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Re: Carpathians and Croatians

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  • Francisc Czobor
    Hi, Vladimir! (BTW, in Gothic your name would be *Waldamers or *Waldamereis) The Gothi Minores ( Lesser Goths ) represent indeed a branch of the West Goths,
    Message 1 of 8 , Aug 22, 2003
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      Hi, Vladimir!
      (BTW, in Gothic your name would be *Waldamers or *Waldamereis)

      The Gothi Minores ("Lesser Goths") represent indeed a branch of the
      West Goths, but not their mainstream.
      In the year 348 A.D., when the West Goths still lived north of Danube
      (in Dacia), bishop Wulfila had to flee south of Danube because of the
      persecutions from the West Gothic leader Athanaric. He didn't leave
      alone, but was followed by a number of Christianized West Goths who
      settled in the Roman province Moesia Inferior (near Nicopolis), in NE
      of today's Bulgaria. The mainstream of the West Goths crossed the
      Danube in 376 A.D. after their defeat by the Huns and were allowed by
      Emperor Valens to settle in the Province Thracia (which means rather
      the southern part of today's Bulgaria than Serbia). In the next year
      the Thracian West Goths rebelled against the Roman administration
      because of bad treatment and destroyed the Roman army in the battle
      of Adrianopolis (August 9, 378), were the Emperor Valens himself was
      killed. Later they moved westward, first (already under Alaric) in
      the Province Illyricum (which indeed is superposed partially with
      modern Serbia), then in Italy, then South Gaul, and finally Spain.
      But all these events didn't regard the more peaceful Gothi Minores.
      They remained in Moesia Inferior and, according to the German
      historian Walahfrid Strabo, Gothic was still used in his time (9th
      century) in some churches in the region of Lower Danube, in the
      neighborhood of Tomi (now Constanta in Dobrudja, Romania).

      I can read Russian and have read the articles of Shchukin in the
      links provided by you. Indeed, he believes that the Bastarnae were
      neither Celtic nor Germanic, nor something between Celtic and
      Germanic, but possibly an Indo-European branch for itself: "The
      controversy on the ethnic character of the Bastarnae doesn't make
      sense. The Bastarnae were Bastarnic". Interestingly, he mentions that
      from the 5 known Bastarnic words, two are Germanic, and three cannot
      be assigned to any known language.
      However, Shchukin doesn't consider that the Slavic languages descend
      from Bastarnic (whatever this could be), but that Bastarnic acted as
      a substratum for Slavic, helping its individualization from the Balto-
      Slavic language continuum.

      Francisc


      --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, åÇÏÒÏ× ÷ÌÁÄÉÍÉÒ <vegorov@i...> wrote:
      > Hi, Francisc!
      >
      > <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-
      com:office:office" />
      >
      > I do not insist on belonging of the Bastarnae
      > to either Celtic or German world. The more so
      > since it is not very important for your hypothesis.
      > By the way, Shchukin considered the Bastarnae as
      > a separate ethnicity belonging to neither Celtics
      > nor Germans. According to Shchukin, the Bastarnae
      > were creators of the Zarubinetskaya and
      > Poyaneshty-Lukashevka archaeological cultures,
      > and he considered them as possible forerunners
      > (among others) of the Slavs.
      >
      >
      >
      > (If yuo read Russian and find this of interest, see
      >
      > http://stratum.ant.md/05_99/articles/Sciukin/sciukin00.htm
      >
      > <http://www.nestor.md/Russian/Sciukin.htm>
      http://www.nestor.md/Russian/Sciukin.htm)
      >
      >
      >
      > Saying about the Slavs under the West Goths I meant
      > the period when the Goths started their migration
      > to the West, i.e. the end of the 4th c., and when
      > the Roman emperor Valentus granted to the West Goths
      > just territories somewhere near contemporaneous Serbia.
      > That is, the West Goths, I have said about, were,
      > if you do not mind, your Gothi Minores. Of course,
      > the Slavs did not accompany the Goths to Spain.
      >
      >
      >
      > The term 'Sclavini' appeared in the middle of the 6th c.
      > (Procopius, Jordanes) for the Slavs along Danube that
      > invaded the Roman Empire. The term 'Antes' was usually
      > applied to the Slavic and Alanic tribes along the Black Sea.
      > I merely supposed that if under the Hunnish pressure
      > the West Goths brought some Slavic tribes to Danube,
      > those tribes must have been 'Antes'. But all this is
      > also incidentally.
      >
      >
      >
      > Vladimir
      >
    • Tore Gannholm
      Hi! I have part of Rome and the Barbarians in Central and Eastern Europe Mark B. Schukin on http://www.stavgard.com/Gotland/beowulf_/shchukin/default.htm Tore
      Message 2 of 8 , Aug 22, 2003
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        Hi!

