Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

RE: [gothic-l] Re: Carpathians and Croatians

Expand Messages
  • Егоров Владимир
    Hi Francisc! Thank you for your exhaustive comments making the matter more precise
    Message 1 of 8 , Aug 24 11:13 PM
      Hi Francisc!<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />



      Thank you for your exhaustive comments making
      the matter more precise to me. I'm not very
      experienced in the legal Gothic history,
      and my suppositions are more intuitive (and
      maybe naive) than scientific and well grounded.
      But I still can not get rid from a feeling
      that the contraposition of the East Goths
      (Greutungi) and West Goths (Tervingi) might
      be extended not only to the Slavic tribes
      'Polyane'/'Drevlyane' of the Russian Original
      Chronicle but to the Serbs/Croats as well.
      Perhaps I am wrong but I do not give up and
      keep looking for proper arguments.



      In this connection, could you help me in
      a particular problem regarding Illyric languages,
      the Geto-Dacian language specifically. Derivation
      of the ethnonym 'Terving' (i.e. the stem 'terv')
      from the Geto-Dacian language, interesting by
      itself, would have far-reaching consequences.



      Regarding my first name and not rejecting your
      conventional interpretation based on transliterating
      'Vladi-' as 'Walda-', I should note that some
      Hungarian and old Greek chronicles transliterated
      'Vladimir' as 'Lodomer'/'Lodimer'. The Hungarians
      and Greeks were closer to Kiev of the 10/11th centuries,
      and trusting to them we have to derive 'Vlad' from old
      Germanic 'Hloed(r)' (later German 'Lotar').



      Vladimir



      **********







      -----Original Message-----
      From: Francisc Czobor [mailto:fericzobor@...]
      Sent: Friday, August 22, 2003 3:58 PM
      To: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [gothic-l] Re: Carpathians and Croatians


      Hi, Vladimir!
      (BTW, in Gothic your name would be *Waldamers or *Waldamereis)

      The Gothi Minores ("Lesser Goths") represent indeed a branch of the
      West Goths, but not their mainstream.
      In the year 348 A.D., when the West Goths still lived north of Danube
      (in Dacia), bishop Wulfila had to flee south of Danube because of the
      persecutions from the West Gothic leader Athanaric. He didn't leave
      alone, but was followed by a number of Christianized West Goths who
      settled in the Roman province Moesia Inferior (near Nicopolis), in NE
      of today's Bulgaria. The mainstream of the West Goths crossed the
      Danube in 376 A.D. after their defeat by the Huns and were allowed by
      Emperor Valens to settle in the Province Thracia (which means rather
      the southern part of today's Bulgaria than Serbia). In the next year
      the Thracian West Goths rebelled against the Roman administration
      because of bad treatment and destroyed the Roman army in the battle
      of Adrianopolis (August 9, 378), were the Emperor Valens himself was
      killed. Later they moved westward, first (already under Alaric) in
      the Province Illyricum (which indeed is superposed partially with
      modern Serbia), then in Italy, then South Gaul, and finally Spain.
      But all these events didn't regard the more peaceful Gothi Minores.
      They remained in Moesia Inferior and, according to the German
      historian Walahfrid Strabo, Gothic was still used in his time (9th
      century) in some churches in the region of Lower Danube, in the
      neighborhood of Tomi (now Constanta in Dobrudja, Romania).

      I can read Russian and have read the articles of Shchukin in the
      links provided by you. Indeed, he believes that the Bastarnae were
      neither Celtic nor Germanic, nor something between Celtic and
      Germanic, but possibly an Indo-European branch for itself: "The
      controversy on the ethnic character of the Bastarnae doesn't make
      sense. The Bastarnae were Bastarnic". Interestingly, he mentions that
      from the 5 known Bastarnic words, two are Germanic, and three cannot
      be assigned to any known language.
      However, Shchukin doesn't consider that the Slavic languages descend
      from Bastarnic (whatever this could be), but that Bastarnic acted as
      a substratum for Slavic, helping its individualization from the Balto-
      Slavic language continuum.

      Francisc





      Yahoo! Groups Sponsor

      ADVERTISEMENT
      <http://rd.yahoo.com/M=259538.3760361.5018013.1261774/D=egroupweb/S=1705297328:HM/A=1712983/R=0/SIG=11u38u3s2/*http://hits.411web.com/cgi-bin/hit?page=1374-105951838331032> click here
      <http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=259538.3760361.5018013.1261774/D=egroupmail/S=:HM/A=1712983/rand=809826142>

      You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a blank email to <gothic-l-unsubscribe@egroups.com>.

      Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service.




      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Francisc Czobor
      Dear Vladimir, Very interesting indeed, because Greutungi/Tervingi represent the opposition plain dwellers / wood dwellers , exactly like Polyane/Drevlyane .
      Message 2 of 8 , Aug 25 1:47 AM
        Dear Vladimir,

        Very interesting indeed, because Greutungi/Tervingi represent the
        opposition "plain dwellers / wood dwellers", exactly
        like "Polyane/Drevlyane". About the opposition "Serbs/Croats"
        (Srb/Hrvat), you don't have to forget that these are old Slavic
        tribal names, found also elsewhere in the Slavic world ("Serbs" are
        also the Sorabs, or Lusacian Serbs, still living in NE Germany,
        while "Croats" were also the White Croats, who lived approx. where is
        now the Transcarpatian Region [Zakarpatskaya Oblast'] of Ukraine).
        The Illyric languages represent a separate branch of Indo-European.
        In the past, some scholars regarded them as closely related to
        Thracian, speaking about a "Thraco-Illyric" language group, but today
        they are regarded rather as different branches of Indo-European, the
        Thracian languages (Geto-Daco-Moesian, Southern Thracian, and Mysian)
        being "satem" languages, most closely related probably to Phrygian,
        while the Illyric languages where apparently rather "centum"
        languages.
        Regarding the origin of the name "Tervingi", the most accepted
        interpretation (found also in Köbler's comprehensive "Gotisches
        Wörterbuch") is "woodlanders, inabitants of the woods", the root terv-
        being considered a variant of the Gothic word "triu" = "wood, stick"
        (cognate, for instance, with the English word "tree" and, on Indo-
        European level, for instance with the Greek "drus" = "oak", and with
        Russian "derevo").
        I tried to gothicize your first name as "Waldamer(ei)s", because once
        I have read that "Vladimir" comes from "Valdemar", and the last would
        be in Gothic "Waldamer(ei)s". The form "Lodomer" for "Vladimir" as a
        place name is found indeed in the Hungarian chronicle "Gesta
        Hungarorum", with anonymous author (called "Anonymus"), of the
        11/12th century, but describing events of the 9/10th century. I
        thought that "Lodomer" is an Old Hungarian deformation of "Vladimir"
        (probably in the variant "Volodimir/Wlodimir") rather than the
        correct form for "Vladimir". This supposition is supported also by
        the fact that "Vladimir" became in Lithuanian "Valdimieras", with the
        significance "ruler, king" (exactly like the Latin proper name Caesar
        becoming "kaisar" in Gothic, "Kaiser" in German, and "tzar" in
        Slavic, all meaning "emperor", or the Frankish proper name Karl
        becoming korol'/krol/kral' in Slavic languages, meaning "king"). But
        in case you're right, than the Gothic form of "Vladimir" would
        be "Hlothamer(ei)s".

        Francisc


        --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, åÇÏÒÏ× ÷ÌÁÄÉÍÉÒ <vegorov@i...> wrote:
        > Hi Francisc!<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-
        com:office:office" />
        >
        >
        >
        > Thank you for your exhaustive comments making
        > the matter more precise to me. I'm not very
        > experienced in the legal Gothic history,
        > and my suppositions are more intuitive (and
        > maybe naive) than scientific and well grounded.
        > But I still can not get rid from a feeling
        > that the contraposition of the East Goths
        > (Greutungi) and West Goths (Tervingi) might
        > be extended not only to the Slavic tribes
        > 'Polyane'/'Drevlyane' of the Russian Original
        > Chronicle but to the Serbs/Croats as well.
        > Perhaps I am wrong but I do not give up and
        > keep looking for proper arguments.
        >
        >
        >
        > In this connection, could you help me in
        > a particular problem regarding Illyric languages,
        > the Geto-Dacian language specifically. Derivation
        > of the ethnonym 'Terving' (i.e. the stem 'terv')
        > from the Geto-Dacian language, interesting by
        > itself, would have far-reaching consequences.
        >
        >
        >
        > Regarding my first name and not rejecting your
        > conventional interpretation based on transliterating
        > 'Vladi-' as 'Walda-', I should note that some
        > Hungarian and old Greek chronicles transliterated
        > 'Vladimir' as 'Lodomer'/'Lodimer'. The Hungarians
        > and Greeks were closer to Kiev of the 10/11th centuries,
        > and trusting to them we have to derive 'Vlad' from old
        > Germanic 'Hloed(r)' (later German 'Lotar').
        >
        >
        >
        > Vladimir
        >
        >
        >
        > **********
        >
      Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.