsula,
                                              > > > they are simply not included as part of the Visigothic
                                              population,
                                              > > > namely the Suebi, which probably numbered around 80,000, and the
                                              > > > remnant Vandals that remained in Spain or returned to the
                                              Balearic
                                              > > > Islands and elsewhere after their ruinous mission to the south,
                                              > > > however these were probably few. – Nonetheless, underpinning
                                              the
                                              > > best
                                              > > > estimate of Visigoth admixture in Spain is the presence of
                                              suspect
                                              > > > genetic signatures in the Y-chromosome and/or mtDNA of extant
                                              > > > individuals where an inference may be made. The latter is in the
                                              > > > process of being collected from the extant populations of
                                              (Spain,
                                              > > > Pomerania, Gotland, and Southern Sweden as well as other
                                              suspected
                                              > > > homelands.
                                              > >
                                              > > Faltin writes:
                                              > >
                                              > > One cannot, but smile and shake ones head at such nonsense.
                                              > > I am sure you will succeed in calculating the Spanish into a
                                              Germanic
                                              > > people, strange only that most of them just don't look the part;-)
                                              > > Dirk
                                              >
                                              > F.E.J.D. writes:
                                              > The last part of my post seems to have made you writhe
                                              uncomfortably.
                                              > I can actually picture you "shaking your head" in disgust.
                                              > However, I ask myself however, why would you say such things? It is
                                              > terribly discourteous and unprofessional to behave in such a way
                                              > towards anyone. If you have disagreements, I suggest you
                                              substantiate
                                              > them (as I have) in an intellectual cogent manner.



                                              F.E.J.D, my aim was not to attack Spaniards or the Spanish nation and
                                              I have not done so. In contrast, my aim was to give due notice to the
                                              true ethnic heritage of the Spaniards, who are not Germanic but who
                                              certainly have absorbed some Germanic people about 1500 years ago. If
                                              you reread your texts, you might see that you constantly glorify the
                                              Visigothic people out of all proportions and that you seek to give
                                              the impression that modern Spaniards are essentially Visigoths or
                                              largly Germanic. They are not in my view. Instead, they include a
                                              rich mixure of ethnic groups including people like Celt-Iberians,
                                              Romans, Greeks, North Africans, Jews and of course Germanics. I did
                                              perceive your texts as highly nationalistic and they did make me
                                              uncomfortable as you rightly expected. You have apologised for this
                                              and I have accepted. I apologise for my final sentence, which was
                                              never intended to be slanderous, but it was intended as bonafide
                                              remark reflecting may overall disapproval with the tone of your
                                              posts.

                                              Cheers
                                              Dirk
                                            • faltin2001
                                              ... Dirk: We all know little about the Goths, because only little is known about the Goths in general, but I have read all (or most) of the literature on the
                                              Message 22 of 28 , Jun 4, 2004
                                                --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, OSCAR HERRERA <duke.co@s...> wrote:
                                                > oscargoth- dirk you know little of the goths.


                                                Dirk:
                                                We all know little about the Goths, because only little is known
                                                about the Goths in general, but I have read all (or most) of the
                                                literature on the Goths.





                                                Oscar:
                                                how spanish was invoked as a language ,well lets say we dont know.


                                                Dirk:
                                                We don't? Well is Spanish not a Romanic language?




                                                Oscar:
                                                it was spoken there before the romans arrived.




                                                Dirk:
                                                I doubt that this is correct to be honest. The Roman period in Spain
                                                is very important and Spanish, as a romanic language is a direct
                                                result.





                                                Oscar:
                                                the goths on the other hand were a well adapting germanic tribe and
                                                were very loyal to their own language




                                                Dirk:
                                                That is wrong I am afraid. They did keep their Germanic names, thus
                                                adhereing to Germanic namining practices which they shared also with
                                                other Germanic groups, but especially the Visigoths lost their
                                                Germanic language at an early time. The Visigoths arrive in Spain at
                                                the end of the 5th century and then in larger numbers after the
                                                catastrophic defeat inflicted by the Francs in 507AD. To what extend
                                                they still spoke Gothic at that time is uncertain, but by the middle
                                                of the 6th century a source distinguishes them as the Roman Goths to
                                                denote the fact that they had mostly become Latin speakers.






                                                Oscar:
                                                as shown by many gothic kings that ruled in spain prior to the moors
                                                invasion. their names were germanic,such as
                                                sisabut,sigeric,wallia,theudigiesel and on


                                                Dirk:
                                                Yes, Germanic naming practice was conservative and could not easily
                                                be transfered to Latin names.



                                                Oscar:
                                                ....history also said the goths drove the moors out.....



                                                Dirk:
                                                The Visigoths lost most of Spain and certainly their kingdom in Spain
                                                to the Moors. They did not drive them out. The Moslems were finally
                                                driven out by Spaniards not Goths centuries later.






                                                Oscar:
                                                so, why did these people give up their language and change spanish to
                                                its present pronunciation instead of invoking the gothic language and
                                                using a liitle spanish in it.


