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[gothic-l] Re: Carpathians and Croatians

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  • Tore Gannholm
    Hi! I have part of Rome and the Barbarians in Central and Eastern Europe Mark B. Schukin on http://www.stavgard.com/Gotland/beowulf_/shchukin/default.htm Tore
    Message 1 of 8 , Aug 22, 2003
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      Hi!

      I have part of

      Rome and the Barbarians in Central and Eastern Europe
      Mark B. Schukin

      on

      http://www.stavgard.com/Gotland/beowulf_/shchukin/default.htm

      Tore


      >Hi, Vladimir!
      >(BTW, in Gothic your name would be *Waldamers or *Waldamereis)
      >
      >The Gothi Minores ("Lesser Goths") represent indeed a branch of the
      >West Goths, but not their mainstream.
      >In the year 348 A.D., when the West Goths still lived north of Danube
      >(in Dacia), bishop Wulfila had to flee south of Danube because of the
      >persecutions from the West Gothic leader Athanaric. He didn't leave
      >alone, but was followed by a number of Christianized West Goths who
      >settled in the Roman province Moesia Inferior (near Nicopolis), in NE
      >of today's Bulgaria. The mainstream of the West Goths crossed the
      >Danube in 376 A.D. after their defeat by the Huns and were allowed by
      >Emperor Valens to settle in the Province Thracia (which means rather
      >the southern part of today's Bulgaria than Serbia). In the next year
      >the Thracian West Goths rebelled against the Roman administration
      >because of bad treatment and destroyed the Roman army in the battle
      >of Adrianopolis (August 9, 378), were the Emperor Valens himself was
      >killed. Later they moved westward, first (already under Alaric) in
      >the Province Illyricum (which indeed is superposed partially with
      >modern Serbia), then in Italy, then South Gaul, and finally Spain.
      >But all these events didn't regard the more peaceful Gothi Minores.
      >They remained in Moesia Inferior and, according to the German
      >historian Walahfrid Strabo, Gothic was still used in his time (9th
      >century) in some churches in the region of Lower Danube, in the
      >neighborhood of Tomi (now Constanta in Dobrudja, Romania).
      >
      >I can read Russian and have read the articles of Shchukin in the
      >links provided by you. Indeed, he believes that the Bastarnae were
      >neither Celtic nor Germanic, nor something between Celtic and
      >Germanic, but possibly an Indo-European branch for itself: "The
      >controversy on the ethnic character of the Bastarnae doesn't make
      >sense. The Bastarnae were Bastarnic". Interestingly, he mentions that
      >from the 5 known Bastarnic words, two are Germanic, and three cannot
      >be assigned to any known language.
      >However, Shchukin doesn't consider that the Slavic languages descend
      >from Bastarnic (whatever this could be), but that Bastarnic acted as
      >a substratum for Slavic, helping its individualization from the Balto-
      >Slavic language continuum.
      >
      >Francisc
      >
      >
      >--- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, åÇÏÒÏ× ÷ÌÁÄÉÍÉÒ <vegorov@i...> wrote:
      >> Hi, Francisc!
      >>
      >> <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-
      >com:office:office" />
      >>
      >> I do not insist on belonging of the Bastarnae
      >> to either Celtic or German world. The more so
      >> since it is not very important for your hypothesis.
      >> By the way, Shchukin considered the Bastarnae as
      >> a separate ethnicity belonging to neither Celtics
      >> nor Germans. According to Shchukin, the Bastarnae
      >> were creators of the Zarubinetskaya and
      >> Poyaneshty-Lukashevka archaeological cultures,
      >> and he considered them as possible forerunners
      >> (among others) of the Slavs.
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >> (If yuo read Russian and find this of interest, see
      >>
      >> http://stratum.ant.md/05_99/articles/Sciukin/sciukin00.htm
      >>
      >> <http://www.nestor.md/Russian/Sciukin.htm>
      >http://www.nestor.md/Russian/Sciukin.htm)
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >> Saying about the Slavs under the West Goths I meant
      >> the period when the Goths started their migration
      >> to the West, i.e. the end of the 4th c., and when
      >> the Roman emperor Valentus granted to the West Goths
      >> just territories somewhere near contemporaneous Serbia.
      >> That is, the West Goths, I have said about, were,
      >> if you do not mind, your Gothi Minores. Of course,
      >> the Slavs did not accompany the Goths to Spain.
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >> The term 'Sclavini' appeared in the middle of the 6th c.
      >> (Procopius, Jordanes) for the Slavs along Danube that
      >> invaded the Roman Empire. The term 'Antes' was usually
      >> applied to the Slavic and Alanic tribes along the Black Sea.
      > > I merely supposed that if under the Hunnish pressure
      >> the West Goths brought some Slavic tribes to Danube,
      >> those tribes must have been 'Antes'. But all this is
      >> also incidentally.
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >> Vladimir
      >>
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a blank
      >email to <gothic-l-unsubscribe@egroups.com>.
      >
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      --