        I have part of

        Rome and the Barbarians in Central and Eastern Europe
        Mark B. Schukin

        on

        http://www.stavgard.com/Gotland/beowulf_/shchukin/default.htm

        Tore


        >Hi, Vladimir!
        >(BTW, in Gothic your name would be *Waldamers or *Waldamereis)
        >
        >The Gothi Minores ("Lesser Goths") represent indeed a branch of the
        >West Goths, but not their mainstream.
        >In the year 348 A.D., when the West Goths still lived north of Danube
        >(in Dacia), bishop Wulfila had to flee south of Danube because of the
        >persecutions from the West Gothic leader Athanaric. He didn't leave
        >alone, but was followed by a number of Christianized West Goths who
        >settled in the Roman province Moesia Inferior (near Nicopolis), in NE
        >of today's Bulgaria. The mainstream of the West Goths crossed the
        >Danube in 376 A.D. after their defeat by the Huns and were allowed by
        >Emperor Valens to settle in the Province Thracia (which means rather
        >the southern part of today's Bulgaria than Serbia). In the next year
        >the Thracian West Goths rebelled against the Roman administration
        >because of bad treatment and destroyed the Roman army in the battle
        >of Adrianopolis (August 9, 378), were the Emperor Valens himself was
        >killed. Later they moved westward, first (already under Alaric) in
        >the Province Illyricum (which indeed is superposed partially with
        >modern Serbia), then in Italy, then South Gaul, and finally Spain.
        >But all these events didn't regard the more peaceful Gothi Minores.
        >They remained in Moesia Inferior and, according to the German
        >historian Walahfrid Strabo, Gothic was still used in his time (9th
        >century) in some churches in the region of Lower Danube, in the
        >neighborhood of Tomi (now Constanta in Dobrudja, Romania).
        >
        >I can read Russian and have read the articles of Shchukin in the
        >links provided by you. Indeed, he believes that the Bastarnae were
        >neither Celtic nor Germanic, nor something between Celtic and
        >Germanic, but possibly an Indo-European branch for itself: "The
        >controversy on the ethnic character of the Bastarnae doesn't make
        >sense. The Bastarnae were Bastarnic". Interestingly, he mentions that
        >from the 5 known Bastarnic words, two are Germanic, and three cannot
        >be assigned to any known language.
        >However, Shchukin doesn't consider that the Slavic languages descend
        >from Bastarnic (whatever this could be), but that Bastarnic acted as
        >a substratum for Slavic, helping its individualization from the Balto-
        >Slavic language continuum.
        >
        >Francisc
        >
        >
        >--- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, åÇÏÒÏ× ÷ÌÁÄÉÍÉÒ <vegorov@i...> wrote:
        >> Hi, Francisc!
        >>
        >> <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-
        >com:office:office" />
        >>
        >> I do not insist on belonging of the Bastarnae
        >> to either Celtic or German world. The more so
        >> since it is not very important for your hypothesis.
        >> By the way, Shchukin considered the Bastarnae as
        >> a separate ethnicity belonging to neither Celtics
        >> nor Germans. According to Shchukin, the Bastarnae
        >> were creators of the Zarubinetskaya and
        >> Poyaneshty-Lukashevka archaeological cultures,
        >> and he considered them as possible forerunners
        >> (among others) of the Slavs.
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >> (If yuo read Russian and find this of interest, see
        >>
        >> http://stratum.ant.md/05_99/articles/Sciukin/sciukin00.htm
        >>
        >> <http://www.nestor.md/Russian/Sciukin.htm>
        >http://www.nestor.md/Russian/Sciukin.htm)
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >> Saying about the Slavs under the West Goths I meant
        >> the period when the Goths started their migration
        >> to the West, i.e. the end of the 4th c., and when
        >> the Roman emperor Valentus granted to the West Goths
        >> just territories somewhere near contemporaneous Serbia.
        >> That is, the West Goths, I have said about, were,
        >> if you do not mind, your Gothi Minores. Of course,
        >> the Slavs did not accompany the Goths to Spain.
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >> The term 'Sclavini' appeared in the middle of the 6th c.
        >> (Procopius, Jordanes) for the Slavs along Danube that
        >> invaded the Roman Empire. The term 'Antes' was usually
        >> applied to the Slavic and Alanic tribes along the Black Sea.
        > > I merely supposed that if under the Hunnish pressure
        >> the West Goths brought some Slavic tribes to Danube,
        >> those tribes must have been 'Antes'. But all this is
        >> also incidentally.
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >> Vladimir
        >>
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a blank
        >email to <gothic-l-unsubscribe@egroups.com>.
        >
        >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