                                                Dirk:
                                                Because they were a small minority that was enitrely dependent on a
                                                Roman/Latin civil and clerical administration.





                                                Oscar:
                                                in conclusion gothic is nice to speak and i think the germanic
                                                peoples of europe should be entitled to more than just a few germanic
                                                languages spoken in north europe...



                                                Dirk:

                                                that is an entirely different matter. You and all Spaniards can speak
                                                and revive as much Gothic as they like, but it does not change the
                                                true ethnic composition of Spain and it does not change the history
                                                of that country either.

                                                One of the best books on the Visigoths is "Adel, Kirche und Königtum
                                                im Westgotenreich" by Dietrich Claude. I strongly recommend this for
                                                all who are interested in discussing Visigothic Spain.

                                                Cheers
                                                Dirk
                                              • faltin2001
                                                ... posting, which clears up the other one which arrogantly belittled the Visigothic contribution to the Iberic Peninsula. It seems that many scholars nowadays
                                                Message 23 of 28 , Jun 4, 2004
                                                  --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Jorge Alexandre S G <dowrgwyns@y...>

                                                  wrote:
                                                  > It was very comforting to read this superb and scientifically based
                                                  posting, which clears up the other one which arrogantly belittled the
                                                  Visigothic contribution to the Iberic Peninsula.
                                                  It seems that many scholars nowadays are actually politically
                                                  biased ,which shows in itself the great danger of science being seen
                                                  as truely neutral, as I once learned when I took one year of Social
                                                  Sciences ,cause its objectivity is only an ideal,its being highly
                                                  influenced by many subjective and political reasons.


                                                  Dirk:
                                                  That is true, and that is why some people glorify ethnic groups and
                                                  distort their history. Certainly, these distortions are often to the
                                                  taste of many people, which, however, does not make them any more
                                                  correct.

                                                  Cheers
                                                  Dirk
                                                • Denis Glenard
                                                  Hi Dirk, Hi everyone, I m not a scholar in these things, but there are a couple points from your previous Emails I d like to press here: Dirk: I doubt that
                                                  Message 24 of 28 , Jun 4, 2004
                                                    Hi Dirk,
                                                    Hi everyone,

                                                    I'm not a scholar in these things, but there are a couple points from your previous Emails I'd like to press here:

                                                    "Dirk:
                                                    I doubt that this is correct to be honest. The Roman period in Spain
                                                    is very important and Spanish, as a romanic language is a direct
                                                    result."

                                                    Spanish is definitely a romance language. We should perhaps be very precise and call it castilian, as there are many other languages in Spain.
                                                    Castilian is only a romance dialect, mainly spoken by the southern basques/castilians at the beginning of the 2nd millenium, hence the pronunciation of modern "spanish" is derived from basque (that's why they "sound" the same). The fact that the Reconquista was undertaken from the northern territories, including the Basque Country, helped impose this dialect as the main one in the kingdom, although many others were and still are spoken locally (whether these are languages or dialects is not relevant here, there are many battles going around this, quite a few of them political).

                                                    The Iberian language, the language spoken before the Roman invasion of Spain, is quite well known. It has it's own alphabet and although some of it is still not understood, progress is made every year.

                                                    Modern Spanish language is therefore made of bits and pieces taken from the languages spoken by it's invaders and original inhabitants, Celts, Iberians, Basque, Goths, Moors, etc. in varyiing degrees, obviously.

                                                    Dirk, you state in your other Email : "modern Spaniards (...) include a
                                                    rich mixure of ethnic groups including people like Celt-Iberians,
                                                    Romans, Greeks, North Africans, Jews and of course Germanics."

                                                    I resent your leaving out the Basque, who were there before almost all of the other ethnic groups, who have fought every battle to free Spain from every kind of invader. You also leave out the Phoenicians (the palm fields in Elche (Elx) were planted by them as a food resource for their maritime trips) and the Cartaginese (although one could say they're part of the "north Africans").
                                                    I'm not sure either I agree with you assertion of the mixture with the Moors and Jews. The mixture was rare, for religious, not race reasons.
                                                    The Moors (who weren't that many to start with) did not take in converts, simply beacause christians paid more taxes. As for Jews, it is a well known fact that they do not proselytise and you are only Jewish because your mother was Jewish. This is why it was easy for the Catholic Kings to root out Muslims and Jews in 1492; had they been mixed within the general population, it would have been impossible.
                                                    This of course does not mean 100% separation, just that mixing was so small than it would probably be impossible to trace nowadays.

