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Map of the Germanic (Gothic?) place-names in Poland

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  • galadhorn
    Here (http://www.elvish.org/gwaith/graphics/germania_low.jpg) I have published a map made by me (using the maps: Germanic place-names from Z. Babik s The
    Message 1 of 4 , Nov 3, 2003
      Here (http://www.elvish.org/gwaith/graphics/germania_low.jpg) I have
      published a map made by me (using the maps: "Germanic place-names"
      from Z. Babik's "The Oldest Place-name Stratum in Today's Poland"
      (Cracow 2001) and "Archeological cultures in today's Poland in the
      Late Roman period - 3-4 C." from Kaczanowski, Kozlowski's "The
      Oldest History of the Land of Today's Poland") which shows the
      Germanic place-names in the teritory which in the antiquity was
      populated by the Goths and Gepids (Wielbark Culture).

      I would like to hear your opinion about this map. I have tried to
      reconstruct the Germanic forms of the names (according to Babik's
      book and to the newest Polish research). Babik ennumerates 23 Pre-
      Slavic Germanic place-names in Poland. I will add the Silesian names
      soon.

      Reikhardus
    • Егоров Владимир
      *** Hi Reikhardus! I share, to a certain extent, Ingemar s raptures regarding your
      Message 2 of 4 , Nov 4, 2003
        ***<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />



        Hi Reikhardus!



        I share, to a certain extent, Ingemar's raptures regarding
        your map. The idea itself is praiseworthy. I hope that
        your joined, with Ingemar, efforts will enrich the map
        in the future.



        Nevertheless, I would like to draw your attention
        to some dubious premises on the map.



        1) pelta<ful?o. There was the word 'pelta' in old Baltic
        meaning bog, morass, swamp, marsh. Necessity to attract
        'ful?o' is more than questionable.



        2) szkwa<struko and skrwa<struko. First, both derivations
        look strained. Second, why do you obtain two different
        Polish derivatives from the same conjectural Gothic source?
        Third, there are numerous toponyms and hydronyms with
        postpositional '-va' on the ancient Baltic territory
        (including modern Russian Plane).



        So, all this seems as if you would put onto your map
        a few old Baltic names.



        Best regards,

        Vladimir



        -----Original Message-----
        From: galadhorn [mailto:galadhorn@...]
        Sent: Monday, November 03, 2003 7:17 PM
        To: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [gothic-l] Map of the Germanic (Gothic?) place-names in Poland


        Here ( http://www.elvish.org/gwaith/graphics/germania_low.jpg) I have
        published a map made by me (using the maps: "Germanic place-names"
        from Z. Babik's "The Oldest Place-name Stratum in Today's Poland"
        (Cracow 2001) and "Archeological cultures in today's Poland in the
        Late Roman period - 3-4 C." from Kaczanowski, Kozlowski's "The
        Oldest History of the Land of Today's Poland") which shows the
        Germanic place-names in the teritory which in the antiquity was
        populated by the Goths and Gepids (Wielbark Culture).

        I would like to hear your opinion about this map. I have tried to
        reconstruct the Germanic forms of the names (according to Babik's
        book and to the newest Polish research). Babik ennumerates 23 Pre-
        Slavic Germanic place-names in Poland. I will add the Silesian names
        soon.

        Reikhardus



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      • llama_nom
        Hi Reikhardus, Two of the names on this map are said to come from a Germanic *trulling-. I wonder if there is any connection with the nickname trouli which
        Message 3 of 4 , Jan 16, 2004
          Hi Reikhardus,

          Two of the names on this map are said to come from a Germanic
          *trulling-. I wonder if there is any connection with the
          nickname "trouli" which Olympiodorus claims was what the Vandals
          called the Goths after 416. According to Olympiodorus (summarised by
          Photius), this was was derogatory term deriving from the Latin
          word "trula", a measure of grain. In 416 the Visigoths were
          blockaded in Taragonne, and were forced to the pay exorbitant price
          of one aureus to the Vandals for a trula of wheat. But maybe this
          was a folk-etymology, or a scholarly explanation of a name that
          already existed?

          Of the *trulling- place names, one appears in the Wielbark area,
          associated with the Goths, and the other in the Przeworsk area,
          perhaps representing the Vandals or their precursors - though the
          boundary between the two changed over time, so I'm not sure whether
          too much can be read into that.

          I seem to remember reading a discussion on this list a long time ago
          about the Scandinavian word 'troll', and its possible relation to
          Polish place names (I'm afraid I can't find it now), but I don't
          thing this can be the case here, as the vowel is different (troll
          would come from an earlier *trallu).