        --

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Егоров Владимир
        Hi Francisc! Thank you for your exhaustive comments making the matter more precise
        Message 3 of 8 , Aug 24, 2003
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          Hi Francisc!<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />



          Thank you for your exhaustive comments making
          the matter more precise to me. I'm not very
          experienced in the legal Gothic history,
          and my suppositions are more intuitive (and
          maybe naive) than scientific and well grounded.
          But I still can not get rid from a feeling
          that the contraposition of the East Goths
          (Greutungi) and West Goths (Tervingi) might
          be extended not only to the Slavic tribes
          'Polyane'/'Drevlyane' of the Russian Original
          Chronicle but to the Serbs/Croats as well.
          Perhaps I am wrong but I do not give up and
          keep looking for proper arguments.



          In this connection, could you help me in
          a particular problem regarding Illyric languages,
          the Geto-Dacian language specifically. Derivation
          of the ethnonym 'Terving' (i.e. the stem 'terv')
          from the Geto-Dacian language, interesting by
          itself, would have far-reaching consequences.



          Regarding my first name and not rejecting your
          conventional interpretation based on transliterating
          'Vladi-' as 'Walda-', I should note that some
          Hungarian and old Greek chronicles transliterated
          'Vladimir' as 'Lodomer'/'Lodimer'. The Hungarians
          and Greeks were closer to Kiev of the 10/11th centuries,
          and trusting to them we have to derive 'Vlad' from old
          Germanic 'Hloed(r)' (later German 'Lotar').



          Vladimir



          **********







          -----Original Message-----
          From: Francisc Czobor [mailto:fericzobor@...]
          Sent: Friday, August 22, 2003 3:58 PM
          To: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [gothic-l] Re: Carpathians and Croatians


          Hi, Vladimir!
          (BTW, in Gothic your name would be *Waldamers or *Waldamereis)

          The Gothi Minores ("Lesser Goths") represent indeed a branch of the
          West Goths, but not their mainstream.
          In the year 348 A.D., when the West Goths still lived north of Danube
          (in Dacia), bishop Wulfila had to flee south of Danube because of the
          persecutions from the West Gothic leader Athanaric. He didn't leave
          alone, but was followed by a number of Christianized West Goths who
          settled in the Roman province Moesia Inferior (near Nicopolis), in NE
          of today's Bulgaria. The mainstream of the West Goths crossed the
          Danube in 376 A.D. after their defeat by the Huns and were allowed by
          Emperor Valens to settle in the Province Thracia (which means rather
          the southern part of today's Bulgaria than Serbia). In the next year
          the Thracian West Goths rebelled against the Roman administration
          because of bad treatment and destroyed the Roman army in the battle
          of Adrianopolis (August 9, 378), were the Emperor Valens himself was
          killed. Later they moved westward, first (already under Alaric) in
          the Province Illyricum (which indeed is superposed partially with
          modern Serbia), then in Italy, then South Gaul, and finally Spain.
          But all these events didn't regard the more peaceful Gothi Minores.
          They remained in Moesia Inferior and, according to the German
          historian Walahfrid Strabo, Gothic was still used in his time (9th
          century) in some churches in the region of Lower Danube, in the
          neighborhood of Tomi (now Constanta in Dobrudja, Romania).

          I can read Russian and have read the articles of Shchukin in the
          links provided by you. Indeed, he believes that the Bastarnae were
          neither Celtic nor Germanic, nor something between Celtic and
          Germanic, but possibly an Indo-European branch for itself: "The
          controversy on the ethnic character of the Bastarnae doesn't make
          sense. The Bastarnae were Bastarnic". Interestingly, he mentions that
          from the 5 known Bastarnic words, two are Germanic, and three cannot
          be assigned to any known language.
          However, Shchukin doesn't consider that the Slavic languages descend
          from Bastarnic (whatever this could be), but that Bastarnic acted as
          a substratum for Slavic, helping its individualization from the Balto-
          Slavic language continuum.