                                                    Sorry if I've been a bit long on this one, but the Basque can never be taken for granted ;-)))

                                                    Denis GLENARD








                                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                  • faltin2001
                                                    ... Spain ... precise and call it castilian, as there are many other languages in Spain. ... basques/castilians at the beginning of the 2nd millenium, hence
                                                    Message 25 of 28 , Jun 4, 2004
                                                      --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "Denis Glenard" <denisglenard@y...>
                                                      wrote:
                                                      > Hi Dirk,
                                                      > Hi everyone,
                                                      >
                                                      > I'm not a scholar in these things, but there are a couple points
                                                      from your previous Emails I'd like to press here:
                                                      >
                                                      > "Dirk:
                                                      > I doubt that this is correct to be honest. The Roman period in
                                                      Spain
                                                      > is very important and Spanish, as a romanic language is a direct
                                                      > result."
                                                      >
                                                      > Spanish is definitely a romance language. We should perhaps be very
                                                      precise and call it castilian, as there are many other languages in
                                                      Spain.
                                                      > Castilian is only a romance dialect, mainly spoken by the southern
                                                      basques/castilians at the beginning of the 2nd millenium, hence the
                                                      pronunciation of modern "spanish" is derived from basque (that's why
                                                      they "sound" the same). The fact that the Reconquista was undertaken
                                                      from the northern territories, including the Basque Country, helped
                                                      impose this dialect as the main one in the kingdom, although many
                                                      others were and still are spoken locally (whether these are languages
                                                      or dialects is not relevant here, there are many battles going around
                                                      this, quite a few of them political).



                                                      Hi Dennis,

                                                      thanks for elaborating the point. This is exactly what I thought as
                                                      well. Thus, Spanish is a Romanic language of course and Spanish is
                                                      due to the Roman presence in Spain.






                                                      >
                                                      > The Iberian language, the language spoken before the Roman invasion
                                                      of Spain, is quite well known. It has it's own alphabet and although
                                                      some of it is still not understood, progress is made every year.
                                                      >


                                                      Dirk:
                                                      Yes, an intesting alphabet too which bears casual similarity with
                                                      Germanic runes, although it has nothing to do with Runes.





                                                      > Modern Spanish language is therefore made of bits and pieces taken
                                                      from the languages spoken by it's invaders and original inhabitants,
                                                      Celts, Iberians, Basque, Goths, Moors, etc. in varyiing degrees,
                                                      obviously.



                                                      Dirk:
                                                      Yep, but nontheless Spanish is clearly recognisable a Romanic
                                                      language it is infact so close to Italian that Italian often claim to
                                                      understand Spanish without any prior study.







                                                      >
                                                      > Dirk, you state in your other Email : "modern Spaniards (...)
                                                      include a
                                                      > rich mixure of ethnic groups including people like Celt-Iberians,
                                                      > Romans, Greeks, North Africans, Jews and of course Germanics."
                                                      >
                                                      > I resent your leaving out the Basque, who were there before almost
                                                      all of the other ethnic groups, who have fought every battle to free
                                                      Spain from every kind of invader.



                                                      Dirk:
                                                      True, I just foregot the Basques. In fact, I probably foregot a few
                                                      more other groups and I did not claim to have presented a
                                                      comprehensive list. The Basques are however, more important and
                                                      should not be left out.







                                                      Denis:
                                                      You also leave out the Phoenicians (the palm fields in Elche (Elx)
                                                      were planted by them as a food resource for their maritime trips) and
                                                      the Cartaginese (although one could say they're part of the "north
                                                      Africans").


                                                      Dirk:
                                                      As I said the list was not meant to include all.




                                                      Denis:
                                                      > I'm not sure either I agree with you assertion of the mixture with
                                                      the Moors and Jews. The mixture was rare, for religious, not race
                                                      reasons.




                                                      Dirk:
                                                      We certainly know that Visigoths and Moors intermarried at the
                                                      highest levels of society. Many Spanish Jews converted to Catholicsim
                                                      thus removing the religious barrier. Spain traditionally had a very
                                                      strong Jewish population and I guess a lot of intermarriage took
                                                      place over time, but I cannot be certain.








                                                      Denis:
                                                      > The Moors (who weren't that many to start with) did not take in
                                                      converts, simply beacause christians paid more taxes.





                                                      As I said we know that the Moslem elite married with Visigothic
                                                      elites. So the barrier cannot have been too high. Also, I included
                                                      the Berbers with the actual Arabs.






                                                      Denis:
                                                      As for Jews, it is a well known fact that they do not proselytise and
                                                      you are only Jewish because your mother was Jewish. This is why it
                                                      was easy for the Catholic Kings to root out Muslims and Jews in 1492;
                                                      had they been mixed within the general population, it would have been
                                                      impossible.



                                                      Dirk
                                                      That is probably correct, but we are discussing ethnic (non-
                                                      religious) backgrounds. Thus, many Spanish Jews converted to
                                                      Catholicism (I think there was even a special name for them) and
                                                      those will to a large extend have been absorbed into the modern
                                                      Spanish population.






                                                      > This of course does not mean 100% separation, just that mixing was
                                                      so small than it would probably be impossible to trace nowadays.


                                                      Dirk:
                                                      That might be the case, but this is probably also true for the
                                                      Visigothic input.




                                                      >
                                                      > Sorry if I've been a bit long on this one, but the Basque can never
                                                      be taken for granted ;-)))
                                                      >



                                                      Newer research suggests that the Basques may have played a much
                                                      bigger role in holding of the Moslems from the North than was
                                                      traditionally acknowledged.

                                                      Cheers
                                                      Dirk
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