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Егоров Владимир
      Hi Francisc! Thank you for your exhaustive comments making the matter more precise
      Message 2 of 8 , Aug 24, 2003
      • 0 Attachment
        Hi Francisc!<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />



        Thank you for your exhaustive comments making
        the matter more precise to me. I'm not very
        experienced in the legal Gothic history,
        and my suppositions are more intuitive (and
        maybe naive) than scientific and well grounded.
        But I still can not get rid from a feeling
        that the contraposition of the East Goths
        (Greutungi) and West Goths (Tervingi) might
        be extended not only to the Slavic tribes
        'Polyane'/'Drevlyane' of the Russian Original
        Chronicle but to the Serbs/Croats as well.
        Perhaps I am wrong but I do not give up and
        keep looking for proper arguments.



        In this connection, could you help me in
        a particular problem regarding Illyric languages,
        the Geto-Dacian language specifically. Derivation
        of the ethnonym 'Terving' (i.e. the stem 'terv')
        from the Geto-Dacian language, interesting by
        itself, would have far-reaching consequences.



        Regarding my first name and not rejecting your
        conventional interpretation based on transliterating
        'Vladi-' as 'Walda-', I should note that some
        Hungarian and old Greek chronicles transliterated
        'Vladimir' as 'Lodomer'/'Lodimer'. The Hungarians
        and Greeks were closer to Kiev of the 10/11th centuries,
        and trusting to them we have to derive 'Vlad' from old
        Germanic 'Hloed(r)' (later German 'Lotar').



        Vladimir



        **********







        -----Original Message-----
        From: Francisc Czobor [mailto:fericzobor@...]
        Sent: Friday, August 22, 2003 3:58 PM
        To: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [gothic-l] Re: Carpathians and Croatians


        Hi, Vladimir!
        (BTW, in Gothic your name would be *Waldamers or *Waldamereis)

        The Gothi Minores ("Lesser Goths") represent indeed a branch of the
        West Goths, but not their mainstream.
        In the year 348 A.D., when the West Goths still lived north of Danube
        (in Dacia), bishop Wulfila had to flee south of Danube because of the
        persecutions from the West Gothic leader Athanaric. He didn't leave
        alone, but was followed by a number of Christianized West Goths who
        settled in the Roman province Moesia Inferior (near Nicopolis), in NE
        of today's Bulgaria. The mainstream of the West Goths crossed the
        Danube in 376 A.D. after their defeat by the Huns and were allowed by
        Emperor Valens to settle in the Province Thracia (which means rather
        the southern part of today's Bulgaria than Serbia). In the next year
        the Thracian West Goths rebelled against the Roman administration
        because of bad treatment and destroyed the Roman army in the battle
        of Adrianopolis (August 9, 378), were the Emperor Valens himself was
        killed. Later they moved westward, first (already under Alaric) in
        the Province Illyricum (which indeed is superposed partially with
        modern Serbia), then in Italy, then South Gaul, and finally Spain.
        But all these events didn't regard the more peaceful Gothi Minores.
        They remained in Moesia Inferior and, according to the German
        historian Walahfrid Strabo, Gothic was still used in his time (9th
        century) in some churches in the region of Lower Danube, in the
        neighborhood of Tomi (now Constanta in Dobrudja, Romania).

        I can read Russian and have read the articles of Shchukin in the
        links provided by you. Indeed, he believes that the Bastarnae were
        neither Celtic nor Germanic, nor something between Celtic and
        Germanic, but possibly an Indo-European branch for itself: "The
        controversy on the ethnic character of the Bastarnae doesn't make
        sense. The Bastarnae were Bastarnic". Interestingly, he mentions that
        from the 5 known Bastarnic words, two are Germanic, and three cannot
        be assigned to any known language.
        However, Shchukin doesn't consider that the Slavic languages descend
        from Bastarnic (whatever this could be), but that Bastarnic acted as
        a substratum for Slavic, helping its individualization from the Balto-
        Slavic language continuum.