          Francisc





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          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Francisc Czobor
          Dear Vladimir, Very interesting indeed, because Greutungi/Tervingi represent the opposition plain dwellers / wood dwellers , exactly like Polyane/Drevlyane .
          Message 4 of 8 , Aug 25, 2003
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            Dear Vladimir,

            Very interesting indeed, because Greutungi/Tervingi represent the
            opposition "plain dwellers / wood dwellers", exactly
            like "Polyane/Drevlyane". About the opposition "Serbs/Croats"
            (Srb/Hrvat), you don't have to forget that these are old Slavic
            tribal names, found also elsewhere in the Slavic world ("Serbs" are
            also the Sorabs, or Lusacian Serbs, still living in NE Germany,
            while "Croats" were also the White Croats, who lived approx. where is
            now the Transcarpatian Region [Zakarpatskaya Oblast'] of Ukraine).
            The Illyric languages represent a separate branch of Indo-European.
            In the past, some scholars regarded them as closely related to
            Thracian, speaking about a "Thraco-Illyric" language group, but today
            they are regarded rather as different branches of Indo-European, the
            Thracian languages (Geto-Daco-Moesian, Southern Thracian, and Mysian)
            being "satem" languages, most closely related probably to Phrygian,
            while the Illyric languages where apparently rather "centum"
            languages.
            Regarding the origin of the name "Tervingi", the most accepted
            interpretation (found also in Köbler's comprehensive "Gotisches
            Wörterbuch") is "woodlanders, inabitants of the woods", the root terv-
            being considered a variant of the Gothic word "triu" = "wood, stick"
            (cognate, for instance, with the English word "tree" and, on Indo-
            European level, for instance with the Greek "drus" = "oak", and with
            Russian "derevo").
            I tried to gothicize your first name as "Waldamer(ei)s", because once
            I have read that "Vladimir" comes from "Valdemar", and the last would
            be in Gothic "Waldamer(ei)s". The form "Lodomer" for "Vladimir" as a
            place name is found indeed in the Hungarian chronicle "Gesta
            Hungarorum", with anonymous author (called "Anonymus"), of the
            11/12th century, but describing events of the 9/10th century. I
            thought that "Lodomer" is an Old Hungarian deformation of "Vladimir"
            (probably in the variant "Volodimir/Wlodimir") rather than the
            correct form for "Vladimir". This supposition is supported also by
            the fact that "Vladimir" became in Lithuanian "Valdimieras", with the
            significance "ruler, king" (exactly like the Latin proper name Caesar
            becoming "kaisar" in Gothic, "Kaiser" in German, and "tzar" in
            Slavic, all meaning "emperor", or the Frankish proper name Karl
            becoming korol'/krol/kral' in Slavic languages, meaning "king"). But
            in case you're right, than the Gothic form of "Vladimir" would
            be "Hlothamer(ei)s".

            Francisc


            --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, åÇÏÒÏ× ÷ÌÁÄÉÍÉÒ <vegorov@i...> wrote:
            > Hi Francisc!<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-
            com:office:office" />
            >
            >
            >
            > Thank you for your exhaustive comments making
            > the matter more precise to me. I'm not very
            > experienced in the legal Gothic history,
            > and my suppositions are more intuitive (and
            > maybe naive) than scientific and well grounded.
            > But I still can not get rid from a feeling
            > that the contraposition of the East Goths
            > (Greutungi) and West Goths (Tervingi) might
            > be extended not only to the Slavic tribes
            > 'Polyane'/'Drevlyane' of the Russian Original
            > Chronicle but to the Serbs/Croats as well.
            > Perhaps I am wrong but I do not give up and
            > keep looking for proper arguments.
            >
            >
            >
            > In this connection, could you help me in
            > a particular problem regarding Illyric languages,
            > the Geto-Dacian language specifically. Derivation
            > of the ethnonym 'Terving' (i.e. the stem 'terv')
            > from the Geto-Dacian language, interesting by
            > itself, would have far-reaching consequences.
            >
            >
            >
            > Regarding my first name and not rejecting your
            > conventional interpretation based on transliterating
            > 'Vladi-' as 'Walda-', I should note that some
            > Hungarian and old Greek chronicles transliterated
            > 'Vladimir' as 'Lodomer'/'Lodimer'. The Hungarians
            > and Greeks were closer to Kiev of the 10/11th centuries,
            > and trusting to them we have to derive 'Vlad' from old
            > Germanic 'Hloed(r)' (later German 'Lotar').
            >
            >
            >
            > Vladimir
            >
            >
            >
            > **********
            >
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