          As for the other names: *greudung- looks very similar to *Griutingos,
          a famous Gothic tribe, appearing in Latin as the Greutingi, and in
          Old Norse as Grytinga (genitive plural, long /y/).

          *widung- might contain the same root as Wulfila's ga-widan "to join
          together"; could *wilthj- be related to Gothic wiltheis "wild"?
          *baki- makes sense as a cognate of the English 'beck', German 'Bach' -
          suggesting a Gothic i-stem *baks.

          Does anyone have any idea about the others? One that puzzled me was
          Goplo (with the Polish line through the /l/), which is matched to a
          Germanic *gathel (the /th/ here being a thorn symbol on the map). Is
          this a mistake?

          I share Vladimir's doubts about Pelta/*fultho. Regarding the two
          different forms supposedly derived from *struko: Maybe these reflect
          different Slavonic (or Baltic?) dialects. If this derivation is
          genuine, the first syllable could have been lost due to being
          unstressed (cf. Czech sklo, as opposed to Russian stiklo, Old
          Prussian stiklo, Gothic stikls). But I don't know enough about
          Polish etymology to make an informed judgement on this.

          That said, the map is very intriguing and I look forward to seeing
          the Silesian names. Do either of the books offer meanings for these
          place names?

          Llama Nom


          --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "galadhorn" <galadhorn@i...> wrote:
          > Here (http://www.elvish.org/gwaith/graphics/germania_low.jpg) I
          have
          > published a map made by me (using the maps: "Germanic place-names"
          > from Z. Babik's "The Oldest Place-name Stratum in Today's Poland"
          > (Cracow 2001) and "Archeological cultures in today's Poland in the
          > Late Roman period - 3-4 C." from Kaczanowski, Kozlowski's "The
          > Oldest History of the Land of Today's Poland") which shows the
          > Germanic place-names in the teritory which in the antiquity was
          > populated by the Goths and Gepids (Wielbark Culture).
          >
          > I would like to hear your opinion about this map. I have tried to
          > reconstruct the Germanic forms of the names (according to Babik's
          > book and to the newest Polish research). Babik ennumerates 23 Pre-
          > Slavic Germanic place-names in Poland. I will add the Silesian
          names
          > soon.
          >
          > Reikhardus
        • llama_nom
          RE: my earlier message, 1. goplo/gapel - My applogies! I ve just checked again and I see that I d copied it down wrong and mistaken the /p/ for a thorn. Still,
          Message 4 of 4 , Jan 16, 2004
            RE: my earlier message,

            1. goplo/gapel - My applogies! I've just checked again and I see
            that I'd copied it down wrong and mistaken the /p/ for a thorn.
            Still, /p/ is unusual in Germanic and often indicates a borrowed
            word, so I'd be curious to know what this root means.

            2. Gerhard Koebler gives two Latin forms for Gothic *Griutingos,
            namely Greotingi and Greutungi. If this is indeed the origin of the
            Grudzadz, it would suggest that the tribal name is older than is
            generally thought, since the usual explanation is that it
            signifies "steppe-dwellers" (from *Griut 'stone, grit, gravel,
            sand'), i.e. those Goths living on the north shore of the Black Sea,
            as distinct from the other major Gothic tribe/confederation, the
            Tervingi "forest-dwellers". This theory is given in Gordon &
            Taylor "An Introduction to Old Norse".

            In Peter Heather's "The Goths", the graves of the Chernjakhov
            culture are lined with stone, perhaps due to the lack of available
            timber, while those of the more northerly Wielbark culture are lined
            with wood.

            Llama Nom


            --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "galadhorn" <galadhorn@i...> wrote:
            > Here (http://www.elvish.org/gwaith/graphics/germania_low.jpg) I
            have
            > published a map made by me (using the maps: "Germanic place-names"
            > from Z. Babik's "The Oldest Place-name Stratum in Today's Poland"
            > (Cracow 2001) and "Archeological cultures in today's Poland in the
            > Late Roman period - 3-4 C." from Kaczanowski, Kozlowski's "The
            > Oldest History of the Land of Today's Poland") which shows the
            > Germanic place-names in the teritory which in the antiquity was
            > populated by the Goths and Gepids (Wielbark Culture).
            >
            > I would like to hear your opinion about this map. I have tried to
            > reconstruct the Germanic forms of the names (according to Babik's
            > book and to the newest Polish research). Babik ennumerates 23 Pre-
            > Slavic Germanic place-names in Poland. I will add the Silesian
            names
            > soon.
            >
            > Reikhardus
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