RE: [gothic-l] Re: Carpathians and Croatians
- Hi Francisc!<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />
Thank you for your exhaustive comments making
the matter more precise to me. I'm not very
experienced in the legal Gothic history,
and my suppositions are more intuitive (and
maybe naive) than scientific and well grounded.
But I still can not get rid from a feeling
that the contraposition of the East Goths
(Greutungi) and West Goths (Tervingi) might
be extended not only to the Slavic tribes
'Polyane'/'Drevlyane' of the Russian Original
Chronicle but to the Serbs/Croats as well.
Perhaps I am wrong but I do not give up and
keep looking for proper arguments.
In this connection, could you help me in
a particular problem regarding Illyric languages,
the Geto-Dacian language specifically. Derivation
of the ethnonym 'Terving' (i.e. the stem 'terv')
from the Geto-Dacian language, interesting by
itself, would have far-reaching consequences.
Regarding my first name and not rejecting your
conventional interpretation based on transliterating
'Vladi-' as 'Walda-', I should note that some
Hungarian and old Greek chronicles transliterated
'Vladimir' as 'Lodomer'/'Lodimer'. The Hungarians
and Greeks were closer to Kiev of the 10/11th centuries,
and trusting to them we have to derive 'Vlad' from old
Germanic 'Hloed(r)' (later German 'Lotar').
From: Francisc Czobor [mailto:fericzobor@...]
Sent: Friday, August 22, 2003 3:58 PM
Subject: [gothic-l] Re: Carpathians and Croatians
(BTW, in Gothic your name would be *Waldamers or *Waldamereis)
The Gothi Minores ("Lesser Goths") represent indeed a branch of the
West Goths, but not their mainstream.
In the year 348 A.D., when the West Goths still lived north of Danube
(in Dacia), bishop Wulfila had to flee south of Danube because of the
persecutions from the West Gothic leader Athanaric. He didn't leave
alone, but was followed by a number of Christianized West Goths who
settled in the Roman province Moesia Inferior (near Nicopolis), in NE
of today's Bulgaria. The mainstream of the West Goths crossed the
Danube in 376 A.D. after their defeat by the Huns and were allowed by
Emperor Valens to settle in the Province Thracia (which means rather
the southern part of today's Bulgaria than Serbia). In the next year
the Thracian West Goths rebelled against the Roman administration
because of bad treatment and destroyed the Roman army in the battle
of Adrianopolis (August 9, 378), were the Emperor Valens himself was
killed. Later they moved westward, first (already under Alaric) in
the Province Illyricum (which indeed is superposed partially with
modern Serbia), then in Italy, then South Gaul, and finally Spain.
But all these events didn't regard the more peaceful Gothi Minores.
They remained in Moesia Inferior and, according to the German
historian Walahfrid Strabo, Gothic was still used in his time (9th
century) in some churches in the region of Lower Danube, in the
neighborhood of Tomi (now Constanta in Dobrudja, Romania).
I can read Russian and have read the articles of Shchukin in the
links provided by you. Indeed, he believes that the Bastarnae were
neither Celtic nor Germanic, nor something between Celtic and
Germanic, but possibly an Indo-European branch for itself: "The
controversy on the ethnic character of the Bastarnae doesn't make
sense. The Bastarnae were Bastarnic". Interestingly, he mentions that
from the 5 known Bastarnic words, two are Germanic, and three cannot
be assigned to any known language.
However, Shchukin doesn't consider that the Slavic languages descend
from Bastarnic (whatever this could be), but that Bastarnic acted as
a substratum for Slavic, helping its individualization from the Balto-
Slavic language continuum.
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- Dear Vladimir,
Very interesting indeed, because Greutungi/Tervingi represent the
opposition "plain dwellers / wood dwellers", exactly
like "Polyane/Drevlyane". About the opposition "Serbs/Croats"
(Srb/Hrvat), you don't have to forget that these are old Slavic
tribal names, found also elsewhere in the Slavic world ("Serbs" are
also the Sorabs, or Lusacian Serbs, still living in NE Germany,
while "Croats" were also the White Croats, who lived approx. where is
now the Transcarpatian Region [Zakarpatskaya Oblast'] of Ukraine).
The Illyric languages represent a separate branch of Indo-European.
In the past, some scholars regarded them as closely related to
Thracian, speaking about a "Thraco-Illyric" language group, but today
they are regarded rather as different branches of Indo-European, the
Thracian languages (Geto-Daco-Moesian, Southern Thracian, and Mysian)
being "satem" languages, most closely related probably to Phrygian,
while the Illyric languages where apparently rather "centum"
Regarding the origin of the name "Tervingi", the most accepted
interpretation (found also in Köbler's comprehensive "Gotisches
Wörterbuch") is "woodlanders, inabitants of the woods", the root terv-
being considered a variant of the Gothic word "triu" = "wood, stick"
(cognate, for instance, with the English word "tree" and, on Indo-
European level, for instance with the Greek "drus" = "oak", and with
I tried to gothicize your first name as "Waldamer(ei)s", because once
I have read that "Vladimir" comes from "Valdemar", and the last would
be in Gothic "Waldamer(ei)s". The form "Lodomer" for "Vladimir" as a
place name is found indeed in the Hungarian chronicle "Gesta
Hungarorum", with anonymous author (called "Anonymus"), of the
11/12th century, but describing events of the 9/10th century. I
thought that "Lodomer" is an Old Hungarian deformation of "Vladimir"
(probably in the variant "Volodimir/Wlodimir") rather than the
correct form for "Vladimir". This supposition is supported also by
the fact that "Vladimir" became in Lithuanian "Valdimieras", with the
significance "ruler, king" (exactly like the Latin proper name Caesar
becoming "kaisar" in Gothic, "Kaiser" in German, and "tzar" in
Slavic, all meaning "emperor", or the Frankish proper name Karl
becoming korol'/krol/kral' in Slavic languages, meaning "king"). But
in case you're right, than the Gothic form of "Vladimir" would
--- In email@example.com, åÇÏÒÏ× ÷ÌÁÄÉÍÉÒ <vegorov@i...> wrote:
> Hi Francisc!<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-
> Thank you for your exhaustive comments making
> the matter more precise to me. I'm not very
> experienced in the legal Gothic history,
> and my suppositions are more intuitive (and
> maybe naive) than scientific and well grounded.
> But I still can not get rid from a feeling
> that the contraposition of the East Goths
> (Greutungi) and West Goths (Tervingi) might
> be extended not only to the Slavic tribes
> 'Polyane'/'Drevlyane' of the Russian Original
> Chronicle but to the Serbs/Croats as well.
> Perhaps I am wrong but I do not give up and
> keep looking for proper arguments.
> In this connection, could you help me in
> a particular problem regarding Illyric languages,
> the Geto-Dacian language specifically. Derivation
> of the ethnonym 'Terving' (i.e. the stem 'terv')
> from the Geto-Dacian language, interesting by
> itself, would have far-reaching consequences.
> Regarding my first name and not rejecting your
> conventional interpretation based on transliterating
> 'Vladi-' as 'Walda-', I should note that some
> Hungarian and old Greek chronicles transliterated
> 'Vladimir' as 'Lodomer'/'Lodimer'. The Hungarians
> and Greeks were closer to Kiev of the 10/11th centuries,
> and trusting to them we have to derive 'Vlad' from old
> Germanic 'Hloed(r)' (later German 'Lotar').