        Francisc





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        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Francisc Czobor
        Dear Vladimir, Very interesting indeed, because Greutungi/Tervingi represent the opposition plain dwellers / wood dwellers , exactly like Polyane/Drevlyane .
        Message 3 of 8 , Aug 25, 2003
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          Dear Vladimir,

          Very interesting indeed, because Greutungi/Tervingi represent the
          opposition "plain dwellers / wood dwellers", exactly
          like "Polyane/Drevlyane". About the opposition "Serbs/Croats"
          (Srb/Hrvat), you don't have to forget that these are old Slavic
          tribal names, found also elsewhere in the Slavic world ("Serbs" are
          also the Sorabs, or Lusacian Serbs, still living in NE Germany,
          while "Croats" were also the White Croats, who lived approx. where is
          now the Transcarpatian Region [Zakarpatskaya Oblast'] of Ukraine).
          The Illyric languages represent a separate branch of Indo-European.
          In the past, some scholars regarded them as closely related to
          Thracian, speaking about a "Thraco-Illyric" language group, but today
          they are regarded rather as different branches of Indo-European, the
          Thracian languages (Geto-Daco-Moesian, Southern Thracian, and Mysian)
          being "satem" languages, most closely related probably to Phrygian,
          while the Illyric languages where apparently rather "centum"
          languages.
          Regarding the origin of the name "Tervingi", the most accepted
          interpretation (found also in Köbler's comprehensive "Gotisches
          Wörterbuch") is "woodlanders, inabitants of the woods", the root terv-
          being considered a variant of the Gothic word "triu" = "wood, stick"
          (cognate, for instance, with the English word "tree" and, on Indo-
          European level, for instance with the Greek "drus" = "oak", and with
          Russian "derevo").
          I tried to gothicize your first name as "Waldamer(ei)s", because once
          I have read that "Vladimir" comes from "Valdemar", and the last would
          be in Gothic "Waldamer(ei)s". The form "Lodomer" for "Vladimir" as a
          place name is found indeed in the Hungarian chronicle "Gesta
          Hungarorum", with anonymous author (called "Anonymus"), of the
          11/12th century, but describing events of the 9/10th century. I
          thought that "Lodomer" is an Old Hungarian deformation of "Vladimir"
          (probably in the variant "Volodimir/Wlodimir") rather than the
          correct form for "Vladimir". This supposition is supported also by
          the fact that "Vladimir" became in Lithuanian "Valdimieras", with the
          significance "ruler, king" (exactly like the Latin proper name Caesar
          becoming "kaisar" in Gothic, "Kaiser" in German, and "tzar" in
          Slavic, all meaning "emperor", or the Frankish proper name Karl
          becoming korol'/krol/kral' in Slavic languages, meaning "king"). But
          in case you're right, than the Gothic form of "Vladimir" would
          be "Hlothamer(ei)s".

          Francisc


          --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, åÇÏÒÏ× ÷ÌÁÄÉÍÉÒ <vegorov@i...> wrote:
          > Hi Francisc!<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-
          com:office:office" />
          >
          >
          >
          > Thank you for your exhaustive comments making
          > the matter more precise to me. I'm not very
          > experienced in the legal Gothic history,
          > and my suppositions are more intuitive (and
          > maybe naive) than scientific and well grounded.
          > But I still can not get rid from a feeling
          > that the contraposition of the East Goths
          > (Greutungi) and West Goths (Tervingi) might
          > be extended not only to the Slavic tribes
          > 'Polyane'/'Drevlyane' of the Russian Original
          > Chronicle but to the Serbs/Croats as well.
          > Perhaps I am wrong but I do not give up and
          > keep looking for proper arguments.
          >
          >
          >
          > In this connection, could you help me in
          > a particular problem regarding Illyric languages,
          > the Geto-Dacian language specifically. Derivation
          > of the ethnonym 'Terving' (i.e. the stem 'terv')
          > from the Geto-Dacian language, interesting by
          > itself, would have far-reaching consequences.
          >
          >
          >
          > Regarding my first name and not rejecting your
          > conventional interpretation based on transliterating
          > 'Vladi-' as 'Walda-', I should note that some
          > Hungarian and old Greek chronicles transliterated
          > 'Vladimir' as 'Lodomer'/'Lodimer'. The Hungarians
          > and Greeks were closer to Kiev of the 10/11th centuries,
          > and trusting to them we have to derive 'Vlad' from old
          > Germanic 'Hloed(r)' (later German 'Lotar').
          >
          >
          >
          > Vladimir
          >
          >
          >
          > **********
          >
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